Cascade Hypergenesis

FYI, re: Eureka: Any abilities that trigger due to these cards coming into play do not actually resolve until after the entire Eureka effect is done resolving. [WotC Rules Team 1998/02/01] ...So you can't steal anything with Vend-Clique until after all Eureka-choices are put into play. Now, continuous effects *do* start working, so I can see this going down:

You: Eureka, Progenitus
Them: Humility
You: Vend-Clique
Them: Moat
You: :cry:

I think the point of playing the Cascade is that it's a cheap tactic that allows you to play the Natural-Order style deck with less mana.

I do agree that you'd probably want to choose 2 of the 3 cascade spells for manabase stability. However, your list is firstly a different concept than the one in this thread (it lacks cascade AND hypergenesis :laugh: ) and secondly it's going to have to wait longer to dump its hand -- 4 mana for Eureka for multiple drops, 3 mana for Show & Tell for a single drop. I also think that 7 land + 8 fetches is going to screw you over eventually.

One thing you're forgetting, though, is that Violent Outburst is an instant, giving you a fair chance to drop your hand on your opponent's turn, then untapping for the kill.

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Originally Posted by mujadaddy

So you can't steal anything with Vend-Clique until after all Eureka-choices are put into play.

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I don't get your point. What do you think I'd want to steal with Vend Clique ??? I did not get the Humility point neither, since it concerns both Hypergenesis and Eureka.

If I sum up, you open yourself to chalice, counterbalance, meddling mage, stifle, trickbind, mana denial, just to gain 1 turn ? It looks like a very bad idea. I'm really wondering which position has emidln regarding this, because he's the one that has traded the most speed for resilience with his FT deck.

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Originally Posted by Maveric78f

I don't get your point. What do you think I'd want to steal with Vend Clique ??? I did not get the Humility point neither, since it concerns both Hypergenesis and Eureka.

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You would WANT to deny them the Humility or Wrath/Damnation (or whatever), but with Eureka you cannot, as CitP abilities don't trigger until after the Eureka finishes, leaving nothing in hand worthwhile to "steal away."

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Originally Posted by Maveric78f

If I sum up, you open yourself to chalice, counterbalance, meddling mage, stifle, trickbind, mana denial, just to gain 1 turn ? It looks like a very bad idea.

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Mana denial - I completely agree that the rainbow land plan is extremely easy to hate upon. I built a version last night along the lines of my suggestion above (~12 fetchlands, ~8 basics, ~2 Duals (savannah & volcanic island, fyi)) and it worked rather well, from a manabase perspective. The only issue was that's 22 lands, so although it was stable & easy to hit my mana, I felt like I didn't have enough "juice" in the hand to drop, once I hit Hypergenesis.

Mage, stifle--Yes. This is certainly an argument for adding alternatives to the deck, but not necessarily one for NOT playing Hypergenesis. With FoWs, Adding Show & Tell is a pretty easy choice. Maybe not 4 though.

Chalice & Counterbalance-- Yes. This is why I'm leaning to 4 FoWs and 4 Krosan Grips as the defense package, with the Misdirections in the SB.

I also agree that Ponder & Brainstorm should have a place in there. Really, the thing that I think I might cut? The Spirit Guides. With a 22-land, mostly basics manabase, I've found myself flooded with them, and when I have an Ardent Plea in hand, they're complete chaff. I suppose they're pretty good for the Violent Outbursts, though, so maybe 2+2...?

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Originally Posted by mujadaddy

You would WANT to deny them the Humility or Wrath/Damnation (or whatever), but with Eureka you cannot, as CitP abilities don't trigger until after the Eureka finishes, leaving nothing in hand worthwhile to "steal away."

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So you were pleaing against Vendilion Clique? Not against Eureka. It was really not clear...
Well, Vendilion Clique is supposed to be played, not put into play with Eureka or whatever. Actually, it's here to have an idea (an idea because you never know the card your opponent draws) if you can combo on your next turn. I don't know if it's relevant with the BS/ponder list though, since you don't need to get back your hypergenesis into the deck, and cantrips would do that better.

BTW, 15 lands + 6 guides is not that much risky (at least on the paper, because I don't test hypergenesis/eureka builds).

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Originally Posted by Maveric78f

So you were pleaing against Vendilion Clique? Not against Eureka. It was really not clear...

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Well, really I was just demonstrating that you *have* to cast Clique in order to get the protection from it, in the Eureka build.

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Originally Posted by Maveric78f

I don't know if it's relevant with the BS/ponder list though, since you don't need to get back your hypergenesis into the deck, and cantrips would do that better.

BTW, 15 lands + 6 guides is not that much risky (at least on the paper, because I don't test hypergenesis/eureka builds).

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It still scares me :laugh: but I think I'll give a try cutting a few lands out...first, I'll go to 18 from 22, then see how that treats me. Cutting 4 lands for 4 of (BS+Ponder) should make it liveable.

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Originally Posted by mujadaddy

Well, really I was just demonstrating that you *have* to cast Clique in order to get the protection from it, in the Eureka build.

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Once again, I don't understand why you insist that casting Clique is necessary only in the Eureka build.

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Originally Posted by Maveric78f

Once again, I don't understand why you insist that casting Clique is necessary only in the Eureka build.

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Until power-level errata is printed, the triggered abilities of the cards put into play with Hypergenesis occur as the card is put into play. Eureka specifically states ([WotC Rules Team 1998/02/01]) that the triggered abilities don't occur until after the Eureka has finished resolving. If ever Hypergenesis is modified to work exactly like Eureka, then there won't be a difference.

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Originally Posted by mujadaddy

Until power-level errata is printed, the triggered abilities of the cards put into play with Hypergenesis occur as the card is put into play. Eureka specifically states ([WotC Rules Team 1998/02/01]) that the triggered abilities don't occur until after the Eureka has finished resolving. If ever Hypergenesis is modified to work exactly like Eureka, then there won't be a difference.

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False.

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Originally Posted by Oracle ruling on Hypergenesis

10/15/2006 Anything that triggers during the resolution of this will wait to be put on the stack until everything is put into play and resolution is complete.

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Seems like Angel of Dispair (or something like it) would be better to do away with humility and other problematic permanents, or would Humility shut down Angel of Dispair's ability before it destroyed the Humility?

I hate Humility. It has such a requirement of understanding layers to play and play against that I wish it would just fall out of favor.

It's why I don't generally play creatures...

Pce,

--DC

VClique isn't as useful against Landstill off Hypergenesis (although I'd personally play it first), but it is good against a ton of other decks, notable black-based aggro and U/x aggro-control which are liable to be packing stuff like Diabolic Edict, Curfew, Wrath of God, Damnation/Wrath of God (moreso wrath), and other non-permanent hate that's splash hate from guys like Progenitus being a legit threat (and that type of hate is likely to continue if this deck sees heavy play).

I don't see a build with 4 Clique, 8 pitch magic, 13-14 big guys (Inkwell, Prog, SSS, E. Archeangel), 7-8 spirit guides, 11-12 cascade, and 15-16 lands being much more vulnerable to hate than a build with just 4 Force, 0 clique and a bunch of hasty guys. The hasty guys leave you open to far more stuff, and you only really care before you play a hypergenesis. The way I'd build this deck would guarantee that if I resolve hypergenesis I put something that's not raceable and not easily removed into play so my opp HAS to have Humility/EBridge/etc or they lose).

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Originally Posted by Jaynel

False.

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Well, then, there's that -- they *do* play the same, so Clique is only good as protection when hard-cast beforehand.

Cynic: Humility is a continuous effect, not one triggered by coming into play, so yes, Humility shuts down Angel of Despair and every other creature-based CitP-trigger. Technically, its effect starts as a state-based effect as soon as Hypergenesis/Eureka/Show&Tell finish resolving, before any CitP triggers happen. I'm pretty sure. :laugh:

Right, but does it take effect before Hypergenesis resolves? Gamestate isn't checked until after it's resolved is it? If it isn't, then they can play Humility, you can play Angel of Dispair, and it's effect triggers (this is all hazy, I played H-Genesis back when it first came out in casual), but doesn't resolve until after H-Genesis Resolves, so wouldn't that still work?

I'm not extremely educated on rules topics, I'm just trying to see what works. Hopefully someone who knows the in-depth explanations to how this stuff works can give some clarity...

I know I'm probably wrong, I just need to see it in the rules that I'm wrong before I can believe it.

Pce,

--DC

My understanding, and I'm prepared to be wrong, is that Humility changes the game-state (a continuous effect that is state-based) so that the CitP triggers never trigger. It would be like putting the Angel into play with the Humility already out.

To explain it rules-wise a bit better, as soon as anyone receives priority(upon resolution of the Hypergenesis), SBE's are checked. This is done "split-second style" -- no one can do anything about SBE's; they just happen. Continuous effects, such as Humility, are applied. THEN the game "notices" all these things have entered play. Under Humility, they're just 1/1's with no abilities, so nothing triggers when they enter play. Something like Aether Flash would notice, though, and trigger "as" they entered play.

Well that's stupid. That means even Venser wouldn't be able to do anything, right?

I hate Humility.

Pce,

--DC

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Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87

I hate Humility.

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There is no creature-based solution to Humility.

Fine. What about Deed? Doesn't screw up Cascade, it's a solution to lots of stuff, you can drop it with H-Genesis. It's a solution to quick aggro, it's just off the mana base. I guess there's O-Ring (on-color at least, tutorable via E. Tutor, as is Plea which could work out well) also, but I'm not sure that works well against as much stuff...

I worry about Humility because I know many landstill lists use it anyway, without this deck being popular, and if it gets popular then Humility will just get more popular and we'll have a bit of trouble on our hands.

Pce,

--DC

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Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87

Fine. What about Deed? Doesn't screw up Cascade, it's a solution to lots of stuff, you can drop it with H-Genesis. It's a solution to quick aggro, it's just off the mana base. I guess there's O-Ring (on-color at least, tutorable via E. Tutor, as is Plea which could work out well) also, but I'm not sure that works well against as much stuff...

I worry about Humility because I know many landstill lists use it anyway, without this deck being popular, and if it gets popular then Humility will just get more popular and we'll have a bit of trouble on our hands.

Pce,

--DC

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If you're dropping Deed with Hypergenesis, there IS no "off color" :laugh: ... You'd be a fool not to pack the best green-black spell there is in your sideboard, especially if you had a good chance of not having to pay for it.

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Originally Posted by mujadaddy

If you're dropping Deed with Hypergenesis, there IS no "off color" :laugh: ... You'd be a fool not to pack the best green-black spell there is in your sideboard, especially if you had a good chance of not having to pay for it.

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Right, I know that, all I'm saying is that there may be a problem on the board and you can't find H-Genesis and need to cast it.

Pce,

--DC

Just play Form of the Dragon if you're worried about Humility.

Or Oblivion Ring...