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Melissa DeTora featured that decklist on the mothership
The Grim Tutor got me thinking, what percentage of the time is Infernal Tutor bad?
I'm sorry if this topic has been discussed before but this deck has (or can play) a bunch of awesome high-impact 1ofs and the gameplan already involves both players being hellbent.
It is definitely easy to be hellbent is any Pox deck with cheap spells and discard outlets like smallpox and liliana.Quote:
Originally Posted by apocolyps6
I could image a common situation is that you are hellbent casting a tutor (Grim or Infernal) with an active Liliana and not enough mana to cast the tutor and what ever you searched for so you'd have to be able to plus liliana first then cast a hellbent tutor then cast what you searched for the next turn before plusing liliana again, with grim tutor you don't need to worry about that potential awkwardness. So I'd think Grim Tutor is better but that is part of why it has a price tag 25 times Infernal Tutor.
We have discussed this before and Omnistrata pointed out that tutors are not mana efficient and potentially card disadvantage, both are valid points so if we want a tutor in the deck it need to be a high enough impact play to overcome this. A good example is how high impact Crop Rotation for Tabernacle is in a GB Pox deck. Another way to justify it is to give us more versatility which as you pointed out being able to play "a bunch of awesome high-impact 1ofs"
I wish there were more local legacy events so that I could try out more of these things.
I think more of the reason this person ran the tutor is because we wanted to have the high impact permanent answers like nether void, night of Souls betrayal and chains. Having a tutor essentially gives him additional copies of whatever card is relevant. For that reason it is perfectly fine. Infernal tutor is an awkward one for sure though. In top deck wars it could give you exactly what you need when you need it. But as you said having liliana be the reason you're in that top deck war makes tutor extremely awkward.
Tutors are black mana's version of hand sculpting. They're not Brainstorm and they have higher mana costs and what really stinks is when Liliana is out and we need to have land on hand to cast what we tutored for. Otherwise, we can't use Liliana.
If you're poxing often, cause I run big pox as well as smallpox and wastelands, and Mishra's factory is punching your enemy with Cursed Scrolls, getting the mana needed to cast what you tutored becomes unlikely. The vast majority of Pox decks we see winning don't use tutors, but rather high quality permanents in order to prevent our opponent from playing. Nether Void, Ensnaring Bridge, Chains of Mephistopheles, and Liliana probably being the absolute most dangerous ones.
Tutors from what I've seen only work for the biggie combo decks. If you're going for a 20/20 Indestructible Marit Lage, you want that setup 2 turns ago. I've almost never been in a situation where I couldn't get what I needed over time. Some people run only 1-2 Nether Spirits and when i'm playing Pox, I never fail to see my one-ofs in most games [yay Bridge for stalling for time] Traditional Pox decks can't win with a tutor since we have no game winner-in-one-turn game plans.
I never have mana to cast what I've tutored anyway and that always sucks. Tutor is like a timewalk I spent money for for them! :frown:
I irritated a 12 post player yesterday.
First game i drew all four wastelands prompting my opponent to holler "-Deck check on Carl-Magnus here!" (not that we do any at the local place:-))
Next game i had to mulligan, but got a hand with wasteland and Surgical extraction. When i wasted his cloudpost, and removed them all from the game, my opponent scooped the cards in disgust:-D:-D:-D
If you're pissing someone off, then you're doing it right! Besides, a mature player accepts his weakness and moves on, but the tenacious ones fight to the death! In my local games, I usually go ahead and fight Dredge game 1 despite the impossible matchup. In a serious tourney, I scoop and save time lolz.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
I've never fought 12 post but I run Extirpate instead of Surgicals. Ah, good times.
Josh how much has your list changed since you top 8'd that SCG? Are you running DD/Thespians in your 75?
Below is pretty close to what I am playing now, My top 8 list was the last tournament before adding darkdepths. I really like my current list, I never change more than a couple cards from tournament to tournament mostly sideboard. I have thought about going back to a no dark depths build but there are not enough local events for me to be able to effectively test bigger changes like that. The post below is from Legacy Champs time frame (August?)Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
Quote:
Originally Posted by jredelstein
Dark depths was mostly a concession to avoid draws that I was getting against miracles a lot. I needed a fast clock, I think that was discussed further in this thread when I made the change.Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
I have tried surgicals in the main deck once, and am thinking of doing so again.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
If you ultimately ditched the DD Combo would you still run crop rotations main?Quote:
Originally Posted by jredelstein
I suppose, he could get wasteland, tabernacle, karakas, and maze of it. Or something else.
Maze of Ith... ah, the awesome sauce when there's 1 threat and you don't have an answer for it yet... Quick question, what in the rulings allows you to attack with a Mishra's, untap it after damage with Ith, and then use it for mana main phase 2? The card itself says prevent all damage this turn. Or was that only effective when damage used the stack way back when?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
Taking damages doesn't end the attack phase.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
So you can still use Maze of Ith once the damages are done to untap Mishra (for example).
Thus Mishra is available to produce some mana main phase 2.
No doubt there is utility, but without the ability to win out of nowhere it makes you wonder if its worth it since you already have Entomb / Loam to find your special lands and Bojuka Bog is really only the land you need at instant speed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
GB without DD is not worth it imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
It is what make it worthwhile, otherwise you could go play mono b.
Agreed. DD is what makes gb pox an alternative choice, even abrupt decay and loam aren't worth it alone. However, once you commit to crop rotation it becomes natural to include those other cards. In my limited testing of gb pox with depths it has shown itself to be leagues ahead of other win cons (worm harvest, factory, nether spirit.) The deck space required is hardly oppressive, about 6-10 cards while also providing a toolbox with bog, maze, and tabernacle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
I don't know if I agree with that. Life from the Loam allows you to cast smallpox more aggressively and create CA out of it much easier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
Crucible of Worlds is equivalent in mono-black. Cycle lands as a card advantage tool in loam pox is abysmally slow, really only worth about two of the land slots. Wasteland recursion, and land recursion post-pox/smallpox is actually more efficient with Crucible due to its one-time cost. Loam is much more mana hungry as an engine.Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
I will note that crucible also allows you to take actual draw steps as well so that you can draw actionQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
Quote:
Originally Posted by mykatdied
Cycle lands togheter with loam also let's you draw action. I will personally board out up to two loams (1 vs most decks 2 vs high tide and tes) if I think they bring in graveyard hate or if I don't think it's enough gas.
Vs Miracles for example i keep all 3 since they have a real hard time answering your lands with extra effects.
After you got raven's crime in your graveyard loam will also be action vs most decks.
I also want to point out that this is simply not true that bojuka bog is the only land to get at instant speed in my experience far from it.Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
You have everything from crux wastelands that can be needed (killing a man land, a karakas rishadan port), you can save your own lands and also many effect lands as mishra's factory and cabal pit can be very good to get at your own choosing.
My favorite is vs miracles when they play JTMS knowing I can't win with the combo and just crop rotation in response to their (usually) Jace brainstorm to fetch a mishra's with it. if you somehow get a second one in play (thespian's stage can work out in end step to copy) then you just killed 1 of their best card in the matchup.
Very true and fair enough. I too have found that vs combo I generally don't want all my loams. Although the occasional wastelock with a sphere effect can be very effective post board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Toxboy
You're working pretty hard to deal with Jace. If you're on crop rotation then I suggest vampire hexmage to compliment depths. I love having 4 in the main to deal with jaces as well as providing additional threats (I play zero factories.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Toxboy
Edit: and I still play 2 needles in the board.
If i run two Sensei's Divining Top, how many shuffle effects do i need?
I have four fetchlands in the deck
I would say the minimum is six.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
You could add an infernal tutor or 2 and crop rotations if there is green.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
I personally run dakmor salvage with top in my mono black build and I never saw a reason to dislike it. Sure occasionally a comes into play tapped land matters, but very rarely does it REALLY matter. It also gives you the ability to "draw" lands later in the game after heavy poxing. I liked it because sometimes you just don't want certain cards in a match and it helped me remove them from the deck rather than shuffling them back and possibly still finding them on top
A stable mana base, control over my draws, less self-disruption and, for creature kill, reliance shifting from pox effects to sweepers. Those changes resulted in this:
4 Bloodghast
4 bloodsoaked champion these guys are needed to facilitate poxing when bigger creatures are in play.
2 Gurmag Angler depending how testing goes this one may be upgraded to Tombstalkers
4 the rack
3 nihilith
4 Pox
4 smallpox
4 hymn to tourach
4 wrench mind
3 toxic deluge a better answer to creature threats than pox
2 sensei's divining top
2 cursed scroll a test
4 bloodstained mire
17 swamp
1 dakmor salvage
This list should let me better manage resources, especially my lands.
Liliana is excluded:cry: but her main thing is to discard cards for the rack damage. That should work better with Wrench Mind.
I may play without top if i find it interfere with play. Otoh i should have less mana problems overall and thus find it less of a drain.
would love to test it but i have to wait 10 days for the next tourney:cry:
Not sure that I can agree with dropping liliana straight up for wrench mind. Mostly because she is a constant source of discard every turn, whereas wrench can only hit when you cast it on your turn each time you draw it. But the discard 2 seems very good regardless. I would definitely try and find room for both. Since you have creatures to help with a clock you should probably not include scroll over Liliana and I would certainly cut another card to add a 3rd as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
I'm strongly considering playing Chalice of Pox next weekend. The list is based on Jason Deiss' list from Denver.
1 Nether Spirit
1 Batterskull/Vraska the Unseen
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Thoughtseize/Duress
3 Dark Ritual
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Smallpox
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Mox Diamond
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Nether Void
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Cabal Pit
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
2 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Ancient Tomb
Sideboard
1 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Engineered Plague
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pithing Needle
2 Choke
2 Diabolic Edict
Chalice of the Void is too good at 0 and/or 1 in the current meta to not include.
I'm not sure if Thoughtseize or Duress is better. Most creatures are not a problem for this deck, and I'd rather preserve life total. Thoughts? Edit: Thoughtseize is just better. Death and Taxes is one of the toughest matchups, and taking a pesky hate bear makes a big difference.
Often Grim Tutor is cast after most of the hand has been expended, and the cheaper (money and casting cost) Infernal Tutor seems superior because of no life loss and the possibility of casting the tutored card in the same turn. After a lot of testing, Infernal Tutor is definitely better.
Difficult match-ups I expect to be Burn, Goblins, Death & Taxes, and Lands, therefore I'm playing 1 Batterskull main instead of a second Cursed Scroll as a life gain source and clock. Edit: I'm trying out Vraska the Unseen as a faster clock. One of the notorious problems being Pox can't close the game fast enough. 1 additional planeswalker that is a desert twister and potential win condition is valuable. I really like Batterskull, but it's too slow to combat burn and death and taxes, so those must be approached in some other way. Vraska is a much better card for closing out grindy games.
Edit: What's the best defense against burn? I can only think Zuran Orb, Lifegift is kind of cool, but too slow. Is planting a Chalice for 1 and Chalice for 2 the only way to combat Burn?
Lands ability to make a Marit Lage end step is where Diabolic Edict makes its effect, and Leyline shuts out their Life from the Loam. Helm of Obedience is an auto include with Leyline.
What do you guys think?
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Tomb is likely better as it stays around. You don't want to cast a chalice off city and then want to play a hymn or something and not be able to use your sol land when you're sitting on urborg and Tomb likely won't deal damage to you past turn 1 chalice. If you tried a turn 2 Crucible off city and another land and that got countered then it would be rough.Quote:
Originally Posted by TTX
Remorseless Punishment. One off against Miracles?
Remorseless Punishment
"Oracle Text
Target opponent loses 5 life unless that player discards two cards or sacrifices a creature or planeswalker. Repeat this process once"
I'd prefer another copy of Chains of Mephistopheles. I don't think Remorseless Punishment is playable. I guess it's ok against Jace.
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Funny story (from MWS. Is there any other kind?) that illustrates why I play Dark Depths in gb pox. I plaued against burn, notorious as one of the worst matchups for pox in general, and I raced him game one with a turn three hexmage + depths. I was at 13 life and he couldn't kill me (I took a goblin guide with inquisition of kozilek.) I drew 2 extra lands from his other guide he played.
"You're cheating. Fuck off" were his last words before signing out. God I love pissing off scrubs.
Regarding the new five mana spell, pox is probably the hardest deck to incorporate this. Smallpox, Pox, and wasteland all keep you at around 2-3 functional mana during a game. I feel even one copy is dangerous. Hymn to tourach is just infinitely more playable, and if you look closely, this card doesn't even do as much as Smallpox. Without a fast clock the lifeloss is negligable, and other disruption is more efficient.
EDIT: at four mana this card would have been playable. Against some decks that use their life total strongly as a resource this could be difficult to play around on turn 2 with a dark ritual.
I see it doing service when in top deck mode vs grindy decks. At that time i often have the mana i need.
Still, i am waiting for something better.
I was out of town over the holiday, I will try to answer the questions that came up in the last 2 weeks, if I missed something let me know.
I played Crop Rotation in my sideboard when I made Top 8 of SCG Legacy Open, as many of you pointed out Bojuka Bog, and Tabernacle are the best things to get, I also had Karakas and Glacial Chasm in the sideboard and play Maze of Ith, there are also some fringe scenarios like using it to "stifle" and opposing wasteland or getting a Mishra's Factory to start the beatdown.
I run 2 Sensei's Divining Top and play 6-7 fetchlands, 3 crop rotation, and 2 life from the loam to clear out the top of my deck. I'd say it is probably not worth playing Top with less than 8 effects to clear your top 3 cards.
I played 2 barren moor in my pre dark depths lists, cycle lands help a lot in grinding out games allowing GB pox to dredge and draw in the same turn. I have not found room for the cycle lands since I added dark depths. Crucible does a similar thing allow extra land drops while still drawing but does not add cards to the hand which is an upside to Loam, allowing us to hold cards with an active Liliana.
I think the next addition I am going to try is Exploration, the trick will be finding a balance that stay true to my pox roots. I don't want to just become a lands deck or turbo-depths.
Midnight Charm I am thinking combat tricks with this one.
Warping Wail.
My magic coach pointed me to this card and I'm somewhat regretting mentioning it here, but after careful review of the card, some call it "Eldrazi Charm", I'm certain Pox would love it in the 75 somewhere.
There's apparently a NEW form of colorless mana. [facepalm]
http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/warping-wail/
This could be new secret tech to deal with my biggest problems. Going to get 4, maybe even 8 of these bad boys once they're printed, I only hope they're cheap enough.