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So today is another Big tournament here with around 300 players (more or less,let's see)
I'm taking my list from last week with slightly changes:
main: -1 Senseis Divining Top + 1 Preordain
+1 Volcanic Island
+1 Bayou
-1 tropical island
-1 badlands
(fetchlands change accordingly)
sideboard:
-1 Thoughtseize
+1 Tropical Island
There will be 9 rounds of swiss+top8, pretty excited :)
But before let me take my breakfast:
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...6b9a8331ac.jpg
Rice in Agony. Good luck Kai!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.
Well, after 8 Rounds i was out of Top8, finished 28th among 211 Players.
The 3rd Preordain was fine, the 2 Volcanic Island manabase was interesting but not 100% percent sure if it's actually better than orher configurations.
here some infos:
over 90% of kills where either Past in Flames Kills or Tutor chains.
I used Ad Nauseam 2 times and won both games (6 Life and 19 Life)
Yeah,6 Life :D
I played Empty the Warrens only once, mainly because Tendrils was gone.
Thinking about playing 4 therapy, 1 Thoughtseize and 1Duress maybe.
Still a decent run today, any input is welcome.
2 weeks left until GP Kyoto
Good run Kai.
Im right now in the mountain preparing for next weekend in rome the mkm series. And im testing diferent builds. Basicaly at goldfish.
You build from last week.
The 2 pif 2 grim version
And my ant + 2sdt deck.
What turns it kills and how does it more often.
Obiusly its a goldfish and preordain at that is better than sensei. And running 6 discard is better than 7.
I will report my results, because there are a lot of thought behind it.
I have lots of ideas on the 2 pif deck. Lets see if i can finish torrow my testing at night afyer a day of ski, jumps and spins.
Sorry for double post.
Kai you said you only used 1 time empty but you play 1+2 you never boarded them in? Or its because it was never good?
I am afraid it would demand too much time of one person. Additionally, you guys have showed me deficiency in my thinking about said chart. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
Nevertheless, a decent resultQuote:
Originally Posted by sawatarix
I have a nice story from the other side of the world. 7 people gathered today in our local store to play Legacy for 3 rounds. Wow.
The comical fact is that I have lost 3 matches and won 2 which got me the 2nd place. :laugh:
(0:2 BUG, Bye, 2:1 Burg)
We can't match with Japanese conditions.
Hey guys. A bit more video content today. Here's me playing a Legacy DE (Daily Event) on Modo. Rather strange but wonderful experience to show off the modo Legacy meta :wink:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...jlBGJ-0hBrK-q2
Hi. Thanks for the answer to you too.Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
Anywhere I can get a standard list with that manabase? I'm still reading about the deck and I'm not confident enough in building a list myself yet
Knowing nothing about your meta, I guess a really generic list would look something like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by owerbart
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain
1 Preordain/Sensei's Divining Top/Grim Tutor
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
Obviously, a "generic" sideboard would be kind of strange to contribute because a sideboard does have to be tooled towards your meta, but you probably would end up running some number of Chain of Vapor, Xantid Swarm and Abrupt Decay.
@nevil very cool, I'll definitely give that a look. For the past couple days I've been trying to test SB Jaces against Miracles, and I could never get paired against one on MTGO! I guess you found them all for me, heh
Quote:
Originally Posted by nevilshute
Just finished watching your videos, weird matchups. But liked how you destroy them all.
Can not say I would have played really diferent from your way. Some brainstorm, ponders and so.
Also, still dont understand why you side out duress vs miracles instead of therapy. But ok.
Also you have been liking city? and you sided it vs the golddiger deck? didnt herd it in the coments.
gg
He keeps EtW in against Miracles, so I can see why he would also keep Therapies, minor synergies there. He also has the Swarms/City to cut out a lot of incidental stuff like Snare or w/e, so brute force Therapying for FoW alone can clear the way for green bombsQuote:
Originally Posted by Togores
Duress is the much safer option against Miracles even if you have EtW because there is a lot of stuff like Counterbalance and RiP that you may want to discard early before you have a chance to see their hand with something else.
I think safety is debatable here. Duress always gets something, but Therapy clears all of something. If I have a hard read on a threat, or I just fold to it if its there, I would rather clear all the copies. If I miss, yeah I lose a card, but I'm safe from the threat anyway (since neither effects solves the issue of it floating on top, at least). Miracles also has SCM and/or Clique and halting those, especially the Clique lock, preemptively can be pretty valuable. Usually, though, I do go in with a 2-3:2-3 split of Therapy and Duress, but I can see why, given his bombs and EtW, he would lean on Therapies alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
Six rounds of swiss, cut to top eight yesterday, first place.
1 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize
Sideboard:
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Dread of Night
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Flusterstorm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Bayou
1 Empty the Warrens
Empty apparently still sucks, but I had a slot. Probably gonna rotate a couple cards through that slot until I find something that doesn't suck. Everything else was great.
Swiss:
0-2 UB OmniTell
2-0 UWR Blade
2-1 SneakShow
2-0 Affinity
2-0 GRWB Punishing Maverick
2-0 UWR Dig
Top 8:
2-0 UWR Dig
2-1 UB Omnitell
2-0 Mono U OmniTell
Feel free to ask any questions about my list & matchups.
Not missing xantids?
how was rain of fith, im unsure abaout the card.
PD: your really lucky you have free slots in your sb hahahah
Rain mainly acts as the fifth Dark Ritual. This helps tremendously against players who go after your rituals. It also makes Ad Nauseam way better, enabling Threshold as early as turn two and giving you better flips because of cheaper rituals in the deck. You see how a lot of players are unwilling to cast Ad Nauseam with no landdrops open and no mana floating, but with the combination of Rain and Chrome Mox, this is rarely an issue.
Of course, there are also downsides; mainly that you're going all-in with it and that it doesn't add mana after Past in Flames, but I'm willing to accept that and I think it's better than the fourth Cabal Ritual overall.
Xantid Swarm, ironically, isn't the deck despite making Ad Nauseam a much better card to have against Show and Tell strategies. I currently prefer having the seventh discard spell and the third Flusterstorm over Swarm, as they're more versatile. The matchup against OmniShow might be better with Swarm than with my current approach, mainly because of Swarm actually doing something against Dig Through Time, but against Sneak & Show, Swarm tends to die to Pyroclasm, at least in my experience. It seems they always have two copies of that card in their deck and with all their filtering, they tend to end up with one. I prefer to let them have dead cards in their hands.
I just think that the best way to play those matchups is to use your interaction defensively, whereas Swarm is always about letting you go off.
With regards to the sideboard, I have to admit that I don't have a real plan against BUG Delver, but that's because I don't think there is a good plan that doesn't eat too many slots. Everything else I have already covered. Plus I'm basically running a 16 card sideboard anyway. I don't like the maindeck Top, it pretty much always hurts to draw it preboard, but there isn't anything else you could reasonably run maindeck. A case could be made for Bayou, but I already have the Mox.
Out of curiosity, could you (or anyone, really) sell me on running Dread of Night? It always felt like a toss-up, but Massacre always seemed to edge it out because you can get away with running fewer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jona
I always thought Dread was an odd card to run, since it feels like youd need 2 copies to solve problems postboard, especially Canonist, and it doesn't touch Revoker, afaik. It keeps weird Vial+Karakas+Thalia or Mother + X scenarios from happening, as well as just cutting down the opponent's clock, (it hits Teeg, I suppose) but I'm wondering what makes it better than Massacre. Massacre, in addition to having use against Blade decks, can hit a lot of the same things Dread can effect, as well as hitting Revoker and you only need to hit the one Massacre. Though, Massacre does fit poorly with Ad Nauseam, which you are supporting more than usual lists, so I figure that may be the explanation?
The way I see it, it's something like this:
Massacre > Dread of Night
- Hits all relevant creatures other than Teeg.
- Relevance in Blade matchups.
- "One and done" answer to creatures.
- Storm count through cheap casting cost (I've had it matter).
Dread of Night > Massacre
- Hits all relevant creatures other than Revoker.
- Reduces opponents clock throughout game.
- Meshes better with Ad Nauseam
- Prevents Vial/Flash/Karakas issues.
Does anyone else have any thoughts on the two?
Basically what you said. It lets you still play Ad Nauseam, you can play it early to take less/no damage and it wins against Vial. It is true, however, that it's worse against blue Stoneforge decks, but in those matchups I tend to only board either Abrupt Decay or Chain of Vapor (if they don't have red). Against UWR Delver, I board out Ad Nauseam, so Massacre would actually be good (and I have run one copy in the past just because of that matchup). Against Esper Stoneblade/Deathblade, I keep in Ad Nauseam though, so I wouldn't want to run Massacre.
Being able to kill Gaddock Teeg is also a factor, at least where I play locally. That's basically for free.
Pretty much all your reasoning is correct and you have to decide for your own local metagame or the metagame you expect at a bigger event which of these points are more likely to matter.
One thing you left out is that Dread of Night doesn't kill your own creatures, which becomes relevant for people running Empty the Warrens.
When I play vs deathblade and desth and taxes I board in 2 masaacre and didnt side out nauseam. Just because if you hit massacre you can swipe the board and win next turn.
I just want to point out Dread of Night also does not hit Canonist which is a common SB card in D+T. Dread of Night is way too narrow for my liking. Massacre is also an important tool for Meddling Mage UWR and Esper decks, and Dread of Night seems to be specifically for the card Thalia.Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
It takes down Mother of Runes and Thalia. That's about it. You still run into problems against Meddling Mage, SFM, Canonist, Revoker and shit. DoN was ok as long as the deck had to care much about it's cmc related to Ad Nauseam. If you pass on the 5 mana instant, I don't see how D&T should stand a chance against a postboard config. of 3 Massacres, 2 CoV and 2 PIF for clearing the boardQuote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
Jona, out of curiosity, have you had a problem with inconsistent draws with your main deck? Since you aren't running any additional Tutors or Preordains, and have potential poor draws like Chrome Mox and the 2nd ToA, do you ever have problems with not finding the right cards, or getting awkward draws with the Mox and such? Did you miss the 4th Cabal Ritual at all?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jona
Well, the worst card to draw is probably Chrome Mox, but this deck has a tendency to end up with useless cards during the combo turn anyway - how often do you discard nothing to your LED? In some matchups, Mox is a card I actively want to draw, for example in combo mirrors, where mana is much more important than the amount of cards in your hand.
Drawing Tendrils is only bad if you don't play for it. For Tendrils to become a bad draw, you have to draw it at a point where you have already traded resources with your opponent and don't have Past in Flames to make use of it. The second Tendrils makes it more likely for it to end up in your hand, thus making playing for it more likely to be successful.
Drawing both copies is worse without the fourth Cabal Ritual in the deck, I'll give you that. Not running it is something I'm currently trying out; I'm not convinced it's right just yet.
Regarding additional cantrips, I have always been playing either nine or ten plus Probes. Running too many will dilute the deck and you will end up at a point where you're just an inferior version of Show and Tell strategies. There's a reason people aren't running the full 12 cantrips anymore, although progress on this deck seems to be very slow overall. However, I do believe that 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 2 Preordain is reasonable in 2 Past in Flames builds. What I'm currently playing is much more aggressive, at least preboard, so I don't want to do that. After boarding, I tend to play a much longer game in several matchups, so that's what the second Top is there for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jona
Isn't the logical outcome of these to move the Top to the board and put a Preordain or the fourth Cabal Rit back maindeck?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jona
I have not played enough without the fourth Cabal Ritual to be sure, but yeah, running that again and putting both Tops in the board is the obvious configuration. It might actually be worse than Top though, and this way I might end up with a card that's more valuable than the ninth Ritual. In any case, I don't think either of these cards is something I actually want in the maindeck. Top has more potential upside for sure, but it doesn't mesh well with the aggressive game I'm generally playing preboard.
I hope to have at least Top vs. Cabal Ritual solved by the end of the week, then I can work out the last sideboard slot. I definitely have some ideas for that. Of course, it would be ideal to find something I want maindeck, but I don't think that card exists.
Go Slosh and play Bolt?
I was going to go ahead and suggest a singleton Preordain over the top as well (it does seems to be at odds with Chrome Mox), but someone already mentioned that. How is your Miracles matchup with just the Tops and removal?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jona
Well, have fun with your Massacres against a DnT opponent who avoids playing plains. There is a reason why the number of plains is decreasing in todays DnT lists. The inclusion of Flagstones of Trokair is only the latest example. Massacre is also dead against Teeg. I prefer DoN still. If you can get 2 out, you can solve lots oft problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Being both an ANT and D&T player I feel that you cannot realiably play around Massacre. I also disagree with your "the number of plains is decreasing in todays DnT lists" remark. People have gone up and down for years on the amount of plains. Flagstones is a nice replacement right up until you run into Blood Moon. And really, making yourself vulnerable to Blood Moons just to play around a sideboard card doesn't seem worth it to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by JanoschEausH
As the D&T player there are times where you absolutely can play around Massacre, but you are kind of at the mercy of the top of your deck and, I mean, I'd never mulligan a hand that promises turn 2 Thalia, Canonist or the likes but where my only white source is a plains. And those hands are going to be there some number of the time. And then you are open to Massacre.
I think if you want to go the DoN route then you need at least three, probably four. Even then you can lose to a revoker beating you down with a SoFaI. That's the thing about all of these cards, they aren't perfect solutions. I often find myself trying out different hate cards from time to time.
The difference between Top and Preordain is only marginal, I'd rather find a card that really does something.Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
The Miracles matchup is awesome. Now that I have Flusterstorms, I can actually play Tops against them. There really isn't much they can do.
Regarding Dread of Night vs. Massacre, it comes down to how you want to play the matchup against Death & Taxes. Dread of Night lets you reasonably run Ad Nauseam, which is a very powerful option. Being able to kill them before they can even do anything meaningful comes up a lot. I like that. Trying to play a long game against the Wasteland + Rishadan Port deck, not so much. Now, If my list wasn't designed to support Ad Nauseam as well as it does, that would be another story. Also, as I have already said, people are still playing Maverick locally, so the inability to do anything against Gaddock Teeg does come up.
Alas, we have all the arguments for both cards and it's up to you to decide which of these cards works better with your list.
The deck doesn't care enough about Blood Moon even if you are running 4 Flagstones, and if you're boarding Cataclysm, including 4x Flagstones in your main deck is an absolute no brainer.Quote:
Originally Posted by nevilshute
I have found that I, as a D&T player, can very often play around massacre when I'm facing ANT. Maybe 70-80% of the time actually. Between 3 Karakas, 4x Flagstones and 4x Ęther vials you're not very dependent on your Basic Plains in this match up and you can easily hold them back.
Pyroclasm? 2 mana is worse than 0-1 mana, but it hits everything that DoN or Massacre does except mom+thalia. For those running badlands and 2 PiF/tendrils builds it seems like a good option. I really like a diversification of answers given that nothing hits absolutely everything. Right now I have 1-2 pyroclasm, 1 massacre, and 0-1 DoN.
On a somewhat related note regarding sb tech, has anyone tried running Divert to combat hymns/discard from BUG or other discard matchups? And with the resurgence of wasteland after the ban of TC I've been considering 1 teferi's response in my sb flex slot. Vs BUG/RUG it protects our mana base and can recover some cards lost to discard. Vs something like DnT it seems kinda meh, but more cards is always helpful and an instant speed counter to a port lock seems playable. Also, how useful have you guys found Rebuild for larger tournaments? My meta doesn't need it, but playing 8+ rounds it seems like a bad idea to just hope you never see MUD.
Not sure I would want to have a card in my sideboard just vs wasteland, seems like a bit of a wasted spot. If you're really concerned about wasteland, just run a third basic and you should be more than fine.
So do you also bring in Flusterstorms to go after their floating counters/Entreats? What does your boarding plan tend to look like?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jona
I actually really liked Bolts/Pyroclasm in the treasure cruise meta. Bolt was great against the URW deck because you could either use it on a meddling mage, or if they didn't have that just kill their delver and watch them struggle to find a clock. Pyro was a nice out to a Gaddock too. Have a super stacked hand with Pif, tutor for pyroclasm to kill teeg, go off next turn by flashing back pif. Stuff like that. I think though that being 3 mana under a Thalia is what makes me kind of meh about the card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noxwalrus
Well it's not so much being afraid of wasteland and more that it seems like a really good opportunity to yell "got ya!" while drawing a bunch of cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Narcind
Yeah 3 mana cause of thalia sucks, but if you can never cast your massacre that's even worse. Also can come in against meddling mages or even elves if you feel more comfortable as the control role. Pyroclasm was definitely better during TC/pyromancer days.Quote:
I actually really liked Bolts/Pyroclasm in the treasure cruise meta. Bolt was great against the URW deck because you could either use it on a meddling mage, or if they didn't have that just kill their delver and watch them struggle to find a clock. Pyro was a nice out to a Gaddock too. Have a super stacked hand with Pif, tutor for pyroclasm to kill teeg, go off next turn by flashing back pif. Stuff like that. I think though that being 3 mana under a Thalia is what makes me kind of meh about the card.
...which was mainly the case because of the absence of Wasteland, which did not immediately punish you for fetching your only red Source in the deck (in most cases)Quote:
Originally Posted by Noxwalrus
Hence why I played Badlands anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
But against Elves I dont generally board in sweepers... I generally have found I'd rather just try to be faster by boarding out my 2nd PiF and bringing in Ad Nauseam. I guess some bring in Teeg in which case you maybe bring something in... But discard is still pretty fine against them in that situation.
-1 Chrome MoxQuote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
-2 Lion's Eye Diamond
-1 Cabal Ritual / Rain of Filth
-1 Swamp
-2 Gitaxian Probe
-2 Infernal Tutor
+1 Sensei's Divining Top
+3 Abrupt Decay
+3 Flusterstorm
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Bayou
Not sure on Cabal Ritual vs. Rain; I think Rain is worse after boarding as it doesn't synergise with endstep Ad Nauseam.
I said this before but I'm really enjoying your videos. You walk through your plays clearly and explain your thought processes very well. Please keep them going!Quote:
Originally Posted by nevilshute