[Deck] The Gate

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Originally Posted by Hawdes

Instead of changing the manabase and open yourself up to non-basic hate, you could aswell run Sword of Light and Shadow. It recurrs creatures from your yard aswell and netting you some life at the time. I think that equipping a BB token with the sword seems good enough, although this requires more mana (1 more mana to play and the added equipcost), but it gives you so much more for the mana investment.
Since the deck already runs x Jittes, you could easily replace one, or just add 1 SoLS in the mix. Equipping Vampire Nighthawk with this is good I've heard, even races some monsters like Progenitus.
It's just a thought, there's no testing behind this statement. It might be all wrong. But it's a way better "recurr" effect than Volrath's Stronghold imo.

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Progenitus is the absolute least of your worries with Gatekeeper and Innocent Blood. Umezawa's Jitte give you the ability to gain life, power your creatures, and kill other creatures. Sword of Light and Shadow costs one more and is only effective the moment it hits an opponent. Jitte's ability can be used anytime, which is critical. You could not *easily* replace Jitte; it is far superior.

I've also been testing Nether Void in the combo match and it has generally been an auto-win in every circumstance (this against ANT and Solidarity). The main-deck and sideboard both are being tweaked; I'll have a list up later.

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How do you figure that Dark Ritual is a first turn source of that doesn't require a land?

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I don't. I just don't iterate my thoughts too well at 3 in the morning. What I meant to say was that the manabase, as I'm currently running it, has only 15 ways (basic swamps) to generate B on turn one without having a land in play. Sorry for the confusion.

As for Stronghold as a 1-of, meh. I'm hesitant on 1-ofs in this deck, unless they're somewhat redundant. Skeletal Scrying, for example, I run as a 1-of, because it's my 5th source of card advantage after 4 Bobs. I will try cutting the Rituals for basic swamps and see how it feels. If I were going to run Wasteland and Stronghold, I guess I'd cut Scrying and run 1x Stronghold as the 23rd land. (I wouldn't do this. Scrying is great.)

I, too, have toyed with the idea of a sword in the deck. There's some logic behind it, especially SoFI. SoFI on Nighthawk is hot sauce, killing creatures, gaining life, drawing cards, making sweet love to your opponent's face, etc... However, I have tested a little bit, and it feels win-more. I want cards that will take me through to the midgame, not cards that will make me even more of a threat when I get there. Not that SoFI's all bad, I just prefer Scrying in the last open slot in the build. SoLS I tested a bit, as well, and I just wasn't getting the use out that I was out of SoFI. Remember that not all of our duders fly, and we can't always count on getting a non-flyer through for the dmg.

@ Hollywood
Without Ritual, how do you stall long enough to get Nether Void into play vs. combo? The combo match I most worry about is the Doomsday build of storm combo. They can go off from surprisingly low life, and kill us even with quite a bit of life. (I lost a match the other day where I had Nighthawk on the board, and life totals were 26 to 8, I believe.) Granted, in that match, I would have had time to land a Nether Void ftw, but I don't count on making it several turns in w/o a lucky Therapy nailing a few key cards in their hand, as happened that time. Not much of a gameplan, obviously. The player suggested Mindbreak Trap to me, as I didn't see a Pact in his build. Fair enough. On the other hand, Trap is a reactive card, and can thus be Duressed/Thoughtseized away before they go off. And a smart combo player will do such.

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Originally Posted by Chubu!

@ Hollywood
Without Ritual, how do you stall long enough to get Nether Void into play vs. combo? The combo match I most worry about is the Doomsday build of storm combo. They can go off from surprisingly low life, and kill us even with quite a bit of life. (I lost a match the other day where I had Nighthawk on the board, and life totals were 26 to 8, I believe.) Granted, in that match, I would have had time to land a Nether Void ftw, but I don't count on making it several turns in w/o a lucky Therapy nailing a few key cards in their hand, as happened that time. Not much of a gameplan, obviously. The player suggested Mindbreak Trap to me, as I didn't see a Pact in his build. Fair enough. On the other hand, Trap is a reactive card, and can thus be Duressed/Thoughtseized away before they go off. And a smart combo player will do such.

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You run Cabal Therapy and Duress. Game two, considering you're on the play, you also run Hymn to Tourach. You bury their hand and drop a Void. That's how you do it.

Nether Void? Cool idea... but damn, so much for "budget-friendly"! Do you think Sphere of Resistance/ Thorn of Amethyst might be decent alternatives for those of us clutching our wallets these days?

In general, this deck runs more lands to get around Nether Void, which is almost complete destruction against ANT if it resolves. The point is, decks like these in general have a disadvantage against combo for the inherent lack of counter-magic. That's okay though, because we run black; a color dead-set on destroying players' hands. It really is one of the best cards you can use against ANT and Storm combo in general.

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You run Cabal Therapy and Duress. Game two, considering you're on the play, you also run Hymn to Tourach. You bury their hand and drop a Void. That's how you do it.

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Do you also board in Hymn against control?

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

In general, this deck runs more lands to get around Nether Void, which is almost complete destruction against ANT if it resolves. The point is, decks like these in general have a disadvantage against combo for the inherent lack of counter-magic. That's okay though, because we run black; a color dead-set on destroying players' hands. It really is one of the best cards you can use against ANT and Storm combo in general.

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Is Nether Void really that good against ANT? It hits play on turn 5-6. Also I would imagine ANT could tutor for Chain of Vapor or other bounce once they have 4 mana, then bounce back Nether Void and combo out.

IMHO if combo has a strong presence in your metagame, then more disruption, Dark Ritual and SB Sadistic Sacrament might be necessary. It is true that Dark Ritual is card disadvantage, but it does allow you to power out Bob or Bitterblossom turn 1,which is a very strong play, and makes you gain card advantage faster.

This might be a jank-ass suggestion, but would Dash Hopes be any good in the combo match-ups? It seems decent against ANT at least, since you can use it aggressively to make them more likely to whiff on Ad Nauseam.

I'm not so sure about Dash Hopes, but it seems like if there ever was a deck that card might be good in, this is probably it. I'd be curious to hear y'all's evaluations.

EDIT: In retrospect: This probably is a jank-ass suggestion. But it does bear mentioning that Dash Hopes fulfills a very comparable function to Soul Spike against combo. It doesn't work as creature removal in other match-ups, but Soul Spike is such shitty creature removal that I think this is a negligible downside. Also, Dash Hopes plays better with Dark Confidant and causes you less card disadvantage. The downside of Dash Hopes is that it's worse against opposing Orim's Chant and Thoughtseize, because if you use it to counter their protection spell, they will likely just let it get countered and hold onto their 5 life.

I think that Dash Hopes is comparable enough to Soul Spike to at least bear mentioning though. I feel like there are pro's and con's to either one.

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Originally Posted by makochman

Is Nether Void really that good against ANT? It hits play on turn 5-6. Also I would imagine ANT could tutor for Chain of Vapor or other bounce once they have 4 mana, then bounce back Nether Void and combo out.

IMHO if combo has a strong presence in your metagame, then more disruption, Dark Ritual and SB Sadistic Sacrament might be necessary. It is true that Dark Ritual is card disadvantage, but it does allow you to power out Bob or Bitterblossom turn 1,which is a very strong play, and makes you gain card advantage faster.

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The points you bring up have already been addressed by other people in previous posts and we've already been over (most of) this.

Nether Void is that good against ANT. It hits play on turn four, and even if the ANT player Mystical Tutors for Chain of Vapor, they will have to do it in response to me playing it. Obviously they could do that, but what you are giving is a scenario for the combo player under these circumstances and ignoring the fact that their mana base is very light. With discard and Wasteland, it would be near impossible for them to recover from that card once it resolves. And even if they do that, I can still Soul Spike them out (now that Nether Void has been unprecedentedly bounced). Most ANT players give it up at four or three life, thus giving me yet another opportunity of killing them in response to an Orim's Chant with fifteen cards in their hands.

This archetype has difficulty against combo, and unlike Trinisphere, Nether Void is a crushing card once it resolves because it doesn't make everything cost at least three, it makes everything cost three more. That's the difference. It isn't that hard to get to four mana with this deck.

Dark Ritual - again - is not effective in this deck. What it does is powers out a turn one play that would open myself up for removal, Daze, etc. Then, once my hand is depleted, I get hammered and cannot recover. Dark Ritual is a good card, but it is no good in a deck that utilizes each of the first three turns in succession to:

1.) Remove threats.
2.) Discard spells.
3.) Establish threats.

This three-pronged approach is the cornerstone of this deck-building scheme. By dumping your hand turn one, you are hoping (and praying) your opponent can't subsequently answer early enough to nullify what you've done. It's just...not...worth it. I will not eat it to Spell Snare or Daze unless it is a one-for-one trade-off and not a two-for-one; that's it. If I have discard, I'll use it first. But under no circumstances am I in a hurry to dump my hand.

Here is my updated list for reference:

// Lands
16 [A] Swamp
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [WWK] Bojuka Bog

// Creatures
4 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
4 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk
3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre

// Spells
4 [US] Duress
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [CS] Deathmark
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [MOR] Bitterblossom

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [B] Nevinyrral's Disk
SB: 3 [LG] Nether Void
SB: 3 [WL] Spinning Darkness
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [IN] Tsabo's Web
SB: 2 [CS] Soul Spike

In essence, I've done more work on the sideboard than anything else. I'm looking to work the Hymn to Tourachs back in the board, but I'm in the process of shuffling them around. This is where it currently stands.

I've had absolutely zero problems with turn one Chalice or Trinisphere. I've been able to bide my time through each turn and knock off creatures with Gatekeeper or lands with Wasteland. I just got done crushing Dragon Stompy, an emphatic 2-0. I also tried against Armageddon Stax, winning 2-0.

Nether Void has been an effective, sufficient solution against combo. This is where Hymn comes back into the mix. It buys me time to get it online so I can shut an opponent down. I'm not sure how to rework the board just yet, but I'm leaning towards removing the Spikes and replacing them with potentially two Hymns to round out the discard package nicely.

I like your idea of removing the soul spikes for hymn to tourach. Soul spikes seem like such a reactive solution and it seems like although it could help you against ANT occasionally, hymn will always help you against ANT. just my two cents. You are the one testing obv.

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/4881/capturest.jpg

This was a match (against Team America) I ended up winning two games to one. The only reason I dropped game one was that I kept an inept one-lander and ended up paying for it. Games two and three were sound wins. I'm still trying to decide whether or not Bitterblossom is good enough in the aggro match. It plays well so far, and typically draws a counter early because of how fast it can get out of hand.

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Dark Ritual - again - is not effective in this deck.

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You're right. I realize now, after testing without, that the deck benefits more from the solidity of basics than the occasional explosiveness of a Dark Ritual. I played a very small (24 or so ppl) tourney tonight and came in 1st. I believe it was first, the final standings I never actually saw. My record was 4-0 matches, 8-1 games. My loss came game 1 to Kobolds combo, 'cuz I had no idea what the hell the deck even was. Needless to say, I learned quick. My match wins were (in order): Kobolds, Rats, (yes, rats.) 'Folk, and Pox. What I feel was most important to mention, though, is ZERO MULLIGANS. I highly doubt that this would have been the case were I running rituals instead of extra basics. Never doubt the solid benefits of extensive shuffling and ample lands. Nighthawk, Bob, and Cabal Therapy were MVPs. I saw Bitterblossom three times, never cast it. I'm content with it in the board.

My current list:
19 Swamp
2 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bojuka Bog

4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Faerie Macabre
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Abyssal Persecutor

4 Innocent Blood
4 Smother
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Skeletal Scrying

3 Umezawa's Jitte

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Bitterblossom
3 Soul Spike
1 Faerie Macabre

I tested a match against solidarity on mws. First game he had it ez as I had very little discard and clock isnt near quick enough. Second game I got some discard and was able to drop a nether void for the game. Third game I had two duresses and a hymn but couldn't find a nether void and my clock was too slow cuz i couldnt get to four lands for persecutor. I like nether void alot though and the discard is much more effective I bet against ANT and belcher than solidarity so I like the plan.

hollywood,sorry about today. I get disconnected. My stupid internet. If you want to hook up and test that matchup id be down. Im pretty sure its in your favor but my theory in testing has been working out well for me. Anyways ball is in your court. ttyl

So I'm not sure where this belongs, if it deserves it's own thread or not. If I do well with it maybe it's worth a different topic with a primer but right now I'll just post it in here.

It's a version of this deck that splashes white for Stoneforge Mystic. It plays with a lot of the same principles (card advantage with lots of hand/board removal and potent threats). The name is a play on the main splash card and the name of the OP deck, but I think it's ironic since the deck's namesake has no relationship to the deck at all.

Mystic Gate by Joe Stempo

22 Lands
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
8 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Wasteland

16 Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Abyssal Persecutor
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir

4 Equipment
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

18 Spells
4 Bitterblossom
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Innocent Blood
3 Duress

Sideboard
4 Disenchant
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Duress
1 Path to Exile

What do you guys think?

A couple differences between this and the mono-B deck:

Bitterblossom - MVP here. If this sticks I win 80% of the time. With 4 Mystics I can grab an equipment to stick on a Faerie token and swing, and each one is game-breaking.
Gatekeeper of Malakir - solid creature, but I'm afraid that getting a consistent BBB in one game is a little tough. This plus the lack of evasion when he hits makes him only a 2 of. I tried Serra Avenger in this slot previously but the WW ended up being a major inconvenience. I don't want to run many more 3-drops because of Bob and the fact that my mana is tight as it is, with all the equips.

Seems like Stoneforge Mystic is the new "it girl" of Legacy, she's popping up everywhere. With 8 shuffle effects, Divining Top suddenly looks worth a look to manage Confidant's lifeloss.

With cards that require triple black like Gatekeeper, you can't ideally run two colors (not to mention with Wasteland) and open yourself to Stifle, Moon, and Waste effects and hope to get that online. I just don't like white in this deck personally; I think it takes away from what the deck is really trying to do and that's evading typical, streamlined hate purposefully with basics and simple removal to render cards in an opponent's deck useless. If that is a route you want to go, by all means. Personally, I don't see a need for a white splash at all.

Right now, my sideboard has been reconfigured to fit four Hymn to Tourach. I took out the Web's as they were redundant with Relic and other graveyard removal.

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
SB: 3 [WL] Spinning Darkness
SB: 3 [B] Nevinyrral's Disk
SB: 3 [LG] Nether Void
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

This has been a major improvement in the combo matchup, which seemed to be a cavity for the deck to begin with. This "root canal" of sorts allows the deck to punish an opponent's hand, and set them up against Nether Void or Persecutor. I also just recently defeated Enchantress, two games to one with this updated sideboard (which was a relatively difficult match to begin with). That problem appears to be solved in testing.

I also should mention I played against ANT and won the match, two games to one. I ended up doing enough damage to setup Nether Void for the win. My opponent kept a one-lander with a Top, and he didn't see it coming.

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

Right now, my sideboard has been reconfigured to fit four Hymn to Tourach. I took out the Web's as they were redundant with Relic and other graveyard removal.

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
SB: 3 [WL] Spinning Darkness
SB: 3 [B] Nevinyrral's Disk
SB: 3 [LG] Nether Void
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

This has been a major improvement in the combo matchup, which seemed to be a cavity for the deck to begin with. This "root canal" of sorts allows the deck to punish an opponent's hand, and set them up against Nether Void or Persecutor. I also just recently defeated Enchantress, two games to one with this updated sideboard (which was a relatively difficult match to begin with). That problem appears to be solved in testing.

I also should mention I played against ANT and won the match, two games to one. I ended up doing enough damage to setup Nether Void for the win. My opponent kept a one-lander with a Top, and he didn't see it coming.

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So as far as the combo matchup, do you think Sadistic Sacrament would be a semi-viable alternative to Nether Void? Or should I just accept some combo losses if I can't get Voids? I'm toying with the idea of buying Persecutors and Bitterblossoms so I can make this deck, and honestly besides the fact that it seems fun to play, another thing that's attractive is that those would be all the money cards I'd have to buy to put it together. As cool as it would be to own 3 Nether Voids, I don't think I can justify the expense IRL right now.

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Originally Posted by grahf

Seems like Stoneforge Mystic is the new "it girl" of Legacy, she's popping up everywhere. With 8 shuffle effects, Divining Top suddenly looks worth a look to manage Confidant's lifeloss.

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What would you propose to take out for Top? I think I had a couple in with a slightly different build but now I wouldn't know what to remove since I'm really digging the deck as it is. My problem with Top is that it doesn't do anything on its own right away and the deck already requires a lot of mana to work.

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

With cards that require triple black like Gatekeeper, you can't ideally run two colors (not to mention with Wasteland) and open yourself to Stifle, Moon, and Waste effects and hope to get that online. I just don't like white in this deck personally; I think it takes away from what the deck is really trying to do and that's evading typical, streamlined hate purposefully with basics and simple removal to render cards in an opponent's deck useless. If that is a route you want to go, by all means. Personally, I don't see a need for a white splash at all.

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I originally didn't play Gatekeeper since he needs BBB. What do you think of Gerrard's Verdict in that spot instead? Or Tidehollow Sculler?

I think the white plays great; I admit the focus is slightly different but most of the deck plays the same. Increased vulnerability is a trade-off for being able to tutor up equipment and run the best removal spell in the format. I think the sideboard is a little more useful due to the ability to play Disenchant and Canonist. I understand how you feel though, but if you have any suggestions for me (short of dropping W of course) I would appreciate it.

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Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght

So as far as the combo matchup, do you think Sadistic Sacrament would be a semi-viable alternative to Nether Void? Or should I just accept some combo losses if I can't get Voids? I'm toying with the idea of buying Persecutors and Bitterblossoms so I can make this deck, and honestly besides the fact that it seems fun to play, another thing that's attractive is that those would be all the money cards I'd have to buy to put it together. As cool as it would be to own 3 Nether Voids, I don't think I can justify the expense IRL right now.

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I'm very interested in this question too...
What combo decks are in your meta? If there are only stock ANTs that run 1-2 Tendrils as a wincon and no backup plan, resolved Sacrament is game.
If it's TES or Belcher, than maybe you should try Trinisphere in that slot.