[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

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I came back on Sunday, not making to the Top4 due to getting paired down and losing to Goblins game 1.

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Congrats on the T8. Also note: I get paired down every single time I go to my local store. It's happened randomly every time I go there for the past I want to say 3 months. I've actually seen 2 pairings happen, it's weird.

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I should not have lost that MU simply due to all the aggro hate cards not to mention BEBs.

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Goblins can win even if you have a decent hand. It appears as though you had a poor hand. This should be no suprise. Also your land-base is much harder for you to fill as you run both wish and vindicate. It's as if you can't run your model without white from the beginning with this in mind, maybe you should have mull'd hands against gobbos; or I dunno played Engineered Plague? :)

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What happened was: All 3 games, I drew no removal, and got nothing through digging with Standstills/SDT/Brainstorm.

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Interesting, then your hand must have been excetionally white based for you couldn't play any of your removal. Another reason why disk may be good is that it does absolutely destroy specificly goblins and d stompy apart.

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It was frustrating as hell.

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I can imagine.

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Game 2 I resolved a critical Humility right before I was going to die and stabilized with Pulse and won.

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Thats how you do-er.

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Game 3, I drew zero white sources (he didn't waste any Tundras either). I had 7 lands out with zero white sources after shuffling and Brainstorming, i.e. I drew 2 Factories, 2 Seas, 2 Island, 1 Ruins and my hand had 2 Wrath, 3 StPs waiting to rape his army of goblins.

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Which means you took a game 3 with no white sources in your opener but many different single and double cc white cards. You don't take chances in game three. You take them in game 2 after your 1-0 (you shouldn't be playing 3 games but if you do, then :)) haha anyways A mulligan on that hand was the correct call regardless of how you fealt. This is where that 6-7 fetch rule comes in handy also.

It's Ok to take risks in game 1 as well, not just when you are up 1-0.

I disagree. I tend to not take risks game 1, but in game 2 i'll throw something in that I might not normally do. Thats how I found out that EP was actually amazing in the thrash matchup for my model. Who'd a thunk.

Game 3, I kept a strong hand in fact. It had 1 Island, Standstill, FOW, Factory, Factory, Sea, BS. I FOWed turn 1 Lackey (he was on the play) and I played a land but he dropped vial so Standstill was dead. I had the feeling that this was going to happen but I REALLY NEED to FOW Lackey instead of vial since I had no StP/BEB and I can't block with factory if he went first. I'm not risking a Siege-Gang on turn 1, so I thought it was the right play. Against Vial, I have 3 EE and with ALL that goblin hate cards in game 3, I figured I'd destroy him. Ended up drawing multiple StP/Wrath but not a single white. I do agree that I should revert back to 1 Disk/1 Wrath split instead of 2 Wrath. Wrath sometimes annoy the hell out of me. I've always been a Disk fan since I played MUC heavily before upgrading to Landstill, which is better at handling swarm aggo (MUC is amazing against Thresh and threat-light decks with Shackles but sucks bad against swarm e.g. Goblins).

And ALSO, I used EE once in 3 games, and the games dragged for more than 10+ turns. It was depressing how I drew nothing, and I was using Top+Fetches to dig further. Other aggro games later on were smooth, and played out the way Landstill was supposed to.

My newest list would probably include 1 Disk and 2 Ruins. Possibly no wastelands/dustbowl depending on the meta. If there's folks/manlands/dreadstill then Wasteland is needed, but this is something that I noticed: if you're playing no Crucible MD, then Dustbowl >>Wasteland simply because you can keep reusing its effect without a Crucible. This is where Tolaria West is a good card if you're not running Crucible since it can grab you the lone Dustbowl. But I've disliked Tolaria West since it's usually too slow.

@Moss: EP is a little too narrow in my meta. It answers goblins, and I've yet to test it against Ichorid. I think it slows Ichorid down, but not much unless you get double EP, which would be golden. What shines against Ichorid is Extirpate and aggressive mulligan and wastelands/vindicate to keep them off their land, slowing the dredging since they can no longer rely on their spells to dredge, and you force them to dredge and overextend. Furthermore, the newer Ichorid lists board in Greater Gargadon, which EP fails to resolve the problem since Gargadon ignores EP and can attack from multiple directions, giving the deck a headache. From testing, one just needs to counter inital discard outlets, hopefully disrupt their manabase (this is usually not common, but would be huge) and then stalling with EE until you find Extirpate to seal the deal. Pithing Needle on EE is a bitch although in Vindcate builds, you have another out. I've found that 2-3 Paths instead of 2-3 EP is much better since it answers threat-light decks such as Thresh and Team America, and it destroys Zoo. EP is great against Merfolks and Goblins and Elves, much better than Path, and my meta isn't infested with them, which I am glad so I choose 2-3 Paths instead.

I've finished top4 in the $1.5k invitational, losing to Train Wreck in semis', with the following list:

// Lands
4 [R] Tundra
1 [R] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [R] Scrubland
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [ARE] Plains
3 [P2] Island
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
1 [FUT] Tolaria West

// Walkers
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Spells
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [TE] Humility
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [IA] Counterspell
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [SC] Decree of Justice

While the deck worked fine, there are a few observations: Tolaria West is too slow to matter when you need to tutor something, and merely a win-more if you're upper hand. The only match where I found it useful, was, surprisingly, one, where I got Choke'd (yeah, it was my blue source). Also I couldn't justify running Crucible, it just doesn't seem useful enough in my meta to be maindecked. Out of 7 matches, I've S/Bed Wrath of God five times --> looks like maindeck material.

Played Team Legacy Trios two days ago, and as Plagues were used by my teammate, I've opted for a green splash, adjusting the deck slightly:

// Lands
4 [R] Tundra
1 [R] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [ARE] Plains
3 [P2] Island
1 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
2 [A] Tropical Island
1 [R] Savannah

// Walkers
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
1 [LRW] Jace Beleren

// Spells
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [TE] Humility
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [IA] Counterspell
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [R] Wrath of God

I've literally brought my team into top2 split with 6 straight wins (12-1 by games).
Garruk never worked the way I wanted it to. Under Humility its worse than Elspeth, though the untap ability is handy. As a general rule, you shouldn't play double costed spells of your splash color in this deck. Puts too many restrains on your manabase. So I'd play Decree instead of Garruk. Another concern is that I had to move out 1 Spell Snare to S/B (not enough slots maindeck :x) and in 5 matches out of 6 I had to bring it back. So 4 snares is must have. Other than that, deck worked marvelously.

A strange thought, does this deck have trouble against burn? If you don't have CB you would theoretically have a pile of dead cards in spot removal. If you do play anjani then living to drop it is obviously the nut high but otherwise?

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Originally Posted by jazzykat

A strange thought, does this deck have trouble against burn? If you don't have CB you would theoretically have a pile of dead cards in spot removal. If you do play anjani then living to drop it is obviously the nut high but otherwise?

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You might lose the first game, after you SB in Pulse/Negates, it just becomes funny.

You are most likely to lose game 1 to burn, unless you get ton of counters and a fast clock (elspeth).

Personally, I devote 3 straight S/B spots against burn in form of 1 Aegis/2 COP: Red, one tutor to search for these (and any other S/B cards), and from 2 to 4 Blue Blasts. Basically, you need to survive till you get COP or Aegis online.

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Originally Posted by Tinefol

You are most likely to lose game 1 to burn, unless you get ton of counters and a fast clock (elspeth).

Personally, I devote 3 straight S/B spots against burn in form of 1 Aegis/2 COP: Red, one tutor to search for these (and any other S/B cards), and from 2 to 4 Blue Blasts. Basically, you need to survive till you get COP or Aegis online.

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Don't you think the Aegis/COP take up crucial spots on your SB? Personally, having Negates (or BEB/Hydroblast) in with Pulse is more effective, and more versatile. Plus, the enchantments are a little overkill. You shouldn't *need* to play them post SB.

I did use to play with 2x Aegis pre-Wishboard adjustment though.

I simply don't run Cunning Wish. Besides, Burn is one of these generally bad match ups that are easiliy fixed by sideboard, so its better be safe than sorry.

The real problem I have are paranoid Merfolk players in my meta, who run Annul and Spellstutter Sprites maindeck (along with FoW, Daze and the damned Cursecatchers). That kind of setup makes the match up slightly unfavourable, and I just have no idea on what to run in s/b against it. Plague works, but only if you stick it early enough and if there are no lords, which is hard. Any ideas?

Instead of Negate, I've been using Counterbalance. I have to do more testing, but I imagine its strictly better against burn in the long run, as well as other matchups.

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Originally Posted by Tinefol

I simply don't run Cunning Wish. Besides, Burn is one of these generally bad match ups that are easiliy fixed by sideboard, so its better be safe than sorry.

The real problem I have are paranoid Merfolk players in my meta, who run Annul and Spellstutter Sprites maindeck (along with FoW, Daze and the damned Cursecatchers). That kind of setup makes the match up slightly unfavourable, and I just have no idea on what to run in s/b against it. Plague works, but only if you stick it early enough and if there are no lords, which is hard. Any ideas?

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There's always the original and ever amusing WOG. EE is also pretty darn effective depending on if you play enough basics to layout a solid manabase.

What's wrong with Ajani sb against burn/zoo? He even turns into a wincon if you get him to stick around.

Ajani is the life gain spell of choice if you aren't running cunning wish against the burn/zoo/goyf sligh.

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Game 3, I kept a strong hand in fact. It had 1 Island, Standstill, FOW, Factory, Factory, Sea, BS. I FOWed turn 1 Lackey (he was on the play) and I played a land but he dropped vial so Standstill was dead.

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1 Island
2 Factory
1 Sea
1 Standstill
1 B.s.
1 FOW

On the draw, against which model of goblins again? (MR,RG,RB,RGB?)
The very simple reason why I wouldn't have taken this hand is because it forces you to overextend into t1 vial, t1 lackey (On the draw) Not to mention it doesn' have a fetch for a white source, and that it has no removal at all. Simply put, you obviously saw why you can not take hands like these because almost every t1-t3-t4 play by goblins just rapes you. This was not only not a strong hand (against goblins) I would consider it fundamental misjudgement on your part. I'm not trying to sound like a dick but with all the tools you had you took a risk on game 3 and you lost. Your blue splash as you found out is not what beats goblins, its the white and potentially black splashes that hammer them.

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I had the feeling that this was going to happen but I REALLY NEED to FOW Lackey instead of vial since I had no StP/BEB and I can't block with factory if he went first.

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Exactly. But this is why Mulliganing would have been he choice you should have made. Standstill is your reach card in the mid-game when you solve the board problem. It allows you to extend into the late game against gobbos.

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@Moss: EP is a little too narrow in my meta. It answers goblins, and I've yet to test it against Ichorid. I think it slows Ichorid down, but not much unless you get double EP, which would be golden. What shines against Ichorid is Extirpate and aggressive mulligan and wastelands/vindicate to keep them off their land, slowing the dredging since they can no longer rely on their spells to dredge, and you force them to dredge and overextend. Furthermore, the newer Ichorid lists board in Greater Gargadon, which EP fails to resolve the problem since Gargadon ignores EP and can attack from multiple directions, giving the deck a headache. From testing, one just needs to counter inital discard outlets, hopefully disrupt their manabase (this is usually not common, but would be huge) and then stalling with EE until you find Extirpate to seal the deal. Pithing Needle on EE is a bitch although in Vindcate builds, you have another out. I've found that 2-3 Paths instead of 2-3 EP is much better since it answers threat-light decks such as Thresh and Team America, and it destroys Zoo. EP is great against Merfolks and Goblins and Elves, much better than Path, and my meta isn't infested with them, which I am glad so I choose 2-3 Paths instead.

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I understand that if you don't have the tribal matches as much then it isn't as relivent.

Pate fyi is the weakest of the removal packages you can bring in against ichorid. The only reason wish for pate is a strong play is because it answers things like loosing right away. It gives you additional time to answer any additional problems the board has for you. I don't see GG used in ichorid. What do they take out in order to use it? Ill spot some lists and do some recon testing, but the last time I checked this matchup out it was in my favor pre-board and even heavier post board.

Yeah Moss I agree that I should have mulled that hand, but how am I to gamble on a hand that had the potential of landing Standstill if he does not resolve vial? If I mulled and got no FOW/removal for Lackey, then mulling to 5 would be even riskier. I took my bets on the first hand with an answer to lackey. The deal was my opponent was playing super conservatively, i.e. he wasn't going for the throat like goblins, so I was under the impression that he kept a weak/slow hand (as in games 1 and 2, which frustratingly, I did not win them since his draws were crappy and my draws were even worse).

Against Gobs, I boarded out 1 Standstill (playing 3 after board) since they run vial. I think that resolving an early standstill is just out of the question but a standstill in the mid-game spells GG for them unless you're as pro as me to draw crap in a deck that draws half their deck during the course of a match lol.

I'll probably give EP a shot after M10 since I'm expecting my friend to play Survival Elves as a comeback. Pate is a little slow against Ichorid but if you have 1 MD and maybe a MTutor to tutor for it and 1 in the wishboard, it becomes much stronger. That's the only time I really think MTutor is good when you have 2 Pates in the SB. With Relic and FOW backup against Needles, you can usually slow-roll them until you lock them out. It's definitely not an easy matchup though but my dredge players in my meta are all new so the matchup should not be as tough against an experienced dredge player.

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Originally Posted by jazzykat

There's always the original and ever amusing WOG. EE is also pretty darn effective depending on if you play enough basics to layout a solid manabase.

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The problem with EE and humility is that they're weak to Annul (maindecked here). WoG is pretty effective, but against merfolk, the earliest you can successfully cast it is generally your 6th land drop (assuming they waste at least one your land, and you need 1 mana open to be Daze/Cursecatcher proof). Sometimes your 6th land drop is about too late. My only thought is to go paranoid too and play with R splash for cheap clasm and blast effects and perhaps even Fire//Ice

I always board out at least 3 Standstills against decks running both wasteland and vial. If they're also running manlands (like merfolk), or port (like goblins) I tend to board out all Standstills. Simply because you can't afford to gamble in these matches, and every dead card early game card is going to cost you alot. Against decks running only vial (no wasteland) I board out 1-2 Standstills, especially if on the draw.

Hey guys,

I got ended splitting up for first place in a tournament today.

I won against Survival Elves, Aggro-Loam( in 2 straight games), Countertop.

Won against Countertop again in the top 4, and split the top.

Benie

Grats, list and report plz.

Would like to see the report against aggro loam. I believe it's not an easy matchup and the games are usually very long due to the resiliency of both decks.

A list would be nice and I would like more details on the aggro-loam MU. CB-top matchups are easy. Landstill doesn't really care about CB and can cast EE@2 for converted mana cost 3 or more with colorless lands.

Good job!

what part of the matchup are you having a problem with? which models?

Also are you sure your establishing the difference between multiple color loam variants as well as aggro loam?

Hey guys, been a lurker for a while and I feel ready to talk seriously about Landstill now that I have tested it against a variety of decks. Have a look at my list and please feel free to tear it up, I dig new ideas.

I know I know, looks like a 4c and there is another thread for that. My main question is should I dump red as an alt color and go pure UWb? The tropical islands would be turned into plains/islands, and Ajani V. would turn into another land. Ajani has been amazing in testing, and buys me serious time to dig for removal or counters. His built in helix is online right as my health needs help. Even used his ultimate last night vs Zoo post wrath to clear the board completely. REB and Pyroblast have been crazy vs Merfolk and the mirror. Forcing into my REB gives me serious tempo.

My weakness is mana consistency. The two Tropicals are really islands that power REB from the board. (Ajani was a test run) Nonbasic hate destroys me. Obviously I am playing in a seriously aggro infested meta, and need answers for Zoo, Goblins, Merfolk, Dreadstill, ect.

Yan’s list inspired me to try this out.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=29172

Any advice before I take this to a serious tourney?



Lands
X4 Tundra
X3 Mishra’s Factory
X4 Flooded Strand
X1 Bloodstained Mire
X3 Volcanic Island
X2 Scrubland
X1 Academy Ruins
X2 Wasteland
X1 Island
X1 Plains

White
X3 Wrath of God
X1 Humility
X4 Swords to Plowshares
X1 Eternal Dragon
X1 Decree of Justice

Blue
X4 Force of Will
X3 Spell Snare
X3 Counterspell
X4 Brainstorm
X2 Cunning Wish
X3 Standstill

Artifacts
X3 Engineered Explosives
X1 N. Disk

Walkers
X1 Jace
X2 Elspeth
X1 Ajani Vengeant

Other
X2 Vindicate

Sideboard
X1 Extirpate
X2 E. Plague
X1 Humility
X2 Negate
X1 Pyroblast
X1 Red Ele Blast
X1 Dismantling blow
X1 Mystical Tutor
X1 Path to Exile
X1 Return to Dust
X1 Pulse the Fields
X1 Misdirection
X1 Hydroblast

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Originally Posted by Romanus

Hey guys, been a lurker for a while and I feel ready to talk seriously about Landstill now that I have tested it against a variety of decks. Have a look at my list and please feel free to tear it up, I dig new ideas.

I know I know, looks like a 4c and there is another thread for that. My main question is should I dump red as an alt color and go pure UWb? The tropical islands would be turned into plains/islands, and Ajani V. would turn into another land. Ajani has been amazing in testing, and buys me serious time to dig for removal or counters. His built in helix is online right as my health needs help. Even used his ultimate last night vs Zoo post wrath to clear the board completely. REB and Pyroblast have been crazy vs Merfolk and the mirror. Forcing into my REB gives me serious tempo.

My weakness is mana consistency. The two Tropicals are really islands that power REB from the board. (Ajani was a test run) Nonbasic hate destroys me. Obviously I am playing in a seriously aggro infested meta, and need answers for Zoo, Goblins, Merfolk, Dreadstill, ect.

Yan’s list inspired me to try this out.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=29172

Any advice before I take this to a serious tourney?



Lands
X4 Tundra
X3 Mishra’s Factory
X4 Flooded Strand
X1 Bloodstained Mire
X3 Volcanic Island
X2 Scrubland
X1 Academy Ruins
X2 Wasteland
X1 Island
X1 Plains

White
X3 Wrath of God
X1 Humility
X4 Swords to Plowshares
X1 Eternal Dragon
X1 Decree of Justice

Blue
X4 Force of Will
X3 Spell Snare
X3 Counterspell
X4 Brainstorm
X2 Cunning Wish
X3 Standstill

Artifacts
X3 Engineered Explosives
X1 N. Disk

Walkers
X1 Jace
X2 Elspeth
X1 Ajani Vengeant

Other
X2 Vindicate

Sideboard
X1 Extirpate
X2 E. Plague
X1 Humility
X2 Negate
X1 Pyroblast
X1 Red Ele Blast
X1 Dismantling blow
X1 Mystical Tutor
X1 Path to Exile
X1 Return to Dust
X1 Pulse the Fields
X1 Misdirection
X1 Hydroblast

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Well it's nice to see some new blood in here :). Welcome to the Land Still thread. About Yahn's list.

I pissed and moaned all over this list when I first saw it. I didn't like 0 manipulation, 2 crucibles, ect., ect., ect.

Then Rockout and Konsultant both stated that it plays like a standard deck; and I settled down, and tested it (Part of this was when I was having trouble with my own wish still which happens every now and again) So my own personal opinion is that Yahn's model although cool, is not really viable from a standpoint that it lacks not only deck manipulation but that it's answers are simply too weak to hold up on a consistent basis. Part of the reason UWb Landstill survived so long is that it is very resilient to the meta-game and just general ass-hattery that an opponent may or may not have handy. It's also resilliant to the rules of the game (See Combat phase, taka taka taka Joel made -a- funny.)

Anyways all I can dig up is this so heres what you get:



Konsultant's post following the first view of the list.

About your list. I think you have alot of the right ideas in mind. I see where your thinking and your pretty close to having an idea of what newer land still is like. Go out and test some games, and pay particular attention to your resources particularly your land. Then you will understand exactly why four color doesn't work right now in legacy.

Thanks for the reply Mossivo. After some further testing last night I can see where you are coming from. Our Goblin player mana screwed me bad with some timely waste draws and my girlfriend ( a nasty Zoo player) priced me for lethal twice. Went back to a UWb shell and tore both of them up. We talked about it for a bit and came to the same conclusion you did.

The options red gives me make tougher matches like Merfolk a tad easier, but opens me up to nonbasic hate, making the matches I should win harder. I do not like that trade off, so back to UWb I go! More testing tonight and I will update a list.

Thanks again. :cool:

you mine as well play path to exile and Engineered plague with 10-11 maindecked removal spells.

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Originally Posted by crz87

Would like to see the report against aggro loam. I believe it's not an easy matchup and the games are usually very long due to the resiliency of both decks.

A list would be nice and I would like more details on the aggro-loam MU. CB-top matchups are easy. Landstill doesn't really care about CB and can cast EE@2 for converted mana cost 3 or more with colorless lands.

Good job!

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Working on translating the report...

Loam was quite possitive. Game 1 Humility is your best weapon. With 2 Fact or Fiction, 4 Standstill you can keep up with there Loam engine in the early/midgame. They can't deal with Plainswalkers.

Postboard 7 Plows works to keep the big beaters away for good, Crucible nulifies Wasteland and Plainswalkers quicken the clock. That and 4 Relic of Progenitus of course.

Benie

Thanks for the advice! I am considering the 3rd Path in the SB. And playing along with 3 Negate, and maybe 3 Relic. Burn isn't an issue as it used to be since if you resolve Wish->Pulse, you're all good. I've been less fond of BEB and like Negate in its place, but in a Zoo/Goblin/aggro meta, maybe BEB is better. Negate is good against ANT, and that's all I have to worry, and I do like that slot instead of hate-bears. I've played aggro loam for practice without the SB and it was tough. I'm sure 7 StP is more than enough for their 12 (recurring) threats (RGb aggro-loam is the superior version IMO). The main deal is to stop Terravore, and Relic seems hot. I just never practiced that MU with the board.

People should try out Teferi's Response in a LD heavy meta. It's super funny yet devastating. My reasoning for its possible SB in a LD heavy meta is that it not only protects against LD, BUT it also protects attacking Mishra's which are super common targets for creature removals. As far as I've tested. 2 Teferi's Response in the SB for LD heavy meta is really good, but I strongly advice against it unless your meta is 50% LD since it's a win-more card (not too win more if it's >50%LD meta). Surprisingly, it's never a dead card since Mishras are a common bolt/StP target as well. It's awesome to destroy Lavamancer targetting Mishra's for the lulz :P

Anyway, I'm working on a new version of Landstill. I'll post lists here and on N&D. The playstyle is very different, and it can be seen as an evolution of a vindicateless Speedstill.

How do you guys handle the ANT matchup? Even with 3 MMage and 3 Scullers in the board, I have a hard time... (but then again, I'm up to the best ANT players in the world) I dont need advice on how to play against it, that I know, but more on SB card choices, and estimates on this matchup from you. Is there any wishable tech?

(I guess, 10-90 preboard, unless they start gambling. postboard 50-50 at best)

Orim's chant to wish for? I had some success with Ethersworn Canonist, guess that works better against ANT than Sculler. Combined with MMage - almost a hard lock. It also works with Enlightened Tutor, much like Sculler.

I've got 3 canonists in my board as well. Sometimes they're completely dead but MM on wipe away + canonist is good game, most of the time.
Edit: Do you have Runed Halo in your sideboard? Between Halo, MM and some random hate (sculler, canonist) you should be able to drop enough hate to keep them from going off.

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Originally Posted by Ectoplasm

I've got 3 canonists in my board as well. Sometimes they're completely dead but MM on wipe away + canonist is good game, most of the time.
Edit: Do you have Runed Halo in your sideboard? Between Halo, MM and some random hate (sculler, canonist) you should be able to drop enough hate to keep them from going off.

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When I was running Vindicate-Still (Konsultant's list with minor variations), I had great success with 3 halo/3 Mage. They did double duty against control and were generally enough alongside the 10 permission and land destruction to fight through tendrils. I've always thought sculler was the weakest choice, honestly.

Why MM on Wipe Away? Most combo decks I see pack kgrip/other bounce post board as well, so it only takes one removal spell to get through that lock.

On the wish-still list, I really want to fit in a second humility/disk. I know Moss already runs both, but he had to bump up to 61 cards and down to 23 lands with no dragons to do it. I think my list is (to avoid posting another decklist) his -1 relic, -1 disk, -1 SDT, +1 FoF, +1 tolaria west. Is it worth cutting draw #9 and blue card#20 to get another big 4cc bomb? Meh, I don't know if I like it.

I used to run 4 mage 3 halo and never had a problem with combo. That was back before I ran spell snare. Currently I'm running 3x negate out of the board and it has been stellar. Weird how I take out combo hate and I still don't really lose to combo all that often.

Just run 61 cards. All the cool kids are doing it.

I'm using 60. My list is almost a mirror of Moss' actually, but I have relic in the sideboard instead of the main.

Would 61 be better? I can see land screw happening more and drawing the Relic instead of something needed and being just too late.

I like the clock that sculler gives, instead of Runed Halo. All their bounce works on Halo too, anyway.

I like the versitility of Sculler, it is good versus Agroloam, Dreadstill, and even the mirror.

Wishable Chant works only against noob-combo players, which I regretfully do not encounter.

MMage on Wipe Away is a weak choice, unless it is your 4th mage on the table or something. Just name Tendrils with the first, and Ad Nauseam with the second.

@ Rockout: consider yourself a lucky man.

Man, I wish Extract was an instant!

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Originally Posted by Elf_Ascetic

@ Rockout: consider yourself a lucky man.

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It's true. I am the king of top decks amongst my play circle.

I don't have much luck against ANT with UWb. I win now and then off of a fistful of counters but they win more often off of Duress or Orim's Chant and then going off. The Doomsday FT matchup is pretty dreadful also. I never see TES so I don't know how that matchup goes, it might be a bit better because of Spell Snare on Burning Wish but I doubt it.

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Originally Posted by Elf_Ascetic

I like the clock that sculler gives, instead of Runed Halo. All their bounce works on Halo too, anyway.

I like the versitility of Sculler, it is good versus Agroloam, Dreadstill, and even the mirror.

Wishable Chant works only against noob-combo players, which I regretfully do not encounter.

MMage on Wipe Away is a weak choice, unless it is your 4th mage on the table or something. Just name Tendrils with the first, and Ad Nauseam with the second.

@ Rockout: consider yourself a lucky man.

Man, I wish Extract was an instant!

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Normally against ANT, I would name Tendrils with both G2. Most of the opponents I played only boarded in Chain of Vapor. Double Meddling Mage spells GG then. If you G2 like this, you probably right on boarding G3. Allthough It depends on the life-total too. Meddling Mage puts a tiny clock on the opponent. If he is below 13 lands Orim's Chant would be a better call, because it shuts down IGG-loop most of the time and you can sandbag counters against Ad Nauseam.

But then again, just 50 miles west of Elf_Ascetic's homebase, where I play, the ANT players are quite weak.

Benie

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Originally Posted by Elf_Ascetic

MMage on Wipe Away is a weak choice, unless it is your 4th mage on the table or something. Just name Tendrils with the first, and Ad Nauseam with the second.

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Ofc you're not gonna name wipe away if it's the only thing on the table, but dropping a mage on wipe away while a canonist is out spells gg for your opponent since you can just sit on counters for the odd slaughter pact/chain of vapor.

Then again I rarely play against (good) comboplayers so I might just underestimate cards like duress that can and will screw you up.

I played a list very close to mossivos but without relic in the main 60.
There was a small tourney that thursday again and I again finished first, this time with 3-0-1.
I won two very close games again Canadian, then had to play against Loam and got the Disk+Elspeth Combo twice with counterbackup for assault. Without Disk I would have been totally wrecked but I´m still not concerned about it.
I´m gonna test it at tomorrows tournament against and give you a short report
about it. B
ut my real "desire" is to find out whether to play disk on sunday(big tourney) or not :/ Im expecting a very random meta so I think disk should be fine :S
What do you think (Moss?)? Any new consolidated findings on that card?

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Originally Posted by Ectoplasm

Then again I rarely play against (good) comboplayers so I might just underestimate cards like duress that can and will screw you up.

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If you play against a Storm combo player who has a lot of experience with the deck in question, and experience beating control, it becomes very hard to beat them. It's possible, but it's not probable in most cases.

Duress is a huge problem, especially when you don't have Brainstorm in hand to hide things. Even then you run the risk of hiding the counter you will need later in the turn, even on a fairly early turn.

Counterbalance is the control device most likely to dominate Storm combo and even then it needs to be backed up by a real clock to make it fully effective.