Would the format be more interesting without Tendrils of Agony?

Simply put, Tendril combo make red and green deck mostly unplayable. Playing a deck that has a 0% matchup against combo is silly. And i don't think that's the fault of the colors design, i think it's a fault of the storm mechanic, it's not a "combo" , much more a "uncounterable burn.dec".

Dragon is countered by much more card than Storm, the same goes for Belcher, Ichorid, Cephalid, Life, Hermit Druid.dec, etc etc (a lot of those are countered or hosed by fanatic, go go red!). The simple fact that those deck wouldn't be played in the presence of storm, and that many of those deck have their core card banned, it's a clear indicator on how much Storm isn't good for the format or either the banned list is terribly outdated.

p.s. And please don't put CotV in the list of "splashable hate". It may seems splashable because it's colorless but it really isn't.

You clearly missed my point entirely. Counterbalance is the only viable strategy that beats both Combo and has a shot against the rest of the field, apart from Merfolk which suffers from its own flaws. There are plenty decks at hand that beat CB Top but scoop it up to combo (board control, Landstill, Goblins) that can end the dominance of Counterbalance.

I just have the feeling nobody is answering the question in the OP unbiased and objectively as the combo, Merfolk and CB Top players want Tendrills around and the Aggro and board control players would love to see it banned. So maybe we'll just have to respect the outcome of the poll in the end.

Why do I get the sinking feeling that the majority of people voting and posting in this thread skipped right through the arguments and assumed the entire cause for the thread was "ZOMG combo decks are so unfair!!eleven!"?

I don't know how many people remember the old 1.5, but the way you look at fighting combo now and back then are just dramatically different.

Back then, no matter what deck you ran, you would have to determine how many cards you want in your SB to deal with Dragon. A list of common answers;

Black - Snuff Out, Coffin Purge, Withered Wretch
Blue - Blue Elemental Blast, Stifle, Seal of Removal
Green - Naturalize(K. Grip wasn't yes printed), Ground Seal, Night Soil
Red - Ok, so not that many 1-shot red answers, but I have seen Dragons killed by Bolt+Fireblast.
White - StP, Disenchant, Abolish
Colorless - Tormod's Crypt, Phyrexian Furnace, Wasteland, Ankh of Freaking Mishra.

The combo actually worked on the interaction between a few cards, which meant, and this is the important part; the deck was vulnerable to disruption at several points. And that disruption didn't even have to be particularly narrow. It was also compact, redundant, fast, and capable of running its own protection/disruption, which meant that it could perform well despite hate.

It was a much healthier deck for the format than any Tendrils deck could be, because Tendrils has virtually no vulnerabilities. The only things that stops Tendrils are counters, discard(sometimes), and extremely narrow cards like Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere, which aren't necessarily fast enough.



So I wouldn't mind seeing Tendrils banned, but I would certainly love to see WGD, Hermit Druid, Mask, Earthcraft, and Entomb unbanned.

Does anyone know what percentage the most popular Tendrils deck wins on the first turn?

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Originally Posted by Dembones

Does anyone know what percentage the most popular Tendrils deck wins on the first turn?

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It's probably something around 10%. Just a feeling, no data.

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Simply put, Tendril combo make red and green deck mostly unplayable.

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Show the data that says that no one plays Red or Green decks. Show me the data that says Red or Green decks perform worse than Tendrils decks.

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I'm glad so many people enjoy playing against Storm but it severely warps the format to a point where Aggro is just a worse choice than Control or Combo.

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Prove it. Do you have any solid information to back this argument up?

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I think Ichorid becomes more viable from a Tendrils ban, in part because it doesn't have to worry about getting raced by Tendrils

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If Tendrils disappeared, then dedicated board control decks, aggro, and Ichorid would increase in strength.

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How does Tendrils stop people from playing Ichorid? Seriously.

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I mean if a tournament is 6 rounds and you get paired against Tendrills decks twice, you are toast. So basically the choice for anyone planning on winning the tournament is to take control or combo.

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So, you're saying that no deck anywhere, except for control or Tendrils decks beat Tendrils? Prove it.

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The question is: do you like the outcome of the general metagame which has adapted to the possibility to playing against Tendrils combo?

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What "general metagame"? Where are you getting this data from that shows a dominance of Tendrils decks?

If you look at the the March + April data, you know how many Tendrils decks Top 8'ed? Out of 34 tournaments, so, a possible 272 top 8 slots, Tendrils decks top 8'ed.......EIGHT times. That's THREE FREAKING PERCENT. *

May? SIX. Out of 33 tournaments. That's TWO POINT THREE FREAKING PERCENT.*

So, you guys are really saying that a deck that top 8s roughly 2.5 percent of the time is warping the "metagame"? Is pushing all other combo decks out of existence?

I honestly don't get it.

*Note: I basically just ran through the top8 thread in the DTB forum and counted. Though the numbers may be only slightly off, they are still pretty accurate.

*edit* Also, for people who are saying that Tendrils stops other combo decks from being viable...Are you guys really saying that people are going "Hey! I'm gonna play (*Insert non-Tendrils Combo Deck Here*) at this tournament next weekend! OH WAIT. TENDRILS. MY DECK SUCKS. I CAN'T PLAY IT NOW!"? Like. Really?

@ KrzyMoose

Nice post. I'm glad you took the time to read the arguments carefully. I chose not to respond to your previous troll, but I'll respond to this one.

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How does Tendrils stop people from playing Ichorid? Seriously.

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In the spirit of charity, I'll rephrase the question as: How does Tendrils-combo make it so we see less Ichorid?

Tendrils is simply faster than Ichorid, which means that Ichorid often loses the goldfish race, which is a race it was expecting to win against most of the format. Tendrils keeps Ichorid in check like it keeps lots of slower combo decks in check. You want be to faster combo deck in those matchups. That doesn't mean there isn't a reason to play Ichorid, it just means that Tendrils speed poses a barrier to Ichorid.

Additionally, I'd argue there is a limited number of players in Legacy, and an even smaller number with the desire to play combo. It could easily be the case that combo pilot populations cannibalize each other to some extent, as there are only so many people with cards, skill, and will to play combo. Some people who are currently playing the combo role provided by Tendrils would eventually start playing Ichorid in the event that Tendrils was banned. Without banning Tendrils, many would-be Ichorid players continue to play Storm.

It seems very reasonable that Ichorid would be played more if Tendrils were banned.

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What "general metagame"? Where are you getting this data from that shows a dominance of Tendrils decks?

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General Metagame means the universal one. It is the metagame which the DTBF attempts to display.

Point where I said Tendrils was a dominant deck. You are putting words into my mouth, and you've clearly missed the argument at large.

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If you look at the the March + April data, you know how many Tendrils decks Top 8'ed? Out of 34 tournaments, so, a possible 272 top 8 slots, Tendrils decks top 8'ed.......EIGHT times. That's THREE FREAKING PERCENT. *

May? SIX. Out of 33 tournaments. That's TWO POINT THREE FREAKING PERCENT.*

So, you guys are really saying that a deck that top 8s roughly 2.5 percent of the time is warping the metagame? Is pushing all other combo decks out of existence?

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All caps convinces me.

Here is where lack of reading and logic has led you to a fatal mistake. A deck doesn't need to constantly Top 8 at tournaments to have an effect on the metagame. I've said Tendrils influences the metagame, and that it keeps many archetypes in check, but I didn't say it was dominant by any stretch. I said it teetered on DTW status like Ichorid, and that the dominant deck in the format was Thresh. Tendrils does obsolete a bunch of combo decks (I'll give you some examples if you ask nicely), but I've hardly said that it 'pushes all other combo decks out of existence'. You would know that if you had read carefully.

Feel free to re-read my explanation of Tendril's influence. If that is TL;DR for you (which it just might be, given your posts), then let me break this particular metagame cycle down for you as simply (perhaps oversimply) as I can: Increases in the numbers of Threshold-predators are kept in check through Tendrils, and Tendrils is likewise kept in check by Thresh. The result is that Tendrils and Thresh-predators are tier 1.5 (or worse) decks, while Thresh remains clearly at the top. Without Tendrils, I think the metagame would shift in such a way that would be detrimental to Threshold. That doesn't mean Thresh would die (so don't overreact), it just wouldn't be the absolute top dog when its predators are no longer kept in check. My end argument is that keeping Thresh as the cornerstone makes the format more interesting than a tripod created by emerging dedicated-role decks, so I'm in favor of keeping Tendrils in the format.





peace,
4eak

I agree with the above. I'm absolutely positive that, given the decks being ran in the metagame today, Tendrills Combo will almost always be one of the best, if not the best choice. IF played correctly, it has a positive matchup against literally anything without Counterbalance, and it can certainly win against decks with it. Combo is important in the meta, and everyone running some form of aggro, or even control in some cases, has to be aware that they might be knocked out of competition by one of the Tendrils Combo in the field.

I wasn't directing that entire reply at you...I think I only actually quoted you once.

Rather, I was responding to everyone else who was saying that Tendrils is too dominant and keeping other combo decks from being viable.

Anyway

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Tendrils is simply faster than Ichorid, which means that Ichorid often loses the goldfish race, which is a race it was expecting to win against most of the format. Tendrils keeps Ichorid in check like it keeps lots of slower combo decks in check. You want be to faster combo deck in those matchups. That doesn't mean there isn't a reason to play Ichorid, it just means that Tendrils speed poses a barrier to Ichorid.

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Tendrils is faster than Ichorid. Okay. So? How is that a problem for the "metagame"? Prove that Tendrils' existence hinders Ichorid's ability to perform. Prove that people who want to play Ichorid will not play Ichorid because of Tendrils.

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It could easily be the case that combo pilot populations cannibalize each other to some extent, as there are only so many people with cards, skill, and will to play combo.

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Again, I ask you to prove this. How are you drawing this conclusion?

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It seems very reasonable that Ichorid would be played more if Tendrils were banned.

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Why? You're not answering this question. If someone wants to play Ichorid at a Legacy tournament this weekend, he will play Ichorid at that tournament. At the store I play at, which holds Legacy every Wednesday night (and has decent turnouts - upwards of 20 people), there is someone who usually always plays Tendrils. There is also someone who usually always plays Ichorid. Shit, there's also someone who always plays Death and Taxes. People play what they want to play.

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General Metagame means the universal one. It is the metagame which the DTBF attempts to display.

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I'd argue that there is no such thing. Standard? Definitely has a metagame. Extended during the PTQ season? Definitely has a metagame. Legacy? A format which has only sporadic tournaments, the majority of which are not in the United States? For which people* don't actually test**? For which people play whatever deck they want? Not much of a metagame.

*I think people on this site drastically overestimate how much time people not on this site spend on this format.

**I also think that people on this site who are going to claim they playtest extensively 1. Don't do proper playtesting at all and 2. Don't do nearly enough of it. Also, people not on this site do barely any at all.

Legacy, outside of this site (which constitutes the vast majority of Legacy players), doesn't consist of much more than people playing decks they feel like playing on a given weekend.

Also, while it wasn't you (4eak), specifically, who said it was dominant, there certainly were other people who did.

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A deck doesn't need constantly Top 8 at tournaments to have an affects on the metagame

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Then how does a have an influence on the "metagame"? If a deck doesn't perform consistently well, and doesn't take advantage of the "metagame" in someway (and, thus, performing well), then I'd argue that it's a pretty awful deck.

Also, people have to actually play the deck for it to affect the "metagame". If no one actually plays the deck, why should I care about it? Furthermore, if people actually play the deck, but no one does well with it, why should I care about it?

You (both 4eak and other people) keep saying that Tendrils prevents other combo decks from succeeding. But, what you don't say is "how": How does Tendrils existence push other combo decks out of existence?

Show me the data that says 100% of people who would play non-Tendrils Combo decks refrain from doing so because Tendrils exists.

*edit*

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I'm absolutely positive that, given the decks being ran in the metagame today, Tendrills Combo will almost always be one of the best, if not the best choice.

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And, yet, results from the past three months (and, I'd bet, going back further than that) disagree with this.

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Combo is important in the meta, and everyone running some form of aggro, or even control in some cases, has to be aware that they might be knocked out of competition by one of the Tendrils Combo in the field.

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So...just because Tendrils is a deck means that I shouldn't play any sort of aggro deck? You do realize that, you know, people have to actually PLAY the Tendrils decks, right?

Zoo-type decks have had much more success in the past three months than Tendrils. So, shouldn't all other aggro decks become obsolete?

Jesus Pogo-Stick-Riding Christ. For the last time;

The argument is not that Tendrils combo is dominant. The argument is that blue-CounterTop decks are dominant, which is pretty hard to dispute. The argument is further that aside from the obvious reasons for their ascendance in terms of what they actually play (Goyf, Counter-Top), another factor is a metagame presence that makes decks that might hose NLU weak, namely Tendrils combo.

You may disagree with that argument, but then disagree with it and not with one that no one fucking made.

@ KrzyMoose

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I wasn't directing that entire reply at you...I think I only actually quoted you once.

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3 times actually. Only 3 sentences of your post (before the edit) were not in response to a quote of one of my posts.

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Tendrils is faster than Ichorid. Okay. So? How is that a problem for the "metagame"?

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Ah ah, be careful. I said Tendrils speed was a problem for Ichorid, and I've repeatedly explained that is actually a good thing for the metagame.

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Again, I ask you to prove this. How are you drawing this conclusion?

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You never really asked me to prove this statement before because this is the first time I've explained this particular claim.

I'm not sure why it is so difficult to understand. Even if everyone on the planet played Magic, there would still be some limit to the number of players, and only portion a of those players would actually be playing any form of combo. It isn't unreasonable to consider the similarities between combo decks and see that many of the players of one combo deck would be willing to play different one. Additionally, magic costs money, and not everyone owns the cards to play combo, and even for those who do have the cards, not all of them would want to play combo either.

The cannabilizing concern should be obvious as well, especially since we are discussing decks with such similar roles. Can you not also see that UGb/UGw/UGr/etc. Thresh populations often cannabilized each other? Many people switched up their colors, and essentially, the population of one splash cannibalized another. Etc.

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If someone wants to play Ichorid at a Legacy tournament this weekend, he will play Ichorid at that tournament.

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Again, this is not true. You don't always get what you want. But, more importantly, your statement fails to take into account that having the option to play Tendrils affects how many would choose to play Ichorid. The question is not "could they play Ichorid?", it is really "would they play Ichorid?".

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A format which has only sporadic tournaments, the majority of which are not in the United States? For which people* don't actually test**? For which people play whatever deck they want? Not much of a metagame.

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Despite the differences between formats, you are still describing the factors which go into creating the general Legacy metagame. It exists, even if it isn't as clear as you prefer. You continue to allude to a Legacy metagame, even if you say that you don't think it exists.

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If no one actually plays the deck, why should I care about it? Furthermore, if people actually play the deck, but no one does well with it, why should I care about it?.

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Tendrils teeters on DTW. Go look at the past year instead of just the past month or two. You should certainly care about the deck. Again, it is a non sequitur to say that only decks which consistently top 8 have influence on the general metagame. For example, Dragon Stompy is a deck many should test against and think about, even if it isn't always top 8ing or played en masse. Likewise, Tendrils is one of many decks which have influence on the metagame, even if they aren't the tier 1 decks. Remember, tier 1 decks have that title because they answer and/or defeat the decks below them, and those decks therefore have influence on the metagame. Some have more than others, even if they aren't represented in most top 8's.

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how me the data that says 0% of people play non-Tendrils Combo decks because Tendrils exists.

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Again, this is not what I've said. You ask for proof about a claim that I am not making.

I've clearly explained there are other combo decks which exist. They simply aren't as influential in the metagame because of Tendrils, both through cannabilization and by being outclassed when those decks are pitted against Tendrils.

There are decks which basically have died because Tendrils is just better. One example: Gamekeeper decks have pretty much died out because Tendrils is just much, much better. Even Solidarity has a hard time remaining viable given Tendrils/AdN's existence.






peace,
4eak

I agree that this thread is just as bad as the people bawing about Tarmogoyf. Tendrils of Agony is fine.

The storm decks designed to fight permission were Mind's Desire decks, which played a bunch of rituals into a Desire, instead of the all-in strategy that Legacy storm decks must rely on due to the (rightful) banning of Desire. If banning Desire isn't good enough for you guys, I don't know what is.

As it is, Legacy is a nightmare for combo players, who wade through disruption in every matchup against every deck in the format, with the exception of Zoo, Goblins, and various metagame-dependent Aggro decks that eat Legacy Blue for breakfast. And this disruption is not only good against combo, either. Look at this list, fairly representative of the MD of Eva Green:

5 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Tombstalker
4 Hypnotic Specter

4 Snuff Out
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Seal of Primordium/Krosan Grip

None of these MD cards seem particularly directed towards fighting Tendrils. But look at the problems they pose to the deck: Hymn to Tourach takes away the deck's ever-valuable cards in hand, and Thoughtseize has even more precision. Dark Ritual powers these cards out very quickly. This deck has one of the fastest clocks in the format in Tombstalker, Tarmogoyf, and Nantuko shade. And Wasteland and Sinkhole just pack on the beatings, not as impressive against storm but still disruption nonetheless.

Frankly, Legacy is a lot better than when it was all about Landstill, Goblins, Thresh, and Solidarity.

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Originally Posted by gamegeek2

I agree that this thread is just as bad as the people bawing about Tarmogoyf. Tendrils of Agony is fine.

The storm decks designed to fight permission were Mind's Desire decks, which played a bunch of rituals into a Desire, instead of the all-in strategy that Legacy storm decks must rely on due to the (rightful) banning of Desire. If banning Desire isn't good enough for you guys, I don't know what is.

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Desire was never Legacy legal. Literally never. Thanks for having no idea what you're talking about though.

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As it is, Legacy is a nightmare for combo players, who wade through disruption in every matchup against every deck in the format, with the exception of Zoo, Goblins, and various metagame-dependent Aggro decks that eat Legacy Blue for breakfast.

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Thanks for not reading the thread. It really contributed to making your post insightful, useful, and not a waste of yours and everyone else's time. You shouldn't feel deeply ashamed right now for being such a wasted travesty of a human being. Also, Milli Vanilli are like the best band ever and will never get old MV4L wut.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

Jesus Pogo-Stick-Riding Christ. For the last time;

The argument is not that Tendrils combo is dominant. The argument is that blue-CounterTop decks are dominant, which is pretty hard to dispute. The argument is further that aside from the obvious reasons for their ascendance in terms of what they actually play (Goyf, Counter-Top), another factor is a metagame presence that makes decks that might hose NLU weak, namely Tendrils combo.

You may disagree with that argument, but then disagree with it and not with one that no one fucking made.

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What decks aren't seeing play because of Tendrils? Sure it beats Train Wreck, Truffle Shuffle, etc, but Tendrils is such a small percentage of the field. These decks that could crush blue should still be doing well.

I don't think you're getting a full appreciation for the numbers. Very few decks crush any other competitive deck with the regularity that Tendrils decks crush most non-blue decks, at least G1. And then you're relying on winning both post-board games, which is a big gamble. Comparatively, a deck that "crushes" Threshold and similar decks such as Train Wreck may only have about a 60% chance of winning the round, assuming players of equal skill, while Tendrils will have closer to an 80% chance of winning a round against Train Wreck. Goblins, depending on the build, can be in an even worse position. And most other decks that would prey on Threshold fall into this same role.

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Originally Posted by 4eak

I've clearly explained there are other combo decks which exist. They simply aren't as influential in the metagame because of Tendrils, both through cannabilization and by being outclassed when those decks are pitted against Tendrils.

There are decks which basically have died because Tendrils is just better. One example: Gamekeeper decks have pretty much died out because Tendrils is just much, much better. Even Solidarity has a hard time remaining viable given Tendrils/AdN's existence.

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So, a combo deck that is barely played at all is keeping other combo decks from being played?

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Originally Posted by 4eak

The question is not "could they play Ichorid?", it is really "would they play Ichorid?".

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Absolutely yes! People absolutely play Ichorid/Painter-Grindstone/Belcher/Breakfast/Gamekeeper.

Again, you keep saying that since Tendrils is just better (which I agree with), no person any where plays any other kind of combo deck. This is absolutely false.

The purpose of IBA's argument is basically this:

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Originally Posted by IBA

I do think the other type of combo is healther for the format

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And what no one seems to be answering is how Tendrils prevents people from playing other combo decks.

The argument that Counter-Top strategies are dominant mainly because of Tendrils is just silly - no one, I mean like, literally, no one plays Tendrils. Everyone in this thread acknowledges the fact that Tendrils is enormously underplayed. And yet, Counter-Top is still the dominant strategy.

Like I said, even without Tendrils, I'm not going to play a deck without four Counterbalance and four Top.

As much as Tendrils has problems with Blue, other combo decks have the same problems or greater, plus a vulnerability to various cards like StP, Tormod's Crypt, Krosan Grip, Deed, etc.

And I don't think anyone said the sole reason that blue was dominant was Tendrils. I think it's a factor. Blue's been overly dominant not since Tendrils was printed, but since Goyf was printed. Prior to that there was much more color diversity in the format. I think Tendrils is only the final nail in the coffin as it were- not only do you have to struggle to beat Counter-Top and Goyf, but on top of that, you can then run into Tendrils and get demolished if you're playing a midrange or board control deck designed to feed on Counter-Goyf.

Honestly, I guess I just consider the fact that Goyf needs to be banned so obvious at this point that I think it goes without saying. It is hard to think of a format where a card was so visibly dominant and didn't get banned.

I see no reason that any cards need to be banned right now. There are no decks that are so dominant in the format that you need to either play it or play hate against it.
There are decks that have bad match ups versus some decks in game 1. It happens. That is why there is a sideboard. If your deck is bad versus Tendrils then you need to plan a sideboard against it and try to swing the match up. If it is still a bad match up then oh well. Some decks just don't beat others. It happens.
Banning cards is not the answer to make the format more interesting. Printing cards that are actually good in Legacy and improving the card base will make the format more interesting. It's like taxing rich people more to make them poorer to make the poor people feel better because there are less rich people.

I play combo almost every week at my local tournaments and I will tell you that gamegeek2 is pretty much right on. If you are playing a deck like Doomsday FT you can easily lose to Goblins with turn 1 Lackey turn 2 Wasteland/Port. Oftentimes with TES you will open a beautiful hand with 1 action spell and Thoughtseize takes care of that and the rest of the game you are in topdeck mode, and assuming the opponent actually puts pressure on you, you will lose unless you draw something relevant.

I really don't think blue is a factor in limiting combo. I think playskill, thinking, and patience limit combo players because most people don't want to sit in their chair for a minute or so calculating mana in their heads and adding storm. I think Ad Nauseam has boosted the amount of combo players because it is the easiest storm engine to play ever, anyone can win a game with little thought when half their deck is in hand. I personally don't mind the Thresh CB matchup, I would MUCH rather play against some deck like UGr Thrash (easiest of the Thresh variants) than Stax or Dragon Stompy. Moon effects fuck up combo good (aside from TES who just Wishes for EtW and wins) and you simply can't win with Trinisphere in play.

Personally, I think U/B/g/w ANT and 5c DDFT are the best decks in the format since they are able to deal with anything and have a really good blue matchup. But combo is not "unfair" to answer what most people are saying. a single Chalice will often win games just because combo can't find an answer soon enough. Oftentimes combo mulls into slower hands and aggro just kills them on turn 4 and 5 since they can't setup fast enough. Discard, land disruption, well timed Stifle (on land, Mox) etc. All of these can mess up combo very well and if the combo player isn't drawing well, that is a loss. Then again, sometimes you open up a hand that looks like: LED, LED, IT, Petal, Dark Ritual, land, Brainstorm ... GG. But that is the tradeoff, combo CAN be broken but is it really any more broken than resolving CB and Top? And people are arguing that combo has no interaction ..... CB does???