Spiral Tide

Not Really. Spell Pierce is the natural substitute for Pact of Negation in the matches that, the latter, is not good. I side Spell Pierces against:

-Counterbalance decks
-Decks that may play Torn of amethyst/Chalice of the void/trinisphere, I mean non-creature permanent hate cards.
-Decks that pack hand disruption.

In none of those situations dipel is even useful

The deck works fine against dekcs with counterspells, so dispel is most of times a win more card, only being very relevant in mirror matchs (which are not that usual...).

I may also side them against really slow decks with Coutnermagic, such as Landstill, since iin those matches Retraced image are not that good, in fact they may be very irrelevant, so adding pierces may help while starting the combo or even protecting from an early Jace (though is not such a problem in normal situations...).

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

Quote:

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Originally Posted by egosum

-Counterbalance decks

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Against that deck, what are your side out plan?
I figure you bring in 4 Spell Pierces, and 1 Wipe Away (and leave the other on the board).

Also, when do you bring in Snap? In place of what?

I'm liking my MD so much now, I'm really having trouble to bring these cards in g2/g3...

This was my sideboard plan during the Tournament last Saturday:


1st - UBG Landstill - Antoni Sànchez

-3x Retraced Image
-1x High Tide

+4x Spell Pierce

2nd- BW Training Rebel Counter-top - Eloïm Cutillas

-3x Pact of Negation
-1x Retraced Image
-1x Can't remember (but I guess it was Ponder)

+4x Spell Pierce
+1x Wipe Away

3rd- Aggro Loam - Didac Moreno

-3x Pact of Negation
-1x Retraced Image

+2x Spell Pierce
+1x Wipe Away
+1x Snap

(When I realised he didn't play white, so no Teeg nor Canonist, I sided the fourth Spell Pierce instead of the Snap)

4th Goblins - Wette

-1x Retraced Image

+1x Wipe Away

(He told me that his side was composed by 5x REB, so I prefered to keep the Pacts in, if I wouldn't know then my side would have been -3 Pact of Negation for 1x Wipe Away and 2x Spell Pierce)

5th- Canadian Threshold - Víctor Ballarín

I sided nothing. THe main performs very well against Canadian.

6th- Quest of the Holy Relic - Oscar Messegué

-3x Pact of Negation
-1x High Tide

+3x Spell Pierce
+1x Snap

Top 8- Aggro Loam - Didac Moreno

-3x Pact of Negation
-1x Retraced Image

+3x Spell Pierce
+1x Wipe Away

Top 4 Quest of the Holy Relic - Oscar Messegué

-3x Pact of Negation

+2x Spell Pierce
+1x Snap

Hope this helps.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

Intuition is definetly a must if you play Spirals/Turnabouts as your only untap effect. Its the only card that can tutor for Spiral.

Shouldn't this thread be moved to Established Decks?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ddt15

Intuition is definetly a must if you play Spirals/Turnabouts as your only untap effect. Its the only card that can tutor for Spiral.

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Been tweaking and tuning for a week now. I'm currently testing Intuition, completely replaced Meditates. Scroll>Intuition>Spiral is a lifesaver if you already have the Tides and islands. I'm pushing for a straightforward Stroke kill in order to sidestep Stifle and Emrakul triggers. Meditate leans toward the freeze kill so I dropped it in my main although I'm still capable of doing Stroke+freeze when I feel like it.

4 High Tide/4 Scalding Tarn/14 Island
4 Merchant Scroll/3 Cunning Wish/1 Intuition
4 Brainstorm/3 Ponder/3 Preordain/1 Stroke of Genius
4 Time Spiral/4 Turnabout/3 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

SB: Toils of Night and Day, Meditate, Stroke, Brainfreeze, Rewind (or Dispel), 2 Wipe Aways, Hurkyl's, Rebuild, Echoing Truth, Snap, 2 Ravenous Trap, 2 Mindbreak Trap (or Spell Pierce/Divert)

Remember, you heard it first here on TheSource.

Forgot 7 cards:
4 Force of Will/3 Pact of Negation

Afer thinking a lot about it I see 2 big problems of replacing Meditate qith intuition: You need more mana to play what you get (if the idea is to play TS that means a lot of mana). But the main problem that I see is that intuition gets worse as you keep playing Time Spirals while Meditate remains as good. Some other issues are that meditate can save you from a hard mulligan against not very fast decks, while intuition won't (at least at low cost).

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

Yeah! 1st champ with the deck, and it was awesome.
Ended 4-1

4 High Tide/6 Fetch/11 Island
4 Merchant Scroll/2 Cunning Wish/1 Intuition (MVP)
4 Brainstorm/3 Ponder/4 Preordain/1 Stroke of Genius
4 Time Spiral/3 Turnabout/1 Candelabra of Tawnos / 3 Cloud of Faeries / 1 Retrace Image (didn't like it at all... will became the 4th Faeries)
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 FoW/ 3 Pact of Negation.

SB: 1 off: Stroke; Snap; Slaughter Pact; Pact of Negation; Meditate; Brain Freeze; Rebuild; Dispel; Echoing Truth.
2 Wipe Away; 4 Spell Pierce.
(I'll defnetely take out Pact from SB for a Turnabout...)

1st Match: BG "rock" a.k.a. Adrianne.
Game 1: He leads with Seize, and I FoW, knowing that he only has 3 Seize as discards, but runs Extirpate.
Some turns later, I Play High Tide, Turnabout and Time Spiral, and he Extirpates High Tide. It didn't mattered, and I stroked him.

Game 2: He leads with Seize, taking High Tide. I preordain into Spell Pierce, but he gets Challice @1. Next turn he Hymns me, and the Hymn again.
I only needed 1 more land to do Turnabout + Spiral, but he took the Spiral with the 2nd Hymn. Then while I drew only 1cc cards, he attempted to Challice for 3, But I Intuition for FoW, and counter it. Didn't mattered, since I never got Wish, and he beat me down. When I tryied to combo of trough that, I was 1 mana short to untap my things.

Game 3: Was easy I guess. I Pierced something, and went off T4 or 5, with 2 High Tides and Spiral.

1-0

2nd Match: Goblins
Game 1: I start with land,he with lackey. I drop land, he hits me, getting SGC. I drop Land, he hits me, and gets a Chieftain. I eot Intuition for Timespiral, and went off. Emrakul killed him.

Game 2, I FoW his 1st turn Lackey, but he has other next turn. capable of going for a T5 kill. I dig to kill him on my T4, protected. I Cast High Tide, he Pyroblasts it. Another high Tide from my side, with Candelabra helping out, let me got Time Spiral, and win protected. I had to Wish for Snap, to get me exactly 15 mana to cast Emrakul.

2-0

3rd Match: TES
Game 1: I don't know what he's playing, but I have a T3 Time Spiral. He opens with Duress. I FoW. Play land and pass. He duress again. I Brainstorm, hiding Time Spiral and High Tide. I drop land, and Preordain. He goes of with AdN...

Game 2: Don't really remember, but lasts forever. I Pierce his Duress, while he does not do many things. I try to go off, but fizzle, getting only a Preordain, and getting no business. Fortunately, I had also 3 Spell Piereces and a FoW and Turnabout, that bought me enough turns to find High Tide, Spiral, and get him with Emrakul.

Game 3: Was pretty long too.I had 2 FoW I guess, and empy my hand, but he could not go off to,while wasted some Petals with Chant and Brainstorm. At turn 6 I guess, I had 3 cards left, so when he passed the turn, I eot Turnabouted my lands, and got 5 new cards. One or two turns later I was able to go off protected.

3-0

4th Match: W Stax.
Game 1:I keep a solid hand, with 2 FoW, Wish, 2 Lands, a Preordain, and something Blue. He leads with Tomb + Challice @1. I FoW, and Preordain. He cast Crucible. I play land. He play Trinisphere, and I let it resolve. I play land, and he plays Smockestack. I Wish for Rebuild. He plays nothing, and I Rebuild. He plays Trini, and I Fow. He plays Armageddon, and I Pact, and pay 5 in my upkeep. 2 Turns later, I find a Brainstorm, that gets me the kill.

Game 2: I mull, and find no hate. He starts with Defense Grid, Then Challice @1, then @2, and starts hitting me. I Intuition for Bounce, but he gives me a Wipe Away. I find only 5 lands, having Tide, Spiral, Turnabout and Wipe Away in hand, and draw only bad things. (1 more land I could have gone: Wipe Away, @Challice @1, High Tide, Turnabout and Time Spiral...) I only Turnabout and Time Spiral, but find 6 1cc cards, and 1 Emrakul... gg.

Game 3: I mull, into no Pierce / FoW. He starts with Grid, and resolves. I Scroll for FoW, and then Wish for Rebuild, while on 3 lands only, and he had Trini, Grid, Chalice @1, and 1 card in hand. It was an Armaggedon. I never get to draw 3 lands again, and Elspeth kills me.

3-1

5th Match: GW goodstuff.
Game 1: I combo for Stroke turn 4-5, with no need for protection. The 1st Spiral gets me only Preordain, CoF, Turnabout, Fow and Lands. Preordain finds me nothing, but I cycle Cloud of Faeries ang get an Intuition.

Game 2: I get a hand with Scroll, Wish, lands and cantrips. He mulls after hate, but don't find any. I go off for Stroke T5, protected against any hate.

4-1
4th place.

I was very pleased with the deck. Even the match I lost, Stax, seemed like a good one, having I only drawn 1 more land game 2, or 1 Pierce/FoW game 3, I'd have won both...
Also, it's awesome when you start comboing, and people finally find out what you'r playing.
Will be piloting it more times for sure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by death

I've been testing 3 in my list. Wouldn't go for 4 as drawing multiples early suck (aside from not being able to pitch for Force), however it gets better after spiraling. Ima stick with 3.

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I still don't understand why people are not running 4 of this card. I have settled on 4 as the right number awhile ago. When mana is tight I definitely want to draw this card over any over any untap options. It also works wonders with Mind over Matter, which many people may not be running but I think it gets better with Time Spiral not worse.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by egosum

Afer thinking a lot about it I see 2 big problems of replacing Meditate qith intuition: You need more mana to play what you get (if the idea is to play TS that means a lot of mana). But the main problem that I see is that intuition gets worse as you keep playing Time Spirals while Meditate remains as good. Some other issues are that meditate can save you from a hard mulligan against not very fast decks, while intuition won't (at least at low cost).

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

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Well tbh I replaced a 3rd Wish for Intuition, though I rarely cast the maindeck Meditate. It just seems... well most of the time, I don't wanna draw four cards, I just want one specific card. Running a single copy just gives you another path to your combo pieces. I have had no problems running two Wishes. I now run snap over intuition though.

I rarely Spiral more than twice anyway, after that its just scroll->turnabout, loads of mana and cunning wish->stroke of genius on myself for 10-15-ish, then its easy to work up to 19 storm and brain freeze with four counters and wish backup.

I'm also inclined to run Fearies over Retraced Image, Image is great, can get you some crazy openings but is too reliant on land to be really good in the early game, I find myself cantripping for lands alot early in the game, with a uselesss Image in hand. Obviously not running Image lets you run more fetchlands, which is always great with brainstorm. On top of that Fearie lets you accelerate into Spiral with only 3 lands and a high tide, Image can't do that or you need to have played it in the turns before. Once going off the mana they generate is comparable as well. I run spring tide's 4 fearies+1 md snap like the deck on scg, the ability to go off without needing Spiral at all is also important. In control matcups, you side out the spring tide package for spell pierce's and some other card, then you basically play ego's list.

Last but not least; I'm quite fond of Misdirection over Pact, sure the card disadvantage hurts abit, but being able to redirect Orim's Chant, Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy etc (the list goes on) is vital. These are some of the strongest cards against this deck, and misdirecting them has won me quite a few games where pact would've been totally useless. Could be I'm just fond of them because there is so much storm combo around here, and this is exactly where they can really shine. Eat my redirected Chant, ANT! I'll go off without a hitch now.

My current list:

4 High Tide
4 Time Spiral
3 Turnabout
4 Cloud of Fearies
1 Snap

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection

4 Merchant Scroll
2 Cunning Wish
1 Meditate

1 Brain Freeze

6 Fetch
12 Island

hi Anwar, welcome to the thread. Ima try to explain myself, Candelabra is great when you have it in your opening 7 no doubt. It is fine playing it in early turns while using the excess mana to cantrip for pieces (or land) or protect spells from daze. I prefer this line of play than drawing double Candelabras early and not being able to cast a second copy because I can't protect my spells from daze or I have to cantrip for combo pieces, aside from it not being able to pitch for Force of Will. In testing, it didn't matter whether Candelabra resolved or not. But once I am able to spiral away (thanks to Turnabout), drawing extra Candelabras gets better because of the already insane mana available. However, I don't find it as efficient as Turnabouts which only require 4 to untap all lands. With Candelabra you need :1: to cast it and extra :1: for any land beyond 4, costing :5: to untap 4 lands, aside from the fact it is also non-tutorable. I have 11 untappers in my list (4 TS/4 TA/3CoT) which I believe is optimum. Mind Over Matter is powerful but too costly at 6, and needs to be compensated by Candelabras for it be more efficient than Turnabouts. It is also non-tutorable and that is why I see Mind Over Matter as deadweight in the deck without draw effects. Cunning Wish on the other hand, is there to fetch Toils of Night and Day in my sb and untap an Island+Candelabra, jyst in case I don't draw Turnabout or Scroll post spiral. I guess that's mainly it.

@ddt15, MisD looks fine in your list, but not in lists that play Emrakul where Pacts can protect him as long as they `Tide on upkeep.

btw, congrats to Scatman X and egosum for the finish. Thank you for making heads spin and prove that Tide can be competitive. Good luck to all aspiring to do the same and I wish you get more of those 'Uh-ohs..:eek:'

Quote:

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Originally Posted by death

hi Anwar, welcome to the thread. Ima try to explain myself, Candelabra is great when you have it in your opening 7 no doubt. It is fine playing it in early turns while using the excess mana to cantrip for pieces (or land) or protect spells from daze. I prefer this line of play than drawing double Candelabras early and not being able to cast a second copy because I can't protect my spells from daze or I have to cantrip for combo pieces, aside from it not being able to pitch for Force of Will. In testing, it didn't matter whether Candelabra resolved or not. But once I am able to spiral away (thanks to Turnabout), drawing extra Candelabras gets better because of the already insane mana available. However, I don't find it as efficient as Turnabouts which only require 4 to untap all lands. With Candelabra you need :1: to cast it and extra :1: for any land beyond 4, costing :5: to untap 4 lands, aside from the fact it is also non-tutorable. I have 11 untappers in my list (4 TS/4 TA/3CoT) which I believe is optimum. Mind Over Matter is powerful but too costly at 6, and needs to be compensated by Candelabras for it be more efficient than Turnabouts. It is also non-tutorable and that is why I see Mind Over Matter as deadweight in the deck without draw effects. Cunning Wish on the other hand, is there to fetch Toils of Night and Day in my sb and untap an Island+Candelabra, jyst in case I don't draw Turnabout or Scroll post spiral. I guess that's mainly it.

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I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. I always opt to play cantrips in early turns over playing a Candelabra so there should be no tension there at all. My current list is playing 10 cantrips and 4 Merchant Scrolls all of which are a priority in the early turns of a game. Also I'm not sure what you mean by protecting your spells from Daze. My general approach is to play spells into Daze every turn except the turn that I'm trying to go off. I think you are underrating MoM in the deck as a 2 of it rarely finds itself in your opening hand, but drawn in the mid-stream go-off it can simply win the game on the spot.

To oversimplify, playing with 4 increases the chance of opening with multiples. Against blue decks, my approach is to save the mana to pay for `catcher or Daze to protect my cantrips/tutors and find land, combo pieces, or protection which is more important than landing a second Candelabra that doesn't improve the outcome of the game (and doesn't pitch to Force). As I've said I have 4 Turnabouts/3 Candelabras/3 Cunning Wish, not counting the 3 Spirals left post spiral, drawing any of these already wins games without the need for Mind Over Matter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by death

To oversimplify, playing with 4 increases the chance of opening with multiples. Against blue decks, my approach is to save the mana to pay for `catcher or Daze to protect my cantrips/tutors and find land, combo pieces, or protection which is more important than landing a second Candelabra that doesn't improve the outcome of the game (and doesn't pitch to Force). As I've said I have 4 Turnabouts/3 Candelabras/3 Cunning Wish, not counting the 3 Spirals left post spiral, drawing any of these already wins games without the need for Mind Over Matter.

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In general unless I'm playing against an aggro deck, I'll try to avoid playing a Candelabra because I'm not sure if my opponent has any way to remove it. Drawing a second Candelabra isn't much different than drawing a second Turnabout, both untap your lands. Its true that Turnabout pitches to Force of Will, but with 30+ cards that are blue I'm sure its okay to run a non-blue untap effect without worrying that it doesn't pitch to Force of Will. Drawing two Turnabouts in your opening isn't much better, but you are playing 4 of them. Playing 4 Turnabouts seems fine to me, but I prefer to be able to wish for Turnabout. Is it just possible that you could just change your configuration to 3 Turnabout main, 1 sideboard, and 4 Candelabra in the main. That would give you the same untap spells but give you access to Turnabout via Cunning Wish. I don't see the drawback to that configuration.

Turnabout>Candelabra. Extra Turnabouts can fog an attack or 'sink' all opponent's mana pre-combo. Having extra blue cards like double cantrips/tutor/protection/spiral/wish/tide is better than double Candelabras, especially against discard. I have a 5th Turnabout in my sideboard in the form of Toils of Night and Day which can untap an Island+Candelabra, and also there is Snap.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by death

Turnabout>Candelabra. Extra Turnabouts can fog an attack or 'sink' all opponent's mana pre-combo. Having extra blue cards like double cantrips/tutor/protection/spiral/wish/tide is better than double Candelabras, especially against discard. I have a 5th Turnabout in my sideboard in the form of Toils of Night and Day which can untap an Island+Candelabra, and also there is Snap.

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The primary purpose of both Candelabra and Turnabout is to untap lands. While its true that Turnabout has some other uses, its primary function is to untap your lands. Candelabra can cost less than Turnabout, ie you can untap 2 lands for 3 mana and it can ramp up and down sometimes costing more than a Turnabout and sometimes less. I think you'll want to Wish for Turnabout more than you'll ever want to Wish for Toils of Night and Day, which without Candelabra only untaps two lands for 3 mana (and is less likely to untap a Candelabra in your build). I think you are considering some of the other uses of Turnabout to justify its inclusion over the 4th Candelabra, but its primary function makes the 4th Candelabra invaluable and gives your sideboard more power by actually having another Turnabout there as well. I'm only belaboring the point because I think this is the correct configuration for the deck with Candelabras.

I have a question about the side: how does it perform without Blue Elemental Blasts?
I assume that against ReB the decks is at disasvantage since it's an hard counter at R against everything in the deck. Shouldn't the side contains some BeB?

I play 2 Cunning Wish, 1 Intuition and 4 Merchant Scroll MD and, at the moment, this is the side:
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Pact of Negation
1 Brain Freeze (0 MD)
1 Stroke of Genius (1 another in MD)
1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's recall
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Spell Pierce

I have the feeling that it lacks something, but I really can't figure out the right configuration, mostly because I haven't tested much and I don't know exactly what kills this deck (I suppose BeB and CotV are some good hate).

Can you help me optimize my SB? The meta I'll be playing contains many Big Zoo, Rock, some merfolk and Countertop bant, plus many other archetypes, although in little numbers.

Thank you in advance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kingtk3

I have a question about the side: how does it perform without Blue Elemental Blasts?
I assume that against ReB the decks is at disasvantage since it's an hard counter at R against everything in the deck. Shouldn't the side contains some BeB?

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No need.
Dispel seems to be better than BeB in too many matchups.
Also, people usually save ReB for the combo turn, so Pact of Negation is very good too.

More successful results. Congrats to the Yannick!

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...3&iddeck=39850

Greetings,

Iñaki.-