[Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

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Originally Posted by idraleo

Meloku sucks, Spire sucks, they doesn' t win any MU and doesn't improve it too.

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Definitively, the only creatures playable in MUC is Morphling, Rainbow, and Vendillion, at least Sower if you want to trick over Shackles.

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Not true.

If you take the closeminded view that the only effective finishers in MUC are Morphling/Rainbow and the deck can't be improved, you probably don't ever work on decks. It's not a coincidence that when I went through this thread several people with Morphling builds said were either going to time or just getting blown out of the water before they ever got a chance to do anything.

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Threads is dead almost the time because tons of decks plays high CmC creatures to avoid CB effect; Threads is dead against stompy.deck., landstill, rock control, mirror, comboish and still goes on.

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Absolutely 110% not true.

Threads is pretty much never dead. The last tournament I went to had 50 people and at least half of the room was packing Tarmogoyf. That's not counting the 5 or so decks with meddling mage and the 2-3 goblin decks. Not coincidentally, half the top 8 had goyf also. There was actually only one deck in the top 8 that threads would not have hit (ichorid). Threads is completely dead against combo/Ichorid, that's about it. In those cases you have an easy card to pitch to Force of Will and then you can just side it out. There's nothing wrong with having a card maindeck that gets sided out alot and anyone who plays alot of tournaments will tell you that.


I mean if you disagree with some card choices then fine, but give some valid reasons why. 'They suck' isn't going to cut it.

- Dave

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Originally Posted by Dxfiler

Not true.

If you take the closeminded view that the only effective finishers in MUC are Morphling/Rainbow and the deck can't be improved, you probably don't ever work on decks. It's not a coincidence that when I went through this thread several people with Morphling builds said were either going to time or just getting blown out of the water before they ever got a chance to do anything.

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I don't know about this, although to an extent I agree with your other comments. I have never once gone to time with MUC because of my choice of finisher. Meloku also really doesn't help here because going all in with it is usually too risky to get away with and is much more easily removed. Still, I think simply with familiarity with your deck there's no reason you should go to time with MUC unless you're playing against Turbo-Fog or something. I mean seriously, if Randy Buehler can play a deck with nothing but a single Rainbow Efreet and 4 Stalking Stones to kill with and go 6-0 I don't think running Morphling over Meloku is really an excuse for going to time.

Anyway, as far as Threads go it is true they aren't dead a lot of time. But just because something isn't dead doesn't mean it's the correct choice. You say you had trouble with swarm decks, Affinity, Goblins, etc. Threads really doesn't help their due to its lack of speed and the fact that attempting to win with 1 for 1s against the aformentioned decks is like trying to kill a hive of bees with a toothpick. Maybe once in a million you'll get lucky, but the rest of the time reality will set in.

What matchups does Threads really improve that something like say Propaganda wouldn't? I would argue Propaganda is better against Thresh because it makes them choose between cantripping and attacking, and it also affects Mongoose. Propaganda is also better against Landstill because it makes it damn near impossible for them to afford to attack you with manlands, although Propaganda isn't exactly the bees knees there either. Propaganda is also infinitely better against swarm decks than Threads. I mean... I honestly can't think of a situation where I'd want threads over Propaganda in a deck that also plays Vedalken Shackles. It just seems highly sub-optimal. I'm sure it wasn't bad, but I'm also sure it could be better.

I'd like to think that I am a mono-blue control player. I loved Buehler's Draw-Go and frequently we would sit around and randomly play those World Championship decks and I think I am the only one who loved getting Draw-Go. I loved it; if others played it, they would complain about how it only ran one Rainbow Efreet and couldn't be effective with one win condition. I know that is the difference between us who love the fact mono blue can bring it without really looking scary.

The argument of Engineered Explosives (and thus Brainstorm and fetches) versus Powder Keg could be eliminated if you claim you want to run a true MUC with only blue (and artifact) cards. If that argument is not good enough for you, I will explain why Powder Keg is much better for MUC. Powder Keg destroys artifacts whereas Explosives destroys non-land permanents. I have done much testing against random landstill decks and Kegging away Factories is a good thing in game 1. Plus, I recently played in a Legacy tournament and defeated Affinity in 9 total turns. Not a game, but the match. Kegging away their lands games one and two followed by a Shackles or a Propaganda just caused them to scoop. Also (it was already said but I would like to reiterate the point because it is important) fetches open up for the opponent to Stone Rain you for 1. Stifling your land is not good for a deck that needs to be making a land drop every turn nearly every turn for the majority of the game. So if fetches are bad, then Brainstorm isn't very good either. Impulse is much better.

That brings me to one of my decks that I made top 8 with in Minnesota a couple months back:

1 Academy Ruins
23 Snow-Covered Islands

1 Morphling
1 Meloku
1 Teferi

4 Force of Will
4 Force Spike
4 Counterspell
2 Cryptic Command

3 Back to Basics
4 Vedalken Shackles
4 Powder Keg

4 Ancestral Vision
4 Impulse

Sb:
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Teferi
1 Back to Basics
3 Disrupt
2 Spell Snare
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast

Sorry for the Snow-Covered Islands - I was using Owl (don't laugh please) before I had Morphling. The Impulse was huge as it was used to dig for the perfect card whether it be a B2B, Powder Keg, or even a land. Ancestral Vision was great card advantage and even though it is slow, I'm not trying to win in one turn.

End of turn Teferi was a shock to many people playing against me, but it makes Meloku (the best creature in Legacy) and Morphling simply ridiculous. Against landstill Teferi eats Factories and against threshold Teferi eats Mongoose (a huge problem for me because I can't Shackles it and I can only stop it with Kegs).

I played Cryptic Command because the landstill decks were playing around the counterspells to stick a Humility and without that as an out, my day is ruined with Humility in play.

I regretted not having Propagandas when I lost to Ichorid in round two, but my deck did very well. I drew with a MUCish deck that used fetches and brainstorms (but was also trying to play landstill...I was very confused) but I would have beaten him game three if he wouldn't have Needled my Morphling game three (I swung for three on the final turn of time called - I needed five to kill). Like I said, I got stomped by Ichorid in round two. The Disrupts helped me skim a win in game two, but a turn one win on game three ended my day. From there, I went on to beat a countertop Goyf deck (not exactly thresh), stomp Goblins, easily defeat Cephalid Breakfast with the Kiki-Jiki kill (yay for multiple Powder Kegs at zero and two Shackles in play!), and finally beat a white-blue-green threshold deck. I was the seven seed and took on a two-seeded BG Rock deck. That matchup was way too easy. Steal creatures with Shackles and win...thanks green Ophidian. Then I played a tempo threshold deck and the burn getting directed at my face, coupled with a Mongoose that wasn't countered was too much for me. I lost to Dredge to take fourth.

Recently, though, I played again in another tournament. I brought a similar deck but it didn't do as well and I think I know why. Here is the list:

1 Academy Ruins
23 Snow-Covered Islands

1 Morphling
1 Meloku
1 Teferi

4 Force of Will
4 Force Spike
4 Counterspell
2 Cryptic Command

3 Back to Basics
4 Vedalken Shackles
4 Powder Keg

4 Ancestral Vision
4 Fact or Fiction

Sb:
4 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Teferi
1 Back to Basics
3 Propaganda
4 Blue Elemental Blast

I liked the Pithing Needle in the sideboard and the Engineered Explosives were extra token-killers and Mongoose-killers. I will admit it; this deck got stomped by the competition. I was probably in the bottom 20. Part of it was bad luck and I think the main reason I was having bad luck with my draws was because of the card draw selection. The major difference between this and the previous is Fact or Fiction AND Ancestral Vision. I definitely loved Fact or Fiction, but Vision seemed like it was out of place. The main point is I needed to have something that digs quick. Impulse would have been huge. Initially going into the tournament I thought this was going to be an issue but I couldn't fit what I thought would be the best in my deck -
4x Impulse
4x Fact or Fiction
2x Ancestral Vision
So in my case I think it would have been best to run either Impulse and Vision or Impulse and Fact or Fiction.

Also another huge piece is Spell Snare. I played a mirror match in round three that annihilated me with Spell Snare. He won every major counterwar and I could not stick a Teferi or Morphling for the win. I was contemplating after the tournament to cut Force Spike for Spell Snare simply because Force Spike was sitting dead in my hand for many games.

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Originally Posted by team17

Why isn't Forbid mentioned, it is a very good card lategame and not that bad early game.

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To comment on the issue of Forbid - if you are casting Forbid, you are either in desperation mode and have nothing better to counter with (and thus are not reaping the benefits of buyback) or you are winning. If you already have the card advantage without Forbid then you obviously don't need it to win.

Sorry for the long post; I just wanted to get my comments in. I love the idea of Foil in the deck - I will have to try fitting it in. I am going to play with my sideboard some more and see what Jace and Declaration of Naught can do for me. I like Disrupts too; I shouldn't have cut them.

Dominus of Will UUUUU
Creature - Spirit Avatar Rare
Flying
At the beginning of your upkeep, untap and gain control of target permanent until end of turn.
It gains haste until end of turn.
4/4

Potential?

Don't think so. He doesn't protect himself, he doesn't affect the board state, he's a bad blocker. He's the fastest clock MUC could ever get, but MUC doesn't really care about speed.

Regarding Meloku as a Finisher:

He has no Shroud and requires you to return land - that's it.
I can't imagine more disadvantages although I have to admit that no Shroud is quite a big one.
But Meloku does what the other Finishers can't do: influence the board!
Meloku stalls the game at low life and buys you the time to get out of the current position.
I recently killed a Dreadnought with it and it singlehandly won me some games against all my Thresh-opponents who board out Removal (since it is useless against Morphling) - and he won me games that would have gone to time otherwise by swinging for 10+ or so in the last extra turn lol.

'Pling is also a solid blocker. Just sayin'. While not the biggest ever, it tends to stall even 6/7 Goyfs and eats 4/5s for breakfast. All that while putting opponent on a 4-turn clock.

But Morphling can only block 1 creature at a time.
Sure, I am not saying Meloku is best, but someone playing MUC for a long time has probably made the experience that you might still lose a game to an opponent who swarms you, especially multiple Nimble Mongoose are deadly in most cases (and you still need 4 Mana to pump up Morphling without getting rid of 6/7 Goyf).
Meloku usually buys enough time to find the needed out (read: Shackles / EE / Bounce / whatever).
Once again, I'd never run Morphling over Meloku but Meloku is still a solid finisher which abilities fit some situations that others don't.

While we are on the subject of Meloku, I would like to give my experience from the latest tournament I played in. It was late in the game and I was at very little life (he got me down to 6 with his Scathe Zombiesesque attacks with Trinket Mage - I couldn't find a Shackles to steal it before then :frown: ) and I stuck a Meloku and brought him down to 8 in a couple turns and going to kill him on my next turn by making 2 more fliers. We both had nothing relevant in our hands thanks to the counterwar over Meloku. He Sensei's Topped on his turn, flipped it, and found Sower of Temptation 3 down. He cast it, stole my Meloku and he killed me on his next turn. Shroud is huge, and that could be an argument for Morphling over Meloku...but then again, I still think Meloku is the best creature in the format because it generates a larger swing in board position than Morphling.

And I don't like Rainbow Efreet. It is too mana intensive for it to be useful, but that is my opinion.

Rainbow Efreet is too expensive, yes. But he dodges everything, and that's what make him so good in MUC. And with his 3 power, you have to attack 5-6 times most of the time.
Morphling is ofcourse the best creature to play, but there aren't any good other creatures to play except morphling and efreet. Meloku is a possibility but i don't like him.

Rainbow Efreet is run entirely because it is the only finisher that survives Pernicious Deed. Period. Yes, it's incredibly inefficient and lacking in spectacularity compared to Meloku and Morphling, but it can be surprisingly important against 4c Landstill and the like. In fact, I daresay that is the sole reason to run Rainbow Efreet. If you don't expect a lot of Deeds and other related mass removal, don't run Efreet. Run a Meloku, or whatever suits your fancy.

Hi' I'm playing legacy for a while but I've mostly been playing agro decks like Sui-Black, Dragon Stompy, 5/3,...; and wanted something that didn't cause me to throw up my hand on the field and just bash my opponent brainless...

Would this list be a good starting point?

2x Powder Keg
3x Vedalken Shackles
2x Morphling
1x Rainbow Efreet
4x Back to Basics
4x Counterspell
4x Cryptic Command
4x Fact or Fiction
4x Force of Will
4x Spell Snare
24x Island
4x Ancestral Vision

Sideboard
2x Powder Keg
4x Tormod’s Cryp
4x Propaganda
4x Stifle

Any pointers would be welcome :)

Greetzzzz
Robin.

It's not bad but i should cut the Cryptic Commands for Propaganda's. 4 Propaganda's are often very good, but it depends a bit on your meta.

OK how about -1 BTB (to sideboard), -2 Cryptic Command and +3 propaganda (1 remains in side) then?

Because the cryptic's are really cool :D.

This also gives me an extra sideboard slot, or should that just be a cryptic then?

Ohw, and I noticed some version playing impulse, what the opinion on that card, also someone i know has been playing MUC with brainstorm, fetch and counterbalance/Sensei's divining top, has this already been discussed? (Its a long thread and I'm to lazy to read every page)

Greetzz,
Robin.

Cryptic's are cool in lategame, so you can run a few MD if you really want. 3 Propaganda's is a good number, although i prefer 4. If you see allot non-basics (thresh, landstill and many other decks) you'd better run 4 b2b because they are winning matches.
You can play Echoing Truth sideboard. They take care of annoying tokes (Empty the Warrens, Bridge from Below)

Don't play impulse. Only play brainstorm if you run fetches. Countertop is already discussed but it doesn't work really well in MUC. I hope other people can give a bit more information about this, because i can't :tongue:

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Originally Posted by team17

Cryptic's are cool in lategame, so you can run a few MD if you really want. 3 Propaganda's is a good number, although i prefer 4. If you see allot non-basics (thresh, landstill and many other decks) you'd better run 4 b2b because they are winning matches.
You can play Echoing Truth sideboard. They take care of annoying tokes (Empty the Warrens, Bridge from Below)

Don't play impulse. Only play brainstorm if you run fetches. Countertop is already discussed but it doesn't work really well in MUC. I hope other people can give a bit more information about this, because i can't :tongue:

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Why not play Impulse? In the more permanent-centric versions of the deck Impulse is rather vaulable because it igs for answers in a quick fashion and leaves mana open to cast them in the early game, whereas FoF and AV are too slow to dig for Propaganda or Shackles against Goblins or other agro, which is an important role to fill in the deck. I can see the exclusion of Imulse in the apropriate metagames, but to discount them entirely seems a bit prematurely dismissive, to say the least.

On a CBT(tm) related note, why not play Sensei's Divining Top? You know, by itself? CB is rather ineffective here, but the card selection from Top couldn't be a bad thing, right? I presume it's actually a question of wethe it's better than the slots it would take... and I really can't say which slots it would take. It doesn't serve the same role as Impulse, as Impules gets you an answer NOW, whereas SDT fixes draws and is a long term investment for general CQ. Eh, I presume it's actually a question of whether SDT would be worthwhile without shuffle effects and whatnot. I'd say that it makes FoF and Impulse better, and they make it better, so... perhaps. Maybe in the MMUC builds with Fetchies and Brainstorm, but I'm more interested in it's aplications in the "regular" build of the deck.

Really, that's what I thought. So I'm testing SDT in my permanent orientated MUC build. I know that without any ways of shuffling, SDT loses a lot of power... But i still like it.

my MD:
23 Island

1 morphling
1 rainbow efreet
1 guile

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare
4 Impulse
3 Fact or Fiction
1 Echoing Truth

2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Powder Keg
3 Vedalken shackles
3 Back to Basics
3 Propaganda

SB
4 Pithing needle
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Divert
3 Hydroblast
1 Back to Basics

I know, the sideboard needs a bit of tweaking... But I just started playing MUC. The choice for Guile may seem strange but I like his abilities and he protects me a turn against servant/stone

tips/tricks/plain flaming... bring it:P

I said don't play impulse because I don't see it in MUC decks alot. Actually it is good to find your answer (b2b, propaganda, shackles) so it isn't bad :rolleyes:. Only problem is that it only draws one card. FoF and Visions draw more cards (often). I dunno about SDT, let me hear the results please.

But when u decide to play SDT, then Brainstorm+Fetch would make it an even better engine given that brainstorm+fetch virtually nets u 2 cards anyway, and with SDT+fetch it gives you a reliable engine to search trough your deck. B

ut I think the decklist is to tight to fit all those cards in.
However, I have no experience with this deck so I obviously could be dead wrong in this matter.

Well, the problem is; I also like echoing truth mainboard a lot... And the first card to be removed when I choose to play truth, would be SDT.

But then again; like I said... Even without ways to shuffle, the games I played with this, he turned out to be a welcome draw.