So shouldn't everyone be held to the same (high) standard then?Quote:
Originally Posted by ns2973
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So shouldn't everyone be held to the same (high) standard then?Quote:
Originally Posted by ns2973
Define a pro level magic player for me. What do YOU think makes someone a pro?Quote:
Originally Posted by Solaran_X
We are all on the same playing field, guess what, if Saito draws for shit in the last round or the first, he's JUST as screwed as you and me. If some kid qualifies with a pre con? He has JUST as much opportunity to win as saito. It's like your job, you are all on the same level field, that doesn't mean your abilities are the same. Anyone can call anyone a pro, there really isn't any finite line in magic.
Most good magic players earn positive cash flow from playing. Are they pro's? I know guys that have played pro tour events, they have day jobs, can they be pro's?
Yup, in my opinion at least, should all be the same standard. What you define as "high" may vary from the next.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpT
Then again, i don't think athletes should be role models either in terms of anything but skill, i don't hold them to a higher standard than anyone else and they ARE actually pro's.
How about the players who play on the Pro Tour?Quote:
Originally Posted by ns2973
How about the players who do well at the Grand Prixs and such and get Pro Points?
How about the players with enough Pro Points to get paid simply to go to GPs and PTs in addition to airfare and lodging?
There is an obvious finite line between Pro and amateur in Magic. Whether or not you're willing to see it or acknowledge is another issue.Quote:
We are all on the same playing field, guess what, if Saito draws for shit in the last round or the first, he's JUST as screwed as you and me. If some kid qualifies with a pre con? He has JUST as much opportunity to win as saito. It's like your job, you are all on the same level field, that doesn't mean your abilities are the same. Anyone can call anyone a pro, there really isn't any finite line in magic.
The biggest line between pro and amateur is card stock. Some kid with a precon isn't going to have a chance in comparison to someone like Saitou who, as a dealer, has access to any card he needs to build any deck for any event in any format. And if he doesn't have the card on hand, he likely has the available money to quick purchase one or borrow one from a teammate.
Furthermore, a Pro's life basically revolves around Magic. A Pro isn't someone who plays for fun once or twice a week and goes to nearby GPs and PTQs. A Pro is someone who play tests for hours and hours each day, either in person or online with his teammates - using every possible deck in the format against every possible deck in the format to determine what deck is best for which metagame.
Being a Pro player takes a rather large investment of both time AND money - and not many people are willing to make that investment for any of a dozen possible reasons.
Many of the true Pro players have jobs that involve Magic (such as a dealer), or are students and can take the time off from school to travel (on Wizard's dime if they got enough Pro Points) to exotic destinations for GPs and PTs and Worlds. But some guy who happened to play in a Pro Tour once or twice and works a normal 9-5 isn't going to be able to get the time off to regularly do GPs or PTs. And that's assuming you're referring to someone who actually played in the Pro Tour and not just a Grand Prix or Pro Tour Qualifier.Quote:
Most good magic players earn positive cash flow from playing. Are they pro's? I know guys that have played pro tour events, they have day jobs, can they be pro's?
I don't condone or accept cheating by anyone, so I have no idea what you're talking about. It's obvious you drew a conclusion from something so trivial that to purport it after I blatantly said that Saito stalled and should have been reprimanded for his conduct - is just plain preposterous. You've chastised my belief that players like Saito - just because they have a higher rating - deserve fair treatment under strict rules enforcement, when you yourself have no idea what I was talking about by the simple fact you disregarded the posts made long before I ever spoke to you directly on this matter - and in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Solaran_X
You are classifying "amateur" players by their skill of play and not the fact they can simply pay to enter the same event - just like Saito did - and potentially end up with the same results. They may not be as good as Saito is, but judging by your retort you obviously support and condone Magic: the Gathering or poker as a game that can be classified as a profession, which I explicitly disagree with.
Just because you are good at something doesn't make you a professional at it. Just because you hold yourself to "professional" standards doesn't make you a professional at it. Who deems who a professional? Wizards? You can be an expert at what you do, but predicating your livelihood and income on a card game by paying to enter the same tournament as a "professional" level player would immediately declassify that person as being, as what you call it, a "pro". Magic and poker are (in my eyes) almost professional endeavors except for one glaring omission:
You don't necessarily earn anything when you play. You could pay to have fun and exhibit professional mannerisms and not do well, which is fine. But there are massive losses that could be accrued in this game - just like in poker - and that is what distinctly separates this game and other card games based on gambling your financial resources in an attempt to gain personal wealth.
Also, the Pro Tour is setup to invite players who have performed well over the course of their time playing by inviting them to play in a series of events designed to showcase the game as being the premiere collectible card game in the world, and instilling the belief in people who don't have the time or resources that they too can involve themselves by paying more to play in large events and encouraging them to do well. All it is is an invitational event rewarding people for doing well. That's not to take away from their intelligence in the matter, however; some of those people are very smart at what they do.
Wizards are the professionals here and they are the ones who take the time to reward people for paying money to play in their events and advertising the game throughout the Magic universe so people will spend more money on their product.
Do you see Pro Tours setup for Legacy? No. Why? Because the cards are expensive and advertising an older product that has no bearing on the future of the game won't elicit a positive response for inexperienced, younger players wanting to ask their moms and dads for the paycheck so they can buy those cards they heard were so good. In that respect, perhaps. But that is all but a smokescreen when claiming "individual professionalism" for a single player, when it is Wizards that are ultimately generating the revenue.
Oh, ok. So you are a pro when you hit what, pro tour level 7 when they pay for all your airfare? (they don't pay for lodging) The highest possible payout in appearance fees is about 10k a season. (to the best of my knowledge, i could be wrong). I guess the 10k and free airfare just doesn't scream pro like say professional contracts etc.
The pro tour in magic is just a tournament that you have to qualify for, thats it bro. If you qualify, you can play.
Actually you get the 10k, airfare and all the magic groupies. That is worth something right? Pro players are a myth, like you said you just have to qualify.
Hollywood is right about Magic and poker not being professions. The definition of a profession is using specific knowledge/skills to 'trade' services, that only you can do because of your profession, with others. Pro's don't exactly 'trade' their knowledge, they essentially use their knowledge to exploit others.
But I don't think that most people interpret the term Pro player as a player who made playing Magic his professions. My english might fail here, but the term 'professional' (or 'pro') seems to be a little wider than someone who has a profession. One could be considered a professional in all sorts of games/sports/whatevers, but still not make their money with it. It seems that professional is just an indication of someone's skill level in something.
In most MTG-related conversations, I see "pro" being conventionally used to mean "someone who doesn't need to PTQ".
If you wish to convey a very different meaning, I would recommend making it clear in your post.
High level pros get appearance fees and additional perks for attending GP and PT events. Some pros may even be sponsored by a shop or website and receive money or other considerations (ability to borrow thousands of dollars of cards, food, hotel room, etc) for promoting the shop/website by wearing t-shirts, writing articles, or mentioning the shop/website during interviews.
Benefits:Quote:
Oh, ok. So you are a pro when you hit what, pro tour level 7 when they pay for all your airfare? (they don't pay for lodging) The highest possible payout in appearance fees is about 10k a season. (to the best of my knowledge, i could be wrong). I guess the 10k and free airfare just doesn't scream pro like say professional contracts etc.
4 Pro tours a year and 18 grand Prix:Quote:
Level 7
Member is invited to his or her country's national championship
Member receives three byes at all Grand Prix tournaments
Member is invited to all Pro Tours and the World Championship
Member receives a $1750 appearance fee whenever he or she competes in a Pro Tour or the World Championship
Member receives expenses-paid air travel ticket to all Pro Tours and the World Championship during the current season*
Member receives a $250 appearance fee whenever he or she competes in a Grand Prix
Level 8
Member is invited to his or her country's national championship
Members receives three byes at all Grand Prix tournaments
Member is invited to all Pro Tours and the World Championship
Member receives a $2250 appearance fee whenever he or she competes in a Pro Tour or the World Championship
Member receives expenses-paid air travel ticket and hotel accommodations at all Pro Tours and the World Championship during the current season*
Member receives a $500 appearance fee whenever he or she competes in a Grand Prix
Level 7: 1750 x 4 + 250 x 18 = 11500 + Expenses paid for Pro Tours.
Level 8: 2250 x 4 + 500 x 18 = 18000 + Expenses paid for Pro Tours.
Those incomes aren't taxed here in Europe due to the difficulty to check it by the governments. Quite the income for playing a card game.
Although that math is a little off, because I'm sure it costs the Level 8s well over $500 to travel to any particular Grand Prix.
Does anybody know if Saito was disqualified without prize at GP Portland last weekend?
Check out the standings here:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...por10/standfin
63 Nelson, Brad J [USA] $200 1
64 Saitou, Tomoharu [JPN]
65 Mead, Forrest W [USA]
Do you notice something interesting? Saito finished 64th with no money or pro point awarded. I was under the impression that 33rd-64th place all received $200 and 1 point, per documentation here:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Eve...rix/portland10
So does anybody know if the standings are incorrect or if there was an incident?
looooooool.Quote:
Originally Posted by JACO
Saito wasn't DQ'd, if he ever has a major incident at a Magic tournament there would be all sorts of stories immediately after the event took place. The only notable incident to take place at GP: Portland was how fucking horrific Day 1 was in terms of how the tournament was run.