[Deck] Fetchland Tendrils

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Originally Posted by Ancestral

i understand that literally its not advantage, but it tutors 5 cards of your deck... can´t be bad ahn :p

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It's a topdeck Tutor like LDV and the disadvantage adds up especially under considerations of spending Rituals or Petals to cast it in the first place. Other storm variants don't use LDV to Tutor for Ad Nauseam or PIF due to that reason. The Problem is that you create real carddisadvantage by casting Doomsday and try to resolve the Spell what makes up for the disadvantage after you already pushed all-in ... with less cards in hand to protect that spell or draw into the pile to begin with. If you use LDV to Tutor DD that's a whooping Virtual mulligan to 5 in regards to cards compared to your opponent and I doubt a compeditive deck can allow itself to do this even if we ignore the other problems (in particular: the storm iteration)

Carddisadvantage? If you cast Doomsday you win the game. Where is the disadvantage?

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

There is no point in "reviving" a concept whichs problems are still the same since years and without any new printing which affect the deck or the issues it has

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Personnally I didn't stop playing the deck because of the "same problems for years", but rather because the format's power level increased a lot and I consider omnitell to be the best combo deck.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

between the carddisadvantage,

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I don't see the point of the engine/main combo card making card disadvantage. It's a super tutor that converts your ressources into a win. By thinking exclusively in terms of card advantage or CD you would qualify show and tell as a card disadvantage card that doesn't deserve any play either.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

the reliance on Doomsday itself (and the BBB cost of casting it),

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Thanks to burning wish you don't rely on doomsday that much. I was winning a decent amount of the time with Time spiral, empty the warrens and natural storm built by draw spells and/or sensei/sensei storm. All of these have been used in doomsday piles but it also is used to win without doomsday.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

not being able to win w/o a hand and endless shit more.

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I won a ton of time without a hand, that's a strength of sensei.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

There is also absolutely no reason to play this as a Tendrils deck over having LabMan as the wincon (mainly because of adressing the problems with remaining hand/hatebears/stormcount)

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Well I guess at least deathrite shaman and abrupt decay would be a start.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

since the printing of Past in Flames which offered the life-independant win-con (compared to Ad Nauseam) Storm needed in order to go the long run in games.

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A relevant statement. Yes, I consider doomsday lost its main advantage over ANT. I haven't really played the storm decks these last two years but in my mind there was still match to determine the best deck, and if PiF storm gained the edge, it's not a big one.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Ergo, the only reason to play with the card Doomsday atm is LabMan and it's ability to ignore life total and hatebears like Canonist/Thalia.

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I don't see how you can just "ignore" Canonist or Thalia with lab man. I doubt you will get enough mana to do everything or kill with just one spell. They have a board clocking you, they have removals, they have topdecks.
But running burning wish with the mandatory massacre would help.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

lim dul is another card like doomsday which is creating carddisadvantage and I see no reason to pile up the disadvantage first by trading discard for disruption and then by LDV and Doomsday. How many cards do you expect to have in hand to work with if you drop lands/SDT but need the motherfucking Dark Ritual + Doomday + a way to draw into the pile for a win-now pile to dodge the danger of dying to your opponents Delver + Lightning Bolt?

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I played LDV in something like 2010. Was decent but yes, I wouldn't play it. Ponders and wishes are just better.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

understand me right; if you are ok with dying to Bolt and stuff

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I am not sure ad nauseam is immune to lightning bolt. If you answer "PiF" then we can find all kind of cards specifically screwing it. I almost always splashed white in doomsday and that negates a lot the post doomsday burn spell if your metagame has a lot of these. But it's still a fast deck and you don't have to be in bolt range in the first place, at least not much more than ANT/PiF storm.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

and run Rituals anyways (which do nothing in this deck unless you have DD as well),

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If your dark rituals do things for you without any engine/storm spell you are way better than me. But in this deck rituals help also with burning wish, as it would with any other engine that could be/was in the deck.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

why not run more stable options to go the long run like Dark Confidant

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I am sure you could answer that alone. But dark confidant is a slow card for this deck, it also is a creature which turns on all common removals.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

or try to accelerate your deck with Spoils of the Vault or Drift of Phantasms Transmute?

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Both are garbage in any deck.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Why has no one ever put time into the idea of adding Infernal Tutor to the LED+DR core to fetch Doomsday T1 and go for a topdeck-pile either finishing with drawing into LabMan or Shelldock?

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Infernal tutor has been played for years in doomsday. It was even in the first lists from emidln who was trying to find which split of DD/IT was the best and his conclusion was 0 IT - Max DD.
Lab man and shelldock have both been played a lot in DDFT, even if I personnally never liked Lab Man.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Why use a third color for fetching Doomsday and a wincon if options for both are in U/B?

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Burning not only fetches doomsday the combo turn like IT. It also fetches it pre combo, fetches other engines, fetches solutions and the most important, it makes the doomsday engine better just by being in the deck since playing BW-> ToA through double LED increases the storm count and provides many more turn one kills that would just deal 18 otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Why stick to the painfully slow and pointless gameplan of SDT/Doomsday/Tendrils which has so damn many weaknesses between opposing clocks/discard/hatebears? The point of playing Doomsday is giving a fuck about the common counterstrategies to combo decks and your list is an example of an idea which has proven to be not compeditive and needs to be abandoned in order to profit from Doomsday in a modern environment.

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So it's not even "not tier 1" which I could agree on, it's "proven non competitive". Well last time I played it in a big event it was in BoM 2012. Three doomsday players in the room among over 700 players. I lost in top 16 to a bad judge after beating numerous hate, you couldn't even believe it. The second player lost in top8. The last one made 7-2. If it has proven to be non competitive since then and you want me to believe you , you'll need some strong evidence or demonstration. Until then I'll consider that the main factors are the fact that so few people run it, and so few excellent players run this very demanding deck.
It was probably the best deck in the format before griselbrand's printing so I would bet on it still being a competitive deck. But you were probably already saying it was garbage at that time I guess.

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Originally Posted by Lejay

most awesome answer above

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thos

thank you so much for your thoughts about the deck and completly destroy those falsse statments ::D
after your answer i´m gonna try harder with the deck, and your sentence about the 3 players in BoM just confirms my thoughts about the deck, competetive for sure, but not many people plying it :)

about the deck i ll probably take out LDV :) you think it´s more viable to play with white now for silences or just keep BURg ? any other suggestions are wellcome :)

again, thanks a lot for the excellent answer lejay

I have to say something to defend this deck:

I think it is the unique combo deck that uses cantrips to reduce the mana invested to just combo - this is in deed a great thing.
I recognize some years have elapsed since I played the deck and when starting to playing the deck long time ago I just took it as a Case Study Deck- my goal was to reach a Top 8 and to stop to play it - I also remember that timeframe , also a friend of mine was happy to discover such Storm archetype - me and my frind reached several tops and people around us started to look in a strange way to us... there were normal people playing normal decks and then me and my friend talking about piles and strange things... I remember when I finished before him I quickly went to look his match up and the same occured backwards... we were the master of the universe... good era was that!

I could talk also in the name of my friend when I say that DDFT was likely the most difficult deck to play but it also was the best deck you could play to win a tournament with a moreless predictable metagame.

maybe someday I will take DDFT again to crush again my opp.. ha ha ha... but I'll need to invest some time to study the new piles etc etc...

I still enjoy playing TES the most and I like to predict the odds in thi but at least I dons deck... this for me is funnier and I won't say more easy to play, but at least I dont have to study the piles before the torunaments...

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Originally Posted by Lejay

Personnally I didn't stop playing the deck because of the "same problems for years", but rather because the format's power level increased a lot and I consider omnitell to be the best combo deck.

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in other words: the deck isn't able to compete on top level even among combo decks, which is what I said.

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Originally Posted by Lejay

I don't see the point of the engine/main combo card making card disadvantage. It's a super tutor that converts your ressources into a win. By thinking exclusively in terms of card advantage or CD you would qualify show and tell as a card disadvantage card that doesn't deserve any play either.

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there is a difference between "S&T + Threat" or "Dark Ritual + Doomsday + way to draw into the pile + having enough mana to do something + have a way to play around hate". Another aspect: S&T costs 3 total; how much total is a win-now-doomsday? Twice as much.

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Originally Posted by Lejay

Thanks to burning wish you don't rely on doomsday that much. I was winning a decent amount of the time with Time spiral, empty the warrens and natural storm built by draw spells and/or sensei/sensei storm. All of these have been used in doomsday piles but it also is used to win without doomsday. I won a ton of time without a hand, that's a strength of sensei.

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That is fair in regard to Burning wish to find a win aside the resolved Doomsday. The most wins I remember with the help of SDT came through Helm of Awakening ;)

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Originally Posted by Lejay

A relevant statement. Yes, I consider doomsday lost its main advantage over ANT. I haven't really played the storm decks these last two years but in my mind there was still match to determine the best deck, and if PiF storm gained the edge, it's not a big one.

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I consider this debatable, but I don't want to get lost in details about advantages of certain storm-buildarounds. It's about Doomsdays place in the evolving metagame and potential to ascend from it's "tier 2" status which I can't see without breaking out of a shell which imo didn't substantially changed for the last 5 years.

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Originally Posted by Lejay

I don't see how you can just "ignore" Canonist or Thalia with lab man. I doubt you will get enough mana to do everything or kill with just one spell. They have a board clocking you, they have removals, they have topdecks.
But running burning wish with the mandatory massacre would help.

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one of the main advantages of dismissing Ad Nauseam in storm is running Massacre postboard in your MB, and in this case including it in your DD piles to sweep the board and proceed with the compact LabMan plan. I'm well aware of the Wish as a tool to grab Massacre G1 as a TES player.

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Originally Posted by Lejay

I played LDV in something like 2010. Was decent but yes, I wouldn't play it. Ponders and wishes are just better.

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I can agree here.

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Originally Posted by Lejay

I am not sure ad nauseam is immune to lightning bolt. If you answer "PiF" then we can find all kind of cards specifically screwing it. I almost always splashed white in doomsday and that negates a lot the post doomsday burn spell if your metagame has a lot of these. But it's still a fast deck and you don't have to be in bolt range in the first place, at least not much more than ANT/PiF storm.

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Just between you and me: I have no clue why people kill themselves with Ad Nauseam other than greed or stupidity especially if they know their opponent is running Bolts. That's a mistake you maybe make once or twice as a beginner, but I don't know why that sticks as a stigma of playing Ad Nauseam. Point is that between PIF/AN/EtW storm has more than enough tools to deal with plenty of hate. Shut off the yard? Drop Goblins or cast AN. I could continue the list, but you get the idea. A big difference here however is that a card like PIF is pretty much counterproof compared to the post-Doomsday Ideas Unbound which adds up to the card-disadvantage of casring Doomsday and is a very critical moment.

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Originally Posted by Lejay

If your dark rituals do things for you without any engine/storm spell you are way better than me. But in this deck rituals help also with burning wish, as it would with any other engine that could be/was in the deck.
I am sure you could answer that alone. But dark confidant is a slow card for this deck, it also is a creature which turns on all common removals.
Both are garbage in any deck.

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The topic of Rituals is complex as I talked about in in context of a storm-less DD list OR potentially additional use for it by running more black spells like confidant to actually profit from the relative life-independant concept and more controlling nature.

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Originally Posted by Lejay

Burning not only fetches doomsday the combo turn like IT. It also fetches it pre combo, fetches other engines, fetches solutions and the most important, it makes the doomsday engine better just by being in the deck since playing BW-> ToA through double LED increases the storm count and provides many more turn one kills that would just deal 18 otherwise.

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I'm aware of the additional stormcount. Still dunno if that justifies the color-splash with returning Wastelands to the format.

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Originally Posted by Lejay

So it's not even "not tier 1" which I could agree on, it's "proven non competitive". Well last time I played it in a big event it was in BoM 2012. Three doomsday players in the room among over 700 players. I lost in top 16 to a bad judge after beating numerous hate, you couldn't even believe it.

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2012 is long passed and that's a problem for the ongoing discussion, i fear. I'd love to hear of that T16 match, but we should keep hat for GP Lille ;)

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Originally Posted by Lejay

The second player lost in top8. The last one made 7-2. If it has proven to be non competitive since then and you want me to believe you , you'll need some strong evidence or demonstration. Until then I'll consider that the main factors are the fact that so few people run it, and so few excellent players run this very demanding deck.

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we know, Its a myth that this deck is soooo complex to play. It only needs a thinking pilot with basic math skills to start with, but I agree that we have a numbers game here for tournament performances to really compare performances (which is also a known TES problem). I know about Tristans Top 8 during a time Maverick and Zoo were still Topdecks

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Originally Posted by Lejay

It was probably the best deck in the format before griselbrand's printing so I would bet on it still being a competitive deck. But you were probably already saying it was garbage at that time I guess.

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We have no more stuff like Goblins, Zoo or Maverick in the metagame, but saw plenty of new, powerful printings. We can't consider Doomsday retained its relative powerlevel to this day, simply to that fact and without ever changing anything. that is all.

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Originally Posted by Ancestral

thos

thank you so much for your thoughts about the deck and completly destroy those falsse statments ::D
after your answer i´m gonna try harder with the deck, and your sentence about the 3 players in BoM just confirms my thoughts about the deck, competetive for sure, but not many people plying it :)

about the deck i ll probably take out LDV :) you think it´s more viable to play with white now for silences or just keep BURg ? any other suggestions are wellcome :)

again, thanks a lot for the excellent answer lejay

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This is is a totally pathetic post especially without bringing up anything to adress the discussion Jean-Mary and I have about Doomsdays position in the CURRENT metagame. If you consider results from 2012 to have any meaning for todays metagame, you might also want to argue that Zoo is a top deck against the current OmniTell/Miracles/Storm/Blade metagame, right?

the whitesplash and the Silences in this deck suffer the same problems which got them cutted in TES (unable to interact with dual-angle-hate)

Finished 3-1-1 last time i went to a local tournament with doomsday 3 weeks ago. Only 21 players and no real competitive level, but the deck felt strong nonetheless.

I played a 5-2 split between discard and chants and labmaniac main.

Heres a short report if anyone is interested:

Round 1: casual deck with arcane laboratory main 2:1
game 1: discarded arcane laboratory and won
game 2: he managed to land arcane laboratory, countered my chain of vapor and turned labman into a frog with Polymorphist's Jest in response to my brainstorm for the win :D
game 3: easy win

Round 2: Dark Maverick 2:0
game 1: i blindtherapy thalia but he had nothing
game 2: i abrupt decay thalia turn 3 and win turn 4

Round 3: Sneak Show 2:1
game 1: on the play i go turn 1 top, he goes turn 1 show and tell into griselbrand. I had the turn 2 kill but obviously lost to his counters
game 2 + 3: i rip his hand apart and both games he never could recover. One game i won with tendrils, the other with hardcast labman followed by a PTT-pile of GP, GP, BS, x, x

Round 4: Miracles 1:1
game 1: i had the turn 1 kill on the draw, i decided to go for it since i didn't want to lose to turn 2 counterbalance. He brainstormed in response to doomsday and found fow, countered doomsday followed by turn 2 counterbalance :D
game 2: during the game he had 3(!) copies of counterbalance online. I had top in play and managed to find all 3 abrupt decays along with a lot of discard + chant. At some point he only had 1 (unknown) card in hand. I decided to go for it and he destroyed my top with wear / tear in response to doomsday, leaving me with no draw spell and shutting down the tendrils plan. I made a PTT labman pile and won the turn after.
game 3: draw since we had no time left

Round 5: Dredge 0:2
game 1: he went crazy on turn 2 while i had the hand for a turn 3 win
game 2: on his turn 1 he flashbacked several therapys and reanimated iona while i had the hand for a turn 2 win


As i said before i'm aware that such a small event is far from competitive. Especially since i didn't face any delver deck and i consider delver decks to be the most difficult decks to beat for doomsday. (ant is way more favoured to fight through a ton of counters than doomsday with discard only)

So in my opinion the way to get a chance to win against blue decks (tempo and miracles) is to splash white for chants. But then again we are 4-color main and become weaker against stifle and wasteland. So i'm currently testing to cut burning wishes completly since i always hated half of my business spells to be some kind of off-color anyway (and cutting wishes already is a viable boarding plan against rug-delver for example). So why not go without them mainboard if we expect a lot of delver decks?
I think the worst parts about cutting wishes are the lost +1 stormcount in every tendrils pile and the decreased business spell count.
These issues could be solved to some extend by labmaniac and an increased cantrip count.

Advantages would be a way better tempo, miracles and storm matchup with chants while our manabase remains as stable as in Ubr doomsday. Furthermore we get a lot free slots in our sideboard to dedicate to non-blue matchups (terminus?) and to fight dual-angle-hate postboard more easily.

I know most players would never agree to cut burning wishes but for me it seems like a viable way to go in order to make it more competitive.

I don't see Silences/Chants an option in general atm. Against Miracles your main Problem is Counterbalance and that is unaffected by Silence/Chant and with the Dual-hate of either counter+discard or counter+hatebear in the current meta which the white-Splash of Silence/Chant can't get hold on.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

This is is a totally pathetic post especially without bringing up anything to adress the discussion Jean-Mary and I have about Doomsdays position in the CURRENT metagame. If you consider results from 2012 to have any meaning for todays metagame, you might also want to argue that Zoo is a top deck against the current OmniTell/Miracles/Storm/Blade metagame, right?

the whitesplash and the Silences in this deck suffer the same problems which got them cutted in TES (unable to interact with dual-angle-hate)

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i didn´t bring anything jsut because jean said all, and your statment about domsday/show and tell, have a pure lie, so doomsday have to fight trhough hate, and show and tell doesnt?

lemnear, you already said similar things in previous post when comparing decks, but i m not here to create a fight or focus on something less important than the deck, i would not respond to your meanless comments about any other topic than the deck itself ( your comment abbout my post was simply childish and not really usefull )

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I don't see Silences/Chants an option in general atm. Against Miracles your main Problem is Counterbalance and that is unaffected by Silence/Chant and with the Dual-hate of either counter+discard or counter+hatebear in the current meta which the white-Splash of Silence/Chant can't get hold on.

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Counterbalance is only a problem preboard. For that reason i would run only 2 silence main and board in 2-3 additional silence/chants along with 3 abrupt decay. This way the matchup is easily winable. But without chants you will likely lose to a floating counterspell.

Also decks like rug/burg delver with a lot of conditional disruption like stifle spell snare and REB sometimes are impossible to beat with discard.

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Originally Posted by Oceanwalker

Counterbalance is only a problem preboard. For that reason i would run only 2 silence main and board in 2-3 additional silence/chants along with 3 abrupt decay. This way the matchup is easily winable. But without chants you will likely lose to a floating counterspell.

Also decks like rug/burg delver with a lot of conditional disruption like stifle spell snare and REB sometimes are impossible to beat with discard.

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yes silence its pretty good against rug dever essencially and miracles! i love to have that effect but agains delver its hard to mantain the collors up for everything between stifles/wastelands !

About the burning wish, i think i has to be a part of the deck, its pretty good, a bit slow but this deck can function good in a mid game :) And thanks for the report, its to see that some people play doomsday :D

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Originally Posted by Oceanwalker

I know most players would never agree to cut burning wishes but for me it seems like a viable way to go in order to make it more competitive.

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I've been testing heavily with a 0 BW build. It feels like it has advantages with the manabase and for a tad more streamlined play (am not missing the +1 storm) but the lack of pre-board answers to certain things like Thalia definitely hurts. The discussion on stormboards re: W for Terminus is a possible good way to combat this.
I have also been testing out as many DTT's as I can jam in and they do some serious work.

Nice to see freshness here again.

Doomsday is maybe one of the most unexplored Decks in Legacy so far and to be honest I'm also still in the learning process although I have a decent amount of experience with other storm decks like ANT and TES.

So, some questions regarding the deck design. PLease note that these ideas are just intuitive.

I feel like the deck goes off around turn 2-4 and you dont even have to use all your ressources like ant with led cracking which leads me to countermagic as our protection: flusterstorm ? This spell has been really powerful with senseis divining top to either protect our doomsday or to counter our opponents stuff (combo or discard,etc) proactively.

Another thing are the 2 lotus petals: Do we really need them? I sided them out a lot so i was thinking about tuning the deck more in a control-combo shell with 2 abrupt decays maindeck to combat counterbalance but also annoying permanents.
Remember that in legacy once the game goes beyond turn 2 we have to deal with all kind of stuff our opponent is slamming against us.



Greetings from Tokyo

Kai

Flusterstorm is good disruption, but bad protection. Of course, you can use it to force your Doomsday through, and a lot of people *should* be fighting over Doomsday because they won't know what five cards you would select, but this deck does use LED in a ton of piles and that'd be a problem if you run into anyone who opts to sandbag their disruption for any reason. I think it'd be a good card if you're playing Emrakul because that's the kind of pile that doesn't use LED and doesn't require you to do much else past resolve Doomsday, but I don't know how good Emrakul is these days. I like Flusterstorm as a sideboard card, and I'm actually considering playing it in my sideboard over Xantid Swarm (but I'm unsure because the biggest combo deck is Omniscience with Boseiju).

Other than the clash with LED, I don't like counters a whole lot in this deck because you can only play so much protection/disruption, and since Doomsday pretty much kills you if your plans get messed up after you cast it, I would rather be maxed out on cards that make me 100% sure that my opponent can't mess up my plans, like discard (for information) and chants (which literally say "your opponent can't cast spells).

I wouldn't play this deck without at least one Lotus Petal because it goes into a few piles. Burning Wish also does wonders against many things that opponents can be throwing at you, but you're not the first person I've seen suggest maindecking Abrupt Decay. I don't know if I'm on board with it, but Counterbalance is a real beating so I think it would make sense to try it.

Also, I imagine I'll be seeing you at GP Kyoto.

Interesting. Thank you for your quick response.

Yeah, when i first looked at the card doomsday the card itself reminded me at the card Show and Tell: You cast it and win the game 1 turn later or even in the same turn. Sneakshow uses Countermagic so i was curious if we can also adapt it. Even if we cant protect our spells after a resolved doomsday because of the leds in most of the lines as you said.

Hm, i think you already have had this topic in this thread but because there are not that many winning decklists on the internet post treasure cruise ban i would like to know which approach would be the best.
Does Dig Through Time get a home here?
What about PLaneswalker in our sideboard like Jace or even Counterbalance to make it a real controldeck against other combodecks? I mean we already have 4 Senseis Tops.

I have the feeling that it is also possible to swap the entire deck shell into a more controlish version with a doomsday finish, similar to the jeskai ascendency combo deck which have gotten quite popular these days.


PS: I will be at GP Kyoto with 2 Byes but also doing some coverage work for TokyoMTG.com on friday.

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Originally Posted by sawatarix

Interesting. Thank you for your quick response.

Yeah, when i first looked at the card doomsday the card itself reminded me at the card Show and Tell: You cast it and win the game 1 turn later or even in the same turn. Sneakshow uses Countermagic so i was curious if we can also adapt it. Even if we cant protect our spells after a resolved doomsday because of the leds in most of the lines as you said.

Hm, i think you already have had this topic in this thread but because there are not that many winning decklists on the internet post treasure cruise ban i would like to know which approach would be the best.
Does Dig Through Time get a home here?
What about PLaneswalker in our sideboard like Jace or even Counterbalance to make it a real controldeck against other combodecks? I mean we already have 4 Senseis Tops.

I have the feeling that it is also possible to swap the entire deck shell into a more controlish version with a doomsday finish, similar to the jeskai ascendency combo deck which have gotten quite popular these days.


PS: I will be at GP Kyoto with 2 Byes but also doing some coverage work for TokyoMTG.com on friday.

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Hey Kai,

This is a bit of an aside, but do you know if there will coverage in English of the gp main event?

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Originally Posted by Ancestral

i didn´t bring anything jsut because jean said all, and your statment about domsday/show and tell, have a pure lie, so doomsday have to fight trhough hate, and show and tell doesnt?

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Where did I "lie"? That S&T is a manawise a cheaper and more Compact Combo than Doomsday is a damn fact.

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Originally Posted by nevilshute

Hey Kai,

This is a bit of an aside, but do you know if there will coverage in English of the gp main event?

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Hey Martin,

Unfortunately there is not. But i will do some coverage on Friday for TokyoMTG and we will upload them on our youtube channel.
So stay tuned ;)

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Where did I "lie"? That S&T is a manawise a cheaper and more Compact Combo than Doomsday is a damn fact.

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When you said the advantages you said that show and tell its just that and creature, and doomsday had to fight through hate, i m saying that snt has to fight trhough hate cards too and disruption, like any other combo deck.

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Originally Posted by Ancestral

When you said the advantages you said that show and tell its just that and creature, and doomsday had to fight through hate, i m saying that snt has to fight trhough hate cards too and disruption, like any other combo deck.

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So you choose to ignore that pushing S&T (which is often paired with Boseiju these days) though Thalia, counterbalance, Wasteland, counters, etc. is miles easier than chaining 10 spells together (which need more mana to begin with) against the beforementioned cards?

There is no "lie" involved.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

So you choose to ignore that pushing S&T (which is often paired with Boseiju these days) though Thalia, counterbalance, Wasteland, counters, etc. is miles easier than chaining 10 spells together (which need more mana to begin with) against the beforementioned cards?

There is no "lie" involved.

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Just going to note that basically everything besides Omniscience isn't worth Showing into play in a variety of matchups. Having a card that is 2U, win the game is great, except when in a significant portion of your matchups it's actually "flip a coin, win the game". Dropping a legend into play hasn't been reliable in a long time. Omniscience (or Dream Halls which sees no play anymore) is still fairly reliable. SnT->Omniscience is also at least a three card combo, also typically requiring finding specific answers post-board prior to comboing.

ANT (including TES here) is still the most streamlined deck in Legacy and it's not even close. It has tradeoffs with Doomsday regarding rituals vs cantrip effects which affect things the decks can or cannot do vs hate, but both are way more reliable combos than any current Show and Tell strategy. Show and Tell has other benefits, but simply being a two card combo that instantly wins most matchups isn't actually one of them.

Going for a tendrils kill against D&T seems... dumb. Shouldn't you be going for Lab Man there?
Their out is StP, and Jitte if they already have counters, and you should be able to deal with those through discard...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by emidln

Just going to note that basically everything besides Omniscience isn't worth Showing into play in a variety of matchups. Having a card that is 2U, win the game is great, except when in a significant portion of your matchups it's actually "flip a coin, win the game". Dropping a legend into play hasn't been reliable in a long time. Omniscience (or Dream Halls which sees no play anymore) is still fairly reliable. SnT->Omniscience is also at least a three card combo, also typically requiring finding specific answers post-board prior to comboing.

ANT (including TES here) is still the most streamlined deck in Legacy and it's not even close. It has tradeoffs with Doomsday regarding rituals vs cantrip effects which affect things the decks can or cannot do vs hate, but both are way more reliable combos than any current Show and Tell strategy. Show and Tell has other benefits, but simply being a two card combo that instantly wins most matchups isn't actually one of them.

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I guess it's fine to move further than S&T/SneakAttack + Emrakul/Griselbrand for discussing a plain two-card-combo not only for the sheer presence of Karakas or Containment Priest but to look at Omniscience, which is a three-card-combo ... at least technically, because the whole deck is full of cantrips and you can chain those for free with Omniscience in play to find what you need, which however would bring me back to the topic of mana and to the fact that even if Ritual + Doomsday resp. S&T + Omniscience resolve, there is still a giant gap of commitment done and/or resources needed to continue from here. There is a big difference between getting your Ideas Unbound (DDFT) countered or your DTT (OmniTell) taking passed turns, mana, Boseiju, lifeloss and plenty of other factors into account and I feel there isn't any significant edge over the formats other combo decks other than getting around 'yard-hate and comon storm-specific hate like Thalia/Canonist/Flusterstorm.

I'd support Kai's ideas about Counterbalance and especially DTT in here, not only because the function of Counterbalsnce+Top to break the combo mirror but also due to its ability to protect LabMan while DTT is a perfect option to grab missing combo parts while creating cardadvantage. The problem imo here comes with thinking a step further if you run a deck with so many cantrips and DTTs: Why grab DR+Doomsday over S&T+Omnicience?

#ComboStreamlined

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Originally Posted by iGrok

Going for a tendrils kill against D&T seems... dumb. Shouldn't you be going for Lab Man there?
Their out is StP, and Jitte if they already have counters, and you should be able to deal with those through discard...

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I could be missing something here, but I actually side out Maniac against Death and Taxes.

If we're assuming your opponent isn't a goldfish and not giving you infinite time to play around the "Taxes" part of their deck, then a topdecked Swords to Plowshares, Thalia, Phyrexian Revoker, Ethersworn Canonist, Wasteland, or Rishadan Port can make you look foolish if you build a pass the turn pile, and Tendrils is easier to make "win-now" piles with.

Sure, a top-decked StP sucks, but it's not worth playing around, especially since post-board they should be boarding StP out.
[edit]: fucked up my math.

=======

After rereading a bit, seems like y'all are on non-wish lists. Personally I think that's a mistake, but yeah...

So, I too was invited to join this discussion. I was waiting around thinking on some of this, so I have to play a little bit of catch-up here, sorry.

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Originally Posted by Lejay

Personnally I didn't stop playing the deck because of the "same problems for years", but rather because the format's power level increased a lot and I consider omnitell to be the best combo deck.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

in other words: the deck isn't able to compete on top level even among combo decks, which is what I said.

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I don't think it's really fair to brand Doomsday as non-competitive because it's not "the best combo deck". Gun to my head, I'd say Omni-Tell is probably at least a little better than ANT/TES a lot of the time as well, that didn't stop Storm from eclipsing SnT during Cruise format, and it doesn't stop a good Storm pilot from winning a fair amount. A lot of that has to do with the difference between "best combo" in the format and "2nd best" is probably that the interaction you dodge by playing Storm is of slightly lesser value that the interaction you expose yourself to, so overall it's a small net loss. IDK how damning that is, and there are likely metas where it's not even an issue. There's also the factor of some people just being good at playing certain decks, I recall a post in the TES thread a while back where Bryant said he didn't think TES was the best deck in the format, but it certainly was the best deck for him. If people only truly played the best deck for a given role, the format would just be something like Team America vs. Miracles vs. Omnitell - the format. The purpose of this thread should be about:
1) closing the gap between this deck and the "best combo deck" or advancing that gap if/when this is the best combo deck
2) helping people identify metagames or personal proficiency that invalidates the gap between this deck and the "best combo deck"
3) promoting the pinnacle of technical play from all users/developers of the deck because if no one is willing/able to use the deck when it has its time to shine, everyone has missed an opportunity

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Originally Posted by Lejay

I don't see the point of the engine/main combo card making card disadvantage. It's a super tutor that converts your ressources into a win. By thinking exclusively in terms of card advantage or CD you would qualify show and tell as a card disadvantage card that doesn't deserve any play either.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

there is a difference between "S&T + Threat" or "Dark Ritual + Doomsday + way to draw into the pile + having enough mana to do something + have a way to play around hate". Another aspect: S&T costs 3 total; how much total is a win-now-doomsday? Twice as much.

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I feel like it's a bit unfair to compare the requirements of Doomsday to SnT here, especially the way you presented it. It's not as though SnT decks don't have to protect their combos too, and FoW is a pretty draining card to use for that purpose. Moreover, part of the reason that Omni-Tell is arguably stronger than Storm is that, yeah, you go "all-in" less and getting a SnT Forced or w/e still leaves you with 3 others, but that's an advantage it has over every Storm list, not just Doomsday. Further, a win-now Doomsday does cost 6, but a win-now PiF loop or Ad Nauseam is usually 7 and require just as many, if not more, piece to assemble than Doomsday. Going further, Doomsday can accelerate it's piles by using cantrips as make shift rituals through piled LEDs, so you can actually drop that pile cost down, whereas ANT/TES have to play plain accelerators which can become blank against hate/control scenarios. I don't think ANY storm deck can necessarily compete with Omni-Tell when it comes to committing less to a win, but Doomsday can certainly hang with the other storm decks.

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Originally Posted by Lejay

Thanks to burning wish you don't rely on doomsday that much. I was winning a decent amount of the time with Time spiral, empty the warrens and natural storm built by draw spells and/or sensei/sensei storm. All of these have been used in doomsday piles but it also is used to win without doomsday.I won a ton of time without a hand, that's a strength of sensei.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

That is fair in regard to Burning wish to find a win aside the resolved Doomsday. The most wins I remember with the help of SDT came through Helm of Awakening ;)

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While some of the options that Lejay lists (EtW/Spiral) aren't used, Lejay does make a fair point about how well you can handle a grindy game. With the ability to make so many land drops, you can just put together a 2 card combo of Doomsday + cantrip and that alone can win you the game. Much like Omni-Tell, it's more like a 2.5 card combo as you would certainly want some other card there to jump start whatever it is you're doing, but I do think it's impressive how resilient Doomsday can be without necessarily relying on a graveyard or a life total.

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Originally Posted by Lejay

A relevant statement. Yes, I consider doomsday lost its main advantage over ANT. I haven't really played the storm decks these last two years but in my mind there was still match to determine the best deck, and if PiF storm gained the edge, it's not a big one.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I consider this debatable, but I don't want to get lost in details about advantages of certain storm-buildarounds. It's about Doomsdays place in the evolving metagame and potential to ascend from it's "tier 2" status which I can't see without breaking out of a shell which imo didn't substantially changed for the last 5 years.

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I can't help but feel a weird chicken and egg thing going on here. "This deck hasn't changed in 5 years, there's no point playing it" > "No one is playing this deck, so it hasn't changed in X years" repeat Ad Infinitum. Unfortunately, yes, there have been few relevant printings for Doomsday, but there are noteworthy cards. Dig through Time could be big, Lab Man... actually came out in the same set as PiF, yes? There's also design space that people just never looked at. I recently tried SB Jace and liked it, Sawatrix mentioned that and Counterbalance (though idk how good the latter might be, it didn't seem to do high tide any favors). There's nothing stopping older cards from coming in as well, a slight shift could accommodate a value PiF engine, you could also use Street Wraiths for a faster Doomsday deck, or even go for pure value with Night's Whisper a la vintage.

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Originally Posted by Lejay

I am not sure ad nauseam is immune to lightning bolt. If you answer "PiF" then we can find all kind of cards specifically screwing it. I almost always splashed white in doomsday and that negates a lot the post doomsday burn spell if your metagame has a lot of these. But it's still a fast deck and you don't have to be in bolt range in the first place, at least not much more than ANT/PiF storm.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Just between you and me: I have no clue why people kill themselves with Ad Nauseam other than greed or stupidity especially if they know their opponent is running Bolts. That's a mistake you maybe make once or twice as a beginner, but I don't know why that sticks as a stigma of playing Ad Nauseam. Point is that between PIF/AN/EtW storm has more than enough tools to deal with plenty of hate. Shut off the yard? Drop Goblins or cast AN. I could continue the list, but you get the idea. A big difference here however is that a card like PIF is pretty much counterproof compared to the post-Doomsday Ideas Unbound which adds up to the card-disadvantage of casring Doomsday and is a very critical moment.

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I think it's debatable to call PiF "counter-proof" when graveyard hate is so prevalent. There's also the issue that DRS eats both your yard and your life, hurting both your engines (he even profitably blocks Goblins!). PiF is certainly powerful though, and it is a massive step up compared to something like IGG. The difference that should really be highlighted is power versus precision, Ad Nauseam and EtW are way more powerful than a backup plan of trying a different DDay pile, for instance, but they introduce a lot of variability to your win. The high amount of incidental grave hate you run into is just a meta-driven variability that Past in Flames encounters. I still think Past in Flames and Ad Nauseam are some of the most powerful cards you can be playing, but I can't help but feel there is definite merit to "pick the exact five cards that win you the game here".

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Originally Posted by Lejay

If your dark rituals do things for you without any engine/storm spell you are way better than me. But in this deck rituals help also with burning wish, as it would with any other engine that could be/was in the deck.
I am sure you could answer that alone. But dark confidant is a slow card for this deck, it also is a creature which turns on all common removals.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

The topic of Rituals is complex as I talked about in in context of a storm-less DD list OR potentially additional use for it by running more black spells like confidant to actually profit from the relative life-independant concept and more controlling nature.

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I'm not sure if Confidant is the card you want for this deck. Lab Man makes the cut as a creature here, but it literally wins the game and can do so with Chromatic Sphere to shield it from removal. There are a few good card advantage engines you can be running, though. DTT, Jace, Whisper etc. One thing I will say about Dark Ritual, and running Tendrils, is that you are afforded the ability to accelerate your combo more than OmniTell can with just Sol Lands (if we're still doing that comparison, iirc they don't run Lotus Petal) and you also have a way to win the game with out ever touching Doomsday, mainly by stringing a lot of spells into a wish for Tendrils (or I guess EtW if you run it). This is a pseudo-parallel to Lem's earlier point about having AdNaus/PiF/EtW as supplements to your game plan, running Storm in Doomsday is just affording yourself more options (i believe it is also more mana efficient than trying for a protected lab man pile when it comes to winning the same turn, but I could be wrong there).

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Originally Posted by Lejay

Infernal tutor has been played for years in doomsday. It was even in the first lists from emidln who was trying to find which split of DD/IT was the best and his conclusion was 0 IT - Max DD.
Lab man and shelldock have both been played a lot in DDFT, even if I personnally never liked Lab Man. Burning not only fetches doomsday the combo turn like IT. It also fetches it pre combo, fetches other engines, fetches solutions and the most important, it makes the doomsday engine better just by being in the deck since playing BW-> ToA through double LED increases the storm count and provides many more turn one kills that would just deal 18 otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I'm aware of the additional stormcount. Still dunno if that justifies the color-splash with returning Wastelands to the format.

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I think, given all the things Burning Wish does, it's probably worth the slots it takes up. Cutting the ~3 Wishes requires the addition of the other Doomsday and the ToA, so it only frees up one slot and you would need to likely change more than one other slot to add more cards to find your win condition. regarding the color splash and Wasteland vulnerability, I'm not sure it's much worse than TES or 2xPiF builds of ANT, you even have the occasional case of Chromatic Sphere making it playable off of all basics. I will add, though, that a maindeck ToA could be a decent card to have for fighting Miracles or Stoneblade.

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Originally Posted by Oceanwalker

(ant is way more favoured to fight through a ton of counters than doomsday with discard only)

So in my opinion the way to get a chance to win against blue decks (tempo and miracles) is to splash white for chants. But then again we are 4-color main and become weaker against stifle and wasteland. So i'm currently testing to cut burning wishes completly since i always hated half of my business spells to be some kind of off-color anyway (and cutting wishes already is a viable boarding plan against rug-delver for example). So why not go without them mainboard if we expect a lot of delver decks?
I think the worst parts about cutting wishes are the lost +1 stormcount in every tendrils pile and the decreased business spell count.
These issues could be solved to some extend by labmaniac and an increased cantrip count.

Advantages would be a way better tempo, miracles and storm matchup with chants while our manabase remains as stable as in Ubr doomsday. Furthermore we get a lot free slots in our sideboard to dedicate to non-blue matchups (terminus?) and to fight dual-angle-hate postboard more easily.

I know most players would never agree to cut burning wishes but for me it seems like a viable way to go in order to make it more competitive.

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I disagree with your evaluation of chants and cutting wishes for them. your protection spells can be just as important to you as your business spells, so why is it ok that your protection is off color whereas half your business spells being off color isn't? Moreover, if you take out wishes, and then need to add in Tendrils and Doomsday, how is that one slot you save providing enough room for all the extra cantrips you may need to find Doomsdays and increase storm count, as you put it? I also don't see how this gives you a better storm matchup as your piles are now less efficient so that early kill piles would only deal 18 damage, you also lose the utility of Wishes being Doomsday OR Tendrils OR discard OR Cruel Bargain. For Miracles or Delver, I'm pretty sure the reason you side out Wishes there is for Spell Snare or Hydroblast, I think decreasing your count of threats against Miracles is likely the opposite of what you want to be doing. You also mention postboard solutions to dual-angle hate, do you mean discard? If you're using your sb as a round-about solution to a problem you introduce for yourself due to your main deck choices, how good can that choice really be?

This actually took me forever to write out, I have a lot on my mind about this deck. As I mentioned earlier, there is a ton of unexplored space here, and this deck can do some interesting things that other Storm lists can't. I won't try and sell it as the best combo deck, because it likely isn't, but i don't think its particularly unplayable.

Counterbalance is pretty bad in Doomsday unless you are facing another combo deck. The reason is that even if you assemble CB/SDT with 1/2/3 before your opponent has any threats (optimal scenario), you still need to find Duress/Theapy equal to the number of counters / removal spells they have to actually win the game. Consider this scenario:

Counterbalance+SDT in play, you cast Doomsday going for a Lab Man pile. We'll pretend for a moment that the only time they can break up the combo is when your draw spell is on the stack (although this isn't reality, and you'll likely need a boatload of mana and an extra SDT (maybe putting it in your pile) to keep Spell Pierce/REB dead while drawing through your pile). So you have a Lab Man in play, a Counterbalance in play, a SDT in play, and you go to win the game with SDT. Your opponent casts Swords to Plowshares. Now what?

For Counterbalance+SDT to have been effective you have to land it before your opponent has a reasonable threat (so basically only against combo decks that lack castable creatures) or have enough time to find additional draw spells/Duresses/mana to win through their removal anyway.

So I'm new to this deck and been playing it only ~1 month or so and before this I started with SnT and then moved to Ad Nauseam & Ooops all my spells.

Just reading this now I started to wonder is this deck worth of the time it takes to learn in current meta? But I promised to myself I will learn this deck and will stick with it for sometime and try my best, but curious what you guys feel since there is so much arguing going on about other decks compared to this one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by l33twash0r

So I'm new to this deck and been playing it only ~1 month or so and before this I started with SnT and then moved to Ad Nauseam & Ooops all my spells.

Just reading this now I started to wonder is this deck worth of the time it takes to learn in current meta? But I promised to myself I will learn this deck and will stick with it for sometime and try my best, but curious what you guys feel since there is so much arguing going on about other decks compared to this one.

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the discussion about "best storm decks" i guess it will remain forever, this deck has his pros and cons, but now you have excelente players here tell their opinions on this so you got a good starting point to figure how is this deck works and is capacity for the current meta game! the deck is hard to play properly like everyone said, but i find it very rewarding, if you like combo deck (we can see that for you past decks :p ) i think oyu shuld give it a try, and then can share or thoughts about it ;)

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Originally Posted by Doishy

I've been testing heavily with a 0 BW build. It feels like it has advantages with the manabase and for a tad more streamlined play (am not missing the +1 storm) but the lack of pre-board answers to certain things like Thalia definitely hurts. The discussion on stormboards re: W for Terminus is a possible good way to combat this.
I have also been testing out as many DTT's as I can jam in and they do some serious work.

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I have tested DTT as well but i'm not sure if i really like it in doomsday. filling your graveyard as soon as possible isn't what DD wants to do. on the other hand it offers nice lines like cracking 2 LEDs in response to DTT during your turn, if you find DD and any cantrip among those seven cards you win. It also plays very well together with rain of filth.

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Originally Posted by wonderPreaux

I disagree with your evaluation of chants and cutting wishes for them. your protection spells can be just as important to you as your business spells, so why is it ok that your protection is off color whereas half your business spells being off color isn't? Moreover, if you take out wishes, and then need to add in Tendrils and Doomsday, how is that one slot you save providing enough room for all the extra cantrips you may need to find Doomsdays and increase storm count, as you put it? I also don't see how this gives you a better storm matchup as your piles are now less efficient so that early kill piles would only deal 18 damage, you also lose the utility of Wishes being Doomsday OR Tendrils OR discard OR Cruel Bargain. For Miracles or Delver, I'm pretty sure the reason you side out Wishes there is for Spell Snare or Hydroblast, I think decreasing your count of threats against Miracles is likely the opposite of what you want to be doing. You also mention postboard solutions to dual-angle hate, do you mean discard? If you're using your sb as a round-about solution to a problem you introduce for yourself due to your main deck choices, how good can that choice really be?

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Thanks for your reply. You're right at some points, i will lose utility and will introduce the following new problem to the maindeck: no way to beat thalia (except maybe a one-off karakas). but burning wish is not very good at beating counterbalance or chalice either just like a non-wish build. once again, therefore you get a real sideboard to dedicate specific and reliable slots to any kind of permanent hate postboard, along with two angles of protection in form of discard AND chants.

Regarding the first turn kill. you can just build a basic maniac pile for the same requirements as the tendrils pile (land, ritual, DD, LED, probe) that wins on the spot.

What do you guys think of taking a combo control approach? Basically making Doomsday into a control deck with a combo finish, akin to Menendian's Doomsday circa 2012?

Something like this:

Sorcery (23)
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Unearth
4 Doomsday

Instant (15)
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
2 Spell Pierce
1 Predict
4 Force of Will

Artifact (4)
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Creature (1)
1 Laboratory Maniac

Lands (17)
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
1 Dread of Night
2 Flusterstorm
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Dark Confidant
2 Massacre

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Oceanwalker

Thanks for your reply. You're right at some points, i will lose utility and will introduce the following new problem to the maindeck: no way to beat thalia (except maybe a one-off karakas). but burning wish is not very good at beating counterbalance or chalice either just like a non-wish build. once again, therefore you get a real sideboard to dedicate specific and reliable slots to any kind of permanent hate postboard, along with two angles of protection in form of discard AND chants.

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You can pack meltdown or w/e if you have a lot of artifacts in your meta, so yes, wish can hit chalice. moreover, discard is better at handling counterbalance/CotV, because you have a chance to preemptively remove the two. discard+wish has chances against a lot of things, whereas you have to shoot off chants and hope for the best when you play with white. why clutter your 75 with an abundance of protection hoping that between all of it you'll be ok, when you can just run a reasonable amount of discard and have a small number of wishable solutions?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Oceanwalker

Regarding the first turn kill. you can just build a basic maniac pile for the same requirements as the tendrils pile (land, ritual, DD, LED, probe) that wins on the spot.

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Unless the opponent has removal. AFAIK, the protected labman pile costs 2UU. This isn't even considering how much worse it then becomes to open with the Maniac in hand, or to open the Tendrils in aggro matchups, for example.

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Originally Posted by iGrok

Sure, a top-decked StP sucks, but it's not worth playing around, especially since post-board they should be boarding StP out.

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Unless you win with a Tendrils pile that hides Laboratory Maniac at the bottom of the pile, then your opponent has the opportunity to look through your whole deck to see that you have a pretty significant creature in your deck worth keeping Swords in to hit.

It's not just a topdecked Swords though--If you pass the turn, it could easily be the case that you suddenly you don't have enough mana to build your pile that beats the Swords in your opponent's hand (Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Thalia), or that you can only cast the top card of your pile (Canonist), or that your opponent just turns off LED or something (Revoker) and then you're dead. I have no interest in making my game plan to try to find an opening to pass the turn when all of the aforementioned cards are commonly played. At the point where I have decided that I don't want to pass the turn, I can easily play around Swords by having no creatures in my deck because I don't think that Maniac is actually playing around anything except fringe sideboard cards which prevent me from casting a Tendrils targeting my opponent, and those cards can be bounced/destroyed.

I could be wrong though. Why do you think that Maniac is better than Tendrils here?

I am not actually sure OmniTell is better than Doomsday (or any other Storm variant, for that matter). OmniTell just draws so many awkward hands. The beauty of Doomsday is that it contains zero bad cards. All cards are easily cast. Where OmniTell can easily draw a hand with an average spell CMC of 10. Yes, I know you can mull those hands, but mulling all the time is not where I want to be, personally.

I am not the best Storm player by far, but I actually prefer Doomsday to OmniTell for tournament play.

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

I am not actually sure OmniTell is better than Doomsday (or any other Storm variant, for that matter). OmniTell just draws so many awkward hands. The beauty of Doomsday is that it contains zero bad cards. All cards are easily cast. Where OmniTell can easily draw a hand with an average spell CMC of 10. Yes, I know you can mull those hands, but mulling all the time is not where I want to be, personally.

I am not the best Storm player by far, but I actually prefer Doomsday to OmniTell for tournament play.

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Those clunky draws were the reason players cutted Enter the Infinite and Dream Halls for more cantrips (Brainstorm) to fix sketchy hands. It's not that storm is guaranteed to evade hands w/o business but all mana or that you would call hands with double Wish/Doomsday exciting to open with.

Unrelated: For storm and S&T I'd say that any hand with land(s) and at least 1 cantrip is no Auto-mull

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Those clunky draws were the reason players cutted Enter the Infinite and Dream Halls for more cantrips (Brainstorm) to fix sketchy hands.

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You probably meant Dig?
The first iterations of Omnitell with 4 Enter and 3 Dream Halls were already playing 4 brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 preordrain.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Those clunky draws were the reason players cutted Enter the Infinite and Dream Halls for more cantrips (Brainstorm) to fix sketchy hands. It's not that storm is guaranteed to evade hands w/o business but all mana or that you would call hands with double Wish/Doomsday exciting to open with.

Unrelated: For storm and S&T I'd say that any hand with land(s) and at least 1 cantrip is no Auto-mull

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I know, but on average I draw better hands with the Storm decks than with OmniTell.
I'm not saying I have conclusive evidence. I would just like to point out I disagree with the statement that OmniTell is the best combo deck right now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dte

You probably meant Dig?
The first iterations of Omnitell with 4 Enter and 3 Dream Halls were already playing 4 brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 preordrain.

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No, I just highlighted Brainstorm as the usual fix-that-bad-hand-spell.

It's off to consider a hand which contains 2-3 copies of high cmc cards an auto mulligan (or even argue with that happening THAT OFTEN), if not only the total number of these were chopped in half in current iterations of the deck, but the slots EtI and DH occupied are now filled with cheap cantrips (Probe+DTT) which can find S&T or Brainstorm to drop or get rid of those High cmc cards. Not even talking about FoW fodder.

Doomsday does not have such a high redundancy in my opinion and can't turn the second Wish or Doomsday in your opener into value like OmniTell can with FoW and the increased ability to grab Brainstorm.

Edit:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

I know, but on average I draw better hands with the Storm decks than with OmniTell.
I'm not saying I have conclusive evidence. I would just like to point out I disagree with the statement that OmniTell is the best combo deck right now.

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That's not surprising as storm decks are totally reduced concepts of mana + engine card/card that get engine card into your hand and the actual kill only being 1-2 cards in the whole deck. S&T decks have a much tougher time balancing mana + enablers + engines/killconditions creating clunky hands at times. SneakShow has more than 4 times the number of kill-conditions stuffed in their deck compared to storm.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

No, I just highlighted Brainstorm as the usual fix-that-bad-hand-spell.

Doomsday does not have such a high redundancy in my opinion and can't turn the second Wish or Doomsday in your opener into value like OmniTell can with FoW and the increased ability to grab Brainstorm.
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In this example is Brainstorm being used as a 'catch all' term? It's just I cannot quite see the parallel you are trying to draw here (maybe rephrasing would help?). The only thing really missing from DDay is the lack of preordain. Wishes can still be used for value to grab any needed things to fight main deck hate or utility spells that are value in this case such as early discard. A second doomsday is also fine allowing another attempt to go off if the first one fails or as with any card it can be brain stormed away.

When you say increased value with FoW for SnT, are you meaning it is okay to have multiple in the opener which actively helps you or am I missing the point?

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Originally Posted by Doishy

In this example is Brainstorm being used as a 'catch all' term? It's just I cannot quite see the parallel you are trying to draw here (maybe rephrasing would help?). The only thing really missing from DDay is the lack of preordain. Wishes can still be used for value to grab any needed things to fight main deck hate or utility spells that are value in this case such as early discard. A second doomsday is also fine allowing another attempt to go off if the first one fails or as with any card it can be brain stormed away.

When you say increased value with FoW for SnT, are you meaning it is okay to have multiple in the opener which actively helps you or am I missing the point?

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I should indeed rephrase it. The talk was about high cmc cards like Omniscience, DTT and others bricking your hand especially if dawn in multiples and forcing you into mulligans, which I disagree with as I consider it really unlikely that these cards harm your gameplan (and ergo validate a mulligan) in a deck which can not only pitch additional copies of that blue high cmc cards to FoW, but also has a premium access to Brainstorm to shuffle them away thanks to the insane redundancy created by Ponder/Probe/Preordain and, to a lesser extend, DTT itself.

so I don't consider a starting grip containing, for example, a DTT and two copies of Omniscience an automatic mulligan or "bad" per se while a second Doomsday or Burning Wish has near to no value in a starting grip in DDFT, unless you can shuffle it away with a Brainstorm as well (but also have less options to find it in the first place unless you consider endless look-fetch-look with SDT an adequate and economic way to deal with the problem)