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Damnit, you beat me to it. Geez, IBA is such a nubcake ^^. Anyhoo, why has this thread transformed into an answer-taco's-list-and-flex-your-epeen-thread? And yes, that's a retorical question: please, do NOT answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Jace, The Mind-Sculptor of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
I know you said Vendilion Clique...but I would challenge that with Green Sun's Zenith into Tarmogoyf, lol. In all seriousness, Clique isn't better than Terravore IMHO.Quote:
2. What's the best single-colored 3-CMC creature in Legacy?
Burning Wish IMHO...it allows for broken early wins from TES. I know some will say Intuition, but I think Burning Wish is at least 2nd place or tied for 1st.Quote:
3. What's the best tutor in Legacy?
Some may disagree with me, but it depends on what you want: Sensei's Divining Top is reusable, but Brainstorm is an instant. If you say best card filtration CARD, I say SDT. If you say SPELL, I say Brainstorm.Quote:
4. What's the best card filtration spell in Legacy?
I would challenge that Thoughtsieze/Inquisition of Kozilek/Hymn to Tourach are just as powerful as Force of Will/Daze/Mental Misstep...only in a proactive way rather than reactive. Some may disagree, but I would put counterspells in the 'control' category...not the disruption category.Quote:
5. What's the best disruption package in Legacy?
Knight of the Reliquary and Dark Confidant...both have relivant abilities other than just a big ass like Goyf/Stalker. Knight of the Reliquary is impressively good, fetching hate and utility lands, feeding Steppe Lynx, all the while making herself bigger. Bob is bob...awesome with tops, great for card advantage, and supports great strategies like Team America, The Gate, Eva-Green, and Deadguy Ale.Quote:
6. What are the two best creatures in Legacy?
That's my take on it...I actually really like legacy right now...seems pretty well in check (I won't repeat the whole priniciple of Force holding combo in check but aggro decks holding Force decks in check.)
As of today?
1. What's the best Planeswalker in Legacy/any Format?
Jace is clearly putting up the best results of any.
2. What's the best single-colored 3-CMC creature in Legacy?
Right now I would say Merrow Reejery and Clique are close.
3. What's the best tutor in Legacy?
Good call, IBA. Natural Order search is the best one currently and I think GSZ is 2nd.
4. What's the best card filtration spell in Legacy?
Brainstorm. It puts back cards.
5. What's the best disruption package in Legacy?
Misstep/FoW
6. What are the two best creatures in Legacy?
I can't really say since there are so many, but the list would have Goyf, Stoneforge,Bob and Lord of Atlantis on top.
You mean 2U All non-basic lands are islands?Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeggi
oh dear lord.
You mean 2U All non-basic lands are islands?Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeggi
oh dear lord.
That actually sounds pretty weak, since many opponents can cast a lot of their spells off of Islands. The good thing about Magus of the Moon is that most opponents don't have a lot of red spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
That actually sounds pretty weak, since many opponents can cast a lot of their spells off of Islands. The good thing about Magus of the Moon is that most opponents don't have a lot of red spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
We're talking about how busted blue is, and you say this made-up card wouldn't continue the trend because people can use islands to play their spells? You know who can't use islands to play their spells? EVERY COLOR EXCEPT BLUEQuote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Not only would this hose any multicolored non-blue strategy (goyf, rock, etc.) but the blue player would have multiple counters to deal with the stp's that the magus usually eats.
Also, the only spells that can win the game that can be played solely off islands are jace and clique. Everything else requires a blue dual or needs to be fetched by a fetchland, both of which are now islands.
You guys know about Standard ? Top8s in that format are often composed of 5+ of the same decks, and in this moment, it can be 8 copies of Caw Blade, meaning all BLUE dominant decks, with 4 Jaces... And all control decks.
Do you see Standard players shouting for bans, asking that blue is a problem ? That control is unfair ?
Well, not me.
Blue is fine, leave it alone. I don't really want to live in a format of Dredge, Belcher, Combo Elves, Spanish Inquisition, ANT and TES. Blue's what keeps this format a real format, or just alive, actually.
Man, I love this thread.
1. JaceQuote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
2. Master of Etherium (maybe not yet, but he'll get there)
3. Blue Fetchlands!
4. Brainstorm
5. FOW + MM
6. Splashable
Lol, guess whose side I'm on...
I'll answer your questions, but you need to answer mine later ok tacotaco?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
1. Jace
2. Tombstalker delving 5 (this answers your question without being a smart-alec)
3. Enlightened Tutor, easy (just not played enough).
4. Brainstorm
5. Some say FoW + 21 blue cards, other say Turn 1 Chalice/Trinisphere, not sure what a disruption package is.
6. Bob and his Mom.
My questions for you now:
1. What's the best Sorcery in Legacy/Format?
2. What's the best tri-colored 2-CMC creature in Legacy? Ok that was a joke you can't name a tri-colored 2-CMC creature unless you're into hybrid mana. What about What's the best 2-colored 3-CMC creature in Legacy?
3. What's the best tutor in Legacy?
4. What's the best card discard spell in Legacy?
5. What's the best creature package in Legacy?
6. What are the two best creatures in Legacy?
Taco's questions were just begging for people to go "nuh-uh" and name some pet cards as being format-dominant. But the real problem is most of those questions don't really matter. Who cares what the best 3 cmc monocolor creature is? It's not like that is a metric that matters.
Frankly, all you have to do is go through the last few SCG opens and look at each deck in the top 16. SCG does this real helpful thing where they show the deck as a pie chart by color.
I'm going to guess most of you know what's tearing up those pie charts.
Because it's good game design. Surprising as it may be, there are people out there who would like to compete with different playstyles. While not everything can be competitive, that's not an excuse for failing this badly at balancing the pie.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
And here's a more practical reason. So that people don't have to all own 4x FoW + 4x Jace + sets of blue duals to be truly competitive instead of piloting some tier 2 decks and praying. The card pool is small enough as it is.
Frankly you could own all the non-blue duals, all non-blue format staples and you will still be stuck piloting a second-class citizen of a deck. Real good for the health of the format, right- and that's just from a card availability perspective. It sure would be bad for the format if you could build more of the best decks with all the other colors, eh?
In what given month? I mean we started off the year with people complaining that Goblins was too good.Quote:
Originally Posted by FieryBalrog
Let's look at SCG Opens.
In the past year, there have been 13 SCG Opens, with 104 top 8s.
37 of those decks ran absolutely no blue, at least filtering out for blue duals, Brainstorm, Force, Seat of the Synod and Dredge.
That's more than 60%, which sounds like a lot, except that Legacy is mostly 3 colors and 50% of the 3 color combinations will have any given color in it. For blue to be best is one thing, but 60% penetration doesn't necessarily suggest dominance.
For contrast;
51 decks contained no green
52 decks contained no black
60 decks contained no white
77 (!!) contained no red
So we see first of all that more than half the format is, on average, running blue, green, and black, and white isn't very far behind.
On the other hand, actually winning lists run;
1 white (!?!)
4 black
5 green
5 red
11 blue
Which is a much more compelling argument.
Well said. I didn't think about the economical implications of this, but they're pretty important too.Quote:
Originally Posted by FieryBalrog
I really like Blue. I really do. It's important for the health of the format, since Blue is the color that tends to keep all the unfair things in check. I don't want Brainstorm to be banned or any other Blue spell. I would like Red to be brought up to par with the other colors.
Let me put it a different way, have you ever drafted the core sets? How often do you play Red as your main color?
...
Yeah... that's what I thought. The color is so low on playables that is almost always relegated to splashing. This isn't proof that Red is mega terrible but I do think it is a symptom of a larger problem. Red's creatures are almost always worse than the other 4 colors, its non-burn spells are mostly unplayable. Red has shallow, boring mechanics. The problem is only compounded when you get to Constructed because stuff like Canyon Minotaur and Fireball are not respectable in 60 card decks.
Wow. I somehow hijacked this thread with one post and turned it into opinionfest.
I'll concede two things from my original post. One is that Natural Order might be as good as Intuition, though more narrow. Two is that Sensei's Divining Top might be on par with Brainstorm. I'd still personally take Brainstorm just for being amazing against Hymn and less of a mana soaker, though, and I'd argue Intuition's more versatile and shows up in way more decks. Intuition gets -anything-. Natural Order gets usually one of two different guys (Who, I'll admit, are very often more than enough to solve whatever problems are at hand.)
Secondly, fine, let's edit out the "single color" part of the best 3cmc creature. Now your order goes Knight of the Reliquary, who is a once in a lifetime creature, and then Vendilion Clique. Clique is absurd. If I had to rank the creatures of magic, I'd rank it fourth right now, several spots above Tarmogoyf. In a godlike metagame, Magus of the Moon might outshine them, but in a vacuum, it doesn't. I'd put it battling for third with Eternal Witness and Mirran Crusader.
Of the best objections to my post, FieryBalrog probably has the best one. Some of those questions may not matter in and of themselves. But the questions were just there to illustrate a point. Which was simply that, in the last few years, Blue has gotten a better slice of the pie for Legacy than any other color, and Red's gotten the shaft. I stand by this point.
Blue is immeasurably the strongest color in Legacy right now. It's stronger in Legacy right now than any color has been at any point in the history of the format, Flash era included. It can do everything there is to do in Legacy either better than every other color or at the worst, pretty well.
The problem is, and this is the first time I've probably ever said this, is that I don't know what the best fix is. I don't know that you can ban a card from blue's arsenal without making the format equally bad. I don't know that blue has one specific card that's put it out of control. What can you hit? Force? The format would be frightening. It might still actually function well with Mental Misstep in existence, but I just can't believe no Force is a good idea. Misstep? Then we get the year of combo all over again. Daze? Maybe. This makes Blue less stupid when they go first. But I don't see it doing enough. Jace? Doesn't solve the protection engine itself. Brainstorm? Something else?
(Also, to IBA: Since I think you were the only person who posted who thinks Jace isn't Legacy's best planeswalker and I know you better than to think I'll change your mind, my counterargument is simply this: Your choice still requires blue.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amon Amarth
Now this is something I can get behind. I also mostly play blue and I have most of the cards you need to build any of blue's decks in Legacy, from heavy control to stuff like Bant Aggro and from Team America to TES and ANT. The red cards I play are Grim Lavamancer, Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Fire // Ice, Burning Wish, Empty The Warrens and blasts. Even if you include Zoo which I play form time to time as well this only adds Fireblast and Price Of Progress.
This is about as many cards as the countermagic I can choose from (and actually use) when playing blue. And then there's all the other awesome stuff blue can do.
The problem with this statement is that blue/force deck can easily beat aggro whereas combo is impos for aggro and blue deck are impos for combo. Except if combo run force.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
Agreed on the problem with red, and it's not limited to Legacy. The color is just far too one-dimensional as it is. Other than Goblins and splashable utility cards (REB, Lavamancer, burn) the color has nothing going for it but pure aggression and even then Green and White cheap creatures outclass it. Red needs some additional flexible abilities added to its part of the color pie. Red Planeswalkers even illustrate this - their abilities all resemble each others and the only good one (outside of Legacy) is another hyperaggressive card. Not sure what that could be, hopefully WotC comes up with something. Adapting red creatures to the powercreep seen in every other color in ways different from Goblin Guide (ridiculously aggressive but sucks after turn 2) would probably be a good start (and make Zoo quite insane). At that point you get into trouble infringing on green's part of the colorpie, I guess.
Green and White had this problem before but it was slightly fixed by making it green the "Disenchant" color and awesome quasi-modal spells like Fauna Shaman, Beast Within and GSZ move it in the right direction while white got a ton of flexible threats/answers (SFM, ORing, Squawk, hatebears, etc). Also, the combination of the two is getting sweeter all the time (KotR, Pridemage, Teeg).
Red needs a similar treatment. In this context, Bloodbraid Elf was probably a step in the right direction just not cheap enough to be Legacy-relevant.
As for blue being the best at everything, not true. It only appears that way because the dual-fetch manabases make splashing so devilishly easy.