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then why doesn't ANT have any Ants? Why doesn't It's The Fear have any creatures with Fear? (joke)
Names are names.
Which card do you guys prefer: Taurean Mauler or Sulfer Elemental? Or is it a meta call? I've been thinking about how nice it is to flash in a SE, but Mauler can be a game winner if unanswered. Or is there a new 3 drop I don't know about (been a year since I've played DS)
Well that's dumb... JK dude, yeah who cares... I probably would not, but hey... this really isn't constructive towards the deck progression... JonStewart is nuts (no offense) he's talking about a different deck alltogether.Quote:
Originally Posted by deviant
It's the TROGDOR factor, RWAWRRRARR yeah bro..
Anyway, back on topic, I kinda like the idea of a stone rain/demolish for the hell of it that some brought up a few months back, IDK probably lame.
At this point I think there is two ways to go, a: go for fast combo-y consistency of trying to dump the hand fast and easy, with RPD and Raiders FTW. Otherwise b: more 'classic' list with the slogger main for more of a definite lock/control goal, both lists play seething song (like I said... nuts(no offense)) to power out the beats/lock fast, hard, and early.
I took approach A, really like it a real real bunch I cut back to 6 moon effects, no slogger for 3 lotus petal and 2 Jitte (my list is a few pages back september-ish) The main goal of my build is to obv. get out the beats quick, with the ability to establish a consistent lock on the side, a plan 'b' as it were. I've had great results, I did it to wreck evagreen/rock, it's pretty quick, less mulligans, more consistent. Recently showed up with a sword of light and shadow in the main haha good times.
B is still entirely viable I feel, moons are as good as ever, more concerned with the lock/wall of slogger.
Anyway... comment on the deck prog. not different decks in every way with entirely different curves and the only cards that are the same being tomb,city,chalice... honestly, they have their own thread!
Mauler all the fucking way!!! fish baby, although if you have lots of landstill, sulfur elemental would be good, at least in the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by chokin
I agree, the name isn't even important.Quote:
Originally Posted by deviant
and to Jon again, metalworker is already put in the MUD STOMPY deck. now for the last time, MUD STOMPY has a thread of its own. using the ancient tomb, city of traitors mechenic to power out artifacts is another deck altogether, and frankly, this mechanic is better in blue b/c it can also work off of tezzerator.
That's the last time i'll comment on jon putting a mud stompy varient in this thread.
-------
As for the mathchups, I just want to note that I do think zendikar indirectly improved the DS games. They push more heavily for fetch lands to be used. I think the only semisolid deck to emerge out of zendikar has been the milling deck with archive trap and hedron crab.
As for keeping RPD or its name, I don't really mind keeping either. I use the name DS, but the dragon is ditchable as long as there's a better alternate. so far, i don't like the other alternates enough to change.
in terms of land d. i've tried it, but haven't been able to make it work efficiently enough.
Link?Quote:
Originally Posted by mercs
Dragon Stompy does not have much room for innovations. As stated before, it is a metagame deck. If one feels a metagame is "ripe for the picking," then D.S. is a good choice, but playing it without knowing the metagame is being shortsighted. Expecting results out of D.S. when there does not exist a favorable metagame is ludicrous.
Dragon Stompy is just what most people call it because of the iconic RPD in its early incarnations. But we should not be so foolish to refuse even questioning EACH AND EVERY CARD CHOICE. If a card just isn't good enough anymore, then kick it. That said, I'd never cut the Dragon nor Slogger, but not because they're too good, but because there are no alternatives.
So, I guess we have argued enough about the name.
My list at the moment:
//mana sources (30)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain
4 Seething Song
4 Simian Spirit Guide
//beaters (17)
1 Akroma, Angel of Fury
4 Arc-Slogger
2 Flametongue Kavu
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
2 Sulfur Elemental
//lock pieces (13)
2 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Trinisphere
//sideboard
1 Akroma, Angel of Fury
4 Shattering Spree
2 Sulfur Elemental
4 Sulfurous Blast
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere
Some choices might seem weird to you, but I'll try to explain:
NO Jitte Sure, Jitte + beater = broken.
But most of the time you won't get both, and having an equipment while all your creatures get removed somehow just sucks. Another creature could just attack, Jitte can't. So I've completely abandoned equipments for more guys. So far I have not missed them...
Akroma
She's a bomb, but 2x main is just too much. On the other hand, there are many W/U decks around here, so I want to be able to have her twice.
Sulfur Elemental
A good amount of Landstill variants around here makes them worth running. But again, they're too small for the full playset main.
No Taurean Mauler
For me he hasn't been good - although I really like this second (pseudo) dragon, I wanted to give a chance to Kavu and Elemental. And I'm still testing, so he might just get back in if Elemental or Kavu proves lame.
6 Moons
On the one hand this is due to the fact, that I don't possess more. But on the other hand, I always felt like two Blood Moons being enough - I've once borrowed a third for sideboard, but there it stayed for the whole tournament.
FTK
Is a test slot. They might become more or I might cut them - I don't know yet.
Sulfurous Blast
A relic from the good old days of mana burning. I like, that you can adjust the amount of damage so that maybe your RPD survives, but next time this will become Volcanic Fallout. Uncounterability beats (slight) versatility.
What do you think?
i dunno who invented merfolk but that deck just messes me up every time i go to play DS. (fell my frustration if possible)
heres the build i'm thinking of going for next tournament.
4 rakdos pit dragon
4 gathan raiders
4 flametongue kavu
4 magus of the moon
2 sulfur elemental
4 simian spirit guide
3 seething song
4 char
2 blood moon
3 jitte
4 chalice of the void
4 chrome mox
10 mountain
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
my main concern is i've never piloted the deck without arc slogger and especially trinisphere which i'm regulating to the sideboard (but that a lot of space to be taken up in side, 4 trini.) without them low cost tempo thresh might become trouble some.
to make up for slogger i went with char.
4 flametongues may seem very heavy but i've been seeing a lot of creatures lately. from the big merfolks to zoo, painter servant, sower of temptation. (to even warmonk and sometimes goblins.) (makes me wonder if this is the right answer or not.)
The main point to cutting Arc Slogger is to cut Seething Song.
Seething Song isn't a particularly good card. People like to compare it to Dark Ritual but it's not comparable. Only very rarely do you get to Seething Song turn one. And there is a world of difference in the power level between consistently getting two extra mana on turn one as Dark Ritual lets you do, and getting two extra mana or turn two or turn three as is what happens the vast majority of the time with Seething Song (the Chrome Mox + Ancient Tomb + Seething Song three card combo doesn't happen anywhere near as often as people claim it does).
If you have 3 mana, you can play a decent threat instead of seething song and not have to suffer card disadvantage. And playing the card makes the deck inconsistent since doing so makes you too mana heavy and threat lite. The only cards that make Seething Song remotely worthwhile are Arc Slogger and SOFI (and RPD but that's often win more). But they also add inconsistency because they cost so much to play.
Thus, overall, I think replacing all the 5cc threatss from the deck with 3cc/4cc threats, and replacing Seething Songs (maybe for a permanent mana source + more threats) would make the deck far more consistent. Cutting Trini and Moon effects from your deck completely is also a pretty big mistake IMO. I wouldn't ever play 4 Char. Char isn't a good card (you're spending three mana and yet only netting two damage), way worse than Lightning Bolt or if you're concerned about Chalice, then I would honestly play a Rift Bolt or two before I would ever play Chars).
In short, here's my suggested build...
A More Consistent Dragon Stompy
//threats
3/4 rakdos pit dragon
4 gathan raiders
4 flametongue kavu
2 sulfur elemental
2 tauren mauler
4 simian spirit guide
3 jitte
//disruption
4 chalice of the void
4 magus of the moon
4/3 blood moon
3 trinisphere
//mana
4 chrome mox
11 mountain
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
Don't skimp on the disruption package. It's the whole reason you play this deck. If moon effects aren't that gamebreaking in your meta, then just play another deck. Without the disruption, the threat base is otherwise pretty mediocre. If you draw multiples of a disruption piece, you can always chuck it to Gathan Raiders, or if it's a moon effect, to Chrome Mox.
Such a build is more consistent AND more disruptive than the majority of the lists people post in here. It's not perfect, but I think it moves the deck in the right direction. I even had the room to up the red count to 15 sources instead of 14, to make it more likely you'll always have atleast one red source in your hand.
u got a point there, i'll cut it for something. Unfortunately it is cemented in my head as u describe, which is a bad thing without arch slogger. leaning towards putting back in the trini, but mauler not bad either.
Thanks. Yeah, try it out. I definately think you'll like this approach a lot more.
You will be seeing a lot more keepable hands, and will lose to yourself less often with a list like that. You're never going to be short on red mana sources, and you're never going to be lacking in threats either, you're almost always going to see three threats and 1-2 disruption pieces early every game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Stewart
1. Sulfur elemental is terrible, unless you see lots of landstill
2. FTK, is kind of a do nothing card, most times the 4 dmg is like 'OK, whatever, my 5/6 goyf takes 4 dmg' hardly consistent, unless you play against a ton of merfolk with double lords in play, I've never had problems against fish, never ran FTK -> it's not even a win more card.
3. I really don't have the consistency issues that I have read a lot of the people here have, maybe it's my individual build (cutting slogger has really helped) maybe it's the fact that I spend 5+min a match shuffling.
4. Seething song is awesome, It's the great facilitator, it's the only way you can power out big plays fast. In my build, I get t1 song's often (roughly as often as one playing blue can turn 0/1 FoW) could be my build, probably. But song, is important, it's not about 5cc spells, its about accel. plain and simple.
As always, my findings are based on vast testing, with an extremely high winning %age. worst tourney showing with this deck (current build) 5-2, the one caveat to this: as always depends on local/area meta, if I was in your (or anyone else's) area I would likely have a different build.
I've played the deck and done thousands of test hands, and seething song is fairly consistent on turn 1 if you have it.
It takes one of the two tapping lands (8/60) along with a chrome mox [as well as something to imprint] or a SSG (8/60) and a seething song (4/60) explode with. Or, it can take a mountain, a combination of 2 within chrome mox/SSG, and a seething song, along with something to explode with.
Not to mention a turn 2 seething song can be great as well.
I don't see anybody comparing it to dark ritual.
Why are you taking seething song out of dragon stompy? This deck dies to superior non-clunky pieces of crap if it relies on the strength of "awesome" cards like Sulfur Elemental and Rakdos Pit Dragon. These cards are horrible outside of this finely-tuned engine.
I would argue against the prison pieces being essential to the deck, especialy trinisphere. DS can't capitalize on trinisphere that much. They are just one angle of attack the deck can take. If you want to play prison, go play stax.
Like you said, if the deck doesn't work for you as it is, you should probably find and play a different deck, because hundreds of testers have agreed that seething song (and almost always arc-slogger) are the right cards to play IN THIS ARCHETYPE (not that they are good in general). From what it sounds like you should maybe just go play Stax.
I feel merfolk is the most beatable out of the tribals (elf, gobs, and merfolk).Quote:
Originally Posted by Shanghi Knights
I think u hit the nail on the head that your trinis need to come back. Theck take out the counters in merfolk and facilitate access for your removal post board. can't leave home w/o it in heavy merfolk meta. Merfolk's worse fear is actually red, so be confident.
As for the seething song, slogger situation, everyone will have different opinions. I personally agree with gobsonmac, Creatures have gotten too big for FTK. Plus, first turn slogger can go coast to coast on MR gobs, bu flametongue can't even come out 4th turn. On a consistency basis, it's better, but you guys kno how i feel about consistency.
Finally, just a heads up, in my area, dark depths + hexmage is revving up like crazy in extended and is being well facilitated in legacy w/ living wish, so that comment i made about undying flames being gg for eva green/rock doesn't apply so much anymore. u definitely need to drop a moon first, or not side it at all cuz u usually need 3 hits w/ the flames. if marit lage pops out, it's gg. If this combo gets out of hand, i'm gonna test act of treason effects, cuz that's a slap to face. and plz, if you guys have consistent ideas about this, plz voice. we don't need to talk about the little stuff.
Threaten/Act of Treason seems like a good answer to a 20/20 token... I do not know anyone playing depths right now though, so it will be awhile before I can test the mu... seems like a good call on paperQuote:
Originally Posted by mercs
The only problem with that, Gibsonmac, is that we have to both draw the sideboard hate AND not get it affected by the dark depths disruption package. Cards like pyrokinesis and the like are good because we can cast them in the face of disruption, and a sideboard card like pithing needle usually comes down right away.
I'm not sure DS really has an effective answer to the combo other than moons/chalice at 2.
Not really. FTK is still enough to kill and 2 for 1 your opponent the majority of the beaters in the format, just not Goyf. Creatures are more popular than they've ever been, and not all of them are Goyf. Even with Goyfs, yes sure you have 4/5 and 5/6 goyfs around. But FTK is still enough to kill them after they block 2/2 Simian Spirit Guide or some other creature.Quote:
Originally Posted by mercs
Any competent player will not fall for 'block your 2/2 with my goyf, shit its dead' it just doesn't happen... ever... And while creatures are popular now, the only one that matters is goyf, its in every deck, and often times its one of only two or maybe three creatures, the other one having shroud, or being a 5/5 flying daemon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Stewart
Sure FTK can take out a nacatl, or a kird ape, hell even a thoctar. Zoo is really the only deck where FTK is going to be relevant, and it isn't horrible to begin with, so why? Pyrokenesis is sooooo much better here.
FTK also has merits in the goblin/merfolk matchup, two other DTBs at the moment.
Not to mention he does have a certain pwnage of randomness factor (random things like ichorid, survival, elves, faeries, whatever people think is somehow competitive).
The only other option to Ftk would maybe be breath of darigaaz but that knocks my own creatures out. Dropping the chars for main boarded Pyrokinese might give me that extra damage to kill stuff bigger than 4. The I lose any direct player damage cards, which being able to slogger for 6 is something i do miss in the deck.
Not to mention that a fair amount of time, you will be playing FtK turn 2 or turn 3, during which time Goyf is often just a 3/4 and can sometimes even be a 2/3.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoulQ
And not to mention all the other stuff that FTK hits in addition to the above quote...
Dark Confidant
metalworker
nantuko shade
everything in fairie stompy
Hypnotic S
sower of temptation
etc etc
add to that the huge resurgance of tribal aggro from elves and goblins to merfolk and even vampires recently, and zoo...
FTK is still one of the better creatures in the game and one of the very best creatures this deck has access to.
I have never played against an opponent who dropped a 2/3 goyf, not anytime recently anyway, pretty much everyone waits till they are at least 3/4, but mostly 4/5Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Stewart
And all those other creatures fall faster and harder to pyrokenesis, 4 dmg that can hit 1-4 creatures
How you would ever rate the card as one of the best creatures in the game is far beyond my comprehension, I guess thats why LSV and Nassif, Cheon, Chapin, etc etc. 4 of FTK in every build.
And like I said, tribal is not difficult as it is, FTK can hit 1 creature period, pyrokenesis hits at least 2 in those mu's
I see 2/3 goyfs fairly often. But yeah, I'm not arguing in favor of FTK. Then again, it is decent against Zoo and Merfolk, the two most popular decks in legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibsonmac
Read post, it works but there are better options, there are a lot of cards that can 'work' in a given situation, it doesn't mean its the only or best card for that situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by keys
Yes but 3/4 Goyfs and 2/3 Goyfs aren't the only things FTK hits.
I don't know why you NEVER see 2/3 or 3/4 goyfs. I see them all the time. Smart players will drop a goyf against Dragon Stompy asap, even if it's just a 2/3 anytime they don't have access to a basic forest or run a curve would be hurt by a Chalice at 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Stewart
Of course it's situational. But in many situations, when playing against Dragon Stompy, one of the worst moves a player can make is to sit on a Goyf esp when they don't have access to a basic forest because a moon effect or a Chalice at 2 can easily obselete it later and cost them the game.
Pyrokinesis isn't comparable to FTK. Yes it's more flexible. But it forces you to discard another key red card (ie. a threat) to use it in a deck that is already sometimes too light on threats. If it doesn't hit atleast two opposing threats, its also card disadvantage.
FTK on the other hand is card advantage. As a 4/2 it's an extremely aggressive and large threat that puts your opponent on a clock as well.
The point of the deck much? kinda want to have the hand empty, hellbent is kind of what makes the deck good, makes discard irrelevant... that's, dare I say, more-so the reason I like pyro to other options, because of how well it facilitates this goal... all the creatures kinda suck with cards in your hand (the ones that matter, GR RPD) The point of the deck is that card disadvantage(actual) is its bread and butter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Stewart
Making the whole deck's point revolve around RPD is a bad idea imo. You're not going to see RPD every game, and most of the time, RPD is going to be the first target for all your opponents removal.
Besides, you're better off getting hellbent by playing out your hand to give you more threats on the table, rather than discarding it away and putting all your eggs in one basket, hoping RPD sticks around long enough to finish the job.
I esp hate that Pyro makes you discard a red card, which means that you'll usually be discarding a threat. If you can discard an excess land, or equipment or whatever you wanted, it would be so much better.
Again, I've got to give my agreeance to gibsonmac.
Although FTK is good, it just makes our good matchups better. (As i've mentioned b4 about other things).
-FTK is good against merfolk, yes, but that's the most beatable tribal in the game.
-It can kill an elf, yes, but killing one elf in elfball isn't anywhere near significant, as elves pitch their guys for bloackers all the time. they can combo off 1 elf short with the staff anyways. killing 4 elves w/ pyrokinesis is much better. having a slogger to take out 3-4 while pounding w/ a clock is better too.
Again, the reason i posted an update on mathcups is to fix our bad ones, not our good ones.
The creatures we hate are BIG goyfs, progenitus, tombstalker, dreadnaught, maybe marit lage, magus of the tabernacle, iona, and a sized up countryside crusher/terravore.
Now, the whole idea is that, once the toughness hits 5, it's a pain in the ass b/c u sacrifice 2+ cards for 1 soln. All these creatures hit tournie play a lot, and we cannot fight them off with ftk. we are the most succeptablt to losing to these decks, and running into ftk just feels useless.
The only matchup that turns "semi-bad" to "ok" is zoo. all others aare just changed from "ok/good" to "better".
I think you both have solid points.
FTK is great against zoo and merfolk, as well as goblins, and can hold its own against randomness.
What Jon Stewart says about the goyf thing is truth. People are going to play out their win cons against DStompy because the deck traditionally doesn't run much removal in the first place.
That's why boarding in pyrokinesis has been advocated by some even for decks like Nassiftop because 4 damage can often be enough against an early goyf.
Actually, merfolk, with its one color manabase, wasteland, aether vial, force on our turn 1 play, and by god daze, is not a good matchup I don't think. Not bad, but definitely not one of our better matchups.
Zoo is not a good matchup either. They have so much removal for our creatures and Qasali Pridemage is god against us.
Goblins is likewise somewhat unfavorable. They have the late game advantage and their lackeys stick way too much for comfort. They also run a monocolor manabase, or a very light splash, in addition to a waste+port engine that wrecks us. The addition of instigator forces us to answer more than just the 4 lackeys, and is not answerable with turn 1 chalice, and makes this matchup much more difficult. In addition, if they are running the green splash, they have access to 2-fer-1er Tin Street Hooligan, as well as the standard krosan grip.
FTK is very strong in all three of these matchups. He's also good in ichorid (lol, and not just for killing himself), and can hold his own against the dread rhox war monk out of bant. He deals with confidant which can be a gameender if that engine goes online, because they can have enough time to draw their answer against us: basically, the anti-strategy of this deck. If confidant online that doubles their chance to draw an answer to our plethora of questions. It also kills sower, a gamewinner for the other side. It helps keep Progenitus off the table. It deals with many of Survival critters and its Rofellos engine. We should at least look at him for SB. In addition to 4 pyrokinesis, I think, 2 FTK would really help all the aforementioned matchups.
I think you guys shouldn't throw it out just because this is the same guy who suggested Su-Chi. I mean, I haven't really tested it, but it seems obviously good in certain matchups. And Jon Stewart, while I basically agree with you that FTK deserves another look, I think reaching hellbent is sort of this deck's goal. It happens naturally the way the deck is built anyways. This is dragon stompy, not red stax.
Have you actually played the deck? honest question. You do see RPD or Raiders pretty much every game, shuffle the hell out of the thing. So do you hate chrome mox then, you have to imprint a red card, a 'threat' it kinda makes the deck work better though. once RPD hits play, they usually a a turn or two to live, which happens often times, for me, turn 1-3... maybe the inconsistencies for you are based on the fact you're trying to go against the basic strategy of the build, and I'm not saying it's the ONLY correct way to play it, but it works. Try 3cc red stompy if you're not feeling DS, this deck isn't a 'toolbox' with answers for everything, it powers out game breaking threats, that if go unanswered for a turn or two is gg. try a classic build, how it's 'meant' to be played for awhile (you've probably done this already) then make adjustments, but the gg threats like RPD need to have no cards in hand ASAP, and a chalice at 1 turn 1 followed by RPD is usually gg, which happens fairly often (as often as a blue deck can force with daze backup) you do typically play 4 of each.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Stewart
very true, it is alright in those mu's, but is it the best option? not sure, but at this point I do not believe so.Quote:
Originally Posted by FoulQ
I hate that aspect of Chrome Mox. Absolutely. I hate having to discard a key red card like Blood Moon or RPD or Raiders to Chrome Mox the many games when those are the only red cards in my hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibsonmac
The fact that you already play Chrome Mox is all the more reason to be weary of Pyrokinesis. You already RFG your weakest red card to Chrome Mox. If you have to RFG another red card to Pyrokinesis, it's usually going to have to be a key card that you really really want to play, like Blood Moon or Raiders, or RPD or something else.
The thing is Chrome Mox, is fundamentally important to the deck. It speeds the whole deck up by a full turn. So you don't have any decent alternative. But Pyrokinesis on the other hand is NOT fundamentally important to the deck. There are tons of alternatives, like FTK for example.
Have you? honest question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibsonmac
If you have, you would know how inconsistent the deck (yes, I am talking about the standard build) can be. Even assuming your false claim that you see RPD and Raiders every game is true. There are plenty of situations where the only red cards in your hand are Pyrokinesis, Blood Moon, and either RPD or some other gamebreaking red card. You are going to have to discard a game breaking card, either one that completely shuts down your opponents entire mana, or the threat that will win you the game to Pyrokinesis if you want to use it.
If you don't want to discard one of these bombs, or if you topdeck Pyro, Pyrokinesis is usally the card that gets stuck in your hand and that you can't get rid of for hellbent.
@ Gibsonmac, yes I was implying that we probably should have more than 4 cards in our SB for the aggro matchup, as it is the most popular archetype now, and we have pretty good game against a lot of control (4 pithing needle sb already) and combo (usually trinispheres somewhere in the 75). So moving past pyrokinesis I think FTK is the next best option if we want to go to 5-8 anti-aggro weapons in our SB. Maindeck I dunno, I haven't really tested.
good call, 5-8... prolly next best optionQuote:
Originally Posted by FoulQ
Hey guys,
Just posting a tounament report of my DS failures. I believed i had a good list, but am now eating humble pie.
OK first match: BGW rock (splash natural order!)
First game, he started, busted out a noble hierarch. i resolved a trinisphere. he plays another hierarch i play chalice at 2, thinking i'd sealed up a lot of spells. He pops out a natural order, surprises the crap out of me and i have to scoop.
Game to, i crap out and mull to 4. his plays were hierarch, quasali, goyf, goyf. no chance w/ one land.
0-2
record: 0-1-0
I scout and realize the meta hates me. there was more than a handful of zoo, good amount of ichorid, but luckily some thresh.
Second match: GBW Doran
Game 1, She starts. plays hierarch, goyf, quasali and discards away to dominate me and my 1 turn to short of a hand. (first turn makes a world of difference)
Game 2, first turn magus - coast to coast with a little help from ssg.
Game 3, she plays. doesn't resolve anything first turn. i drop chalice at one and mauler. she can't swords, and plays goyf. i had burn to back me up, so mauler and gathan raiders just get to bicg and overwhelm. i don't remember, but i think i also resolved a magus to keep her down.
2-1
Record: 1-1-0
Game 3: Merfolk
First game, resolve a chalice at 1, go for chalice at 2 twice, but 2 foW get in the way. i get a blood moon and taurean mauler down, whil he gets 2 LoA out and lock up w/ a standstill. i only have one creature, so i wait to draw akroma. 20 turn later, i crap draw into only 2 decent creatures and he brings out too many lords and wins that turn when he breks his own standstill.
Second game, chalice one, chalice two, mauler. he tries a couple 3 drops, but they get burned(kinesis) and pump the mauler. game.
3rd game, no first drop (i think he wanted to daze or counter an early chalice. second turn, i think he resolved a creature. It didn't matter though, b/c i resolved a second turn akroma. His deck was good, but merfolk is our easiest tribal mu.
2-1
record:
2-1-0
4th match: fearies
I faced this guy before, so i was pretty sure i was in for a loss.
first game, blood moon resolves - coast to coast.
second game, chalice and slogger resolve. He dazes just so i'd resolve it. genius by him cuz it allows him to sower it. i try resolving another, a trini, and a proclasm, but they eat a handful of counter.
3rd game, i probably should have mulled, but i tried it. first turn slog meets fow. goyf hits play. 2 magus come after. firespout seals him the game.
1-2
record: 2-2-0
At this time i can only win the next two to try to tiebreak.
5th match: Pro Bant/survival
First game: 1st turn trini, mauler, and magus seal the game. also had a raiders, but he wasn't needed.
Second game, a lot of counter. survival engine was churning, and i was eating monks goys, and whatnot with flying.
3rd game, fed him a trinisphere. he bit. 3rd turn akroma outraced his goyfs (w/ the help of tormod's crypt :D).
2-1
Record: 3-2-0
This next one was do or die to at least reach tiebreakers.
6th match: ZOO! one of the many. i really thought about scooping.
first match, 1st turn blood moon, he gets a lavamancer. I hold him down w/ a trini and pop a dragon. swing for 10, no blocks hoping to score a land or burn. second turn i play like i can't cast it (a little acting needed on my part) swing, reveal spirit guide, and score 12 more damage.
Second match, nactl verse chalice at one. take 3 and drop a slogger next turn. he drops a small goyf, but counters his own path to make it bigger. i throw away 20 cards to kill it and trade blows w/ nactl and resolve a magus (useless tho cuz he got 2 basics). he's almost out of a hand. he grips chalice, bolts my magus, and paths my slogger. i debate for a bit while on stack and decide to kill the nactl with him handless. I run into a raiders. him a quasali. i misplay and play a pithing needle on quasali. he gets a lavamancer, but misplays by not blocking and trying to kill my raiders. (i did more acting, playing like i had an instant). he was low on life, so he had to use grim to chump, but shot me. i played a magus, and he drew a few land. then he scooped.
2-0
record: 4-2-0
I found out that my opponents didn't do much to help me out. a few of my opponents faced eachother, and others lost to the like of stifle naught and ichorid. (why can't i ever face ichorid :( ). Only one 4-2 makes it in top 8. I end up 12. ULTRA FAIL!!!
Sorry guys. I thought I'd do better, but the meta right now is kinda tuff. I was surprised that progenitus rock didn't fair well (2-4). i guess the counterballances got to him. DORAN(1-3-drop) wasn't consistent enough to pass the balance either. merfolk and got hurt by stiflenaught. probant dropped after losing to me. so zoo and fearies were the only thing keeping my tiebreaker score high. Fearies lost to ichorid and finished 4-2. SUX
In the end, zoo pwned the t8 placings. i didn't stick around. ichorid placed, and i think a stax went through too. idk what else. again, sry guys, but the mu that day was brutal.
Here's my decklist guys:
4 magus of the moon
3 blood moon
4 cotv
3 trinisphere
4 gathan raiders
4 chrome mox
4 simian spirit guide
4 seething song
2 umezawa jitte
3 rakdos pit-drgon
3 arc slogger
3 taurean mauler
1 akroma, angel of fury
10 mountains
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tombs
SB:
-3 tormod's crypt (semi usefull, but i never met ichorid! so manyof 'em too!)
-3 pyrokinesis (always helps)
-2 pyroclasm (semi unneeded. could never resolve it, but it's necessary for elves and gobs that were there)
-2 shattering spree (actually never used. aether vial, shackles and jitte kept their distance w/ chalice and moon out.)
-1 Akroma, angel of Fury (twice my savior! could've easily been 2-4 instead of 4-2 w/o it)
-2 anarchy (not used, although it would've been helpful against the progenitus, bant and doran. i just beat them or never saw it. sux.
-2 pithing needle. (never used unfortunately. i wanted to use undying flames, but again, with progenitus and marit lage surfacing, you can't risk it.
so far there are a few sb spots that need adjusting. idk about needles.maybe more burn is needed, but not for sure.i need new solutions when green beats gets out of hand. the goyfs are always out of disance. and kitchen finks hurts. when backed up with removal, it's hard to keep pace. This i'm feeling is a bigger issue than i credited it for now that it's tempo is really high.
the fearies was built like can thresh. nothing much to do. but removal hurt it. ill think about it. If you guys have any ideas, let me know! hope this was helpful/insightful!
I'd cut akroma, 1-ofs suck in this deck, plus you don't really wanna curve out above 5, I'd rec. another moon, jitte, or RPD in its place
I've actually playtested a lot w/o it. I find that it's really up to the meta and how u play around ur matchups. again, akroma was the only thing to save me against bant. it also was instant win against merfolk for me for the second tournament over here. I'm ok if some people don't like it, but honestly, i don't think i want to remove it from my list. I just saw 2 progenitus decks in the tournie, and went 1/2. I'm not really sure how much play that other rock progenitus version is going to reach play either. Here's the problem i have with the cards i've filled w/ akroma.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibsonmac
moon. often unneeded. In the rock matchup, i never ran into akroma, so i wouldn't have run into the moon. i feel i could've been competitive in that match if i didn't mull out to death.
another jitte. My meta had way too much zoo, ichorid, control so the issue of resolving threats is too critical in my meta. Jitte's become a good thing to most of my opponents b/c it acts like a free discard. they don't have to worry about it if i don't have a body for it.
the pit dragon. the pit dragon was good in some cases, but against the heavy control, i wanted to go for a sure thing. I'd need to pump out acceleraters regardless to play a pit dragon. the key was that akroma was uncounterable and untrgetable in most cases. pit dragon would be easily bolted/ pathed/ countered. the same is not for akroma.
Yea, she's a one-of, but she gave me 2/4 of my wins that night single handedly and never became a nuisance. It's just my choice to keep her.
I just want to know the main weakness against Can thresh. The can thresh/ fearies guy has already went 2-1 against me twice. I've only seen him lost to goblins, survival, and ichorid. I don't really share any themes with any of them.
-Ichorid has too much uncounterable aggro. I only have akroma.
-Goblins has crazy aggro + massive recovery. I have semi-aggro to no recovery (and i really doubt 1 pit dragon will make that difference, no offense).
-survival has unbelievable recover/recursion. Again, i have 0 recovery and 0 recursion.
Canadian Thresh is neither a cakewalk nor impossible. Like all matches with DS, the most important thing you can do is win the die roll. From there, here are your strong points.
1. A fast Chalice at 1 shuts off a huge portion of their deck. If you lead with it and it sticks, the game shoots heavily in your favor, and as long as you can back it up with enough somethings to deal with their Tarmogoyfs, you're in good shape.
2. Getting down Blood Moon (Not Magus, who's far less useful in this matchup without a Chalice-1 backup) before they get a threat down wins you the game.
And while sometimes there's nothing you can do to stop Tempo Thresh from wiping the floor with you, here's some things to be aware of.
1. Don't put yourself in a position where a Stifle on a Chrome Mox in game 1 can shut down your manabase. Stifle is very weak against Dragon Stompy, and they will do this to you freely if given the chance.
2. Know when to and when not to dodge Daze. If they don't have a single threat down? You can afford to not walk your massive threat into Daze. If they're putting the pressure on, however, sometimes you have to just not fear it. It's also worth noting that if a Canadian Thresh -ever- has 0 untapped lands and you're holding a Dazeable Chalice? Play it. If they Daze it they Daze it, but their Spell Snares hit -only- your Chalice at 1, so don't do any more than necessary to enable an otherwise dead card for them. Better they spend the better counter on your Chalice.
thx tacos. I do feel that out of all the thresh, this one goes about 60-40 to them whereas the others are 65-70% DS. I just get frusterated b/c i debate how i should play them. I was able to pull off game one, but some smart plays and good counters allowed him to take 2 and 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Sometimes i want to side out magus and trinisphere. maybe even go straight aggro-bloodmoon-chalice. other times i'm torn b/c they're solid plays. unlike bant, they have an abundance of counters (sometimes up to 15). and enough removal to piss me off. backed up w/ sowers forces me to play removal. I've got about 3 SB spots i'm willing to trade, but not sure what would REALLY help the matchup.
I thought of creatures like mauler and sulfur elemental and flametongue, but they got shackles and single card removal. plus, they get a lot of 2 for one action w/ firespout. i don't know if more burn is in order.
Hi all, and sorry to necro this thread, but DS seems to be my favorite deck, and I am building it up for the 4th time now...
...as a long time DS player, I know much about this deck, and I always have read the thread and anything I could find about the deck...
...but I want to try something new with it...
IMO the heart of the deck is to screw the opponent, and then just overpower him... It's a strategy I always liked, but this strategy is the problem, because it makes the deck somewhat inconstant...
Taco sometimes tried to post constant lists, but somehow there is missing something... we have no good 2R creatures like FS has, and so the "constant lists" screw the opponents, but can't finish fast enough most of the time because of the lack of an finisher...
...so I think, we need to try something new, something like playing the good 2R Creatures + Grafted Wargear + a bit more screwing parts to push the aggro part and prevent opposing actions...
In the end, I came up with this list (but most of the ideas came from Taco all over the thread)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Trinisphere
2 Blood Moon
4 Grafted Wargear
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Sulfur Elemental
4 Taurean Mauler
2 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
8 Snow Covered Mountain
////
4 Pithing Needle
4 Boil
4 Pyrokinesis
3 ???? Pithing Needle :tongue:
I would like to put in FTK, because I really love this guy, but Goyf makes him so much worse nowadays, and the only creature I would cut are Gathans (but they are MVP), or RPD but he serves as finisher, and as a win against Moat, so I think there is no slot for FTK in "constant DS" :cry:
...so what do you guys think to improve this build?
YawG
Well, i think grafted wargear opens you up to getting 2 for 1-d.
Since most decks will be siding in K.Grip, Shattergin spree (loam wishes after this one), or ancient grudge (this is even a 4 for 1)
I don't think playing it's such a good idea in less you play that goblin token enchantment...