Re: [Deck] Updated: R/G/W Zoo
Manman, that build sacrifices WAY too much for too little gain imho. Where's the finishers, the big beatsticks, the pump or StP/PtE to deal with guys that are out of burn range?
First, Teeg is legendary. I wouldn't play beyond 3 maindeck.
Also, Ethersworn Canonist is NOT a good card to maindeck imo. It hurts combo but beyond that it hurts your own deck far more than it does an average opponent's deck.
Outside of combo, your build is the lowest curved deck in the metagame. So you'll be a lot more likely to want to play out multiple threats/burn in one turn than most opponents.
If combo is prevalent enough that you want maindeck hate for it, please don't play Zoo in the first place. Zoo has about the worst matchup agianst combo of any deck.
If you want utility, cut the two weakest creatures (Isamaru and Watchwolf) in Joon's build and replace them with utility.
So basically play this...
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Savannah
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Gadook Teeg
3 Tin-Street Holligan
3 Woolly Thoctar
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
2 Rancor
Re: [Deck] Updated: R/G/W Zoo
Path to Exile... is terrible for the deck.
I'm willing to debate that some with whoever wants to.
Re: [Deck] Updated: R/G/W Zoo
I agree, to a point. I think its a meta call overall. In mine, Im going to run swords. Simply because people play a LOT of basic lands. In a meta where its heavy nonbasics (lots of multi color decks or whatever the reason) then, and only then, would exile be better imo.
Re: [Deck] Updated: R/G/W Zoo
I just don't see the life gain being ANY problem at all except MAYBE when you hit a Dreadnaught with it, besides that i don't think ramping the opponent is worth it.
But it is great against TA:cool:
Re: [Deck] Updated: R/G/W Zoo
Well yea, exactly. You should have enough creatures in play to counter any lifegain from swords, hence why I use it.
And I wouldnt use it if I knew they had basics, like I said. But you cant dispute that its better than swords when they get absolutely nothing for the loss of the creature.
So its situational I suppose. I would run swords over it any day though since you never really know what the decks are gonna have.
Re: [Deck] Updated: R/G/W Zoo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Captain Hammer
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Savannah
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Horizon Canopy
Nice mana-base my friend :cool:
Re: [Deck] Updated: R/G/W Zoo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jimmerz213
Well yea, exactly. You should have enough creatures in play to counter any lifegain from swords, hence why I use it.
I don't know. Swords "fog" effect on your next attack can matter sometimes, where the land (+shuffle) you give them might be useless for them.
As example, on turn 2/3 UGW thresh is playing a goyf. They probably won't need the 3rd/4th land unless they play (and have in hand) an Oblivion Ring or an Enforcer AND they don't have already another land in hand. Otherwise it's just useless. Since you're playing Path as midgame removal then they might already have enough lands in play.
I found Path to exhile to be a better card in boros (life matters A LOT), but I don't know if it's better here too. Sure it's better in some circumstances, you just need to recognize qhich situations will come more often in your meta.
Re: [Deck] Updated: R/G/W Zoo
I used to run swords but then I started to run into alot of Loxodon Hierarchs and that life gain slows you down so much.
Re: [Deck] Updated: R/G/W Zoo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Loxodon Baileyarch
Nice mana-base my friend :cool:
It's the same manabase as in the OP and Joon's build, but yeah, I know right?
Like I said in that post, that was Joon's exact build but with his Watchwolfs and Isamarus (the two weakest creatures in his deck imo) replaced with utiilty creatures, because that's what Manman was looking for, more utility.
Frankly, GADOOK TEEG IS FANTANSTIC against everything. Yes, your opponent always kills it asap. But that's just one less removal spell your opponent has to take out your Thoctor/Tarmogoyf.
I think every single Zoo build should play 3 Gadook Teeg cutting away stuff like Isamaru or even Watchwolf.
The 3 Tin-Street Hooligan only makes sense in an artifact heavy metagame though.
So I suppose the perfect build would look like this...
List looks okay. I would up the anti-combo cards in your sideboard though, just because I don't like the idea of autolosing to any and all storm based combo. But hey, it's all about what you expect ot face.
Here is the list that I would play...
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Savannah
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Gadook Teeg
3 Woolly Thoctar
2 Additional Creatures
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Lightning Helix
2 Price of Progress/Fireblast
4 PtE/StP
2 Rancor
The two additional creatures would probably be Watchwolf. But a case could be made for any of the following...
Watchwolf
Isamaru, Hound of Konda
Figure of Destiny
Skyshroud Elite
Skyshroud War Beast
or if additional utility is desired...
Grim Lavamancer
Goblin Legionaire
Vexing Shusher
Tin-Street Hooligan
Ethersworn Canonist
Everyone of these creatures probably merits some consideration/discussion.
Re: [Deck] Updated: R/G/W Zoo
@Frank the Tank: If you are running into a LOT of Rock decks in your meta, say 30% or more, play something else like Dredge. Otherwise, just SB in Needles for Deed and hope for the best. But remember, decks like Rock are supposed to beat aggro decks like Goblins, Zoo, and Affinity. Most people are afraid to run Hierarchs because Goyf exists, but those smart enough to run Hierarchs in Rock, it spells really bad news for Zoo.
@ Joon: Pretty solid list, Teeg is better in the board VS everything which is why he is run. Cannonist is better at stopping storm combo but thats it. Teeg stops EE, Wrath, Belcher, etc. Play Rancor at your own risk, but it will hurt in the long run, and when you start getting 2-1ed it can catch up to you fast.
As a new idea to the deck, my list is still the same in the opening post, except I have cut 1x Isamaru and put in 1x Path to Exhile. 22x instead of 23 creatures doesn't make any kind of noticeable difference. Randomly when goldfishing I kept getting 2 Isamaru and decided to cut one to avoid this, which still keeping the consistency of a turn 1 creature in tact. I am searching for hidden gem creatures to replace Goblin Legionnaire but there really just aren't any better. FoD sucks to much early on, however, since these slots are usually sided out, it does not make much of a difference.
Re: [Deck] Updated: R/G/W Zoo
has anyone tried playing Skyshroud War Beast at least in the side?
Re: [Deck] Updated: R/G/W Zoo
@FrankTheTank: That card seems good against Landstill??
Re: [Deck] Updated: R/G/W Zoo
You're right Frank the Tank, that card does seem like it has potential. Against certain decks it'll be a 3/3 minimum, and a 4/4 or even 5/5.
I edited and added it to my list of playable creatures in the post below the OP.
Re: [Deck] Updated: R/G/W Zoo
Fine, I edited out my opinion that the list in the OP doesn't seem like a typical or ideal zoo list. No hard feelings
Yes, I have played the deck enough to form an opinion. But yes, you have more experience with the deck and more playtime under your belt.
So maybe you're right about your build.
It just doesn't seem like the the typical list. No one plays Goblin Legionaire. I've never ran into a build that did anyways. It's practically a 3cc shock. And I sincerely tried but grew to dislike FoD the more I played with it as did a lot of people here.
Not including Chain Lightning certainly seems like a mistake. Your bolt effects lets you trade even your small creatures with every single creature in the format except for Dreadnought. And the burn also add tremendous reach. So it's never ever ever dead. Other than burn and sligh, none of the decks in the format have a manabase capable of bouncing Chain Lightning back at you so that's really not an issue. And even against those very occasional burn/sligh decks, you can easily time Chain to be most advantagous to you.
And yet, you didn't even mention Chain Lightning in your primer. That seems to be a pretty big oversight.
Re: [Deck] Updated: R/G/W Zoo
@Captain Hammer: It isn't the typical list really. People just think Zoo has to kill your opponent by turn four through 6 or the deck isn't playing right. That isn't true. Sure the decks strengths are in cheap efficient beaters but that doesn't mean you have to run Rancor and Fireblast in every build.
And Chain Lightning has been tested, ALOT. The sorcery speed of it all makes it a headache to play when you could just replace it. And trust me i've had Chain turned around on my ass so many times.. It just sits there dead in my hand. Hell if anything i'd rather have Ancient Grudge or Gaddock Teeg in that spot.
Goblin Legionnaire is mana intensive yes, but just look at our list, it has the possibility to kill the opponent quickly just as much as other lists, but it also is a HOUSE in the mid to late game as well.
But yeah no hard feelings, it's just the internet after all :cool:
Re: [Deck] Updated: R/G/W Zoo
I guess I will toss in my build while we are at it.
// Lands
1 [UNH] Mountain
1 [UNH] Forest
3 [R] Taiga
2 [R] Savannah
1 [UNH] Plains
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [R] Plateau
// Creatures
3 [ALA] Woolly Thoctar
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [RAV] Watchwolf
4 [R] Kird Ape
2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
// Spells
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [RAV] Lightning Helix
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
2 [TE] Cursed Scroll
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
2 [UL] Rancor
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
I only run 19 lands and I am thinking of cutting it to 18. Also the 2 cursed scrolls help so much late game that it is crazy.
Re: [Deck] Updated: R/G/W Zoo
@FrankTheTank: I would add the 20th land at least.
I would go, -1 Woolly Thoctar, -2 Rancor. +1 Savannah, +2 Jitte. Or +1 Gaddock Teeg, +1 Savannah, +1 PTE.
Or you could be pro and run Ancient Grudge in the maindeck:cool:
Also, do you really need Ancient Grudge AND Krosan Grip?
Re: [Deck] Updated: R/G/W Zoo
Yeah, good to see there is another person in this thread who has actually tested out Cursed Scroll and see how good it is. Running 18 lands is not a good plan. You can try it, but when you start losing to prison effects and 1-2 Wastelands/Sinkholes, it will be bad times. In order to run Thoctar, I think the bare minimum is 19, but I would not go below 20 ever.
Also, Krosan Grip should probably be Naturalize if you are going to run so few lands OR you could run Ray of Revelation in that spot! I used to run that before I had to re-adjust the SB to fit the meta.
Re: [Deck] Updated: R/G/W Zoo
I have been running 19 lands since i started to build this deck and I never have any problems with draws etc. Maybe I am just lucky but I usually smoke decks like Team america.
I used to run Jitte's but since changing them out for rancors they really speed up the deck. I use it more for trample then anything else .
Sure I don't need Ancient Grudge and K Grips in side but i put them in for Vial Goblins etc (Grudge) and Mono blue control, top, deed, Counterbalance, Shackles etc for K Grip. I just really liked the option of the split second for all things blue or the massive removal for stacks, or any other deck with a ton of artifacts.
