Overextended/Neo-Legacy format scenario

why can't wizards reprint the original duals? they have already reprinted some of the cards in the reserved list. Karn, Silver Golem, Masticore, Memory Jar, Mox Diamond, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Phyrexian Negator, Powder Keg, Thawing Glaciers, Wheel of Fortune to name a few. please forgive my stupidity if i don't know, i'm new to legacy.

let's all face the truth, dual lands are important in legacy decks. even merforlk and goblins (the only mono colored tier one decks) are already splashing colors. that's already evidence enough that dual lands are important in every legacy deck. if ever there are still mono colored goblins and merfolk in tournaments, not all of them are mono colored by choice. some of those players using mono colored decks don't have the means to acquire the proper dual lands they need to splash and i'm one of them.

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Originally Posted by bloodbrother

why can't wizards reprint the original duals? they have already reprinted some of the cards in the reserved list. Karn, Silver Golem, Masticore, Memory Jar, Mox Diamond, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Phyrexian Negator, Powder Keg, Thawing Glaciers, Wheel of Fortune to name a few. please forgive my stupidity if i don't know, i'm new to legacy.

let's all face the truth, dual lands are important in legacy decks. even merforlk and goblins (the only mono colored tier one decks) are already splashing colors. that's already evidence enough that dual lands are important in every legacy deck. if ever there are still mono colored goblins and merfolk in tournaments, not all of them are mono colored by choice. some of those players using mono colored decks don't have the means to acquire the proper dual lands they need to splash and i'm one of them.

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iirc, right after GP Madrid they said something about 'this was our largest tournament to date, obviously we want Legacy to prosper'. They invited Menendian and some other store owners(SCG?) to talk about it. Then they said 'sorry folks, no more reprints. Can't tell you why, non-disclosure agreement'.

tl;dr version: No idea. Conspiracy theories(including something about 'collectors' not wanting reprints) abound.

If the duals would be reprinted, prices will drop. They may not plummet, but they will drop, especially for the white bordered ones.

I have no idea how the American legal system works, but here if you as a company release information about the availability of your product which can influence its prices on the secondary market (basically give people the reassurance that your product is of limited stock which won't be renewed), and people act on it, you could theoretically be held accountable if you later return on your word and cause the value of their investment to diminish. If you violate the expectation you legitimately created earlier and people's investments crash, lawsuits could very well follow here.

Those major retailers have hundreds, perhaps thousands of duals in stock. If even one of them threatened with legal action in case the value of their stock drops significantly after WotC would change its reprint policy, and in case their lawyers would have confirmed this, you can be 100% sure none of the cards on that list will ever be reprinted again.

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Originally Posted by Eddy Wally

If the duals would be reprinted, prices will drop. They may not plummet, but they will drop, especially for the white bordered ones.

I have no idea how the American legal system works, but here if you as a company release information about the availability of your product which can influence its prices on the secondary market (basically give people the reassurance that your product is of limited stock which won't be renewed), and people act on it, you could theoretically be held accountable if you later return on your word and cause the value of their investment to diminish. If you violate the expectation you legitimately created earlier and people's investments crash, lawsuits could very well follow here.

Those major retailers have hundreds, perhaps thousands of duals in stock. If even one of them threatened with legal action in case the value of their stock drops significantly after WotC would change its reprint policy, and in case their lawyers would have confirmed this, you can be 100% sure none of the cards on that list will ever be reprinted again.

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They could get around this if they were to reorganize the company and change its name. Probably won't happen unless they get sold to someone, but theoretically it is a workaround to the Reserved List. Different company, different rules.

Someone mentioned a while ago that you could get around it by printing functional reprints. Manabases can only get so big, so while it may be *ideal* for some decks to run four originals and four of the functional reprints, it would give people a budget option to smooth their decks out, and to jump into legacy without a massive investment in the secondary market. Since you can't reprint Underground Sea, printing something like:

Rather Moist Icky Place
Nonbasic Island Swamp Zombie
t: Add U or B to your mana pool.

The shocklands were a step in the right direction, but 2 life per land is FAR too steep a cost to pay compared to the zero that those who own the original duals pay.

As for the reserve list cards that were reprinted, I believe WotC got around that by arguing that because they were premium versions, they weren't reprints, but have since revised their policy so that NO reprints of them will occur regardless of their state. But still, change the name, add a wierd type to the card, and you get "legal" reprints.

Wishing for fetchable artifact duals in Scars block....

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Originally Posted by majikal

They could get around this if they were to reorganize the company and change its name. Probably won't happen unless they get sold to someone, but theoretically it is a workaround to the Reserved List. Different company, different rules.

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Not really. When you take over a company you take its place in every contract and obligation it entered into. If you'd have to start from scratch, you'd also have to renegotiate every labour contract with each and every employee for example. Even if that weren't the case, it would not be something they'd do for the sake of the reserved list.

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Originally Posted by Eddy Wally

If the duals would be reprinted, prices will drop. They may not plummet, but they will drop, especially for the white bordered ones.

I have no idea how the American legal system works, but here if you as a company release information about the availability of your product which can influence its prices on the secondary market (basically give people the reassurance that your product is of limited stock which won't be renewed), and people act on it, you could theoretically be held accountable if you later return on your word and cause the value of their investment to diminish. If you violate the expectation you legitimately created earlier and people's investments crash, lawsuits could very well follow here.

Those major retailers have hundreds, perhaps thousands of duals in stock. If even one of them threatened with legal action in case the value of their stock drops significantly after WotC would change its reprint policy, and in case their lawyers would have confirmed this, you can be 100% sure none of the cards on that list will ever be reprinted again.

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This isn't the case in the states. Where are you from that this has legal precedent?

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Originally Posted by Eddy Wally

Not really. When you take over a company you take its place in every contract and obligation it entered into. If you'd have to start from scratch, you'd also have to renegotiate every labour contract with each and every employee for example. Even if that weren't the case, it would not be something they'd do for the sake of the reserved list.

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There would be no re-negotiating anything. It is not a contract, it's a company policy. And as they've shown by doing it already, policies are subject to change.

They could change the reprint policy again and reprint Beta with new card frames and foils and from a legal standpoint, I don't believe the upset collector's or players would have a leg to stand on.

Now, that doesn't mean they will do this, or even have plans to change the reprint policy again. But policies are malleable and subject to change when and if the companies needs make said policy obsolete or defunct.

Policies are a subject to change, they are "promises" but they can change.

They could reprint something like this:

"Artifact swamp/island"

tap: add u/b

and a few lands a la

"very cool 4of"
land - artifact locus
all lands are indestructible
tap:add 1 to mana pool

"neo wasteland"
add 1
Target player sacrifices target nonbasic land

its complicating..

or just a reprint with some new name. "Tropical Peninsula", "underground lake", "Island of Vulcanoes" :D

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Originally Posted by Eddy Wally

Those major retailers have hundreds, perhaps thousands of duals in stock. If even one of them threatened with legal action in case the value of their stock drops significantly after WotC would change its reprint policy, and in case their lawyers would have confirmed this, you can be 100% sure none of the cards on that list will ever be reprinted again.

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Except this will never happen, because that retailer would then go out of business because they would never get any new Hasbro product ever again. Good luck maintaining single card sales when you have no new product to open/sell.

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Originally Posted by Meekrab

Except this will never happen, because that retailer would then go out of business because they would never get any new Hasbro product ever again. Good luck maintaining single card sales when you have no new product to open/sell.

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Also, you can't threat legal action against a policy...

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Originally Posted by swoop

its complicating..

or just a reprint with some new name. "Tropical Peninsula", "underground lake", "Island of Vulcanoes" :D

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Reserved cards will never be printed again in a functionally identical form, but they could make:

Swamp Island
When this comes into play opponents get 1 life

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Originally Posted by Humphrey

Reserved cards will never be printed again in a functionally identical form, but they could make:

Swamp Island
When this comes into play opponents get 1 life

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This might have once been the case, but this got thrown out the window in M11.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...5038&type=card http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...1294&type=card

Do not give me that garbage about Reverberate being different from Fork. In most cases where it matters, these cards are functionally identical. Given that Fork sits happily on the Reserve List, Wizards had to know what they were doing when they printed this. This card might represent Wizards response to the List and the ultimate Hasbro decision. Or it might be a one time anomaly (unlikely).

If this is representative of a Wizards stance or card-creation policy, then the whole Overextended format need not ever exist. Functional reprints of Legacy staples would keep the format both alive and even thriving.

Here's hoping.

-ktkenshinx-

Well, If they do happen to stop supporting legacy as a format I'm pretty sure I would still play it, was playing it before it was supported anyhow, even though dragon combo was quite rampant back then.

Also, fork's oracle text seems even closer to reverberate than the card text, Copy target instant or sorcery spell, except that the copy is red. You may choose new targets for the copy. >> wtb reprints.

I like legacy for diversity, going to overextended would mean buying lots of new staples = no go for me. (plus i wouldn't be able to play aluren)

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Originally Posted by ns2973

This isn't the case in the states. Where are you from that this has legal precedent?

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I'm a former lawyer from Belgium. Things work differently here. If you announce an intention that's worded as if it is permanent without a caveat that you might change that policy and people act on it, there's a good chance they'd be able to sue you for reparations here if you suddenly go against what you promised earlier and they suffer damages because of that.

As I said, I have no idea how things work on your side of the pond. I was speculating.

I hate to burst anyone's bubble who still thinks overextended will still happen, but not gonna happen.
Reasons...

It's a bad business decision if WoTC did do it. WoTC from a money making standpoint wants people to buy packs. They forever want standard and draft to be the most popular formats by far because that is how they make the most money. It's likely it would be cheaper to make a good "Over-Extended" deck than a current Standard deck and the OE deck would be good for much longer without any additional investment. If this pulled people away from T2 and Ext that would be bad for them.

Why keep Legacy around then? Take me for example, I haven't played T2 since Rav block, I still spend money on MTG because Legacy exists. From a business perspective it is good for them to keep Legacy around now that it is out because there are plenty of people like me who would not play Magic if they couldn't play the cool cards they wanted to play with when they were younger. I've wanted Moats and dual lands since I was in middle school, now I have them, if you take them away I tell WoTC to eat a dick and never play Magic again. Most Legacy players you will find fall into 2 categories. 1: They basically only play Legacy, maybe draft or EDH. 2: They play every format, always have the best T2 deck, and a good Legacy deck because they like the prize support and extra tournaments. Most Legacy players either already spend lots of money on new cards or would never spend money on Magic if Legacy didn't exist. Protip: If you don't own a non-budget Legacy deck IRL and play it, you don't count for this exercise.

Why make Over-Extended? There is no good reason, that's why it's not going to happen. No one ever played the old Extended, that is why they got rid of it, not because they needed to make room for a new format. Old Extended went back 7 years, "Over-Extended" would go back 11 years, why would WoTC make a format that is similar to the least popular format they had? Seriously, outside of PT I would guess there were more Vintage tournaments over 50 people than extended. Extended literally died on the vine, Legacy is popular, Wizards wants people to buy new cards, does any of this point to a new format? Legacy is right where it needs to be right now, what the future holds is anyone's guess. Dual lands have dropped back down in price after most people who wanted them bought in earlier this year. WoTC is fine with the situation and we have entered the age of T2 staples regularly costing more then dual lands, so I can't see any complaints about the price of Legacy being taken seriously.

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Originally Posted by ktkenshinx

This might have once been the case, but this got thrown out the window in M11.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...5038&type=card http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...1294&type=card

Do not give me that garbage about Reverberate being different from Fork. In most cases where it matters, these cards are functionally identical. Given that Fork sits happily on the Reserve List, Wizards had to know what they were doing when they printed this. This card might represent Wizards response to the List and the ultimate Hasbro decision. Or it might be a one time anomaly (unlikely).

If this is representative of a Wizards stance or card-creation policy, then the whole Overextended format need not ever exist. Functional reprints of Legacy staples would keep the format both alive and even thriving.

Here's hoping.

-ktkenshinx-

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I would argue that Fork is not so strong that people would necessarily play it as a 8-of. On the other hand, if they reprinted the duals, that would clearly be bad as you can essentially play 8 cards instead of 4.

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Originally Posted by ummon

I would argue that Fork is not so strong that people would necessarily play it as a 8-of. On the other hand, if they reprinted the duals, that would clearly be bad as you can essentially play 8 cards instead of 4.

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Most decks wont play more Duals because of Wasteland or more colors than 2. Already a lot of lists run only 3ofs