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It's pretty bad in the absence of Exploration. You sacrifice a land to Knight to go get it, then you have to sacrifice a land when it comes into play, then you're either killing yourself to keep it around or letting it go to the graveyard, and then getting it back with Loam, using your land drop on it, and sacrificing another land.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
It's pretty bad in decks that can't get around that at all.
I'll definitely test the Firespout main in place of the Dreams. With Firespout main, Dreams in the Wishboard, is there any reason to keep Explosives? Wouldn't Maelstrom pulse be as good or better for getting rid of artifacts/enchantments? Actually I don't think I even have any more space for Explosives. I might just be taking them out :/.
For Glacial Chasm, we can only recur it with Loam. And even then, we lose a land every turn. Also, that's one less mana-producing land and I'd rather not go under 20. Maybe it could work- some testing is in order.
Unfortunately, finals are next week so I won't be able to playtest much :(.
EE is useful as a way to get around Counterbalance and as an additional answer to problem permanents. It's redundant in most cases with Pulse, but redundancy is one of the core principles of modern Aggro Loam, so it may not be a bad thing. I'll agree that it can be lackluster at times, but then again, so is Pulse (pretty rough using it to take out a Goyf, for example). EE also costs zero for Bob, which helps reduce the average amount of life loss suffered.Quote:
Originally Posted by supachai
The issue is that it also prevents you from attacking while eating up all your lands, so it's not like you can use it to cover for counterattacks while rumbling in with large guys. If your intention is to buy time, it's pretty bad because you're losing mana production to it while not really answering what the opponent is doing/has done. You could try to Assault the other guy to death, but that becomes increasingly difficult the longer you have to mess around with Chasm - unless, of course, you want to pay the upkeep. But that can't always be done.Quote:
Originally Posted by supachai
EDIT: On the other hand, you could retool the deck to be more like a Lands/Aggro Loam hybrid by running Exploration and ~30 lands or so. This is an interesting option, but you're trading one of Lands' strengths (difficult to interact with) for a better clock - but in a format as adept at answering creatures as Legacy is, it's not clear to me that it's worth it to make that trade. I can maybe throw a sample list together later if people want, though.
Well it doesn't necessarily prevent you from attacking. Just sac it during your upkeep (by not paying the 2 life), swing with your dudes during combat, and then Loam + play it during your second main. It still feels like a pain though. If your opponent has Progenitus out, it's not like you really want to be attacking into that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
Loam/Lands hybrid would indeed be interesting. I think Confidant should be dropped in favor of an Intuition package. Crusher could be kept as a beater and a faster way to find the Loam to get an engine going. Knight can fetch out a one-of Tabernacle or Chasm. The manabase would need some retooling, probably adding Maze of Ith, and the aforementioned Tabernacle and Chasm, along with Rishadan Ports. Chalice and rest of removal package should be dropped, except maybe a lone explosives. I don't know too much about the Lands deck, but here's a list I quickly threw together:
4 Countryside Crusher
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Intuition
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Wasteland
3 Rishdan Port
4 Maze of Ith
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
2 Taiga
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Isalnd
1 Tundra
1 Savannah
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Forgotten Cave
1 Forest
1 Island
Manabase feels VERY shaky. The list just looks like it can't really do what Aggro Loam does well and can't really do what Lands does well. Without Chalice, our fatties are prone to removal. Without enough lands, we can't abuse things like manabond. I really don't think its worth it, but maybe there's a build out there that will prove me wrong. Looking forward to seeing your list Aggro_Zombies.
Does this deck have any reasonable answer to Hexmage Depths besides Wasteland? I just can't get to winning a Depths deck, no matter what.
If you splash white you have StP... If you run Burning Wish you have access to Chainer's Edict which works occasionally.
Most hexmage decks have their removal costing 2. Land a big beater and a chalice at 2, hopefully keeping a terravore or knight on top of your library with top, in case they have an out+discard?
An active Knight of the Reliquary can also search out a Wasteland in response to him triggering Dark Depths.Quote:
Originally Posted by nodahero
I have been playing a 4c build with wish of this deck for months now but I'm having a hard time beating dream halls and zoo?
Any good side boards against this deck? Or against aggro or combo build in general?
I’m planning of adding kitchen finks against aggro match up. In my testing fire spout is just not enough to stop zoo or goblins.
I took out Armageddon and hull breach to have room for gaddock teeg just to add enough hate against combo.
My SB currently looks like this.
1pc Life from the loam
1pc Devastating dreams
2pcs Fire spout
1pc reverent silence
1pc perish
4pcs leyline of the void
1pc worms harvest
1pc shattering spree
1pc maelstrom pulse
2pcs gaddock teeg
Wasteland keeps Zoo's guys small. Firespout kills all of their creatures, except one. Lightning Bolt or Swords to Plowshares gives you time to play fatties against them. If you go with the L.B./Swords plan, then it is gernally a good idea to cut Chalice of the Void from the deck, which is also Aggro Loam's best card against combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by blue_mage
I played Aggro Loam in a MTGO Daily Event on 5/06/10 going 4-0.
I ran into the following decks: (I didn't take notes on SBing, so these are guesses as to what I did - I literally built the SB 5 minutes before the tourney and haven't played the deck in over 4 months)
Round 1: Reanimtor (2-0)
SB:
+4 Leyline of the Void
-2 Devastating Dreams -2 EE
Round 2: CB-Top Thopters (2-0)
SB:
+2 Seismic Assault +3 Krosan Grip
-1 Countryside Crusher -1 Devastating Dreams -2 Maelstrom Pulse -1 KotR
Round 3: 4c Deed-still (2-0)
SB:
+3 Seismic Assault +3 Krosan Grip +1 Eternal Witness
-1 Countryside Crusher -1 Devastating Dreams -2 EE -1 KotR -2 Maelstrom Pulse
Round 4: Rgb Goblins (2-1)
SB for Game 2:
-3 Dark Confidant -1 Maelstrom Pulse
+3 Firespout +1 Pernicious Deed
SB for Game 3:
-4 Chalice
+1 Dark Confidant +1 Eternal Witness +1 Maelstrom Pulse +1 Seismic Assault
I completely messed up game 2 SB and didn't realize until I started the game. This is where the lack of SB experience showed, but I managed to get control of the game at 2 life and overcome his Wort.
I also noticed a lot of decks just scoop to Chalice @1, which is refreshing since I hate playing the long game vs blue decks with Jace, the Mindsculptor. Also, I like Seismic Assault better in the sideboard as it is a very mana intense card, and not that great against aggro decks. It's a good transformation when your opponents bring in creature hate and you side out a few dorks for the Seismic plan. In those matches, you have time to reach the late game to allow S.Assault to become inevitable. Also, even with the prevalence of g/y strategies - I did not run into any graveyard hate.
One last note: there was not a single Dredge deck in the tournament due to the card being banned online for game rules reasons. This may contribute to why there was a lack of yard hate, and made my matches a bit easier.
Congrats. What dredge card is banned online?
I'll agree that Assault is probably not strong enough in the main anymore. How did you like Dreams? That also seems like a weak card, and you sided some of them out against blue quite often.
@supa: I wasn't able to come up with a list I liked, sorry. The issue seems to be that Lands and Aggro Loam are the most stable designs in their respective niches, and combining them leads to a lot of situations where you end up with something that makes you go, "But wouldn't this just be better as Lands/Aggro Loam?"
I'd like to know exactly what aggro decks you are talking about since I haven't basically lost a game against Zoo, Merfolk or Goblins when I have resolved Seismic Assault early on or later in the game. :)Quote:
Also, I like Seismic Assault better in the sideboard as it is a very mana intense card, and not that great against aggro decks.
-kortero
@ AZ - Bridge from Below is banned since the 2nd ability doesn't actually exile them, hence making them unstopable thru creature sacs.
I really like DD against aggro, which I was expecting much of (Goblins, DnT, Bant). It just completely takes away any chance they have. Especially after throwing down a beater. I think I cast DD@2 multiple times this tourney. It's the best card vs tribal.
I don't like DD against decks running FoW generally, but they do buy so much tempo when you get them off. Mostly, its the issue of discarding your hand that I board them out as ineffective.
Against Reanimator - they don't do anything but destroy land - hence dead card (Wasteland does this too without slowing you down). My opponent scooped to Leyline on turn 2, and I don't think he was expecting Leylines. He seemed unprepared for hate.
Against CB-top much the same, but luckily I didn't have to face an active Counterbalance. Lucky me. I usually scoop vs active CB-top. I was able to get Wasteland recursion via Loam to prevent Jace/Humility/Moat/Deed from coming online then finally cast a threat.
My strategy against blue decks: board out DD, Crusher(s), and some removal for Witness, Seismic Assault, and Grips when appropriate. I find that late game I rely on Volrath's Stronghold recursion to setup good board states, and Witness gives me access to any card in the yard. Seismic Assault negates their creature hate, and Grips remove Relics/CB/Tops/Moat/etc.
It seems like the tourney's meta wasn't ready for Aggro Loam this tournament, as another Aggro Loam variant running the older Wish lists also made 3-1. (link to tourney in previous post).
Against these decks, I'd rather get a big guy out, then go for DD to seal the game up. Seismic Assault usually sits in my hand being uncastable both due to it's restrictive cost, and opponent's Wastelands nailing my red sources. In this respect, Goyfs and KotR are easier to cast. I did lose G1 to Goblins because he wasted my only 2nd red source with DD in hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by kortero
No probs. I don't think its the direction we should be taking this deck anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
I agree on the Dreams. A couple maindeck is always worth with it, despite running into blue deck. It just kills all the other aggro decks.
Does anyone find the Merfolk matchup surprisingly difficult? They can just really quickly drop a ton of lords before I get to stabilize. Aether Vial is also very annoying when I want to wipe the board with a Dreams. And not to mention Force of Will. Is there anything we can put in the maindeck to help this?
Just checked the decklist you had. It was nice to see that it was almost the same decklist that I have played for couple of months. MD Differences are -3 Seismic -1 Sejiri Steppe +3 DD +1 Bojuka Bog. Anyway, differences are quite marginal and I'm satisfied that this kind of build has worked for someone else too.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
Tomorrow is my turn to try out the deck in a legacy tournament. I'm trying a new card in the SB which is Tariff. Anyway, SB will look like this:
1 Tariff
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
4 Firespout
1 Perish
4 Leyline of the Void
-kortero
What do yall think about living wish and Llawan Cephalid Empress for Merfolk in a wishboard (im playing two colors and splashing one or two blue duls would be easy)?
This can be the case, yes. I've found that having Firespout in the main and playing much more defensively tends to help. You want to play out as many guys as possible and kill Rejeerey on sight if you can. It's actually a pretty rough matchup if you don't get good hands.Quote:
Originally Posted by supachai
That's pretty bad. I don't think the deck should be splashing blue anyway, as the only worthwhile thing you get is Academy Ruins for recurring EE and maybe Intuition. While those are good, they're far too slow for the modern Legacy meta. You're also sacrificing your ability to block against Merfolk in the meantime, making an already poor matchup into a solidly bad one. Splash aside, though, Llawan is good in the Merfolk mirror because it's an uncounterable Wrath thanks to Vial; we'd be better off running Boseiju and thereby having actual uncounterable Wraths.Quote:
Originally Posted by technogeek5000
Besides, there's virtually nothing worth getting with Living Wish (for this deck). Knight of the Reliquary can enable a land toolbox in the main, and there aren't a lot of utility creatures worth running in a wishboard.
Burning Wish > Living Wish for Aggro Loam. And Burning Wish is now too slow.
@Aggro_Zombies - Have you given up NOPro in Aggro Loam? Haven't seen/talked to you in a while. I'm curious about your most recent list. I'm gonna try to get back into playing tournaments in the summer and I may be picking up Aggro Loam :D