U/W/x CounterTop Walker

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Regardless, we need more data.

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Understood, and agreed.

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The deck list has potentinal though and I am more worried about Merfolk and Countertop Thopter than Zoo.

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Merfolk is definitely a matchup to be concerned with. It was a bad matchup for Landstill, and is a bad matchup for most CounterTop decks. I'd say that it's slightly unfavorable in game 1, and slightly favorable in games 2 and 3. That's from my experience against it so far. Hopefully, Merfolk's popularity will decrease because of Zoo's popularity.

I'm not too worried about CounterTop Thopter, but I'd definitely like to playtest that matchup more.

Actually, something like CBT(h)opter should probably be pretty high on your list of worrysome matchups (preboard when you don't have access to EE - and with the (non-existant) speed of both decks, game 1 gains a lot of importance): It is far better at setting up a fast CB-Top lock than you are (4 Tutors better, to be exact), you only have two outs to CB and, most ugly, the fact that you have constructed your own curve around CB makes it a very strong lock vs your deck. It also has Ruins-EE for the lockout, especially if they are good enough to splash an off-color fourth dual for EE, which you don't have a real answer to. The major difference to other CB decks - and the one that makes this a very different matchup from the Goyf-based ones - is that all of your creature removal is dead as that deck has an actual good wincon, meaning all your removal aside from the two Vindicate does essentially nothing.
That is not at all meant to imply that Thopter will be an auto-loss, having actual carddrawing still counts for something. But if you're worried about something with CB in it, it should probably be the one good deck running it. To draw a parallel, losing to CBTop Goyf with JaceTM is nigh impossible, the Thopter-deck is about nearly even/slighty favorable - and I have four EEs (and Ruins/TWest) and don't care much about being CB-locked against that deck because of its slow clock (but I also have no CBs of my own to lock them out, either). The good thing is that Thopter has a certain tendency to self-destruct in control on control because it's missing an actual draw-engine - as I learned the hard way running the deck (though that is strongly mitigated if the opponent is vulnerable to CB).
Having Elspeths where I have Jaces also places you at a disadvantage compared to JaceTM in this matchup, as having a Jace online for 2 turns usually translates into a win in control on control, in my experience. Elspeth should be pretty neglegible for them at least for some time, they're a lot better at making 1/1s (and Elspeth doesn't answer Jace easily in control on control).
All this to say I'd be surprised if the matchup is much different than 50:50, maybe a little worse G1 and a little better G2-3 once you get your EEs.

As for the whole debate with Anusien, I'm sure that he's right that the aggro-matchups would profit from a) splashing Firespout and b) using Wall of Omens.What I don't agree with looking at the deck is the necessity to push the aggro-matchup in that way (as for the Moat-plan, I love Moat, but losing G2/3 to Grip on a regular basis doesn't appeal to me at all. Actually when building our own version of CBThopter we SBed out both Moat and 2-3 Counterbalances against Zoo for spotremoval because we realized that in long games relying on Enchantment-based defense never ended well, as they'd invariably find a Grip after ten turns of stalling and just kill you. Going for straight removal into Thopters/Jace was far more efficient).
In general people seem, to me, to be far too focused on beating aggro when considering how to build decks ever since Mystical was banned. Wall of Omens sure is good against creatures, but against anything else it's a bad cycler. All the people building that way will fall prey to the other players running control built to beat up creatures but who actually thought about the fact that they might face another control-deck (or TES, DDay and Lands). Having less combo doesn't mean that you can just ignore everything else when building your deck.
I haven't come around to testing this deck yet myself, but if you say it fares well against aggro post-board at the latest, I'm ready to believe it seeing the (post-SB) removal-count and its ability to ignore PoP through careful fetching (I am somewhat sceptical of the whole CB-lock plan against Zoo postboard, for the reasons described in the Thopter-commentary above. The removal into Planeswalker plan otoh is sick beats against Zoo).

Finally, another land is always a good thing for control-decks, so if I saw room, I'd definitely try to push another one in - I'm a sucker for lands. For the moment I don't see anything to cut and the curve is low enough (and there are enough basics) that I consider it quite probable that 23 will prove to be sufficient. I won't give any more decided comment on this till I have actually run some games with the deck (I still think you should replace the second Scrubland, though. It seems unnecessary and having fewer non-basics/ones with a bigger upside is always good - Academy Ruins, a Fetch or basic Plains/Swamp seem like solid options. Only because the manabase did work without trouble for you so far doesn't mean that it couldn't be made even better by trying out a few tweaks, right?).

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Actually, something like CBT(h)opter should probably be pretty high on your list of worrysome matchups

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Well, maybe you're right. I've only gotten to play against it twice, and I won both times, but it's very probable that my opponent's were bad (it was MWS), and it's probable that I got lucky (2 games is too small of a sample size). That's why I said I'd like to playtest it more.

I realize that it's different than other CBT matchups like Bant (which is a good matchup), and I consider it to be a control mirror. Both of us have dead removal, albeit they have less dead removal because they silver bullet for theirs.

I guess the reason I assumed it wasn't something to be too worried about was because they run card disadvantage instead of card advantage, and that they run an easily disruptable/answerable win condition in Thopter/Sword, whereas my Planeswalker's are bombs against them. As far as I know, most Thopter lists only have one 4cc spell for their Counterbalance (Moat), although I'm sure more and more will start to play Jace as that deck evolves.

You are right though: they have the ability to assemble their CounterTop lock much easier than me because they have E Tutor, and they also have the ability to eventually get a Ruins/EE lock going.

Again, I'd rather do some more actual playtesting before commenting much more on this matchup. What I do know is, that if this matchup is problematic, and if Thopter does become popular, I could put more Vindicates and some Pithing Needles in the sideboard to address this matchup. There's always the red splash with Red Elemental Blasts, if shit hits the fan. Going 4c means I'd have EE @ 4, and I could toss in a Ruins or two for the Ruins/EE lock. However, I doubt that the matchup needs addressed that excessively, especially without hurting other matchups.

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As for the whole debate with Anusien, I'm sure that he's right that the aggro-matchups would profit from a) splashing Firespout and b) using Wall of Omens.What I don't agree with looking at the deck is the necessity to push the aggro-matchup in that way (as for the Moat-plan, I love Moat, but losing G2/3 to Grip on a regular basis doesn't appeal to me at all. Actually when building our own version of CBThopter we SBed out both Moat and 2-3 Counterbalances against Zoo for spotremoval because we realized that in long games relying on Enchantment-based defense never ended well, as they'd invariably find a Grip after ten turns of stalling and just kill you. Going for straight removal into Thopters/Jace was far more efficient).

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Splashing Firespout would be great against Goblins and Merfolk, and decent against Zoo. Wall of Omens is decent against Zoo, and bad against everything else. Both of those options are narrow and answer a specific matchup or set of matchups, making them narrow maindeck cards. Firespout makes alot more sense than Wall of Omen's, since it directly answers my worst matchups (Goblins/Merfolk), but it requires that I splash into a color that offers less against other matchups. I could go 4c, sure, but I feel like the aggro matchups are addressed adequately postboard with the current (black) splash.

What I don't understand is why people are obsessed with Firespout over Wrath of God. Yes, it's better against decks where they both have the same effect, since it costs 3 mana instead of 4. Yes, it's particularly better against those decks because they run taxing disruption like Wasteland, Rishadan Port, and Daze. However, this deck can still effectively cast Wrath of God against those decks, while not being dead against other common matchups, like Bant Aggro, New Horizons, etc. Even against Zoo, I'd rather have Wrath of God over Firespout against everything but their nuts draw (1cc creature turn 1, two 1cc creatures turn 2, relevant turn 3).

Postboard, I have the ability to board into so much removal that it becomes irrelevant what the actual removal spells are.

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In general people seem, to me, to be far too focused on beating aggro when considering how to build decks ever since Mystical was banned.

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I agree 100%.

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Wall of Omens sure is good against creatures, but against anything else it's a bad cycler.

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It's not good against Lord of Atlantis, it's not good when it turns on otherwise dead removal like Warren Wierding and Swords to Plowshares, it's not good against big creatures like 4/5 Tarmogoyfs, and it's not good against flyers like Vendilion Clique. UBg/w Landstill has been around for a while but I've never seen anyone suggest Wall of Blossom's in that thread. Tarmogoyf, yea, but a wall? Not so much. Especially not as a replacement for their draw engine (Standstill). Sure, my draw engine (Predict) isn't a namesake card in this deck like Standstill is in Landstill, but still (no pun intended). I understand that you weren't the one who suggested that I cut my draw (Predict) for the Wall of Omen's, I'm simply explaining why Wall of Omen's is bad.

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All the people building that way will fall prey to the other players running control built to beat up creatures but who actually thought about the fact that they might face another control-deck (or TES, DDay and Lands).

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Right, I think being mindful of the control mirror is important. Whether it be TES, DDay, Lands, or whatever. For combo, I feel like adding CounterTop to Landstill was a huge improvement.

Against Lands, I simply try to keep them off of going broken (Manabond and Intuition) and stick a Planeswalker ASAP. Jace is much stronger than Elspeth, but Elspeth can still push through for a win. Postboard, the Relics come in to keep them off of Loam, and the matchup gets much better. Depending on the matchup, I can also bring in EE and/or Meddling Mage to replace my dead removal spells. Overall, I'd say the matchup is slightly unfavored game 1, and it becomes slightly favorable in games 2 and 3. I don't have enough playtesting with this matchup, so my experience is very limited and my matchup results could be skewed because of this.

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I haven't come around to testing this deck yet myself, but if you say it fares well against aggro post-board at the latest, I'm ready to believe it seeing the (post-SB) removal-count and its ability to ignore PoP through careful fetching (I am somewhat sceptical of the whole CB-lock plan against Zoo postboard, for the reasons described in the Thopter-commentary above. The removal into Planeswalker plan otoh is sick beats against Zoo).

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I run 16 removal spells postboard for Zoo, and 18 removal spells postboard for Goblins/Merfolk. If that doesn't make my deck fare well against those matchups, I don't know what possibly could.

The CB lock against Zoo is amazing. If you don't wanna take my word for it, go ask Zoo players how they feel about it.

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Finally, another land is always a good thing for control-decks, so if I saw room, I'd definitely try to push another one in - I'm a sucker for lands. For the moment I don't see anything to cut and the curve is low enough (and there are enough basics) that I consider it quite probable that 23 will prove to be sufficient. I won't give any more decided comment on this till I have actually run some games with the deck (I still think you should replace the second Scrubland, though. It seems unnecessary and having fewer non-basics/ones with a bigger upside is always good - Academy Ruins, a Fetch or basic Plains/Swamp seem like solid options. Only because the manabase did work without trouble for you so far doesn't mean that it couldn't be made even better by trying out a few tweaks, right?).

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Right, I wasn't disagreeing about that. There's a difference between suggesting that adding a land could be beneficial, and straight up saying that 23 lands is too few without ever having playtested with the deck.

Another land wouldn't hurt, sure. This is a control deck that likes land drops. I've playtested with the deck alot, and between Brainstorm and Top, 23 has worked out perfectly for me. I'm not running 4 Mishra's Factories and 4 Wasteland's like UBg Landstill, for instance, and my only non-colored land is a 1-of Kor Haven. I run 6 basics, and the 4 Island/2 Plains can cast every single spell in my deck, aside from the 2 Doom Swords and 2 Vindicates. Adding a 24th land could be better than running 23, but my list is so tight that I have no idea what I'd cut, and again, I've been very happy with running 23. If I find myself running into issues with my landcount in the future, adding more land is always possible.

For right now, I feel like my manabase is incredibly stable, but you may be right, that it isn't necessarily the best it could possibly be. I've been satisfied with the 2nd Scrubland, but I'm sure that it could be an Academy Ruins, Swamp, or Plains instead. I'm content in playing with my current configuration, but those options are definitely up for debate. Perfect example: Heroicraptor has been trying a version with a basic Swamp.

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Completely unrelated, but a possible* reason to choose this deck over Thopter:

I'm not sure, but it would seem to me like Bant would give Thopter some serious headaches. I've never playtested that matchup, so I could be completely wrong, but I mean... Thopter wants to resolve a combo that is extremely disruptable to the Bant player. They have the countermagic magic package to stop it (FoW/Daze, CounterTop, Spell Snare), artifact/enchantment removal (Qasali, Grip, EE), and the clock to kill them before they do finally assemble their combo. Yea, Moat/Humility/Ensnaring Bridge could be slightly problematic against Bant, but to me, it seems like Bant has the edge in that matchup. Again, I've never actually playtested that matchup, so I could be complely wrong.

Looking at tournament results: Metagame Analysis, I'd argue that Bant is an important matchup to be favored against.

I know that my deck has a strong Bant matchup.

*Does anyone have any experience with the Thopter vs Bant matchup? If so, could you please explain.

Honestly, I only want the basic swamp versus decks with wasteland recursion or bloodmoon. Unless I have a bunch of land, I don't like drawing it. I'm gonna try an Academy Ruins in the spot. EE recursion is savage.

I have tried the deck in exactly that U/W/b version. Strong against the general majority of the field, admitted. But here some things that still annoy me.

Once again, the number of Predicts:

in Hanni's list I'd always run 4 for the sake of 12 CC2 cards. In the deck I played few weeks ago without black I could go down to 3 now because of 2 Hoofprints of the Stag, but you always have to reach 12 CC 2 at least so Predict is an auto 4of with only 4 Counterspell and 4 Counterbalance.

Wincons:

Planeswalkers are strong, resilent and do more than only serving as a kill, no discussion. But sometimes, I feel like having another option might make my live while playing this deck easier. DoJ is without no doubt too slow and does not really fit in here. And this is where I started Hoofprints of the Stag and I missed it somehow.

Vedalken Shackles:

I will just repeat myself, but everyone who has not tried them out a few times in this deck, please do it now.

Vindicate:

Strong allround choice, but still only a 1-1 trade and so far the only real big reason for me to splash black. There are decks that run more than one or two really unhealthy disrupting permanents or will drop more copies of these.
I have to admit, something better has not come to my mind yet.

So far, I g2g now, I'll add some more explanation later.

I agree with Doks that an extra win condition couldn't hurt. I tried Luminarch Ascension, but it just seemed too slow. Hanni, you had suggested I try Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek since I was also running E. Tutors and I held off, not wanting to give in. However, I've done some more testing on MWS and some live play and have given in. It's a straight U/W build that utilizes what I like best about your creation (Planeswalker beats, Predicts, lack of actual creatures that might suffer for removal) and what I like about ThopterTop (a secondary win condition, using E. Tutors as a toolbox for multiple answers to different threats). I posted the list in the Countertop Thopter thread, as I didn't want to clog this one up (and since b/c of the Thopters it doesn't belong here). If I had the duals and Vindicates I'd love to give Hanni's original version a try, but.....

Good luck with your build, I hope it gets recongnized soon.

I really like the ideas behind this deck. I've been trying to come to a decision over which control deck to play, and am currently trying to choose between some version of Walker control (of which I like this one the best), CounterTop Thopters, or even a more traditional U/W/b/g Landstill build.

You talk about match ups in terms of good, bad, or even. I was just wondering if you could put a % on some of the more popular decks one might face (Zoo, CT-Bant with and w/o NO, Merfolk, Goblins). Is there any match-up at all that you think is sub 50%, including games 1, 2, and 3?.

In any case I'm going to sleeve it up and do some testing over the next 2 weeks at home and my local events and see how it handles. I would like to see this or some other variant be the "control deck of choice" for Legacy rather than Lands, for which I have an unnatural hate for >.>

I've hated drawing Academy Ruins every time I've drawn it, so I moved it to the side, and put the basic Swamp back in. I cut one EE from the side for the Ruins, so I can side it in when I want/need to recur EE.

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You talk about match ups in terms of good, bad, or even. I was just wondering if you could put a % on some of the more popular decks one might face (Zoo, CT-Bant with and w/o NO, Merfolk, Goblins). Is there any match-up at all that you think is sub 50%, including games 1, 2, and 3?.

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I'm not a mathmetician, so any percentages that I come up with aren't going to be 100% accurate. I can attempt to set the percentages to what I feel they most closely resemble, but at the end of the day, it's just more accurate for me to use words like highly favorable, favorable, slightly favorable, even 50/50, etc.

In the future, after I get more dedicated testing against specific decks, I can attempt to compile some actual percentages. For right now, I don't have a testing partner, so my testing against specific decks comes at random times, against random opponent's.

There have been a few games that I have lost 0-2, but I'm not sure if that necessarily classifies those matchups as sub 50%.

One recent game where I went 0-2 was against a black/white deck that ran 4 Hymn to Tourach, 4 Gerrards Verdict, and other Pox-ish cards (Smallpox, Vindicate, etc). His win conditions were The Rack and Phyrexian Totem (from what I saw). The problem with this matchup is that it attacks both of the resources that are important to me (lands, and cards in hand), has answers to my Planeswalkers and Counterbalance with Vindicate, and has win conditions that blank most of my removal (The Rack is only destroyed by Vindicate, Totem dodges Doom Blade and WoG). I brought in EE's postboard, but still lost the second game.

I'm not sure if the B/W Pox matchup is sub 50%, since I only played one 2/3 game set against it. That's a likely candidate, though.

Dredge is another bad matchup, but I have 11 relevant sideboard cards against them, so it gets much better postboard. I don't think I'd consider the matchup sub 50% because of the postboard games being slightly favorable. Dredge is an easy matchup to hate out with sideboard hate, and that's essentially what I have access to.

Vial Aggro can be unfavorable in game 1 depending on the draws (both mine, and the opponent's). However, those matchups become highly favorable in postboard games because I have so many removal spells. These matchups remain favorable overall.

For the most part, this deck has at least a 50/50 against a majority of the format, due to nature of the deck. It is a reactive control deck with answers to literally everything between maindeck and sideboard, so there's very little that the deck can't answer with tight play and/or good draws. Most matchups are better than 50/50, and the deck has blowouts as well.

I can make a mini primer in the OP to address matchup analysis between Zoo, Bant (and its different varieties), Merfolk, and Goblins. I'll work on that as I get time. Also, if anyone is interested in helping me do big playtesting sessions on MWS, I'd greatly appreciate that as well (just PM me).

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I've hated drawing Academy Ruins every time I've drawn it, so I moved it to the side, and put the basic Swamp back in. I cut one EE from the side for the Ruins, so I can side it in when I want/need to recur EE.

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Now that's not a bad idea. Sideboarding a singleton Academy Ruins for the control mirror is something I may start playtesting soon.

As far as the CounterTop Thopters match is concerned, my friend and I were playtesting the mirror extensively the last 2 days, and I would say that in the majority of the games (80% or more), the winner was deterimined by who go their Counter/Top active first, or whoever had it stay around the longest. I would think that U/W/x CounterTop Walker vs CounterTop Thopters would boil down to the same conclusion, with Hanni's list coming out slightly favorable post board due to GY hate and Meddling Mage coming in for irrelevant creature removal. Obviously I haven't tested Hanni's list vs Thopters yet but thats just my 2 cents on how I'd expect it to go.

Predict is savage tech against Enlightened Tutor.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Predict is savage tech against Enlightened Tutor.

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That too. Totally forgot when you orignally talked about doing that to Mystical Tutor decks that it would work exactly the same way against Enlightened Tutor decks lol.

EDIT: I was just thinking, would either Proganda or Ghostly Prison be useful in this deck? I know neither were ever a part of a standard Landstill List, but they each cost one less than Wrath of God, and accomplish a similar goal of halting a creature onslaught. Obviously they don't permanently solve the problem, and the opponent can still get in one or 2 creatures worth of damage if they don't advance their plan, but in an early/mid game situation they are just as useful as Wrath and hit a turn earlier. Multiples are never bad, you can still handle troublesome creatures with spot removal, and assuming you use Proganda, it also pitches to Force if needed. The only other big problem I see is that using Prop opens your answer to their creatures up to enchantment removal, whereas Wrath can only be countered. What do you think?

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EDIT: I was just thinking, would either Proganda or Ghostly Prison be useful in this deck? I know neither were ever a part of a standard Landstill List, but they each cost one less than Wrath of God, and accomplish a similar goal of halting a creature onslaught. Obviously they don't permanently solve the problem, and the opponent can still get in one or 2 creatures worth of damage if they don't advance their plan, but in an early/mid game situation they are just as useful as Wrath and hit a turn earlier. Multiples are never bad, you can still handle troublesome creatures with spot removal, and assuming you use Proganda, it also pitches to Force if needed. The only other big problem I see is that using Prop opens your answer to their creatures up to enchantment removal, whereas Wrath can only be countered. What do you think?

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Without an mana denial, they won't be halting onslaught's very much. These spells do not promote over-extending either, so they really serve no purpose in this deck.

However, I'm starting to warm up to Vedalken Shackles more and more. It's just so powerful at locking the game down against aggro decks once you get to the midgame. I'm currently playtesting 1 Shackles main, but I'm likely going to fit 1-2 Shackles in the sideboard too.

I normally don't double post, but I have a new developmental list I'd like to share:

U/W/b CounterTop Walker

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [R] Tundra
2 [R] Underground Sea
1 [R] Scrubland
4 [UNH] Island
3 [UNH] Plains
1 [NE] Kor Haven

// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Predict
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [IA] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
2 [AP] Vindicate
2 [7E] Wrath of God
1 [ZEN] Day of Judgment
1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [OD] Innocent Blood
SB: 3 [US] Duress
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [TSP] Academy Ruins


I decided to cut the MD Doom Blades. I really want to maintain 3 WoG effects MD, but I also want to keep 1 MD Shackles. I could run a singleton Doom Blade, but I decided to just put the Predict count back to 4 for now.

Without the Doom Blades MD, I need less black sources, so I cut the 2nd Scrubland for another basic Plains.

I also decided to tweak my sideboard around. I've been doing alot of Merfolk playtesting lately, and while the 1-for-1 trades are fine, I find myself often wanting ways to increase the card advantage. Without CounterTop, I become very dependant on gaining card advantage through my removal spells and Predict.

Sometimes, Merfolk just plays more threats than I have removal for, when all I have is 1-for-1's. Vedalken Shackles is MVP in the Merfolk matchup. Thus, I put a 2nd copy in the sideboard.

I decided that since combo is on its way out, Duress is probably better than Meddling Mage. I lose my clock against combo, but Duress is still good against combo while being better against the control mirror. I cut 2 Relic's for 2 Pithing Needle's, just to see how it goes. I also added a single Academy Ruins to bring in against relevant control mirrors. The single Ruins may prove to be unecessary, in which case it could become a 3rd Relic or Needle.

This sideboard change is just developmental; I'm trying to figure out the right mix of cards to handle all forms of aggro, aggro/control, and control.

After playtesting against Rico Suave using Dreadstill, it has become apparent to me that this is a horrible matchup. They're Standstill + Factory package is superior to my Predict + Planeswalker package in the mirror. They are also better at successfully assembling an early CounterTop, and better at keeping me from resolving an early CounterTop. Postboard, their REB's neutralize my Duress, so I gain no ground.

Card advantage is a key aspect of control mirrors. They are better at gaining card advantage. They neutralize my Vedalken Shackles and WoG engines (Nought and Factory respectively). They gain more card advantage, and faster, with Standstill (compared to Predict). They have superiority in the CounterTop war, with CounterTop ultimately being a big source of card advantage. They're manlands make Jace ineffective, and multiple Factories/Trinket Mages and/or Dreadnought makes Elspeth ineffective.

Evidently, this is a very bad matchup. I'm not sure how to fix this matchup, either.

Duress is clearly necessary, because without it, the matchup is much worse. Needle seems like the strongest option possible, since shutting down Mishra's Factory means shutting down Standstill.

I'd like to do alot more playtesting regarding this matchup. I still want more testing against Merfolk as well. If anyone would like to playtest tomorrow night (on MWS), send me a PM. Thanks.

Damn it, forum ate my first attempt at this...

In my experience, too, Mishras are a big problem in control-mirrors where only one side has them. Both decks are so good at disrupting the other that having a 2/2 beater as part of your manabase becomes a pretty fearsome threat that can create a lot of tempo-advantage (especially post-SB when you want to reduce your removal-count). Everything else dies and the Mishra's keep churning. It's actually akin to old Vintage Keeper-mirrors were I regularly got to deal 10+ damage with a lowly Gorilla Shaman. The best solutions I have found for this are running your own Mishras and/or Wastelands. The fact that the solutions can't easily be countered - and in this particular matchup don't trigger Standstill - is pretty huge. One of the reasons JaceTM's matchup is good against all forms of Mishra + Standstill-decks is that it has more lands that actively win the manland-fight than they do. A minor modification of your manabase like even just adding 2 or 3 Wastelands would likely do wonders against all decks running manlands, as they allow you to stop the tempo-advantage the lands generate during the drawn-out fight for control. This frailty in the mirror was in my experience one of the biggest weaknesses of the manasource-only manabase when I was starting to built my own control-decks in Legacy instead of testing other people's lists.

As for the CB-problem, I don't see why they should be so much better at setting up the lock as they run 3/3 and you have full sets, but maybe the presence of Daze/Spell Snare in their deck allows them to stop you from assembling it much more efficiently, which shifts the advantage back to them. This problem is compounded for you as you are vulnerable to CB by having your own curve modelled to support it obviously, meaning a CB actually puts your development on hold for the most part and you only have 2 Vindicates to break out of it.

I think it might be advisable for you, at least if you have access to A.Ruins, to become a EE deck post SB and reduce your reliance on CounterTop if they really are better at getting it to resolve. CB decks in general have a really hard time dealing with recurring EEs because it breaks up the lock at variable casting costs. Instead of trying to be a better stack-control-deck (which is very hard against a deck like Dreadstill that is basically all carddrawing and countermagic, especially post SB) it might be better to try to ruin their ability to play on the board, an area where they don't particularly excel.

Hanni, maybe you should run your own Mishra's Factories?

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The best solutions I have found for this are running your own Mishras and/or Wastelands.

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But when I playtested against every other matchup, Mishra's Factories were just bad. I'm not sure that going back to that is worth it, especially at the expense of opening myself up to manabase instabiity.

I'm also not a fan of running Wasteland in my control deck that wants alot of lands in play.

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I think it might be advisable for you, at least if you have access to A.Ruins, to become a EE deck post SB and reduce your reliance on CounterTop if they really are better at getting it to resolve.

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I was actually considering that, but was unsure because I only run 1 Academy Ruins and they run 4 Wasteland's. That's a pretty solid idea, don't get me wrong. The reason I was hesistant was because a) they run Stifle, and b) if I assemble CounterTop, I'm at a huge advantage.

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Hanni, maybe you should run your own Mishra's Factories?

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They're bad in every other matchup besides the control mirror, though. There has to be a way to address that with the sideboard, rather than weaken the maindeck.

Honestly, I'm thinking Pithing Needle is my best option. 1 Needle shuts down all 4 Mishra's Factories, and it has the ability to shut down other randomness in control mirrors, like Academy Ruins and/or EE, opposing Top's (if they have theirs but I don't have mine yet), Jace (if they have their's but I don't have mine), etc. Pretty much all of their problem cards happen to be Needle targets; using one 1cc permanent to shut down all copies of the card seems huge.

I need to do alot of playtesting, which is going to be the only way to determine my best options.

(Dreadstill seems like it's the absolute worst mirror match for me out of all the other possible control mirrors, which is probably a good thing, since its the least popular one right now.)

The problem with Needle is that you said that they were far better at setting up Counter-Top. If so, Needle is only useful before they've gotten to that point and you still don't have the ability to break out of the lock with anything but Vindicate. A card that is that conditional doesn't seem like a way to turn a matchup that you have described as "very bad".

I think with the incredibly high basic/Fetch count your deck has, you might want to try out SBing B2B instead. Takes care of the Mishras and severely limits the amount of mana they have available to abuse CB-Top, not to mention that as a 3 it is significantly more likely to resolve through CB than Needle is. It would also be a sick SB-card against Landstill and Lands - actually against most Loam-decks in general. I might try SBing B2Bs and EEs next time you test against Dreadstill (even without the Ruins-lock, which doesn't work under B2B, a flexible answer to CB that also happens to get rid of 'Naugths if necessary seems good here).
The only problem with B2B is that it can be REBed giving them outs. If you were running red, Blood Moon would probably work even better.

Okay, I was all set to abandon this for CounterTop Thopter, then had a change of heart because this deck seems like it has so much potential. Hanni, I know you've mentioned a lack of tournament results with your build, so I figured I'd post mine here. Be forewarned, this is only U/W with a limited sideboard, mainly due to a lack of card options. I would definitely run Black w/Vindicates if I could. As you read the tournament report and decklist, keep in mind that while I love Legacy, this is only my third tournament, all three using new, different decks (for me), and that while I've played Magic sine 1995, I stopped in 1999 and just started again about 4 months ago.

Lands

4 Flooded Strand
10 Island
8 Plains
1 Kor Haven


Artifacts

4 Sensei's Divining Top


Spells

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Predict
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
1 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Disenchant
4 Counterbalance


Planeswalkers

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant


Sideboard

4 Path to Exile
2 Meddling Mage
1 Wrath of God
2 Disenchant
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Propaganda


It ended up being a 5-round tourney to get to the Top 8; there were 36 people or so. This version went 2-2-1, though one loss would have been a draw if not for time. I made several play errors, probably because I chose to play this cold. However, it was a complete blast to play, apart from being slow, and I'm eager to fine tune the U/W version and the sideboard. Next time I play will be about two or three weeks from now.

Match ups:
Round One: vs. Affinity; (Draw): I won the first game on the draw with a timely WofG and subsequent board control. He won the second game quickly, despite my addition of PtE. Third game was a won position on my end with an Active Jace and Elspeth, but with only two of the five turns after regular time expired, I couldn't convert and we drew. 0-0-1

Round Two: vs. Mono White Stax; (Loss): I lost the first game to double Smokestack - I had a Jace up to 11 but had to sac it to Stack. I had O-ringed his first stack, and he then O-ringed my O-ring, so I was desperately searching for my last one to put the game into a draw. Sadly, he landed the second Stack and it was game over. Second game I had a won position,with an active Jace and good board control, but again, went over the time limit and in the final sudden death turns couldn't convert, so I ended up taking a loss instead of the draw. 0-1-1

Round Three: vs. Lands; (Loss): I lost the first game to a Burning Wish into some G/B Wurm card that made a shitton of 1/1's. I had an active Elspeth that had already made all my stuff indestrucible, but had no counters or board sweepers, even with a SDT; once my opponent cast the Wurm card, then recast it from his GY (I forget the name of the mechanic), my 5 1/1's couldn't beat the 19 1/1's he threw my way. I won the second game with Relic of Progenitus and Pithing Needle shutting down his EE. Third game he landed a Countryside Crusher; I hadn't seen any creatures in the match thus far, so only had my StP and WofG in the main. I couldn't pull one and he won this one in five or six turns. 0-2-1

Round Four: BYE. Lame, but I grabbed dinner. 1-2-1

Round Five: vs. U/B/G something or other; (Win): I won the first game, but it took 35 minutes to do so. He'd land a Goyf and a Tombstalker and I'd have answers. He'd use Volrath's Stronghold and I'd Predict it away. However, I couldn't find a damn Planeswalker for the first eight turns or so. Second game ended in overtime with no winner, though I was in control. 2-2-1

I was very pleased with how everything ran, minus how slow it sometimes felt. There were only a few occasions where I couldn't find an answer to something; unfortunately, those occasions cost me matches. I believe this U/W version would benefit from a Vedalken Shackles and EE and more Pithing Needles in the SB. My EE arrived in the mail the day after the tourney; by next tourney I should have more of each and maybe more Meddling Mage (who did great coming into the SB, as he was never killed, only o-ringed). I would also run Tundras if I had the money to buy them, and I only ran into mana trouble in one game and only for an extra turn; however, there's something very satisfying about letting an opponent's Wasteland sit there. Kor Haven kicked ass when I had it out - definitely a 1-of if not two - it was awesome having a permanent answer to a problem creature. Lastly, I'd also use Moat if I had one, but that'll be a while.

If I have any other thoughts or observations I'll post them; hope this helps with the overall post/deck idea. I know it isn't the "ideal" build, but just trying to work with what I have. My own noob play mistakes definitely attributed to at least one of the losses - should have played faster with a better eye on the clock.

Cheers.