[Deck] The EPIC Elf Survival

Since Thornweald Archer was discussed as an answer to 'Stalker, maybe

Intrepid Hero 2W
Creature - Human Soldier

Tap: Destroy target creature
with power 4 or greater.

would fit in, which I think is superior to Archer. NOT an Elf, but doesn't matter that much as long as you stay above 32-33 Elves for Messenger. Hasted with Anger, and better on the offensive when it clears out annoying blockers. The deck doesn't have any removal otherwise, and dealing with 'Noughts (trampling over Archer) or defending Goyfs/'Stalkers can be annoying.

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Originally Posted by georgjorge

Since Thornweald Archer was discussed as an answer to 'Stalker, maybe

Intrepid Hero 2W
Creature - Human Soldier

Tap: Destroy target creature
with power 4 or greater.

would fit in, which I think is superior to Archer. NOT an Elf, but doesn't matter that much as long as you stay above 32-33 Elves for Messenger. Hasted with Anger, and better on the offensive when it clears out annoying blockers. The deck doesn't have any removal otherwise, and dealing with 'Noughts (trampling over Archer) or defending Goyfs/'Stalkers can be annoying.

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The underlined part on your post explains why he wouldnt be played, he just seems janky and narrow, most elves list recenty have dropped thornweild archer completely, and replaced him with a 3rd vanquisher. If your worried about nought, play a viridian shaman, if there are alot of flyers in your meta, just stick with thornweild archer.

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Originally Posted by murderface

If your worried about nought, play a viridian shaman, if there are alot of flyers in your meta, just stick with thornweild archer.

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...if you're worried about BOTH, and want to kill 'Goyfs and 'Vores while you're at it, play Intrepid Hero :smile: .

I also don't get why not being an Elf automatically makes a card - as a 1-of to be tutored for with Survival - unplayable. We also play Magus of the Moon as a 1-of. Not getting pumped by Lords isn't that imporant for an utility card, so the only worry is Messenger.

Maybe in the side then? The main consistency argument against it is that sure it's just one card, but we've already got several other critters that aren't elves. The bigger that non-elf stack gets, the worse a lot of our effects get.

Besides, Intrepid Hero is a terrible card. 2W for a 1/1 that isn't an elf, in this deck, is bad. That card would be so dead in many matchups. At least Thornweald Archer is a decent creature in it's own right, and deals with Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker just as well.

EDIT: Have you tried using Vexing Shusher as a 1of post board? It's only really strong use is to answer Counter-Top with a Survival on the board, but a solid card in alot of matchups nonetheless. Could always be just another Choke, or Harmonic Sliver or something. Wasted slot? What are your thoughts on Chameleon Collossus? It would just feel satisfying to run into that random black deck at a turnament, and have a very strong bomb to tutor for early.

So di, how do you feel about boarding such against dreadstill, taking out survivals to bring in grips. I have been testing and have liked running seven lords and 3 vanquishers, it gives us a better early timewalks against goyf and also the merfolk that seem to be rising in popularity...Vanquisher has just been too good and i haven't missed the lord spot at all.

Also, after boarding out survivals against red blue dreadstill, i found his fisrt turn play was needle on survival, it won me the game because he wasted it.

I just read through the whole thread and afterwards searched my cardpiles for Elf-cards.
There I found a little guy called Elvish Harbinger. Isn't it equal / slighty better than the Wood Elves everyone seems to hate?
Pro:
+) He generates mana of every color
+) He puts the Elf you want on top, even without Survival.
Con:
-) You don't get a land for further permanent use. (but opponents should have enough better targets for removal-spells)

Just a random thought, but I would like to hear your opinions about this.

It does not make your elves angry.

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Originally Posted by Waikiki

It does not make your elves angry.

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You should have enough fetchies to get hold of a Taiga, but you have a point here.

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Originally Posted by Radiant

I just read through the whole thread and afterwards searched my cardpiles for Elf-cards.
There I found a little guy called Elvish Harbinger. Isn't it equal / slighty better than the Wood Elves everyone seems to hate?
Pro:
+) He generates mana of every color
+) He puts the Elf you want on top, even without Survival.
Con:
-) You don't get a land for further permanent use. (but opponents should have enough better targets for removal-spells)

Just a random thought, but I would like to hear your opinions about this.

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And test the deck and you will see the wood elves shinannigans.

Interesting creature this Elvish Harbringer.
Downpoint is that this Elf doenst filter your deck of one land.
Also you cant always use it right away if you don't have Anger in your graveyard.

You could use this Elf instead of 4x the Llanowar or Fyndhorn, so you have the ability to cast every color of mana you need, its a slightly tougher elf (2 instead of 1) and you can manipulate your draws.
Sounds interesting.

Another point I would like to bring up is how bringing back Glimpse of Nature would help this deck or not.

Glimpse is a terrible card IMO. Long before I read this thread and learned there was such a thing as Elf Survival, when I was playing my own version of Survival + Glimpse Elf engine, Glimpse was easily the worst card. It relied on resolving 3 cards to go off, and even then it was not consistent, not to mention the deck is dead if either piece of the combo is missing. I can understand how it's good in Glimpse elves (which IMO is a much inferior Elf deck compared to EPIC Elf Survival), but in our deck, we have no way to continually cast creatures without untapping Priest, and there's a limit to that with Symbiote.


Di! Any idea on possible deck progress? The list on starcitygames seems to be really tight and optimized. I've been considering on dropping to 16 lands and upping the ESG to 4 copies for help against storm-based combo with turn 1 Thorn.

My current sideboard is:
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Choke
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Absolute Law
2 Krosan Grip
2 Chalice of the Void

I think the deck's main loss is against Aggro Loam and combo. I tried Chalice against combo. 2 in the SB has been good, although I might be interested in running 3 Chalice, 3 Thorn. I would board out 1-2 mana elves, 2 quirion ranger and some elves against combo and hope to Chalice/Thorn turn 1 with mulligans. That is why I'm asking if running 16 lands and 4 ESG destabilizes the mana-base. It has been less optimal but it should improve the combo matchup by a lot.

And as much as we're dismissing Intrepid Hero, he really does do everything against huge creatures. He has the same weakness that the deck doesn't want though, i.e. dies to everything and isn't an elf.

I have been testing 3 natural order and 1 progenitus maindeck. I have found it to be very good. Lots of decks scoop to it. Though I don't know if it improves our bad matchup, but it should improve aggro-loam and others decks packing firespout or deed. It is a four card Oups-I-win against all the aggro control decks and it is counterbalance proof. I am trying to find a way to beat goyf-sligh without the white splash. Has anyone an idea ? There is
harmony of nature (2G tap one green creature gain 4 life) which may be good but I haven't tested it yet.

Wouldn't Wellwisher be better if you wanted to gain lots of life?

Just so im up to date, so this build has dropped squee altogether? Also, has wizards changed the errata on ESG, does it count as an elf? Other then that, i am liking the recent builds, they are real fun to play, and pretty competitive

Squee is easily the weakest card in the deck. The deck doesn't need CA as the traditional Survival lists do. The CA in the deck comes from resolving Messenger, not Squee. Squee takes so many turns to set up and abuse, and is fitted more in a controllish/comboish Survival build. This deck is a more aggro focused build. Squee is too slow for it, and doesn't synergize with the tribal, and more importantly, doesn't synergize with the needs and goals of the deck.

ESG is a spirit Elf, which is why we're in discussion whether to play 3-4 copies since flipping ESG after Messenger is much better than flipping lands.

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Originally Posted by crz87

Squee is easily the weakest card in the deck. The deck doesn't need CA as the traditional Survival lists do. The CA in the deck comes from resolving Messenger, not Squee. Squee takes so many turns to set up and abuse, and is fitted more in a controllish/comboish Survival build. This deck is a more aggro focused build. Squee is too slow for it, and doesn't synergize with the tribal, and more importantly, doesn't synergize with the needs and goals of the deck.

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I disagree: spending one additional green mana to get Squee out of your library is much less clunky than having to chain Messengers or than eventually running out of gas.
When playing this deck, you can distinguish between two main situations, regarding Survival:

• Either you drop some mana-elves early, drop some beaters and only then draw into Survival. At this point, you're usually somewhat low on cards in hand, especially on creatures, since you deployed them all to the board in order to be able to go aggro (and maintain said aggressiveness in the face of removal, blockers, and disruption). If you don't play Squee, you now have to waste your first turn or two (depending on how many lands and/or Priest of Titanias you have in play), after drawing and playing Survival, in order to get a Sylvan Messenger - otherwise Survival would be no good as it would be no more than an overpriced Eladamri's Call (which is only good on rather rare occasions). After resolving Messenger, you'll again have to waste some mana around 2 turns later, as you deployed the creatures you got out of it to the board, or ditched them to Survival - once again, you loose tempo. Compare this to just getting out Squee on your first turn and starting to drop some additional fat right away, and being able to conte to do so afterwards, without any further investment - it is just plainly better because it's less mana intensive (compare the one-time investment of G to the repeated investment of 3G) and gives your opponent less leeway to disrupt you.
• The other possible situation is you having Survival in your opening seven. In this case, you're going to drop a mana-elf on your first and Survival on your second turn. At this point, spending one mana to fetch a Squee doesn't make any difference as you're going to spend a full turn to set up Survival (i.e. fetch Anger and Priest of Titanias or Rofellos + Quirion Ranger) anyway: the one mana doesn't make any difference but allows you to play more aggressively later due to, once again, not having to fetch expensive Messengers to sustain Survival.

In synthesis, the Card Advantage of Squee is a mere benefit: it's the fact that playing Squee lets you play more aggressively (as in "playing without wasting tempo every so many turns") that makes playing him superior to not playing him.
The fact that he's not an Elf is irrelevant as you're still going to have around 30 elves in your deck which means that your Messengers are still better than the oh so feared Goblin Ringleaders - the one game out of a dozen you get one card less out of your Messenger is irrelevant if compared to aforementioned drawbacks of not playing Squee.
Also, with Squee, you make sure to never run out of gas with Survival on the board whereas in a Messenger-only-build, counters and random stuff like land destruction, removal on your mana-elfes or Humility will be able to disrupt your active Survival, giving the opponent free outs to an otherwise game-breaking enchantment.
Also, hardcasting Squee is not half a bad move... especially since Elf-Survival has a nasty tendency of not having many outs to tall guys anyway.

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Originally Posted by Xero

Wouldn't Wellwisher be better if you wanted to gain lots of life?

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The probability of Wellwisher surviving against a deck with 12+ Burnspells and postboard access to Pyroclasm is close to non-existent - and even if it does survive one turn, it won't be that great due to you always being low on creatures against Goyf Sligh: if your opponent knows what he's doing, he's directing all of his burn onto your guys, killing your mana-elves (especially Priest of Titania) and your blockers like mad, and just relying on creatures to deal damage - this way he slows down your development (you're pretty much dependant on mana-elves) which buys his creatures more time to swing in and therewith makes up for the loss of reach his burn would otherwise provide.

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Originally Posted by adrieng

I have been testing 3 natural order and 1 progenitus maindeck. I have found it to be very good. Lots of decks scoop to it. Though I don't know if it improves our bad matchup, but it should improve aggro-loam and others decks packing firespout or deed. It is a four card Oups-I-win against all the aggro control decks and it is counterbalance proof.

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Natural Order + Progenitus, does, in fact, make a good addition to the deck - it's not about being good against hate or anything: it is good because it adds more power to the deck. This is important because otherwise you're dependent on Survival and Messenger to win games (it's not like playing fair with mediocre beaters and some random synergy wins any games against anything)... and 8 cards are not exactly something you have reliably in a deck with no draw.
Do play 4 Natural Orders, though - they're just that solid (as in 'unrestricted Tinker-Colossus' solid).

On Squee; on thougher match ups i miss squee ... Especially if the opponent can stall you enough and get rid of your early critters, i find myself relying often on my topdeck (hoping it will be a messenger) ... therefor, I'm considering to put squee in (not sure what will go out, but I am not super impressed with the vanquishers).
On natural order/progenitus: this looks nice, but what do you cut from your deck then? I'm just afraid that it will alter the deck too much ...

Would it be standard to include a gaea's blessing in side? Because in my experience the painter matchup is bad ...

Thanks for any comments ;-)

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Originally Posted by Teumie

On Squee; on thougher match ups i miss squee ... Especially if the opponent can stall you enough and get rid of your early critters, i find myself relying often on my topdeck (hoping it will be a messenger) ... therefor, I'm considering to put squee in (not sure what will go out, but I am not super impressed with the vanquishers).
On natural order/progenitus: this looks nice, but what do you cut from your deck then? I'm just afraid that it will alter the deck too much ...

Would it be standard to include a gaea's blessing in side? Because in my experience the painter matchup is bad ...

Thanks for any comments ;-)

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From my experience, so far I haven't really needed Squee (I've mostly been playing against monored Goblins, Imperial Painter, Fetchland Tendrils these days).

Typically, I've actually found the Messengers to be not as useful in general since I'm usually trying to combo out and I'm pitching them to get my combo pieces together.

Which Painter matchup are you talking about, Teumie? I've played against Imperial Painter quite a bit and haven't found the matchup to be too terrible (they can sometimes randomly win against you, but you tend to be more consistant and post-board, you have a lot of nastiness you can bring in).

Vanquishers have been hit or miss for me. They're amazing when you're trying to aggro out on someone since they'll beat up smaller guys like Bobs and Goblins. They'll also trade with Goyfs as well, which is a huge bonus. Other times I've had them in hand and just pitched them to Survival to try and combo out, so I can't really say I've ever been disappointed to see one.

on Squee: i missed him during a particular matchup against survival/rock. after you run out of your first creatures and he can delay you enough, I found myself in top deck mode ... I haven't played with a squee yet, so I'm only guessing that it would help me, especially since later in the game, one extra green mana is not gonna make the difference ...

on that painter matchup: it was terrible in that sense that he was more consistent than me (once he had his painter +grindstone + 3mana, it was game).Especially since he knew what to counter in my deck, which resulted in me not really being able to go off ...

on the vanquishers: sometimes they are just great, but in most cases (i.E. gobo's, bobs and goyf) i like a lord more (especially with forest walk) to just go aggro. It is a great creature, but the deathtouch ability is only useful in a few matchups imo.

I also found it very difficult (to almost impossible) to go off on turn three ... mostly it is 4 or 5 with me (unless I'm doing something wrong or forgetting something).