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Funny, the people at m LGS and I were just talking about how revoker is not very good right now. Daretti has been real good for me such far. I also continued testing against ur delver yesterday and won 6 out of 7 games in a row so I feel much better now. Continuing to tesmorrt tomorrow. Does anybody have suggestions for scary matchups they expect to see at NJ that I should be practicing for?
Can you elaborate on what exactly Daretti is doing that's making him nuts? I haven't tested but I'm curious to know why you think he's so good. Is it the repeatable looting, or reanimation, or both?Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieO
Imperial Painter is garbage at my LGS
No one owns dual lands... Burn and 10-12 forest Elves are good against Blood Moon decks I guess
Sorry Will. Imperial painter is for developed meta games. Your better off playing something very powerful like sneak and show.
Yes, I thought so...
Thanks for your confirmations though, srs
Back to ReAnimator and Show and Tell based decks for this guy I guess...
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On topic
Has anyone grinded any games yet with Daretti?
Is the 4 mana, Daze wet dream, spell piercable target worth? I haven't played magic since Commander '14
So I have been able to do some testing with Daretti and I can't say I'm in love with it. What'd I've found is that by the time he hits the table I don't have any cards in my hand. So I'm usually always deciding if I want to play the card I draw, pitch it to Daretti, etc. I feel like Chandra basically gives you more options, not to mention being able to ping off one toughness creatures. Granted, I've only tested it in tougher matchups like miracles and elves. One thing I do like about Daretti is that he lets you get past counterbalance and chalice off the void locks with his recursion. But other than that, I usually wish he was a Chandra.
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Repeatable looting really....I basically dropped back to mono red....and with active welder going, the looting is honestly that good so far. The ability to toss only one card as well has proved very good. The reanimate I have only used a few times....the couple times I hit the ultimate have been game over as well....though Koth going ultimate would of won as well...Quote:
Originally Posted by mgoldman
Sudden Shock has been very good as well.....
And yes, Painter sucks ass in an area without a lot of duals....basically game 1 of most matches you are sitting on 4-5 dead cards in your deck....
How are you playing the matchup, like what are you prioritizing? Also, how have you been boarding?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mapson
And more importantly is the guy playing UR delver against you good at it? It's important that your testing yield results that make you a better painter and not the play testing champion
I rarely get to use the welder, they always seem to have the removal before he comes online. I was thinking with Daretti his -2 ability is like a welder with haste. Would you mind posting your list?Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieO
I tested yesterday with 3 sudden shock maindeck and they were great, especially against UR Delver. Sphere of law is a house against UR delver too.
This coming Sunday is the yearly open champs and I'm going to pre-board for Cruise decks. As of late, they have been the only losses I've had in tournament match play. Call this the prediction of a UR/Esper/BUG cruise decks, burn and other aggro decks, and combo. My solutions for this type of metagame are cutting Jaya, a Top, and a Revoker for 3 maindeck Sudden Shock. It takes care of just about anything, and has favorable interactions with Jitte equiped creatures. I dropped the other Revoker to the sideboard for a Spellskite. It's about protecting the combo with all that spot removal out there. It's a sacrifice not having one or more MD revokers, but game this list is geared for game ones. In the side SFM, Batterskull, and Jitte take the place of Firebolts and an Ethersworn Canonist for a Sphere of Law. The last is a concession to some chat in this thread. I realize a big event is no time for testing, but the upside is what the deck needs to circumvent all that card advantage. Btw, I took Jack's 75 as reference to my own. Anyways, this is what I'm running, and yes I've considered going mono red. I just prefer shortcake.
1 Great Furnace
4 Mountain
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Plateau
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Lotus Petal
1 Spellskite
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyroblast
4 Grindstone
4 Blood Moon
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Sudden Shock
3 Goblin Welder
4 Imperial Painter
4 Painter's Servant
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Sensei's Divining Top
Manic Vandal is coming back in for Viashino Heretic, another preference. Sometimes you just gotta destroy something immediately. The tournament itself is capped at 120 players, with cash prizes. I miss Jaya but recently she's been a 1RR gain 3 life sorcery. Best to cut it for something new, but all these changes come with a gameplan.
SB:
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sphere of Law
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Manic Vandal
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Koth of the Hammer
1 Trinisphere
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ratchet Bomb
I was still boarding how I mentioned on the previous page (taking out the majority of the creatures for everything in my board but koth and ethersworn canonist.) My logic was that their deck is so full of removal that all I seemed to be doing was just casting creatures that had no impact on the game with the exception of painter's servant itself. Cutting jaya felt wrong but she just died constantly and bringing in manic vandal without recruiter felt odd at first but once I started to think of the card as a sorcery rather than toolbox creature it felt a lot better. I've just been playing the matchup as a super controlly deck. Sphere of Law is an absolute beating for that deck as is ensnaring bridge, especially with daretti helping make sure I don't get expensive cards/lands clogged in my hand. I was not testing against a tier one player yesterday but the guy knew what he was doing not to mention I played the deck so I pointed out anything that appeared suboptimal, today I tested against kevin jones who is hands down very good. It didn't go as well as yesterday but even the games I lost felt very good and he usually only had one out and just got sorta lucky (I say sorta because there is so much dig in that deck. He agreed that my sideboarding seemed correct and that he felt like he was in a losing spot a lot of the time there.Quote:
Originally Posted by 264505
Daretti has been good for me. I have learned to love ensnaring bridge a lot and that card makes e bridge so much better. I get missing chandra but I feel like the dig that daretti provides is phenomenal, I ulted it once which actyually ended up being what won me the game. I actually rarely use the welder ability but it is obviously good in a deck where welder is so amazing.
Removal used on Welder is less removal on painter....I'll take it any day.
Here is my list on MTGO....just trying stuff right now. I may test my R/B list again, as I always had the most success with it...the additional sideboard value it ads is worth it.
4 Painter's Servant
2 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Goblin Welder
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Grindstone
4 Blood Moon
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Lotus Petal
6 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Great Furnace
3 Sudden Shock
2 Daretti, Scrap Savant
Side
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinsphere
1 Sudden Shoock
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Manic Vandal
1 Koth of the Hammer
4 Dragon's Claw
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Ensnaring Bridge
I played yesterday: my results:
2x0 Deathblade 4-colors
1x2 Deathblade 4-colors
0x2 Belcher
2x1 Belcher
1x2 Belcher
2x0 ANT
2x1 ANT
My list:
Main deck (60 cartas)
3 City of Traitors
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Great Furnace
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Arid Mesa
4 Mountain
2 Plateau
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Goblin Welder
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Painter's Servant
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Koth of the Hammer
4 Blood Moon
3 Lotus Petal
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Grindstone
2 Enlightened Tutor
Sideboard (15 cartas)
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Manic Vandal
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Rest in Peace
1 Sphere of Law
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Lightning Bolt
@EddieO
Whats the black for?
Very similar list to what I play. Only differences in main are Chandra instead of Koth and a ratchet bomb for one recruiter. I play a very different sideboard though and I could suggest that if you want to improve your belcher matchup (or oops all spells or other turn one decks) you need to play Leyline or some other turn zero answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiago
Also, isn't sphere of law a 4cc spell? Isn't that typically the turn you die against Burn? Its effect seems fine. Just seems a little spendy.
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Turn 3 would probably be average to cast it, turn 2 definitely possible. For me it's more for UR delver. burn is practically unwinnable without dedicating tons of sb space to it. I've given up trying to plan for burn and am just hoping to avoid it in NJ.Quote:
Originally Posted by drude1
I've said it before. EVERY match I have won in tournaments has been because of spellskite. That being said it is by far our worst matchup and in a large tournament I would likely just hope to not play against it, although this may explain why we haven't seen painter putting up the numbers lately......Quote:
Originally Posted by mgoldman
Here's the list I'm going to run in side events on Friday. Any comments would be appreciated.
2 Goblin Welder
3 Imperial Recruiter
1 Magus of the Moon
4 Painter's Servant
2 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Spellskite
1 Daretti, scrap savant
4 Blood Moon
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Grindstone
3 Lotus Petal
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Sudden Shock
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 City of Traitors
1 Great Furnace
4 Mountain
2 Plateau
2 Wooded Foothills
SIDEBOARD
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Koth of the Hammer
1 Manic Vandal
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Pyroclasm
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Rest in Peace
1 Sphere of Law
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Trinisphere
@mgoldman i think its really important to put 2 thorn of amethyst in your SB. You can cast in T1 against belcher, ANT, TES, all Spells, hypergenesis... Casting this in t1 is GG against these matches.
Another thing.. I guess 2 ratchet bomb is a cool number nowadays, because there are many UR delvers, is great against miracles, DaT, belcher and TES (empty the warrens), elves..
I think I'm going to only run 1 Daretti at GP NJ, so I will potentially have one extra if anyone is trying to find one before the tournament.
Daretti seems best as a one-of after some more testing, it seems to me. In the slower match ups, I think he's good for digging and welding, but still like Koth out of the SB as a way to close the game out if the combo route gets shut down. In the faster match-ups, I'd often run into situations where I would just be +2ing without discarding or drawing anything, which is not really ideal. I prefer the 3rd Top to the 2nd Daretti, and prefer 3-1 Top-Daretti to 3-2, if only for Top's ability to let you keep potentially powerful but risky hands and help smooth out early kinks in the game plan. He's also rather expensive at 4 CMC for an ability that requires you to discard before drawing, as at that point in most games where you've found a moment to prioritize Daretti over other plays, you're mostly playing off the top of your deck (hopefully with SDT, and some sort of prison game if it's at that point).
With that said, he does two things the deck wants, and often does them well, so perhaps he's just poorly positioned in the match-ups we've been testing most.
I don't really see any place for him in the SB, as he doesn't really just win the game on his own, or specifically hose any one particular match-up, or really fight any specific problem beyond sometimes being a way to filter through your deck in neutral or winning situations.
Would bitter feud help us slow down quick decks? Like chaining recruiters so opponents think twice about attacking us?
A enchantment is quite difficult to get rid of for many decks too. Not sure if it's SB worthy
Unless I am reading this wrong, it seems that it doubles the damage you take as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by oliverpool
It also costs 5 mana. I would never want to see this in my hand against UR Delver, infect, or Burn.
If you really want more attacking power it is probably better to use some other anthem effect that isn't two sided. Most of our creatures have 1 attack anyway so +1/+1 is the same as doubling.Quote:
Originally Posted by oliverpool
But, I don't think either of these are really necessary, we can run things like Koth or Assemble the Legion (which I saw get played against Joe Lossett on stream last night, sadly he found a Counterspell) that give us the alternate win conditions that win on their own and don't require us to have a bunch of Recruiters out.
Well as with the Legacy GP last year, I feel that this year we are far enough off of peoples radars to where they are not prepared properly for their matchups against us, whether you are playing the Mono Red of Shortcake version. I have read several articles for decks today that talk about side boarding plans for various matchups and none of them talk about Painter. So I feel we can use this to our Advantage this weekend. I would like to meet some of you all from the forum if you are going to the GP I will make a post if i can on friday about where i will be hanging out between rounds and we can talk about what matchups you have seen and if you lost what maybe you could have done differently for the next time you play that matchup. Hope to see any of you all this weekend.
Bout to start the drive from Iowa in a few hours. Got to borrow the last 2 recruiters I needed so looks like it will be shortcake for me.
What are people's opinion of a 1 of dragon's claw in the SB for burn? I really would hate getting burned out of cash again. Any other stronger card people suggest? I do have a spellskite main which should hopefully help a bit as well.
1 Dragons Claw won't be enough in most cases. I feel that burn is a match-up that you either side heavily for to try and get it around 50/50 (4 Dragon's Claw or equivalent) or commit 0 cards to your sideboard and hope you don't run into it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleight
I will be heading up Friday night and after a day of testing I decided to run Shortcake for the first time in a big event. Hope to run into some of you guys up there. FWIW, I was very happy with Sphere of Law against UR Delver. I was also happy with Sudden Shock in testing because the card I was most scared of post board was Swiftspear, but I chose to run a 2/2 split with Firebolt because there should be some number of Mystic decks there.
It seems that you would much rather want sudden shock against Stoneforge decks so that you can kill a creature with an active jitte. This MU is honestly the only reason I would consider making the switch to sudden shock. Anyway, I unfortunately won't be making it to the GP so good luck to all those going. I will certainly be watching the coverage and looking for some solid representation.Quote:
Originally Posted by 264505
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Not totally true. The Dragon Stompy has quite a bit of success recently with like 2-3 top 8/16 placing recently? That has like 8 moon effects. Add to the fact that U/R delver and Miracles has blood moon in their sideboard, most decks I see these days tend to have a few basics and they fetch basics when they see a mountain or tomb in play! As such I am finding Moon and magus much weaker these days.Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenklath
The good thing is with so many dig and cruising these days, our blast becomes much more effective. Almost all three colour decks is adding blue to play cruise.
I have been play testing Dualcaster/Feldon and Daretti. At the moment, it seems like only Daretti could work. It still lacks board presence like Chandra or Koth. The digging is also clunky as it requires you to keep cards. His Ultimate almost does nothing as well which is unfortunate. So far whenever I have dualcaster, I seem to end up holding mana in the hope that I can flash it in. Also very clunky feeling in the deck. Not had much chance to see feldon so far but I been usually sideboarding it out in the 2nd and third game. That might speak to its effectiveness in our deck.
Hi.
I'm playing a modified Kapn's list (especially vexing susher in the side, and sudden shock MD). I feel it's very hard to struggle against the new darkdepth deck (the one who top8ed in Prague, the one in this forum). Do you have ideas to struggle against it ?
thanks
Dark depths? I heard blood moon is good against that! :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonk
Edit: You have MANY tools to fight this: Blood Moon, Ensnaring Bridge, Painter on Blue + Blasts (in response to, or before Stage/Depths activation). Traditionally, this is a good match-up for Imperial Painter.
Im slightly confused, Yes the Dragon Stompy Deck has had decent success lately, But i was saying that many people still dont know how to play against Painter. I have yet to find a strategy article for this week that talks about sideboard plans against Painter. I am saying that we have a chance to be in a very good position this weekend to take advantage of peoples unfamiliarity with our deck. Painter as a whole has not put up decent results as of late. Which could mean a variety of things.Quote:
Originally Posted by oliverpool
I havnt seen anyone talk about Feldon in this forum maybe i have missed it. And Well Daretti has shown promise for me in testing lately, I still do not like Chandra in the deck and i am keeping perhaps a 1/1 split of Koth and Daretti. I just havnt decided which i want to have in the Main Deck.
I personally like Daretti in the main, he is more power towards our Plan A of assembling the combo. I'm more likely to want an alternate wincon in post-board games once I start running into hate. Also I think I'm going with Jack's Assemble the Legion for the tutorability as well as surprise factor and synergy with Bridge. One downside is that it is vulnerable to Wear // Tear fuse against Miracles.Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenklath
The Assemble the Legion has been quite nice for me lately. Yes the fused Wear//Tear is an Issue but the Assemble presents a Deal with me now or lose issue for the opponent. I agree about wanting more Wincons out of the board instead of having them main board, but i am also a fan of surprise factor for game one.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirPsychoMantis
What have people decided on Ratchet Bomb vs Engineered Explosives for GP NJ? I really like the immediacy of EE in the late game but Ratchet Bomb is much better out of the graveyard against >0CMC targets. Running 3 Welder + 1 Daretti makes me want to lean towards Ratchet Bomb.
I'm going to split them. One and one. EE in shortcake offers a corner solution to a resolved counterbalance. You could even get fancy with lotus petals on 3,4, hell 5 colours. Other than that I do lean towards and have used ratchet bomb for years in painter with stellar results.
Actually the folks I speak to know there is a easy way to sideboard vs painter. Thats emrakul. It definitely slows us down and only one is needed in the SB. Good thing is that it cost quite bit. I believe its more of the cost of the card more then anything. Its good that we are still relatively under the radar. With all the U/R delvers and Dig/Cruise, I think there will be more hate cards vs them then bothering about painter. More graveyard hate might mean S&T, Reanimator and Elves(cage?) will have a tougher time. Thats all good for painter as my success rate vs these 3 decks is less then 50%.Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenklath
Are there any thoughts about adding Trinket Mage maindeck, in a Ru decklist?
Trinket of tutorable with Recruiter, he is a body that can attack or block, and can fetch not only Grinstone, but Sensei's Top, Lotus Petal, and some nice cards from sideboard like Engineering Explosives, Cage, Tormonds Crypt, Needle...
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