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That's what I think. My GB list always had a scrubland so that I can play the best combo hate available in the side: canonist and teeg.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
White was the best color during the eldrazi winter, thanks to path, Dromoka (a card I have not felt the need to play for a long time), and of course rhino.
My main deck for the past 4 weeks or so has been an Excavator build of Maverick. It doesn't work as well in practice as it looks like it does. There's been few situations where I want to GSZ an Excavator to get a Wasteland over just getting a Knight to Wasteland and become a bigger threat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
I think that if you intend to run Excavator, it should just be to ensure your mana development works out to the point where you can start dropping bombs.
What do you think about Grim Flayer in place of the Dark Confidant slot? Not too keen on shelling that much at the moment but Flayer's price tanked a lot and there's debatable upside to using him over Bob. Also might make Traverse more attractive also since you'll pretty much immediately enable delirium if you get a hit in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
I've been playing Grim Flayer in Modern and I don't think it's good enough. The point of Dark Confidant is that it can generate value in board stalls, and generate even more value when you're ahead. Grim Flayer generates no value in a board stall, and lesser value when you're ahead. 4/4 is also a bad size to be in Legacy because you lose to everything: Batterskull, Sword weilders, Baleful Strix, Tasigur, Angler, Goyf, and so on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Blood
Dark Confidant is much better, and it's not even close. I think I'm playing too many by playing 4 though, for whatever that means for your wallet. For a long time I only played 2 and it still helped a lot. I think that budget substitutes for Bob are Ranger of Eos (not even bad to play alongside Bob), Sylvan Library alongside a bunch of lifegain cards, or Stoneforge Mystic. SFM has had issues with Kolaghan's Command lately, but there's probably an answer to that somewhere (I've always been a fan of Display of Dominance... this could be where it becomes playable), or alternatively you play BUG for Strix/Jace/Nissa... but given the price of blue duals that's an even more expensive route to go.
Other two mana options include:
Night's Whisper
Full playset of Trackers and more ramp (Arbor, more DRS)
Elvish Visionary + Wirewood Symbiote
Spirit of the Labyrinth + Geier Reach Sanitarium possibly?
Not saying they're good but might be worth considering as options. I think Library is worth testing more. Hopefully Grixis dies down in the meta a bit and we can play more equipment and use SFM for card advantage.
If you're going the elf route, you might as well just play elves.
I think Sylvan Library alongside DRS, Ooze, Kitchen Finks, Courser, Baloth/Rhino, and Thragtusk has some potential.
In that way, Apostle's blessing or Faith's Shield are better IMOQuote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Those don't kill Jace, Liliana, Back to Basics, and Omniscience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulysse95
That said, I still don't think it's good enough... but it will get there one day.
It has :D. Drew 4 cards in 1 game once, vs. D&T. I love it when they StP Rhinos.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
4 cards is a bit weak, unless you mean 4 in one turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
4 cards is 16 life. I'm sorry if I can't get behind your statement. Seems strong to draw 4 extra cards in one game off Library.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
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We were referring to a situation where all your creatures gain life. In such a scenario, getting only 4 cards is definitely a bit weak.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
In Echelons situation specifically, his Rhino at an StP, so that Rhino was good for 7 life, which is two cards off Library on it's own.
Took the BUG list to Legacy Masters at UK Nationals today. 104 players. Went 5-1-1 overall, making top 8,which I am very happy with. Report and list:
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Baleful Strix
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Fierce Empath
1 Eternal Witness
1 Distended Mindbender
1 Elder Deep-Fiend
1 Primeval Titan
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Sylvan Library
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Lost Legacy
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 To The Slaughter
1 Collective Brutality
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Pulse of Murasa
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
Round 1 - Infect
Lose die roll. Game one I keep Deed, Zenith, Therapy, Jace, lands. Opponent makes Glistener Elf, Dazes therapy, Invigorates for 5, Dazes Zenith, Invigorates for 5 again.
Game two I kill a Glistener, he finds an Inkmoth. I make a Strix but it eats a Viridian Corrupter and I take 5 off an Invigorate. Leovold blocks Corrupter and goes to 1/1, I have a Deed for inkmoth and Strix for the follow up Inkmoth. I make a Tracker and close the game out.
Game three he makes a Glistener - I Therapy and see a slow hand without pump, but with a Needle. I flashback, he Brainstorms and hides the Needle, so I make Jace and fateseal it to the bottom. I trade resources for a bit and he dies to an Ashaya token and a Tracker.
1-0
Round 2 - Miracles
Game one I put some pressure on with Tracker but have to spend a lot of resources dealing with Jace. Eventually I am topdecking and he finds a Mentor and cantrips to kill me. I had the two towers and used them to recur Leovold repeatedly, but didn't cost him enough resource to stop him eventually getting Jace out - should maybe have been drawing more naturally - I had a Library - than just trying to stick Leovold.
Game two I grind a bit with Leovold and Strixes - I get to take a Jace with Therapy - and Lost Legacy his monastery mentors. I land a Nissa and start ticking her up, protecting her from his Snapcaster with a Deed and make Emrakul. It eats a Terminus but I get his turn and leave him with zero resources (brainstorm him into lands, shuffle his stuff away, etc). He cantrips into a Jace, but I have the To The Slaughter, and ultimate Nissa for lethal in the first turn of time.
1-0-1
Round three - Death and Taxes
He makes a Vial. I Therapy and miss, but get two Stoneforges on the flashback. I get Ported a bit. Eventually he has a Mom with a SoFI on it and only an STP in hand, to my Strix, 5/5 Ooze, Explorer. I screw up and sacrifice multiple creatures to emerge Mindbender, taking his STP, but by the time it is realized we are too far to back up. I end up Deeding the board either way, and beat down for lethal with a Mindbender and an Ashaya.
Game two he has a Stoneforge and all his equipment in hand - I take the Jitte with a therapy and am able to use Jace to bounce the Batterskull token. Jace dies to a Thalia on the crack back but buys enough time for me to sweep the board somehow - I think Deed. I Zenith Witness and recur Deed and force him to bounce batterskull, then Therapy it away. Elder Deep-Fiend, Tracker and Leovold finish the game.
2-0-1
Round four - Burn
He opens with Mountain, Lava Spike, which is definitely a declaration of intent. I get an Explorer and a Deathrite, and Decay his Goblin Guide. He has another one and a Swiftspear - I double block the Guide, using drs to gain some life. I Brutality some of his stuff away, make another Deathrite, and legend rule my own Leovold to get a body to gain more life with drs. Leovold beats down while I fateseal fireblasts away with Jace and I finish the game while on 2.
Game two I eat more Guide damage and some from a Swiftspear, Therapy double fireblasts out of his hand, make some Strix blocks and get it back with Pulse of Murasa. He Flame Rifts me back down to 7 but I'm able to find a Deathrite and start eating creatures to stabilize. Jace fateseal a mountain to the top of his deck and knowing he can't kill me, I get to tap out and make a Tracker and Ashaya to lethal next turn.
3-0-1
Round 5 - Czech Pile
We both make Leovold but he is able to get rid of mine and brainstorm with his Jace a couple times before my Strixes kill it. I jam Tracker and make some clues while he is tapped out but it eats a Push when he untaps. I start to stabilize at 11 but he burns me out with Bolts and DRS.
Game two I miss my third land drop and he makes Liliana LH into Jace into Tasigur. I stay alive with a couple Strixes and manage to find multiple Explorers before slamming Emrakul, but his Lili is ready to ultimate. My mindslaver turn kills Jace and Tasigur and gets Lili off ultimate, but I can't kill him from 14 through a Strix blocker and I get burned out by DRS and bolt + Kommand. This guy finished top of standings and undefeated in the Swiss, incidentally. I think maybe I should have attacked DRS into Emrakul to kill it rather than Tasigur, though he could rebuy it. Might have also been wise to swing Emmy into Liliana to kill her, even through Strix.
3-1-1
Round 6 - D&T
He makes Revoker on Deed, which I get to Decay, and I am able to kill his Mirren Crusader with Deed. He makes Recruiter into Flickerwisp and suits it up with Sword of Fire and Ice - I dont have removal for it and it can swing past my Strix and kill me.
Game two he has a slow hand with Mindcensor, Recruiter, Vial. I therapy the creatures. He draws Mirran Crusader but I kill it with a Deed. Then I Zenith Witness to deed his next stuff, and Pulse of Murasa Witness to Deed him a third time, then beat him down with Elder Deep Fiend (which is fantastic against Mirran Crusader by the way). He has a Gideon to my Nissa, but I can sweep everything but EDF and swing in to kill Gids.
Game 3 he makes Mirran and I choose to therapy his Mindcensor rather than immediately Deluge. He has a second port and puts me to 2 available mana and makes a Thalia HC, so I need to topdeck specifically a basic to sweep his board and stabilize at 8. O draw Island and kill all his stuff, then make Leovold to turn off his Ports and beat down for the kill with Leo and Ashaya.
4-1-1
Round 7 - Storm
Game one I get probed and have Explorer, Jace, EDF, and lands. He goes off on turn three and kills me.
Game two I make a Drs. He probes and therapies me, so I Surgical his probe since otherwise he will take it. The other option was Brainstorm - turns out he has another brainstorm in hand. I draw a Zenith and make Leovold. He Chain of Vapors it when I attack, but doesn't realise I haven't played a land yet and I can replay him. He durdles for a bit and Leovold and Deathrite kill him before he can go off.
Game 3 my 7 is Explorer Explorer Witness Fetch USea Surgical Surgical. He ponders off a Petal to find land turn one and I Surgical his Petal. I beat down a bit. He Ad Nauseams off two rits at the end of my turn. I have Clique, so when he stops at 5 I take Dark Ritual with Clique, Surgical his Cabal Ritual s and leave him with gas but no mana in hand. He has to Chain of Vapor Clique to not die next turn - I witness Surgical, take his Dark Ritual so the only mana sources in his deck are LED and lands, and he can't go off and dies.
5-1-1, 4th in standings.
Top 8 QF - Lands
Game one he makes Diamond, Waste, pass to start. I make some Explorers and a Tracker. End of my turn two he Crop Rotations for Stage, untaps, plays Depths with Stage activation up. I have Brutality to go to 22 and Jace to bounce after the swing but he has Punishing Fire to finish me off.
Game two I Therapy Exploration turn one and hit, but see Drop of Honey, Taiga, Maze, Depths, Stage, Stage. He topdecks Exploration and makes Marit Lake end-of-life my turn three. I dig a load with Tracker but can't find a Strix or a TTS or any other interaction, so I die with a Surgical and Lost Legacy in hand.
I know, I've been following along. That means he paid 9 life for 4 cards (2 and 1/4 life each) unless he gained more life than that. It's my opinion that most games, drawing 1-2 extra cards combined with the filtering trigger is often enough to pull ahead in grindy games long enough to get a win, or drawing a couple extra cards off the first trigger in aggressive/combo matchups/late game gan either win the game or lose it, just depends on what relevant cards you draw. With that in mind, 4 cards is double what my average use of the card has been, granted it was in Junk/Shardless, but the grindy nature of the 3 decks make me believe that the function and rewards are similar enough to draw the conclusion I have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
I have learned that you should be patient with library, drawing extra cards only when not doing so results in only one of two situations: You losing 4 or more life for not doing so as long as doing so stops that specific loss of life or will help repair/replace what that initial action took, OR when it loses you the game for not doing so and doing so will stop you from losing.
There are pros that have written about library and their lack of self-control losing them games because of their inability to restrain themselves from drawing cards that don't really impact the game in a way worth the 4 life paid.
Library is probably pretty close to as difficult to play as Brainstorm is.
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Great job @Navsi! Interested to hear any more developments on that emerge bug list.
I took Nyx Fit to a Team Trio Constructed event where we had 5 rounds. Managed to go 3-2 personally which is the same as how our team went. Beat U/R Delver, Ruby Storm, and Lands. Lost to Sneak/Show and TES.
U/R Delver - opp either never chose to grab basics from vet trigger or did not realize he could. I announced the trigger each time and chose not to ask which was the case :wink: Really gives an advantage and I had time to setup Souls for blocks until Rector could do her thing. Dovescape for burn protection seals the deal very well.
Ruby Storm - game 1 I really thought I was hosed since I lacked early disruption. Then topdecked gas to allow me to turn 3 Dovescape. I play forest, pass. Opp plays Rite of Flame -> Ruby Medallion. I play Evo Leap, pass. Opp plays a Mountain, passes. I play Vet, Phyrexian Tower, sac Vet, cast Rector, Leap into Dovescape. Game 2 I had early disruption and a turn 4 Rector trigger again for Dovescape. We traded birds for a few turns until I found GSZ to make a ton, then Eternal Witness it back in hand to make more.
Lands - this version of nic fit has got to have the easiest time with lands. Game 1 they setup Exploration/Loam and try to GQ me out of the game while digging for Tabernacle on account of my 4 attacking spirits. I keep up land counts with vets until I finally find a Rector for Splendor, they realize they can't cycle/wasteland/GQ/stage/depths and die to spirits before they can dig up enough Groves to matter. Game 2 I Swords his early Tracker and then Therapy for K Grip (miss), Rector for Cruel Reality and take the Gamble out of his hand, leaving him with not much gas. He dies a few turns later to Cruel. He could have Crop Rotated for Bojuka Bog on the Rector trigger, but I had another Rector in hand.
Yay for opponents not understanding how Vet or Rector work.
Sneak/Show was pretty close. Won game 1 due to his Emrakul sacrificing my Rector and finding Splendor. Game 2 was a long drag and I had probably a dozen library turns but just wasn't finding much of anything after I'd disrupted him with Therapies. He lands a Sneak attack and has the Force if I'd been able to find a Rector. Game 3 I keep a poor hand and draw 2 extra Veterans but no further lands or Therapy. He has Echoing Truth for my Rector.
TES not much to say, didn't have great disruption early on game 1, and game 2 I keep a risky double Leyline of the Void, GSZ, 4 lands and proceed to draw 4 or 5 more lands before finding Rector...screwed up by sacrificing Rector in a way to give him a ton of doves + goblins. Probably should have waited to see how he goes off and then just grab Curse of Death's Hold to wipe his guys at end of turn. I should have waited to see if he Burning Wished, turns out he just had Empty in hand.
That makes for 18-12 record with the recent version of the deck, hovering around 60% though I know that 30 matches is pretty small sample size. I'm curious to try possibly 1-2 Secure the Wastes as an instant-speed token producer. Has some advantages over souls, some disadvantages but I think it could really catch some people off-guard. Otherwise might try the bug list I posted a page back once the walker changes take effect.
@Navsi: Congrats!
On Library - after the 4 draws I was @17 life. 2 Rhinos ate an StP that game.
We're your draws out of need to keep parity or were they on the luxurious side?
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Mostly a luxury. Somehow I still managed to lose that game though. Missed a winning line I should have seen and paid for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Awfully quiet in here, guys.
I'll take the opportunity to update you on my Cloudpost-Nic Fit experiments. I played Leshrac's Cloudpost-Nic Fit-hybrid in another local weekly event, this time going 3-0-1 and in the draw the opponent was at 1 life and totally behind on board, facing 26+ damage next turn.
Changes I've made since the last run was putting 2 Lingering Souls and 2 Collective Brutality in the maindeck, losing some Eldrazis, some Mox Diamonds and a Crop Rotation and adjusting the mana base. I tried a light Enlightened Tutor board but didn't need it in the matchups.
Wins were vs Grixis Delver (I think), Czech Pile and Miracles; the draw was vs Eldrazi, but it felt like a win in practice. He was facing Primeval Titan and Depths + Stage, he had chump blocked with all his creatures to stay at 1 life after trample damage was dealt, I had Toxic Deluge in hand and another couple of cards and he was pretty low on lands I think, not getting mana from Ancient Tomb.
Otherwise I felt like I was a bit lucky in these games, and they should be pretty good matchups so that helps too. Like the final win vs Grixis Delver was in turn 5 of time, with 5 spirit tokens flying over his Gurmag + Leovold + Deathrites and then Walking Ballista shooting him down from 4 to 0, letting him draw 4 cards but not being able to interact. Vs Miracles my starting hand was 2 Lingerings Souls which is of course very good vs that deck, also he played Counterbalance and I managed to play around it, with some luck involved too. And he didn't draw a Blood Moon or Back to Basics in game 2, which I was very exposed to (had to fetch duals to get mana for Lingering Souls). And in the final games vs Eldrazi he had a very slow start in g1 and played a Chalice @2 which let me use Crop Rotation to grow my Tracker huge, on the other hand he totally ran me over in g2.
So, so far that makes it 11-4-1 if I'm correct. It feels better than most versions I've played (well, may be luck or meta) since it can both win quickly with Depths, interact quickly with combo through Crop (and Mox Diamond accelerated Gaddock), gain supreme card advantage (well not compared to Brael's list, still) with Trackers (powered by Crop + Posts), alternative ramp engine in the Posts. Hard hitting with Titania + Primeval Titan, going wide with Lingering Souls, Ballista that is early interaction and late game bomb when coupled with post-mana. But it seems a lot of versions are working relatively well now, based on the recent posts, which should be a reflection of the fair (?) meta overall.
Previous posts on the topic:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1023451
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1022559
Edit: made a few small updates. And another couple, sorry!
Can you post your current list in full?Quote:
Originally Posted by pettdan
Well, I was trying to avoid for a couple of reasons but it's a reasonable request so here it is. Numbers in the parentheses are related to Leshrac's version [edit: or rather, one of them]. The sideboard is work in progress. I'm not sure this is a better approach but I'm trying some things. I messed up a bit when changing things around though, the plan was to have 4 Verdant Catacombs but turns out I had miscounted so the second Collective Brutality is over a 7th fetch which may or may not work out.Quote:
Originally Posted by arj
61 Cards Maindeck:
Lands (26):
4 Cloudpost
2 Glimmerpost (-1)
2 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
0 Eye of Ugin (-1)
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Verdant Catacombs (+0)
3 Windswept Heath (+1)
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
3 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
Creatures (15):
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan
0 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger (-1)
0 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (-1)
2 Walking Ballista (+2)
Spells (20):
1 Mox Diamond (-2)
3 Crop Rotation (-1)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Lingering Souls (+2)
2 Collective Brutality (+2)
Sideboard (15):
Anti-combo package, playing t1 hatebear is pretty strong:
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Phyrexian Revoker
Fair deck package:
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Plague
1 Choke
For stuff like burn, elves, depths to buy time. Very loose slot.
1 Glacial Chasm
Graveyard hate:
2 Surgical Extraction
Double up on key pieces, mostly Engineered Plague but also Thorn of Amethyst and Ethersworn Canonist. Loses some value since Mox Diamond lets you play a hatebear t1, so this may be better used as another hatebear or I need to add some impactful enchantment, I want something vs Elves and Food Chain:
1 Enlightened Tutor
Important stuff that I removed from the maindeck to bring in sideboard cards (Souls + Brutality). Very loose slots but they help with quick interaction vs combo and mana denial, working around Blood Moon etc:
1 Crop Rotation
1 Mox Diamond
Has anyone considered Shaper's Sanctuary?
One mana, doesn't stretch us to blue, and has an effect similar to Leovolds.
First of all Navsi, congratulations! Feels great to see someone on the other side of the world succeeding with BUG Fit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Couple of questions,
The list you posted runs 64 maindeck, feels like a lot :o
From your report the Fierce Empath with 2 emerging Eldrazis seem to do a lot of good work. Were there times where there was no emerge fodder and how you mitigate that type of situation when under tempo pressure?
How is the spicy Emrakul, the Promised End in the sideboard?
Seeing that you play new emmy, I have also experimented with Arianhod's tech of Traverse + Ishkanah. It feels great tbh and DRS can be annoying sometimes.
Does nothing on its own, though. It does replace creatures getting killed by spells/abilities, but does (effectively) not replace itself (and yes, this comes from the guy that runs multiple Mirri's Guile).Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
64 maindeck : I originally had a more reasonable 61, but was worried about lack of early interaction so jammed 2 Thoughtseize in. I felt the land count was a bit low for the extra nonlands then, so added a second Underground Sea. Only twice did I need to topdeck a specific card and have trouble finding it, once vs d&t (ripped basic Island to Deluge for the win) and once vs lands (needed Strix or TTS, didn't find it). I think the Thoughtseizes should probably be Cliques and add an extra Deathrite though.Quote:
Originally Posted by fireiced
I never had an issue with Emerge fodder. One game against Storm I decided I would rather have Leovold in play + drs mana up than Mindbender him, but I'm pretty sure either line was a kill anyway. More Cliques would help here too. Can always pitch to Brutality if it's not castable. Emerge guys were better every time than Primeval would have been. Primeval is probably getting cut, or at least at risk of. He got sided out every game except Miracles and Pile.
Emrakul was solid. He came in two games - Miracles and Pile. Vs. Miracles he ate a Terminus, but set up for a lethal Nissa ult. Vs. Pile I was super behind on board but he was still like a 5 for 1. He didn't quite stabilize but I think I could possibly have made it if I had played the Mindslaver correctly.
I do not like Traverse. I don't think it is an acceptable replacement for Zenith - not getting early game Explorers is a major issue - and I don't think it's utility late game makes up for it. With Empath, Zenith does everything I need it to anyway.
- Traverse runs in tandem to support GSZ, not replacing GSZ. I like how Traverse circumvents Cage and Containment Priest effects :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
- I thought the previous Standard format where we Traverse for Newrakul for the win would work. Great to see that she is brought in to break the grindy matchups wide.
- I dislike Brutality, but that is just me not because card is bad. I like the idea of Empath searching for and providing emerge fodder body for the Emerge Eldrazis. Will seriously consider the Emerge fellas.
I haven't seen many Cages or Containment Priests recently. I can see your point about supplementing Zenith, but Traverses in those slots feels like a filler card which is there to smooth things out, but most of the slots in the deck right now are either answers, card advantage, threats, or multiple of the above - Traverse isn't really any of those. If I needed more cards and didnt want anything that actively solves some specific problem, Traverse might go in, but currently I am low on space rather than running more.Quote:
Originally Posted by fireiced
Elder Deep Fiend was excellent. Distended Mindbender was a lot less impressive. I am considering going to 2 EDF and 0 DMB.
Another creature I am considering putting in is Avatar of Woe. Might need to up the creature count a bit, but if I can get to cast it for 2 with any reliability it's a beast.
10 creatures in graveyards is a lot to ask. You might be better off with Visara the Dreadful, although the manacost might be too prohibitive. Or Sheoldred, Whispering One. That thing generates a lot of value. But that 7 mana...
I'm mainly looking for something I can Empath for that doesn't cost a flat 6+ mana. Avatar at least gets around that sometimes. I would go for Delve creatures, but they have pretty awkward anti-synergy with Emrakul. I guess I could run a Delve guy and just swap it out for Emrakul against control decks.
It's unfortunate that you arent' in white. Karador, Ghost Chieftain could make an appearance here.
I actually prefer Ishkanah. Would you also explain or maybe give examples where Deep Fiend's tap 4 shined? the UU cost can sometimes be a real hassle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
I sort of miss white but the BUG Fit is very taxing on colour requirements. I am using Meren in this slotQuote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
The Flash was actually more important than the tap 4 to be honest. Six toughness is also pretty massive.Quote:
Originally Posted by fireiced
Stuff deep-fiend did:
- Flash in and eat a Mirran crusader while tapping down d&t's vial and lands
- Block Gurmag Anglers
- Fog an Inkmoth for a turn while I dig for removal
- Eat a Brimaz
- Turn up in response to removal on Tracker
- Survive a Deluge for 5 (to kill a Batterskull'd Flickerwisp) and swing for lethal the turn after.
I would indeed love white (mainly for Swords tbh) but the manabase is just too unstable.
For when you need a really meta nic fit deck:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
4 Tireless Tracker
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Diabolic Intent
2 Sylvan Library
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Helm of Obedience
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Nissa, Vital Force
4 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
2 Phyrexian Tower
side:
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Lost Legacy
2 Obstinate Baloth
2 Choke
1 Fatal Push
1 Toxic Deluge
1 To the Slaughter
Went 3-2 in a mtgo league with something close to this last night. Working on tuning it a bit as it actually surprised me. Will come back later if more testing shows promise. Sideboard needs refinement. Open to suggestions. Loving the quad trackers and I've been missing them since being on Nyx for so long.
damn that's spicy. i wouldn't have thought to put helm+RIP into a nic fit shell, but 4+1 is still a lot of mana in legacy so i guess that makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by square_two
do you find you're able to reliably get the combo out? is your midrange backup plan strong enough if that fails or are you just biding time with trackers? definitely a sweet-looking list.
Last night I was running with only 1 Intent and it still didn't take too long to find the Helm when needed. Intent seemed great, was able to animate a land with Nissa for it one game, fetch into an Arbor for it another game. Won every game with the combo, although the D&T match I lost due to timing out might have been won by playing a second tracker and going ham (first had over 5 counters on it). I was just a couple turns away from Deeding his board and then comboing though. 4 trackers is imo a splendid thing to be doing since it is both pressure + card draw. Might try -1 Deed +1 Deluge main in order to avoid losing clues. What's also fun is that E Witness and Nissa are both able to buy back combo pieces, both of which can't be eaten by DRS. Nissa is further pressure if needed in that regard, although I ult'd her once last night while I had 2 fetches in hand and that dug me into both combo pieces against Bomberman.Quote:
Originally Posted by NON
Below is the list I have been tinkering withQuote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Maindeck (60)
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Ishkanah, Grafwidow
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Nissa, Vital Force
4 Brainstorm
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
Sideboard (15)
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Divert
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Null Rod
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Dread of Night
1 Engineered Plague
There are definitely times where I cannot achieve delirium on time. RIP and GY replacement exile effects definitely hit quite hard but I really love the 10 cantrip core of Brainstorm/GSZ/Traverse which allowed me to drop to 20 lands and enjoy the less flood less screw which Arianhod was talking about. Ishkanah overperforms as did Grave Titan. The 4 life loss in board stalls was awesome. Cannot find anything to cut for Deep Fiend thou and I also want to cut 1 card for either Brutality or Hymn/TS.
I would only run Deep Fiend with Fierce Empath. Without it you can't search him up and he's significantly less useful. Traverse is nice but I don't think it is right for EDF.Quote:
Originally Posted by fireiced
I think running less than 4 Zeniths in most builds just isn't right - I don't see any real times when Traverse is any better than Zenith, but there are lots of times when you want Zenith over Traverse, so I don't see why you wouldn't run 4 Zeniths and less Traverses.
I prefer Brutality over Push - mainly because it has text against combo, and helps our bad Burn matchup. There aren't that many big dumb creatures that die to push but not Brutality, and most of those have trouble with Baleful Strix.
It is a little meta slanted. Push is mostly for opposing DRS because DRS does not hit into strix. I agree that no Empath, Deep Friend is much weaker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
I did some self debate quite some time in pushing GSZ down to 3 for the longest time. Ultimately I caved in because running 20 lands require some increased number of cantrip or land tutor effects. Call it deck thinning for early game, late game to have more live topdecks.
Burn: I got a couple of Burn in meta, usually not much problems with them as Therapy and Swagtusk does a lot of work. Snapcaster and Divert in sb is very stupid against them. I want a 5th discard slot still and pending between Brutality or TS but have yet to find the space for it.
I agree with Navsi on Push in general, it's not all that great. I also run Brutality over Push.
20 lands feels far too low.
Navsi is doing it right at 24 (64 cards aside, but even that isn't that bad).