Miracle Control

Hello fellas, I found myself in times of trouble when I asked myself "What would Joe Cool do?"
The matter was my sideboard plan, specifically vs bug decks.
Here's my current list:

1 arid mesa
4 scalding tarn
4 flooded strand
3 tundra
2 volcanic island
3 island
2 plains
1 mountain
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
3 predict
1 counterspell
4 force of will
3 counterbalance
4 sensei's divining top
2 jace, the mind sculptor
2 entreat the angels
3 snapcaster mage
1 council's judgement
1 engineered explosives
4 terminus
4 swords to plowshares

Current sideboard:
3 cliques
3 flusterstorm
4 reb/pyro
2 surgical
2 wear/tear
1 kozilek return

I switched to predict + entreats 2 weeks ago, coming from Angelo's list and I really like how the deck performs against bug decks, especially by blanking their abrupt decays.
That's why I would like to switch away from the beloved cliques. ANT is less common than before and my plan vs bug would be to make their decays a dead card.

What cards could fit the slot of the cliques, being strong vs combo and mirror matches?
Cards I'm considering (but I welcoming accept suggestions:

- Counterspell
- The fourth CB
- The fifth REB
- From the ashes (this would not really go in the slot, but I would like to find a place for this card)
- Moat, Humility or other funny enchantments
- Keranos (not really an option, but I love the card)

Thanks in advance to the clergy.

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Originally Posted by Agrippa91

What do you guys think is the best finisher/comeback card against a stifle delver player (in my case grixis). Jace seems bad because of Pyroblast, Entreat sucks against stifle and flusterstorm and Mentor is often times bad because it's pretty bad in topdeck mode and doesn't stop Delver/DRS.

I mean I get it that any of these cards can finish off Grixis when Miracles has them in a lock already, but often times Miracles needs a more proactive card to stem the bleeding, otherwise Delver just 1-for-1s them and wins because it doesn't play out all its lands and thus generally has way more spells in hand.

Any thoughts?

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Vedalken Shackles.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Vedalken Shackles.

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God I wish. Fuckin' Abrupt Decay man. There are still a few matchups where shackles is insane, but far too few to justify using the sideboard slot for it.

with Abrupt Decay, Ancient Grudge and Null Rod around.

ooook

Keranos, trust me. You just fear the counter on the cast and then you win with it and a couple of sweepers

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Originally Posted by Poron

Keranos, trust me. You just fear the counter on the cast and then you win with it and a couple of sweepers

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I have played Keranos against miracles in other, shitty decks. Card is amazing in the matchup if it resolves. Back when I was doing it Miracles wasn't playing 4 REBs, but it's still possible to force through resolution of a big spell if you need to, and I do like not dying to the infinite REBs like Jace does.

yes you have to set up its casting and then it's pretty much done, but that nowadays needs CB Top with 1cc on top and couple of counters in hand before jamming it.

Great card against both 4c Delver, TNN-Leovold Sultai, Sultai Shardless or Delver version and Miracle.

It dodges Pierce and Snare and it's impossible to destroy once on the battlefield.

It fears Cspell and FoW.

I wouldn't play more than 1 honestly. 2 Pyroclasm are possibly necessary to live enough to see it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pische

Hello fellas, I found myself in times of trouble when I asked myself "What would Joe Cool do?"

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Joe Cool would put up an appropriate avatar picture in his profile.

Is anyone still trying out Gideon for the mirror or has that pretty much been abandoned?

The mirror nowadays feels so dependent on red blasts; it would be nice to have a win condition that dodges it, and isn't easy to answer like Mentor.

Both Gideon and Elspeth, KE are good. Although Elspeth might be better vs BGx decks.

As for Clique, it probably doesn't hurt boarding in the Cliques vs BGx decks. It is less committal when trying to keep the BGx opponent's honest.

If they see a sea of Predicts game 1 against you, they are probably savvy enough to board out all their Abrupt Decays. In which case, I'm sure they are just dead vs Clique if they boarded out their Decays. If they do keep them in, just be glad that you didnt tap out on your own turn for Counterbalance.

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Originally Posted by gh0st_b1rd

Both Gideon and Elspeth, KE are good. Although Elspeth might be better vs BGx decks.

As for Clique, it probably doesn't hurt boarding in the Cliques vs BGx decks. It is less committal when trying to keep the BGx opponent's honest.

If they see a sea of Predicts game 1 against you, they are probably savvy enough to board out all their Abrupt Decays. In which case, I'm sure they are just dead vs Clique if they boarded out their Decays. If they do keep them in, just be glad that you didnt tap out on your own turn for Counterbalance.

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Why do you say Elspeth is better against BUG?

Big fan of Elspeth btw, I just feel like she's been outclassed by Gideon a bit, but would love an excuse to run with Elspeth XD

I agree that Clique is good against BUG. Clique getting decayed is not that big of a deal if you cast it on their EOT.

It gets red blasted, sure. But "it gets red blasted" is the becoming the new "dies to doom blade" in this thread.

How many forces do you guys usually side out against BUG/4c Czech pile type decks? They're nice for countering high value cards like Jace/Garruk/Library. But you certainly don't want to get flooded on them.

Elspeth is better at slaying opposing Planeswalkers because of the flying.

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Originally Posted by FZA

Why do you say Elspeth is better against BUG?

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Because in certain circumstances Elspeth can trade with other Planeswalkers in the face of opposing creatures. Granted you need to have played Elspeth first.

I could be entirely wrong in this case and that Gideon is just better by force, but it felt like when being forced "to do nothing," Elspeth is improving her loyalty while Gideon's ceiling is just make a 2/2 and opportunistically an Emblem.

For whatever its worth, Elspeth runs into incidental mentor hate like Sulfur Elemental or Dread of Night worse than Gideon

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

Joe Cool would put up an appropriate avatar picture in his profile.

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I fixed it.

Hey, guys! Been a lurker for a while, first time poster!

I've been following/watching Legacy for a while now, and I've decided to dive in. I've chosen to adopt Miracles, as it seems to be one of (if not the) strongest decks right now, and offers a good way to learn the meta, while also having a super high ceiling that rewards practice and promotes growth.

With all that being said, I am technically "new" to Legacy, so I was wondering what list you all would recommend for someone starting out. Of note, I'll be moving soon, so I'd be walking into an unknown meta, so I wouldn't be able to gear the deck super-hard to any prevalent threats, at least main-deck-wise.

I've definitely watched/studied Joe Lossett's list the most, but my understanding is that, although he believes it's the strongest iteration, it takes the most skill and familiarity to pilot excellently, which it requires in order to be a better choice than more stock lists. I'd definitely like to have an Entreat or two in my 75, but I'm not sure I'm ready for 2x Venser and 3x Clique yet.

So what do you all recommend for a good starting point in my Miracles journey?? Thanks in advance!

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Originally Posted by TheSlipperiestBogle

So what do you all recommend for a good starting point in my Miracles journey?? Thanks in advance!

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As with any control decks in any format, control deck is just a bad starting point for a format. A control deck requires you to trade 1-for-1 correctly and understand what to counter in each MU. This was true with Sphinx Revelation Standard while back as it is true in Legacy. In other words, Miracles should not be your first Legacy deck.

If you insist, then you should try the 2~4 Mentor build first. Legend Miracles popularized by Lossett has the longest learning curve of all Miracles and most Miracles builds have long learning curve comparing to other Legacy decks to begin with. Please learn to operate with SDT efficiently and to avoid draws first, before you try to make good use of Karakas.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pische

Hello fellas, I found myself in times of trouble when I asked myself "What would Joe Cool do?"
The matter was my sideboard plan, specifically vs bug decks.
Here's my current list:

1 arid mesa
4 scalding tarn
4 flooded strand
3 tundra
2 volcanic island
3 island
2 plains
1 mountain
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
3 predict
1 counterspell
4 force of will
3 counterbalance
4 sensei's divining top
2 jace, the mind sculptor
2 entreat the angels
3 snapcaster mage
1 council's judgement
1 engineered explosives
4 terminus
4 swords to plowshares

Current sideboard:
3 cliques
3 flusterstorm
4 reb/pyro
2 surgical
2 wear/tear
1 kozilek return

I switched to predict + entreats 2 weeks ago, coming from Angelo's list and I really like how the deck performs against bug decks, especially by blanking their abrupt decays.
That's why I would like to switch away from the beloved cliques. ANT is less common than before and my plan vs bug would be to make their decays a dead card.

What cards could fit the slot of the cliques, being strong vs combo and mirror matches?
Cards I'm considering (but I welcoming accept suggestions:

- Counterspell
- The fourth CB
- The fifth REB
- From the ashes (this would not really go in the slot, but I would like to find a place for this card)
- Moat, Humility or other funny enchantments
- Keranos (not really an option, but I love the card)

Thanks in advance to the clergy.

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Even with Decay Clique is fine. But I don't play it anymore and have +1 Gideon +1 From the Ashes +1 Snapcaster

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Originally Posted by Pische

I fixed it.

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You should try to not use the same one as someone else....

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Originally Posted by Minniehajj

You should try to not use the same one as someone else....

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God, I thought it was an easier task.
I'm searching...
...found one!

So uhh 448 players in legacy euro champs... predict miracles mirror in the finals.