[Deck] Armageddon Stax

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Artifacts 20
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Crucible Of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere

Creatures 5
3 Magus Of The Tabernacle
2 Baneslayer Angel

Other Spells 11
4 Armageddon
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Oblivion Ring

Land 24
5 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City Of Traitors
4 Flagstones Of Trokair
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Kor Haven

Sideboard 15
4 Sphere of Law
3 Choke
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Damping Matrix
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Magus Of The Tabernacle

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Just quoting the list first up above.
In my recent matchups, the real issue for me has been losing critical pieces to either EE or being taken out by fast aggro. Working with the principle that lock pieces can only be replaced by better lock pieces, I tried to find a better piece. Suppresion field is now maindeck because of this, it slows down some of the top contenders and leads to a "must counter or destroy" kind of lock piece (especially against fetch lands).

I was running WU in order to have Propaganda and Ghostly prison, but realized that it was now not as good even as Ensnaring Bridge. No bottled cloister combo or what not, just Ensnaring bridge. It certainly dwarfs out New Horizon's and other aggro strategys.

One of the worst topdecks has been a Mox Diamond for quite some time, with Ensnaring bridge you can simply drop it and let it die to it's own trigger and maintain a low hand size. Ensnaring bridge get's around the worst of the discard contender's and often stop's discard strategy's. When you have one card, Even Nantuko shade isn't coming through for pumped hits.

By doing this though, it eliminated the need to have a Tabernacle system. While this might seem like sacrilege in a Geddon Stax thread, Tabernacle became one of the weakest cards except in Goblin or Fish matchups. Player's who do not have an answer for Bridge will let their creatures die in order to find the answer with their mana. Reliance on Crucible became slightly less (still a 3 or 4 of for Wastelock and similar). This freed up quite a few slots. After this, looking toward's the win condition, it became necessary to now have a reliable win condition. In this way Magus became a two of.

Elspeth fills that slot. Even as a two of, the diminished need for win condition's with factory's become oustanding. Of course with Ensnaring bridge you now have to meet it's own requirement to attack; but Ensnaring bridge also saves Planeswalkers in a way that Prison/Ganda could not.

So what's my point?

I believe you are entirely correct that card quality can be increased and free up more room.
Crystal ball is certainly looking good. But the Temple bell seem's better to me. While mutual draw system's are rarely what is wanted, the no life penalty, and the ability to control the draw time to make the most of Ensnaring bridge provides real depth.

Trinisphere has been better then ever for me. And is back up to a 4 of.
My core is now looking like this.

4 Trinisphere
3 Suppression Field
4 Mox Diamond
2 Elspeth
2 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Temple Bell
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Oblivion Ring

28 Cards with more available slots then ever.

New tester card for the week is Ajani Vengeant.
His ability to tap and hold something down is impenetrable. Often times that which might be able to deal with him becomes tapped down as he becomes a one sided Armageddonantion!
Supporting a R isn't so hard either. A single Plateau and a Arid Mesa has worked fine. The single fetch is often a non issue with Suppression field. Mox diamond's pick up the slack. And Flagstones can still find them should they go to the grave; of course sometimes Wastelanding yourself (horrid situation) can be necessary.

Other tester's involves a 2 of Riftstone portal in the landbase. It provides a way out to Ancient tomb damage and easy WW or G taps. That let's us enjoy Choke in MB or SB and get's out of Blood moon! (They become Mountains with tap for green or white aka jungle shrine!)

Ensnaring bridge opens up new options in Planeswalkers, which is still something that is not that easy to deal with short of an Oblivion ring.

Maze of Ith is filling my own Tabernacle spot. And I will be testing KoTR over Magus in the next week.

Enlightened Tutor generates no real CA, but think about games you've won and games you've lost. Games I've won have all amounted to having a relevant soft lock piece down on t1 or t2 (Chalice/Trinisphere/Prison) either followed up with a beater they couldn't stop or with a harder lock (Wasteland/Smokestack + Crucible). When I lose, it's either because I didn't have soft lock by t1/t2, because I mulliganed down to oblivion while looking for a relevant lock, or just from bad late game topdecking. Enlightened Tutor fixes two of these problems and potentially helps the third (admittedly it potentially hurts the third as well simply depending on gamestate).

That being said, I've been goldfishing games using 3 and 4 Enlightened Tutors in place of some combination of Crucibles, Smokestacks, and Oblivion Rings and have found that my chance to goldfish into a t2 soft lock is highly improved, while my chance to t1 into a soft lock remains the same. I'll keep testing it out, but I encourage others to do some testing of their own and not write it off completely.

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Originally Posted by kirbysdl

As a deck, Stax is actually impressively consistent simply because of the number of 4-ofs we run. The problem is that we need a lot of pieces, and we need each one at a particular time. We're asking for the deck to predict future gamestates and always give us the perfect card.

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Originally Posted by Noman Peopled

We get enough keepable hands but know woefully little about whether they will work out even during the first few turns.

The first part is the very definition of inconsistency, isn't it?

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This may lead us down the dark hole of semantics, but here's a thought: perhaps we've built Stax up to actually be too consistent. The problem with consistency is that you lack versatility. Card quality engines give you precisely what Stax needs: not the same card every time, but the right card at the right time. Depending on the opponent and current state of the board, your optimum topdeck changes, and tutors are a way to help manage the topdeck. In other words, tutor DOES decrease your consistency by making the deck do different things each game, but that could very well be a strength.

Consider the use of ETutor in recent Death and Taxes lists. It's used to construct a toolbox sideboard filled with singletons that each address a particular threat. Why doesn't Stax use a toolbox? The prevailing Stax philosophy is that we don't need specific solutions to individual problems: all of our cards handle many threats. Again, you see Stax valuing the idea of consistency: we just do the same thing come what may. However, it's increasingly obvious that consistency isn't enough. Even when each card is generic enough to handle many threats, there're always some cards that will be more useful than others in a given situation. When people say that the deck is inconsistent, it's probably being quite consistent: but it still can't predict the future and give you what you'll need. In that case you need directed, deliberate inconsistency: you need a tutor.

However, the problem of card disadvantage still exists. In the case of D&T, the ability to pack five copies each of several game-breaking cards into the side is deemed more significant than the occasional loss of a draw step. Does the tutor in Stax grant such strong advantages that it's worth the same price?

In the case of Stax, there's dissonance between tutor and other cards in the deck. Even if we can say that the tutor's card quality strengths outweigh its card advantage weaknesses, there are these other problems to deal with. But it's time to abandon the idea of consistency above all, because consistency isn't enough. If it were, Stax would be doing better than it is. We need to influence the deck to be inconsistent in our favor. We need it to do different things in different games, but we need to control those differences. ETutor might not be the way to do so, but we need something like it.

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Originally Posted by kirbysdl

Stuff about consistency

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http://img.coolstuffinc.net/products...202011/203.jpg

A full night on Workstation. Played against New Horizons, against some Fish, one Gobo, and actually only lost Gobo.
I must say this is working well. The sad face of having to pay 2 for some activated ability's is worth the pain on locking out fetchlands for turns on end or totally. Versus gobo's, it makes aether vial a sad face. I had little issue with consistency, and mulli'd about one in 3 games and was happy with the new hand. Ensnaring bridge was great except when you hit a huge land bust up. But that would be loss anyway, so I'm okay. Otherwise you can run out things to get low on Bridge and be comfy.

AJ is amazing. A tapper, a clock, removal, it's what we need.
Lightning helix can remove a small threat and life gain you. Occasionally getting rid of the Riftstone short of a Mox is hard. In which case it produces colorless on field till you can Waste it or Ghost quarter it or Smokestack bump it off. But that tech has saved me from countless deaths to Ancient Tomb!


1 Horizon Canopy
3 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Maze of Ith
3 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Arid Mesa
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Plateau
2 Riftstone Portal

2 Magus of the Tabernacle

1 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Suppression Field
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Ajani Vengeant

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Originally Posted by Q-Ball

3 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Plains
1 Maze of Ith
3 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Arid Mesa
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Riftstone Portal

2 Magus of the Tabernacle

1 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Suppression Field
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Ajani Vengeant

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playing no geddons is bad at all especially with 4 trinisphere and 3 suppression field main.
i guess it is better to go for bridge than for the prison if playing no geddons in geddon stax. but not playing the good cards to make the worse cards better seems strange to me.

the problem with the bridge is that it will never stop first turn lackey when you are on the play - with prison you got at least the chance to go for t1 prison t2 wasteland/prison#2/geddon/... .
my games against goblins with durchstax told me that 1st lackey which is able to attack you on their 2nd turn is their only way to win as they can win on their turn 3 after hitting us once.

ajani is NO real clock - if not disrupted in any way he takes like 19 turns to win alone if the opponent is on 20 life. though its a good card and running 2 is very fine.

1 off smokestack is super random and you should play more or none.

suppression field is a nice card but there is no space for them ... get those in your sideboard and start running fuckin' geddons.

the mana base sucks hard. it shows me that you never played this deck in real life.
you will never get any good results with playing 1 plains - i disliked playing 4 in my 3 color build - now i play 6 in a 2 color build.
rework it ... cut some stuff and add some basic plains ...


post your sideboard!
as you are running red i would hardly recommend 4 BOIL for it.

best regards

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Originally Posted by kirbysdl

1 off smokestack is super random and you should play more or none.

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Yeah, I was thinking that the only reason to run less than three is if you start using ETutor. You don't necessarily want to see a stack in your opener anyway.

I think getting into semantics isn't going to help us any. ;p If you've played the deck to any extent, you know "the problem". You're playing Burn, your opening seven has 2 mox diamonds, 3 land, a Ghostly Prison, and an Armageddon. Do you keep and hope you draw into a better lock piece or mulligan and hope you get a better lock and have the mana setup to cast it early? You're playing Goblins on the draw, can you afford to keep a Flagstones, an Ancient Tomb, plains, Trinisphere, Chalice, Mox Diamond? Their turn one will be a Lackey or an Aether Vial. Playing your Chalice or Trinisphere will do barely anything to slow them down, if that. You can mull or you can draw, either way, hoping to pick up a Ghostly Prison (perhaps a Supression Field) before they completely overrun you.

Of course, these games could just as easily gone the complete opposite. T1/2 Chalice@1 or Trinisphere spells the end for Burn. Or had you been on the play, Goblins would have under tremendous pressure. That's the conundrum with Stax. If it weren't for the potential to make such devastating T1/2 plays, Stax would have been long abandoned because many times you are defeated by your own lousy draws, not anything in particular an opponent is doing.

Moving on... Ajani Vengeant VS Baneslayer as a finisher:

AV has very relevant abilities, namely tapping permanants and destroying lands. The life gain is helpful, but because it's a - ability, it can't race well.

Baneslayer can race better than any creature.

AV's cmc is 4, compared to Baneslayer's 5. They both require 2 colored mana, however Ajani requires WR while Baneslayer is WW.

AV is harder to kill, assuming you have some sort of lockdown on their creatures (Ghostly Prison, Oblivion Rings).

Baneslayer is harder to kill, assuming you have some sort of lockdown on their resources (Trinisphere, Chalice@1).

Either is good under a hard lock, obviously.

AV tries to slow the game down, Baneslayer tries to speed the game up.

While Ajani V is a good card and fits our theme very well, I wouldn't replace Baneslayer with him. Perhaps it's still worth consideration in another slot though.

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the mana base sucks hard. it shows me that you never played this deck in real life.
you will never get any good results with playing 1 plains - i disliked playing 4 in my 3 color build - now i play 6 in a 2 color build.
rework it ... cut some stuff and add some basic plains ...

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I must say your off your rocker a little bit.
The mana base is averaged out by priority and casting cost; with proper utility.
27 Lands including one that doesn't make mana (unless riftstone hits grave)

1 Horizon Canopy
3 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Maze of Ith
3 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Arid Mesa
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Plateau
2 Riftstone Portal

There are 10 white producers, again plus four mox. My only double white is Elspeth.
If flagstones hits the grave, and it normally does, 2/3 of games, everything produces white and green.
Otherwise, there are four green producers, not counting the Flagstones inherent ability to find a Savannah.
And "2" red producers, plus the flagstones, plus the mox.
That is 14/8/6. Without Ghostly prison, everything I mainly play to lock is colorless.

Again, not running Geddon means I don't need the extra plains.

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ajani is NO real clock - if not disrupted in any way he takes like 19 turns to win alone if the opponent is on 20 life. though its a good card and running 2 is very fine.

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As explained; and as you have clearly not used him, he is not a clock.
He is a lock piece. He has a one sided geddon built in under a soft lock, he can help lock down important mana or even a Mox, he can hold off an attacker much like a Maze of Ith and make a player take out a second threat to deal with him, in which case if they can even get that, it has to fit under Bridge.

Because of this, Magus and Mishra's are still the same finisher with Elspeth support.

I could see myself dropping the Suppression field based on meta. Here there is mass fetch lands and alot of planeswalkers. In which case I'd add another Smokestack and 2 ghostly prison. Suppression field however does help with goblins. Blocks vial rather well.

Instead of being rude, I would suggest actually reading and letting the gears turn.

Suppression Field MD is a pretty interesting idea that I had been thinking about actually. It seems like most decks either run fetchlands or Aether Vials. I definitely wouldn't run them alongside Mishra's Factories though. I already think Factories are weak, SF just makes them more so.

CRYSTAL BALL

This card should be taken into consideration imo, since (and I think all of you would agree) consistency is THE issue when comes to Stax variants.


EDIT: Here's an experimental list featuring The Ball:



2 Crystal Ball
1 Armageddon
2 Ravages of War
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Elspeth, Knight's Errant
2 Ajani Goldmane
1 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
2 Powder Keg
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrelvale
1 Maze of Ith
(-30-)

4 Mox Diamond
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
7 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
(-30-)

SB:
3 Ghostly Prison
2 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Suppression Field
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 New "you have shroud" Leylines

Yeah, there has been an SCD started by Infinitium here.

klaus, you have so many one-ofs and two-ofs and three-of Wastelands and Trinisphere? The only decks that can pull stuff like that are with Brainstorm and Ponder. Crystal Ball might be good, but it's definitely not that good.

Also, I think for Crystal Ball to be noticeable, we need at least three, maybe four.

Edit: I've been messing with this same build with Enlightened Tutors in place of Crystal Ball for a couple days now. I'm going to give Crystal Ball a try though.

Artifacts 21
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack
3 Crucible Of Worlds
3 Crystal Ball

Creatures 5
3 Magus Of The Tabernacle
2 Baneslayer Angel

Other Spells 10
4 Armageddon
4 Ghostly Prison
2 Oblivion Ring

Land 24
5 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City Of Traitors
4 Flagstones Of Trokair
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Kor Haven

:)

Leyline of Sanctity
2ww
Enchantment Rare
If Leyline of Sanctity is in your opening hand, you may begin the game with it on the battlefield.

You can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control.

My new test is with Knight of the Reliquary
Is really a great card, you can use it to get a wasteland to wastelock with, crucible, a tabernacle, mishra, ... any land you need, is really BIG with armageddon and with chalice@1 cant be killed easily

My current test deck is:

4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of traitors
4x Plains
2x Savannah
3x Wasteland
1x Kor Haven
1x Nomad Stadium
1x Tabernacle at Pendrell vale
3x Flagstones of trokair
1x Riftstone Portal
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Karakas
1x Mishra's Factory

26 Lands

4 Mox Diamond
2 Engineered Explosives (Or 1 and 1 Oblivion Ring)
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds

16 Artifacts

2 Baneslayer Angel
2 Knight of the reliquary
3 Magus of the Tabernacle

7 Creatures

4x Armageddon
4x Ghostly Prison
3x Story Circle

11 Other

I'm not sure if moat is a good card here, because i can only kill with baneslayer angel if i use moat

With green you can use krosan grip and choke in Sideboard

I feel like your manabase would have trouble consistently bringing out either KotR or Story Circle in a timely fashion. Over half of your mana base is colorless and you want 2 colored mana by the time you have access to 3 mana. I worry about dropping Smokestack also. This deck generally takes a long time to kill and without a hard lock, that gives them a lot of time to find answers to either your soft lock or your beaters.

I have started doing playtesting with the following build, utilizing Elspeth and Grim Monolith:

4x Trinisphere
4x Armageddon
4x Ghostly Prison
4x Crucible of Worlds
4x Magus of the Tabernacle
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Elspeth, Knight Errant
3x Smokestack
4x Mox Diamond
4x Grim Monolith
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
5x Plains
3x Flagstones of Trokair
1x Ghost Quarter
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

The addition of Grim Monolith is a huge speed boost to the deck, allowing for more consistant turn one Trinispheres or Crucibles, as well as turn two Magus. Has anyone else found success adding in Grim Monoliths?

I decided to abandon the Baneslayer Angel route and stick with just Elspeth and Magus; Elspeth has a great amount of synergy with Smokestack, can create blockers, and is more difficult to remove than a Baneslayer. Any thoughts on this choice?

I've only been able to get a handful of games in via MWS thusfar but plan on getting a bunch of testing in sometime soon and will post my notes/thoughts.

So how often do you untap Grim Monolith? If you tend to just use it once, then I start to wonder how much more useful it is than any other card that takes X mana and returns X+1. Your argument then isn't really for Grim Monolith, but for more mana acceleration in the deck.

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Originally Posted by kirbysdl

So how often do you untap Grim Monolith? If you tend to just use it once, then I start to wonder how much more useful it is than any other card that takes X mana and returns X+1. Your argument then isn't really for Grim Monolith, but for more mana acceleration in the deck.

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I rarely untap the Grim Monolith, so yes, my core argument is that the deck needs just a little more acceleration. However, it does have the benefit of being an extra permanent that you can sacrifice to Smokestack. The other X => X+1 mana acceleration in the format is either off-color, a single-use spell, or is awkward with the deck construction (such as imprinting one of the few colored spells onto a Chrome Mox).

I had briefly tried running Metalworker, which is an incredible card, but dies to common removal such as Lightning Bolt, and the deck typically cannot support playing him until later in the game when you can set up a Trinisphere or Chalice of the Void set to one. I was stoked to be able to untap with an active Metalworker, but setting it up requires a lot of front-end work to make it reliable, whereas Grim Monolith just works.

Grim Monolith really doesn't provide much better acceleration than a Lotus Petal would. Petals are easier to cast and provide colored mana (sometimes lacking in this deck). Not to mention the following:

Consider a hand with 1 Flagstones, 1 Plains, 1 Wasteland, 2 Grim Monoliths, a Magus, and a Trinisphere. Probably keepable, but still slower than you'd want.

Now consider the same hand with Petals: 1 Flagstones, 1 Plains, 1 Wasteland, 2 Lotus Petals, a Magus, and a Trinisphere. Not only keepable, but you have multiple strong t1 plays.

That said, you could also use Elvish Spirit Guide and/or Simian Spirit Guide with Petals for even higher chance to pull off silly t1 plays.

The added bonus that you can sac a Grim Monolith later in the game just doesn't cut it for me. If I make the call that the deck needs more acceleration then I'm going to give it the best acceleration I can. Stax's main problem is consistency. The deck is just as likely to mull into oblivion as it is to give you a good t1 play and it's just as likely to draw you a land halfway through the game as it is a wincon/lock piece.

So do I solve consistency by adding more mana acceleration and upping my explosiveness or do I look for some sort of CA engine or filter (Crystal Ball/Sylvan Library/etc)?

I'd be very interested to see how a Stax deck packing Spirit Guides and Lotus Petals performed. Turn 1 Smokestack, Turn 2 Crucible seems pretty hot. On the other hand, I think a filter like Crystal Ball might be the safer route to take. In any event, I'll be playing around with both.

Yeah, Lotus Petal does seem like a fine choice if you just want to do bonkers turn one plays, but you'd probably have to run 4x Serum Powder for maximum explosive potential, when Stax isn't really an explosive deck.

After reading the past ten pages of posts and playing some more games on MWS, I believe that Crystal Ball is probably the better option here. I haven't had a chance to playtest it as of yet, but being able to Scry 2 every turn would have allowed me to blow past a glut of land that cost me a game. I'm going to switch to -4 Grim Monolith +3 Crystal Ball, +1 Oblivion Ring and see where that gets me.

Yeah, that'd be almost exactly like the list I'm working on now. Post back when you get some results.

Well, last night I played in a local legacy tournament in San Jose, CA and went 3-1 with the Grim Monolith build (because Crystal Ball wasn't legal until today):

Main Deck
4x Trinisphere
4x Armageddon
4x Ghostly Prison
4x Crucible of Worlds
4x Magus of the Tabernacle
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Elspeth, Knight Errant
3x Smokestack
4x Mox Diamond
4x Grim Monolith
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
8x Plains
1x Ghost Quarter
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Sideboard
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Null Rod
3x Oblivion ring
2x Razormane Masticore
1x Karakas
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Round 1, vs New Horizons:
Game 1 - he countered all of my spells with Spell Spierces, Force of Will and Daze while beating me down with Goyf and Pridemage. At this point, I put him on playing Bant NO CounterTop, as I didn't see any Terravores, Stifles, or Knight of the Reliquary.
Game 2 - I keep a colored-mana-less hand and play Grim Monolith turn 1. he plays Misty Rainforest and passes. Turn 2 I play Crucible of Worlds, which is countered, and I play a 2nd Crucible after playing my land for the turn, which resolves. He plays a land and passes. I decide to cast Trinisphere instead of wastelanding his Tropical Island, which turns out to be a huge mistake, as next turn he casts a Terravore, followed by a Knight of the Reliquary. I definitely should have just Waste-locked him out of hitting three mana intead of playing Trinisphere.

We played a few more games afterwards, and I went 3-2. The games I lost were due to drawing terribly later in the game or keeping loose hands. Crystal Ball will definitely be a welcome addition to the deck. I found that Grim Monolith wasn't so much good for powering out ridiculous turn one plays as it is amazing at allowing you to play Smokestack or Magus of the Tabernacle on turn 2 with mana enough to avoid Daze and even Spell Pierce.

Round 2, vs Random-deck:
He's playing a deck revolving around Glimpse of Nature and 0 cmc guys... I play turn 2 Trinisphere both games.
1-1

Round 3, vs The Rock:
There wasn't much he could do, even with Duress and big guys. Establishing Magus + Armageddon with Mox Diamond on the field made game one a winner, even though he put me to 2 life. He sideboarded in a bunch of artifact/enchantment hate (krosan grips and something else from what i saw after the round) but saw none of it, as he opened with Treetop Village... I opened with City of Traitors into Grim Monolith, played Mox Diamond pitching Ghost Quarter and tapped out to play Lodestone Golem (I sided out 4x Trinisphere and sided in 4x Golem) with Wasteland in hand for turn 2. That was a short game.

Round 4, vs Merfolk:
Merfolk is a very thought intensive matchup, as you have to time everything to get around their Dazes and Wastelands, but at least you don't have to worry about Curse Catcher. If you are able to resolve one or two lock pieces, they are probably toast. Game 1 he had double Aether Vial, but was land light, so after baiting some Force of Wills with Crucible of Worlds and Smokestack, I was able to stick a Magus of the Tabernacle, which ground him to a dead halt. Armageddon followed by a Plains sealed the deal, but the game took nearly 30 minutes to resolve. Game three I sided out the Trinispheres for Null Rods to shut off his Jitte and Aether Vials. This paid off in huge dividends as he hit a lot of mutavaults that game which i was able to wasteland, and he again could not surmount the pressure of Magus of the Tabernacle.

Thoughts:
I am happy with the inclusion of Grim Monolith, but am wavering with Trinisphere. It's such a greatly powerful card, but it's pretty terrible when you are on the draw. Also, Crucible of Worlds was not as great as I wanted it to be. I basically just want to see one of them in a game, and typically not till later on. The Magus (as you all know) is a rockstar in the deck, so I want to add an additional Tabernacle effect. Ghostly Prison was also a very strong card in the build. Has anyone tried playing with Windborn Muse? It seems like it might be ok. Heck, it even flys, so it can block Trigon Predator all day. Finally, Elspeth, while amazing, is probably only a two of in the deck. I'm thinking of the following testing modifications:

Maindeck
-4 Trinisphere
-1 Crucible of Worlds
-1 Elspeth
+3 Crystal Ball
+1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
+2 Windborn Muse

Sideboard
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Null Rod
3x Trinisphere
1x Karakas
3x Powder Keg or Relic of Progenitus

Thoughts?

i played the crystal ball in the prerelease, and it was awesome, and it could be just the thing staxx needs to become a little more consistent

its been quite a time since last i played staxx, and i would love to know what everyone is thinking about grim monoliths unbanning, does he really deserve a slot in the deck, i mean do we really need more accelleration?, but i will definitely get some more copies of crystal ball, and see where i can fit them

what i found interesting, well since it was quite some time, i had anything to do with staxx, i was wandering what happened to the oblivion rings, were they dismissed the moment quasali pridemage was printed, or is there any other reason i can not think about right now?

could you please give me a short summary of what happened in the white staxx world in the last year ( i know its a bit much asked )

i would really appreciate it

I really wouldn't cut Trinisphere. It makes Force of Will and Daze cost three regardless of their alternate costs. For a deck with permission, it is a must-counter if they want to counter anything again.

I've also come to like Suppression Field over Damping Matrix (which I used in place of Null Rod). Suppression Field is just too good against tri-colored decks. T1 Suppression field is almost game for Zoo. They have to draw two non-fetchlands just to use a fetch. Good luck with that! It also hits Aether Vial, Pridemage, and a whole host of other problem cards.

If I had a The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale I'd definitely use it. ;p

I also don't like your graveyard hate. I prefer Faerie Macabre, but Tormod's Crypt and Leyline of the Void are good too.

How do you like Powder Kegs? They seem like they could be useful against Zoo, but I'm not sure what I'd want to side out for them.

As a wincon, I'm torn between Baneslayers, Elspeth, and Gideon. I've been using Baneslayer for the most part because I really hate how creatures can skip right over Ghostly Prison to smack planeswalkers.

Well, the problem with stax is it's draw right? Multiple crucibles and trinispheres is like shooting yourself in the head, unless they counter it ofcourse and you need another one.

So enlightened tutor can make you run less and tutor the one's you need.

But with a hand of:
Tomb/traitor, plains, e.tutor, chalice + 3 cards

You are on the play, what do you do?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mercc

Well, the problem with stax is it's draw right? Multiple crucibles and trinispheres is like shooting yourself in the head, unless they counter it ofcourse and you need another one.

So enlightened tutor can make you run less and tutor the one's you need.

But with a hand of:
Tomb/traitor, plains, e.tutor, chalice + 3 cards

You are on the play, what do you do?

---

Well, what are the three cards? Do I know what I'm up against? Pre- or post-board - if post-board, what silver bullets do I have? Do I have City or Tomb?


If
- no knowledge of what I'm up against
- Ancient Tomb in hand
then:
- t1 Tomb, Chalice
It's at least acceptable against so many decks. I'd definitely do that if I had some creature control as that would mean Zoo is basically dead if they don't draw solutions and I draw any gas - and I have relevant things to do against Merfolk anyway.
Against blue-based decks in general, I'd be cutting off cantrips that would help them draw into counterspells or other solutions to my lock pieces. If Chalice gets countered, they've lost two cards and I can go tutor for Chalice next turn or play 3sphere if I have it. If they're playing combo it's important to cut them off fast mana as well as cantrips anyway.
So, while I'm unable to plan against a specific deck, I can be pretty sure Chalice does something. Only few tutor targets are really viable at that point, as quite a few could miss completely. If I have a legitimate t2 and t3 play, I'm not gonna care about one dead card so early in the game.



If, however, I had City instead of Tomb, I' wouldn't ever want to screw myself out of three mana t2. Lead with Plains, ETutor during their turn (if they fetch for blue, in response to the activation to prevent dazing).

@antipode: I have a few questions...how did you feel with the removal efect of o-ring md?? Runing elspeth, would be proper to run at least one copy of moat??
And why did you run 4 geddons and no flagstones??

Thanks for the report, antipode. What positive influence did you see from Elspeth during the night? You never mentioned her strengths, and indeed thought about reducing her to two. What about replacing her with something like the Golem, and keeping the fourth Crucible to recur lands with Stax?

I also found it odd that you were taking out Trinispheres. Like the others said it's just too damn strong on the play, and you can always side it out (like you seemed to) if it wouldn't be as powerful during a game.

Are you really considering a total of 6 Tabernacle effects in the deck? That seems really high. I wonder if your money wouldn't be better spent getting a Ravages and having 5 Geddon effects.

I also like Suppression Field because it's fast enough to drop T1 and affects other card types. The fact that it doesn't totally prevent them from using the ability is less relevant to me: between land destruction, Tabernacle effects, and Prison effects they likely won't have much mana anyway.

If Windborn was 2/4 or maybe even 1/4 I'd more seriously consider her, but despite our Trinispheres and Chalices I'm really hesitant to use boltable critters. IMHO 4 Prison effects should be enough in the deck, especially if we use Balls/Tutors.

Re: Tutors, I'm starting to think that the poor synergy between Chalice and Tutor isn't that big of a deal. 4 times out of 5 I'd still play the Chalice first and sit on the Tutor until Chalice is removed. 1-drops are just too important in Legacy for (most) people to leave a Chalice around. I think I may try adding two each of Tutor and Ball into the deck. For those running full sets of Crucible, Smokestack, Ghostly Prison, Magus, and Trinisphere, those are obvious considerations for removal. As an upshot, we can probably get by with only 2-3 Suppression Fields in the side, and replace the Crystal Balls with them when appropriate. We'd still have Tutors for fetching them, though the chances of laying one on T1 is reduced.

Consistency involves having many copies of each spell. Burn is just about guaranteed to open with some bolts because they run 16-20 of them in the deck. That's damn consistent. What we're seeing is that we will increasingly have fewer copies of each spell because we need to fit different cards into the deck. If we really want to be able to have the right card at the right time, ETutor is pretty much the only thing that will give us that. Crystal Ball by itself will help, but digging for a 1-of or 2-of in a 50-card pile will still take forever. As a bonus, Tutors and Ball help search for each other.

Hey Guys, since nobody seems to write anything new in my most favorite thread, i decided to brake the silence and introduce my deck.

creature [5]
2 Baneslayer Angel
3 Magus of the Tabernacle

sorcery [4]
4 Armageddon

enchantment [6]
4 Ghostly Prison
2 Oblivion Ring

artifact [20]
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere

land [25]
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Plains
2 Savannah
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Aura of Silence
3 Choke
2 Karmic Justice
2 Sphere of Law
2 Suppression Field
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

As you can see, i play a rather conservative build, but in my oppinion you can´t cut down the number of your lock pieces, like trinisphere. Recently, i have been quite successfull (very lucky as my friends were telling me ;) ), here are the links to the top 8 for you, so you can check out my enimies as well.
http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?e...ercadiade+2010 //
http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?e...rg+August%2F10

Well, thats it from my side. I hope this will revieve this thread, because it would be a pity to loose the best place for discusing my most favorite deck!

I think Stax has a place in the Meta now, as aggro is slowly becoming more popular.

But, many people are finding it doesn't usually have the answers when you need them, so to speak. You're usually ending up playing with the hand you draw, and you don't have much gas/card draw throughout the game. Top is out of the question, since its CMC is one, but Crystal Ball was discussed. I've been trying the Ball out, and I've found it to be quite decent.

4 Ancient Tomb
1 Tabernacle
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 City of Traitors
1 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Wasteland
8 Plains

4 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Baneslayer Angel

4 Ghostly Prison
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Armageddon
3 Smokestack
3 Elspeth, Knight Errant
3 Trinisphere
3 Crystal Ball

Sideboard:

4 Suppression Field
2 Moat
2 Humility
3 Choke
4 Leyline of Sanctity


I know the deck is 62, so I'd need to cut one to two of the spells, but I'm raising my point here: I think we can all agree ~25 lands is the way to go, and certain cards must be a 4-of: Crucible, Mox Diamond, Chalice of the Void, and I think Ghostly Prison. Armageddon I've found I always get enough of them with 3 in the deck, and the same with Smokestack. I usually don't want to see multiples in a game. Also, Trinisphere doesn't need to be 4, even though it's good. They don't stack, unfortunately, otherwise I'd play 5-7 of them :P

The Crystal ball allows you to cheat your draws, and I've really like it whenever I've gotten it online. It allows you to filter through your stuff. The ghost quarter is there for me wasting my won stuff to search for a basic, and also for hard-locking your opponent with a Crucible lock. Horizon Canopy is there also as a Draw engine: you can keep reusing it with Crucible.

Let me know what you guys think.

-Matt

Well, I can't really comment much as I've been out of touch and haven't played Stax in forever, but I always found Smokestack to be one of the strongest cards in the deck. I basically solidifies any slight tempo edge you might have and is fully capable of keeping an opponent locked down without Crucible. It also becomes better the earlier you play it (provided you have either Crucible, enough three-drops to satisfy it for a few turns, or four mana) since your opponent's choices will be much more limited. I would cut a second Geddon before my first Smokestack.

In my oppion you should cut the Elspeth, because your ghostly prisons arent´t protecting her, also together with banslayer you have 5 cards, which you don´t want to have in your oppining hand.
Both armageddon and smokestack are in my oppion just to strong to be played less than 4 times main.
I can understand the arguments that cards like cristall ball, are good in helping you draw the right cards, but to put them into action costs you time and ressources, which are needed to bring lock pieces into position.
My main argument against them is, that they are decreasing my chances of having a broken starting hand, because I always want three mana and trinisphere first turn and than more lock pieces on hand to incresase the lock.
Multible trinispheres not really good, but you can always just sack them to an active smokestack, if you haven´t got a crucible in play yet.
Multible smokestacks can be good, just sack the active smokestack to itself and let your second one stay on zero counters until your oppenent starts to play lands again, this is exspecially good, if you already have a trinisphere in play, but no crucible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Loki

In my oppion you should cut the Elspeth, because your ghostly prisons arent´t protecting her, also together with banslayer you have 5 cards, which you don´t want to have in your oppining hand.

---

Agreed. Magus and ghostly prison work great together, as does Elspeth and moat. You should not cross boundaries between traditional white Stax and dutch Stax.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Loki

Both armageddon and smokestack are in my oppion just to strong to be played less than 4 times main.

---

Disagree. Smokestacks should not be a 4 of in the deck. It is one of the most powerful cards in the deck, but sometimes drawing multiples is bad for business.

[QUOTE=Loki;482676
I can understand the arguments that cards like cristall ball, are good in helping you draw the right cards, but to put them into action costs you time and ressources, which are needed to bring lock pieces into position.
My main argument against them is, that they are decreasing my chances of having a broken starting hand, because I always want three mana and trinisphere first turn and than more lock pieces on hand to incresase the lock.
Multible trinispheres not really good, but you can always just sack them to an active smokestack, if you haven´t got a crucible in play yet.
Multible smokestacks can be good, just sack the active smokestack to itself and let your second one stay on zero counters until your oppenent starts to play lands again, this is exspecially good, if you already have a trinisphere in play, but no crucible.[/QUOTE]

I haven't played stax in over a year now, but I can say that Crystal Ball deserves a spot in the deck, at least as a 2 of. Most good builds only run 3 Trinispheres MD, because multiples are bad to get. Crystal Ball serves as a great mechanic to filter through unwanted lands and repeated cards, such as Trinisphere, multiple crucibles, depending on match up, ghostly prison, etc. Stax is a control deck, most of the time you will play the deck against other good decks, you are not trying to lock them with 4 stacks by turn 3, and so on and so forth. The lock is gradual, and each decks you need specific cards to lock them out with. You don't want to win in 10-15 minutes with the deck (although sometimes you have to). You want the delayed 35-40 minute wins, because there is so much hate in the format against the deck (artifact/land base), that it is usually the goal to stall game 1, to draw game 2, so you can get the win (sounds dickish, but it is the strategies of the pro's).

Note: I am not a moderator, but please abuse the auto spell check on your posts (confuzin shtuff duwde)...

Don't forget Elspeth craps tokens for Smokestack in case you don't have Crucible, and allows you to win the game with a Magus.

-Matt

Magus wins the game already if you have recurring Wasteland or Geddon or Smokestack, and we've already got 10-12 of those in the deck. Elspeth also adds WW costs to the deck, which can be hard to bear. Yes it works well with Smokestack, but boosting synergies while also adding conflicts isn't a good idea.

Something like Crystal Ball fills an obvious need in the deck without directly conflicting with our other cards. Elspeth helps us exploit some cards that we already exploit, but she doesn't help us get the cards we need, and she creates other problems.

Double-posting to idle thread according to site rules. I posted this somewhere else, but would like feedback from a wider audience:

I've been continuing to think more about the two "flex creature slots" in the deck (see my previous thoughts here). When I think about what the deck needs to improve more than anything else, it's getting the right card at the right time. The answer to this problem is also the most ignored options: Knight of the Reliquary and Crystal Ball. Here's my attempt to integrate both:


Mana (29)
4 Mox Diamond
4 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Nomad Stadium

Support (8)
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Crystal Ball
2 Knight of the Reliquary

Lock Pieces (23)
4 Armageddon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere
2 Oblivion Ring


First of all, I considered the ramifications of the Knight. Compared to the most popular option of Angels, he can get bigger, but he has to fight through the ground war, he doesn't offer life gain, and he's dependent on the splash. The last problem will have to be tested to see how bad it really is. Lifegain can be achieved by tutoring/recurring Nomad Stadium, though we'd really rather be doing something else with our time. With regards to fighting on land, it's a lot less likely to give accidental wins like Exalted Angel can, but he's still very capable as a late-game finisher after you've wiped the board. Quick note about win-more: it's absolutely necessary when piloting Stax in competitive play. Getting a lock is not the same as winning the entire match within the allotted time.

The real reason he's even being considered is the tutor/toolbox capability. I can see that finding Flagstones, Wasteland, Factory, Canopy, Karakas, and Stadium can all be very useful plays depending on the circumstances. The fact that the tutored land comes into play normally (usually untapped) is just amazing, and can result in surprise mana and effects that will be hard to anticipate. Out of the side, Bojuka Bog can be added to the toolbox for attacking yards. The problem is that the mana cost combined with the summoning sickness results in middle to late game tutoring. Still significant, but I can see it sometimes being too little too late. Testing will tell.

The other obvious difference in my list is the addition of three Crystal Balls. To fit them, I took out an Oblivion Ring, a Trinisphere, and a Crucible. I feel worst about the Trinisphere and Crucible. Crucible plays a major role in the deck, and reducing the chances of getting that capability is extremely dangerous. On the other hand, it's not useful in multiples, the need for it is slightly diminished by Knight's tutoring, and the Balls help find the three remaining copies. As for Trinisphere, I've always run four. It's our best first turn play against pretty much any deck in the format, multiples are nice to protect against removal such as Pridemages and Grips, and multiples can be used as more food for Smokestack. The problem with cutting one is that you want to see it early, whereas Crucible can come online later and still have a large effect on the game.

Overall, this is the closest I've seen anyone come to actually trying to solve the problem of getting the wrong cards. The added dependence on a color splash is an obvious concern, as is the decreased speed because we're spending mana and time on permanents that don't directly lock down the board. The ultimate question is whether these downsides outweigh the benefits of Scrying and tutoring to help us draw the right card at the right time. Hopefully I'll be able to sleeve this up and get some playtesting in to see how it compares to a more traditional 2-Angel build.

(If we're going this route anyway, having a Tabernacle land somewhere in the 75 makes a LOT of sense. Unfortunately, I don't have one.)

P.S. Lands found in recent top finishers from deckcheck:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...thkey=CN-7-ZgF

P.P.S. I notice that this land distribution gives me more white mana than almost any other Stax deck, which should be great for World Queller or Angels. I need more green, but running fewer than 4 basic Plains seems strange to me.

we just had our Philippine Legacy Open wherein i used White_stax (3-3-1)
i managed to win against slivers,dredge and BGw rock.
lost to GW aggro, naya zoo and URg fae. draw with another fae-punishing fire deck.

i just used the straight white stax deck.
i had the opportunity to include the crystall ball and magus tabernacle but i opted not too
because it will not help me in locking my opponent's board and as regards with magus, well
i felt then that chipping my opponent's life by two pts at a time- i might not be able to get the win needed.
so i went exalted angel instead in my MD and put golem in the SB.
:P

*cheers everyone! enjoy the beauty of locking

It seems that your aggro matchups could have been helped by Magus. Not only does he prevent the buildups of large armies, he's also a very capable blocker. Having had this experience, have you considered adding him back in? How many Angels and Golems did you use? What did your sideboard look like? The more details the better. =) Thanks!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kirbysdl

It seems that your aggro matchups could have been helped by Magus. Not only does he prevent the buildups of large armies, he's also a very capable blocker. Having had this experience, have you considered adding him back in? How many Angels and Golems did you use? What did your sideboard look like? The more details the better. =) Thanks!

---

magus should have been great. :)
next legacy tournament, i'll definietely
replace the angels with magus

i used 3 angels in my MD.
2 golems were in the SB.

i normally bring-in the golems against blue base decks.

my sb cards were:
4 suppression field
4 relic of progenitus
2 loadstone golem
3 oblivion ring
2 Day of judgement

how does yours?
thanks.
:)