[Primer] R/G Lands

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Originally Posted by djxstream

i always liked the spheres over discard. that game just proved it.

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Assuming we play literally infinite discard spells we won't be able to prevent them from topdecking cards of relevance. Modern Jund players can attest to this in the Scapeshift matchup.

Spheres and Thorns, on the other hand, mean they can never place those spells on the stack in the first place.

Sign me up for Team Sphere.

Give me both! T1 discard, T2 Sphere, some manadenial... Living the dream :laugh:

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Originally Posted by djxstream

i always liked the spheres over discard. that game just proved it.

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This was a beautiful match too see. But lets be honest, hardly proof of how good sphere is in the S&T matchup, because David Long was very lucky here.

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Originally Posted by barcode

Assuming we play literally infinite discard spells we won't be able to prevent them from topdecking cards of relevance. Modern Jund players can attest to this in the Scapeshift matchup.

Spheres and Thorns, on the other hand, mean they can never place those spells on the stack in the first place.

Sign me up for Team Sphere.

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Both Thoughtseize and Sphere are alike, they gain us time to combo first. And both cards will eventually loose the game if you don't pare it with a quick token. Both cards also have different qualities, which makes them better depending the matchup. Spheres are great as they stall sculpting, and tax stormcount. And they have great synergy with the maindeck manadenial.

But they are not very good against S&T. Because S&T needs less sculpting than others, due to running 8 fatties and 8 enablers, and because it runs mana acceleration in sollands and petals to cast a single gamewinning spell that only costs 3 or 4. Manascrewing S&T is way less efficient than it is to lock up Storm. And besides their combo, they have bloodmoon, up to 3 pieces these days, which is pretty much a 1-card-combo against us. And as al combodecks, they have some bouncespells that will take care of a quick token as well.

THat's why discard is so good here, as it's versatility can tackle many opposing gameplans, whereas spheres are all-in on the manadenial. As Chatto states, you can run them both, depending on your meta. Many Storm, go for spheres. But if it lacks Storm (which looks to be the case right now), I think you should try the discard as well.

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Originally Posted by zombie_sky_diver

I have a question that may sound silly, and something I have not tried. For the players who run Chalice in the SB, have you considered bringing it in VS. Miracles.

I know that sounds stupid, but after watching gigapatrick's videos this week (4 Miracle MU's, good god) I thought that if, IF you can land it before they assemble they're CounterTop Lock you put them is a worse position then yourself. After all, if they have the Lock out your not casting anything CMC 1 anyway. At least if you have a Chalice on 1 not only do you KO half their deck but stop their Swords.

Any thought on that? I plan to try it next I get to play. It would also make the SB Chalice more useful outside of the Storm MU.

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Definitely bring in Chalice against Miracles. No question about it. An option would be to also board out some number of one drops (specifically Manabond and Crop Rotation) to make Chalice more asymmetrical.

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Originally Posted by gigapatrick

Definitely bring in Chalice against Miracles. No question about it. An option would be to also board out some number of one drops (specifically Manabond and Crop Rotation) to make Chalice more asymmetrical.

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Yep. This specifically.

Chalice helps protect Marit Lage from Plow. It also stops Top and dig spells.

Of course, every Miracles player everywhere always seems to find their Wear//Tear(s) so do expect to get 2-for-1'd when they destroy an Exploration and Chalice. Try to kill them before that happens.

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Originally Posted by barcode

Yep. This specifically.

Chalice helps protect Marit Lage from Plow. It also stops Top and dig spells.

Of course, every Miracles player everywhere always seems to find their Wear//Tear(s) so do expect to get 2-for-1'd when they destroy an Exploration and Chalice. Try to kill them before that happens.

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Yeah, I'd say that Wear / Tear is the main reason that RG's sideboard plan against Miracles no longer seems that great to me. Before Miracles players caught on to the fact that Wear / Tear wrecks us, Chalice and Choke destroyed them--but now you get quonked every time.

I've been playing the RGB version and I can't figure out where the Dark Confidants are good. When do they get boarded in and for what cards?

Played yesterday the standard RGB version and i think i preffer the explosiveness of RG

That's my list. The Tracker was a last minute fun-of that I wanted to try out - if I were to keep a creature in that slot in the future it'd be the 4th Confidant or a Primeval Titan. What did you add over the 4th DD in the main?

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Originally Posted by Philipp2293

Karakas is not bad to have in the mirror, but nothing your oponent can't play around.

Took down a local tournament qualifier for a mixed format 16 player invitational at the end of the year with a Dark Lands list with Punishing Fire, basically this list with the following modifications:

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=20117&iddeck=153330

MD -1 Karakas + 1 Crop Rotation
SB - 1 Tireless Tracker - 2 Sphere of Resistance + 1 Karakas + 1 Dark Depths + 1 Krosan Grip

My rounds were:

4C Delver (2-1)
Elves (2-0)
UR Omnishow (2-0)
Jund (ID)
Miracles (great player, wanted to play it out for standings) (1-0)

T8: BUG Delver (2-0)
T4: Elves (2-0)
Finals: Conceede by the miracles player, since he is already qualified anyway.

MVP was definitely Dark Confidant. Brought him in in every matchup and caught at least my Delver oponents with it. The Miracles game I only won because of being on the Dark Lands list. A timely Decay allowed my to take out his CB and resolve one more Loam and an Exploration, which gave me the ressources to Port his white sources and make a Token eot a few turns afterwards. Most annoying card I faced was Pithing Needle (out of Elves and Delver), but being on Dark Lands was fine also in this regard. I could theoretically run back this list today, but I'm considering running another deck, since there were a lot of not so great MUs represented (multiple Burn, Enchantress and Omnishow decks).

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So I just got my butt kicked by d and t. I made a turn one token, yes a turn one. He had plow in hand. I then lost to a beat down with him having mom on board so even when I drew a removal it was pointless. Game 2 was just as bad, never got to make a token and he bet me down with creatures with mom backup. What exactly is the strategy in betting this deck? What are good sideboard cards and what should I take out?

Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Kuma

I've been playing the RGB version and I can't figure out where the Dark Confidants are good. When do they get boarded in and for what cards?

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Bob is really good when you are going to go for a longer game. Great against Miracles or other non combo blue decks, also Maverick (in my experience). Against Miracles, I usually take out Wastelands, maybe a gamble/loam/exploration and 1x Pfire. I've had bad experiences with counterbalance landing and me just drawing those.

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Originally Posted by CovenantElite30

So I just got my butt kicked by d and t. I made a turn one token, yes a turn one. He had plow in hand. I then lost to a beat down with him having mom on board so even when I drew a removal it was pointless. Game 2 was just as bad, never got to make a token and he bet me down with creatures with mom backup. What exactly is the strategy in betting this deck? What are good sideboard cards and what should I take out?

Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk

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Obviously, there's no real way you can mulligan a hand capable of doing a T1 Marit Lage but the matchup is all about board control. You should focus on locking the game up with Punishing Fire/Mazes/Tabernacle over aggressively going for the combo because DNT does and will have answers to the token. Once you have the game state locked up - winning is elementary. You should be boarding in Grips and don't be afraid of taking down a Vial with it especially when they're light on actual mana. Death and Taxes is a favourable matchup for Lands - you just need to establish your role as the control deck.

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Originally Posted by CovenantElite30

So I just got my butt kicked by d and t. I made a turn one token, yes a turn one. He had plow in hand. I then lost to a beat down with him having mom on board so even when I drew a removal it was pointless. Game 2 was just as bad, never got to make a token and he bet me down with creatures with mom backup. What exactly is the strategy in betting this deck? What are good sideboard cards and what should I take out?

Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk

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What you can do, is Pfire Mom in your opponent's turn. He'll tap it to protect itself, and then in your turn you can fire again.

Hey guys!

Just a short question regarding the RGB / Dark Lands list: In which MUs do you normally board the Dark Confidant and how do you use it? Would you also board it when you see that the opp boards out all his Swords to plowshares? Or is it just a back-up wincon?

Cheers;
Jon

On Bob:

Typically speaking (though it seems counterintuitive), you probably want to board Bob in against white decks, since Rest in Peace is a beating. Of course, people aren't boarding out their Swords against us, so he's got a target on his head, but at least that's one less plow for Marit. I think boarding him in against combo decks is also feasible, since those are the matchups where you really want to draw nonland cards. Still, he does seem awful slow in those scenarios. You might also board him in against Deathrite decks, but not against tempo decks, so that really only means Shardless Bug.

On Death and Taxes:

Definitely second the notion that we are the control deck. The matchup is probably something like fifty-three to fifty-five percent in our favor, depending on each build--but they have so many tricks for a Marit that you absolutely have to just control the game with Punishing Fire. Of course, at that point, if you've got Fire going, you're a heavy favorite and your opponent should concede, but a lot of Death and Taxes players think their tricks will get them further than they actually can in that scenario. Draws you lose to will be turn one Mom, turn two Revoker on Mox or Thalia with Port and Waste back up. Not much you can do in those cases. You just get your ass kicked and it feels like it.

I saw a lands deck on camera today that had warping wail in the sideboard. What do you guys think playing 3 in the side?

Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk

Would rather use my mana to control Lands. If I have a port free I would rather use it then hold up two mana.

Hey guys,

I made a playlist of RG Lands MU's. It only contains paper MU's (SCG, Snap Casters, and Atomic Empire to name a few), and will be updated as time goes by.

Just another source for information.

EDI: I know it hasn't all MU available, and I need to sort them.

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Originally Posted by Chatto

Hey guys,

I made a playlist of RG Lands MU's. It only contains paper MU's (SCG, Snap Casters, and Atomic Empire to name a few), and will be updated as time goes by.

Just another source for information.

EDI: I know it hasn't all MU available, and I need to sort them.

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Well done! This should be on the front page.

I'll see if I can get permission to upload my UR Delver matchup to YouTube for the playlist.

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Originally Posted by gigapatrick

On Bob:

Typically speaking (though it seems counterintuitive), you probably want to board Bob in against white decks, since Rest in Peace is a beating. Of course, people aren't boarding out their Swords against us, so he's got a target on his head, but at least that's one less plow for Marit. I think boarding him in against combo decks is also feasible, since those are the matchups where you really want to draw nonland cards. Still, he does seem awful slow in those scenarios. You might also board him in against Deathrite decks, but not against tempo decks, so that really only means Shardless Bug.

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Thanks for the explanation, Patrick!
What I still don't fully understand is why we dedicate three SB slots for a match-up which we will will anyway. I think that shardless BUG is one of our best MUs (as they can't really handle our token). I've never really lost against this deck and thought that Bob might be good against other decks as well. But if we don't board it against tempo, not against combo (=too slow) and only in a MU which we will win very likely anyway - what is it actually good for?

Thanks;
Jon

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Originally Posted by J0n

Thanks for the explanation, Patrick!
What I still don't fully understand is why we dedicate three SB slots for a match-up which we will will anyway. I think that shardless BUG is one of our best MUs (as they can't really handle our token). I've never really lost against this deck and thought that Bob might be good against other decks as well. But if we don't board it against tempo, not against combo (=too slow) and only in a MU which we will win very likely anyway - what is it actually good for?

Thanks;
Jon

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I've had the same misgivings about Dark Confidant as well. He's great when he's unanswered, but he's usually answered--and I can't think of too many matchups where we actually need him. Shardless Bug is definitely not a match where we need him--and the matches where we do (that is, white decks), he probably dies to Swords anyway.

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Originally Posted by barcode

Well done! This should be on the front page.

I'll see if I can get permission to upload my UR Delver matchup to YouTube for the playlist.

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Thanks and let me know! And if you find vids you like me to include, just let me know (that goes for everyone).

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Originally Posted by gigapatrick

I've had the same misgivings about Dark Confidant as well. He's great when he's unanswered, but he's usually answered--and I can't think of too many matchups where we actually need him. Shardless Bug is definitely not a match where we need him--and the matches where we do (that is, white decks), he probably dies to Swords anyway.

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I want Bob in matchups with severe graveyard disruption and decks without a way to easily answer it. This includes Storm! A quick clock that gives card advantage can sway the sideboard games.

It sounds like I'm using Bob a lot more than other people are. I basically treat it as a sideboard package and will bring it against any deck that I suspect will bring land or graveyard disruption unless they are burn-heavy and then as barcode said I'll bring it in against combo and use it draw into additional spheres/discard while hopefully providing a little bit of pressure. Usually I'll shave unnecessary creature-control stuff and then possibly a crop rotation or gamble or two. I've personally felt pretty comfortable shaving a gamble for Bob which isn't something I used to ever side out so I'm curious how other people are bringing him in.

I've been thinking about sideboard for a while as people can tell from my recent posts about white cards and I've got transformational sideboards on the mind:

Painter:

2 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
3 Pyroblast
2 Goblin Welder

Creatures (RG):

4 Inferno Titan
4 Primeval Titan
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Cavern of Souls


And there's more, of course.

The point is to radically switch up the game plan. As our deck becomes more mainstream we should take care to keep our plans of attack fresh. Always keep them guessing. I have no idea if any of these are reasonable, I need to find time to test them.

I can't take the non stop surgical extraction parade that is going on on modo anymore. I've literally been surgicaled around 3/4 of post board games according to my records over the past three weeks. It's ridiculous. It's been fun Lands players.

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Originally Posted by Lysandros

I can't take the non stop surgical extraction parade that is going on on modo anymore. I've literally been surgicaled around 3/4 of post board games according to my records over the past three weeks. It's ridiculous. It's been fun Lands players.

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Do you have a moment to talk about Primeval Titan?

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Originally Posted by supremePINEAPPLE

It sounds like I'm using Bob a lot more than other people are. I basically treat it as a sideboard package and will bring it against any deck that I suspect will bring land or graveyard disruption unless they are burn-heavy and then as barcode said I'll bring it in against combo and use it draw into additional spheres/discard while hopefully providing a little bit of pressure. Usually I'll shave unnecessary creature-control stuff and then possibly a crop rotation or gamble or two. I've personally felt pretty comfortable shaving a gamble for Bob which isn't something I used to ever side out so I'm curious how other people are bringing him in.

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Exactly... I tested Bob against Miracles today and think that's the first MU where he was really helpful. Against Combo I wish I had something like gaddock teeg in the 2-mana slot ;-)

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Originally Posted by Lysandros

I can't take the non stop surgical extraction parade that is going on on modo anymore. I've literally been surgicaled around 3/4 of post board games according to my records over the past three weeks. It's ridiculous. It's been fun Lands players.

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The online meta has felt a fair bit hostile to Lands recently. I thought it was because everybody always knew what I was on, but I guess other Lands players are having trouble as well. Kinda sucks. Prime Time and Bob are reasonable answers to Extraction, though, and I'd try them before quitting the deck.

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Originally Posted by gigapatrick

The online meta has felt a fair bit hostile to Lands recently. I thought it was because everybody always knew what I was on, but I guess other Lands players are having trouble as well. Kinda sucks. Prime Time and Bob are reasonable answers to Extraction, though, and I'd try them before quitting the deck.

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Increasingly hostile adaptations to Lands is why I've been considering wacky off the wall sideboard strategies.

Personally, I think Prime-time is the best choice. It can get your combo-pieces, while being a solid threat on his own. Being very optimistic, is there a chance that the MODO-meta is different from the paper-meta?


I like the idea of an all-transformation SB as well, but will stay with the Black splash for now.

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Originally Posted by Chatto

Personally, I think Prime-time is the best choice. It can get your combo-pieces, while being a solid threat on his own. Being very optimistic, is there a chance that the MODO-meta is different from the paper-meta?


I like the idea of an all-transformation SB as well, but will stay with the Black splash for now.

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How many Prime-Times would you play in the sideboard?

My current sideboard is 3 Bobs, 3 Sphere of Resistance, 2 Choke, 1 Karakas, 1 Dark Depths, 2 Krosan Grip, 1 Ancient Grudge, 1 Chalice of the Void, 1 Zuran Orb.

Not sure what I would cut to get Prime-time in.

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Originally Posted by Chatto

Personally, I think Prime-time is the best choice. It can get your combo-pieces, while being a solid threat on his own. Being very optimistic, is there a chance that the MODO-meta is different from the paper-meta?


I like the idea of an all-transformation SB as well, but will stay with the Black splash for now.

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The meta is fairly different and price plays a huge role so miracles (one of the cheapest legacy decks online) is everywhere while D&T and other Lands decks are essentially absent because port is more expensive than black lotus (for now...). I feel like I run into far fewer people playing pet decks than I do when playing in paper too.

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Originally Posted by Chatto

Personally, I think Prime-time is the best choice. It can get your combo-pieces, while being a solid threat on his own. Being very optimistic, is there a chance that the MODO-meta is different from the paper-meta?


I like the idea of an all-transformation SB as well, but will stay with the Black splash for now.

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I know this sounds odd coming from me but Primeval Titan isn't a panacea. Sometimes we never get to six mana. That's why it's important to consider all options.

That's my current sb:

4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Dark Confidant
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Krosan Grip
3 ThoughtSeize
1 Karakas
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Boseiju, who shelters all

(After realizing that the Bobs are primarily good against miracles, I replaced one of these slots with Boseiju)

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Originally Posted by barcode

I know this sounds odd coming from me but Primeval Titan isn't a panacea. Sometimes we never get to six mana. That's why it's important to consider all options.

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Blasphemy! :laugh:

I understand what you mean, but I like it when Primeval Titan comes down, and also nets me my combo-pieces. I like how it just immediately gives you value, whereas Bob must survive a turn. Granted, if Bob lives, he'll outvalue PT most of the time. Six cmc is indeed a bit harsh, though, but when we get there...

Other creatures to consider? I saw some names, but haven't tested them yet.

Tireless tracker was being thrown around a little bit ago and it doesn't seem like the worst idea to me when not running black.

I'm looking for a sideboarding guide for the "Dark Lands" variant.

Do you guys have any suggestions?

Thank you.

Just bought a pair of Primeval Titans to test out. All aboard the Primetime Train! Choo choo!

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Originally Posted by barcode

I've been thinking about sideboard for a while as people can tell from my recent posts about white cards and I've got transformational sideboards on the mind:

Painter:

2 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
3 Pyroblast
2 Goblin Welder

Creatures (RG):

4 Inferno Titan
4 Primeval Titan
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Cavern of Souls


And there's more, of course.

The point is to radically switch up the game plan. As our deck becomes more mainstream we should take care to keep our plans of attack fresh. Always keep them guessing. I have no idea if any of these are reasonable, I need to find time to test them.

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I would be interested in hearing about how these pan out. I think the most important thing is finding a strategy that synergizes/doesn't cut off our primary game plan. The thought being that with Dredging, milling Painter pieces could be bad. But if we could like sneak an Academy Ruins in the deck, it may not be so bad. Or something along those lines. Maybe run a single Unburial Rites or something in the creature sb. I understand the idea is to be fighting against GY hate, but wanted to toss some ideas out there. I have been having some trouble lately, not so much with GY hate, but wouldn't mind heading it off.