Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Well, I played TES in my local tourney last night. Pretty much Bryant's list, but I still don't run the 2nd Ad Nauseam. I know everyone says it's better with 2, but far too often I would die to flipping it during the 1st one. I didn't like that, so I cut it. I prefer to cast Infernal Tutor to go get the Ad Nauseam. Maybe it's just my playstyle but I'm more comfortable with that route and tend to have better outcomes. I know, I know, the numbers prove me wrong. Just saying, my playstyle works better with just the single copy of Ad Nauseam.
So we went 5 rounds, I never lost a single game all night, I combo'ed off on turn 1 twice. The matchups were - 1x random deck, 2x RDW, 1 Affinity & 1x Elfball.
I need to work on my sideboard some more, I know I'm lacking there. Just got the Inquisition of Kozilek last night so I didn't have those before, plus I need to adjust some other stuff. Was only my second time playing the deck in a tourney, so I'm by no means a "pro pilot". But I think I got it done. :cool:
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dillonkbase
You are probably right for a general matchup, but since he was at one life and tapped out(no chants or silences) and I had ToA in hand with 4 mana I thought it was fine.
I would have responded to the first dark ritual/rite of flame he cast off of petal, assuming he only had one petal with silence. Or was he terribly unlucky and didn't hit any chants/silences? Because if he hit one of those, responding to the petal is definitely wrong unless you have 4 mana in play without having to cast a ritual/a spell, because your opponent will probably not upkeep/draw step chant/silence you, enabling you to cast ToA for lethal with no storm :laugh:
Cunning wish into ad nauseam is EIGHT mana, just drawing the ad nauseam is FIVE mana. If you can't tell the difference, one might be getting cast on turn 3 while the other can get cast on turns 1-2 very easily.
Anyways, to everyone not running 2 ad nauseams, what are you running over it? EtW is terrible in this metagame of stoneforges and batterskulls galore. IGG hasn't been maindeck for years, and for good reason. Past in flames requires more setup generally, unless you just draw a bunch of rite of flames and or dark rit's in your opener and not artifact mana.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
leegoo
your opening 7 is gemstone mine, petal, dark ritual, rite of flame, cunning wish, chrome mox, polluted delta
:confused:
Lay down artifacts turn 1 (imprint Rite of Flame), Cunning Wish EOT, Ad Nauseam turn 2 (off of Dark Ritual). I don't get your point. That does not argue for versatility.
Before 2 Ad Nauseams were standard, the deck did fine with just 1. Not to mention this adds versatility by being able to bring in removal/protection/win-con mid/late game. The deck kills fast, there's no doubt about it, but it can do that with 1 or 2 Ad Nauseams.
If you are talking about awkward situations, then Infernal Tutor has a lot of awkward situations that it can put you in, but you don't not (yes, it's double negative, try to read through it) run it because it might screw you over. So your one example where Cunning Wish is a LITTLE slower, isn't a valid argument to not run it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dark Ritual
Cunning wish into ad nauseam is EIGHT mana, just drawing the ad nauseam is FIVE mana. If you can't tell the difference, one might be getting cast on turn 3 while the other can get cast on turns 1-2 very easily.
1. You don't have to Cunning Wish on the combo turn (it can be the turn before)
2. You don't have to Cunning Wish on your turn (it's an instant)
3. You can use LED with Cunning Wish.
Anymore questions? Again, not a point for versatility, you are arguing for efficiency. Yes, I can count to EIGHT. Yes, I know it's different and more than FIVE. Can you see that Ad Nauseam is ONE card? Can you see that Cunning Wish can be ONE of FIFTEEN cards?
Ok, here is why speed is NOT an argument for the second Ad Nauseam over Cunning Wish. I admit, that straight casting Ad Nauseam is faster (see I can count), but Cunning Wish adds answers and versatility, which is better in the long game. What this means is (although it doesn't screw over your good match ups because in those match ups a turn or 2 isn't going to make a difference) it significantly helps your bad match ups by adding answers to your game 1 and your dire situations. It doesn't take Ad Nauseam's power away as it retains the main deck Ad Nauseam as well as adds a sideboard Ad Nauseam.
It can find mana, protection, it can find removal and it can find win-con. It's practically like we never lost Mystical Tutor. I think going back up to 9 tutors would be huge for this deck. Also, the 2 life matter significantly, as 2 life can mean flipping over 2-5 more cards (not sure about this, just estimated through experience)
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
When Bryant say's "I swapped inquisition for pyroblasts" I think to myself "hmm... he must have tried this out." at which point I DON'T remove my pyroblasts and replace them... from that point forward I dictate that they are "either/or" and I see how many occasions I would bring them in. Same thing with Virtue's Ruin > Infest. My gut said VR was better, but I tried it the other way... and decided that Infest was correct.
So, let's try a different angle going forward. Just saying "Cunning wish seems good." and then arguing for it (there was a cunning wish variant of ANT - either here or in the storm boards forums - that was tried... it was cute but pretty bad - cunning wish slows the deck down by about a turn usually, sometimes more... so I'm not just saying this from the dark.) doesn't bring people to your side. What about Burning Wish? How is your sideboard going to be built now? Are you just cutting 1x AdN for 1x CW? These are all important questions.
Maybe there is a cunning wish Ad Nauseam deck out there that nobody has caught on to... build one, try it out, post the list, hell I'll try any storm list once... but bring something more than "it's like we never lost mystical tutor"
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
leegoo
When Bryant say's "I swapped inquisition for pyroblasts" I think to myself "hmm... he must have tried this out." at which point I DON'T remove my pyroblasts and replace them... from that point forward I dictate that they are "either/or" and I see how many occasions I would bring them in. Same thing with Virtue's Ruin > Infest. My gut said VR was better, but I tried it the other way... and decided that Infest was correct.
So, let's try a different angle going forward. Just saying "Cunning wish seems good." and then arguing for it (there was a cunning wish variant of ANT - either here or in the storm boards forums - that was tried... it was cute but pretty bad - cunning wish slows the deck down by about a turn usually, sometimes more... so I'm not just saying this from the dark.) doesn't bring people to your side. What about Burning Wish? How is your sideboard going to be built now? Are you just cutting 1x AdN for 1x CW? These are all important questions.
Maybe there is a cunning wish Ad Nauseam deck out there that nobody has caught on to... build one, try it out, post the list, hell I'll try any storm list once... but bring something more than "it's like we never lost mystical tutor"
I think the reason why Cunning Wish didn't work in ANT is because they tried to make a deck built on Cunning Wish as a main tutor. This is not the case here. Cunning Wish will only replace the 1x Ad Nauseam as Mystical Tutor often got sided out by Bryant anyway.
To be honest, I think you should play Virtue's Ruin if you feel it's better for your metagame. I think Bryant's deck only applies to his metagame where he would need to sweep elves or goblins. If you have to sweep Ionas or Progenitus, I'm sure Virtue's Ruin is the better choice. I say go with your gut feeling. I think your attitude towards the deck you play is why people hate those who "net deck". I admit, that I'm guilty here as well, but given the opportunity to innovate and adapt, I do that, but I digress.
Yes, I already admitted it would be slightly slower, but I feel that having it instead of the 2nd Ad Nauseam might add more power and versatility to the already fast, power and versatile T.E.S. It will not slow it down as significantly as that ANT list as this deck will retain its Burning Wishes. Burning Wish will still be the Main Wish. The only difference here that I can see will be this:
MD
2nd Ad Nauseam = Cunning Wish
SB
Diminishing Returns = 2nd Ad Nauseam
4th Inquisition of Koselik = Silence
That's what I'm testing right now. I kind of want to fit a mana source in there, but I haven't needed to Wish for it yet.
PS: Your condescending quote adds nothing to the discussion and was unnecessary.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
How did double happen? oops sorry.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
What it really comes down to is:
Is the speed you give up by playing Cunning Wish over AN#2 compensated by the ability to wish for Silence or a bounce spell and randomly use LED to cast AN (thus compensating the extra 3 mana and not giving you an advantage over plain AN)
I think the answer to that is no.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
This is crazy....
Cunning Wish is not good. And it makes less sense based if you are trying not to kill yourself. If you play two AN and you cast one, you have one left to hit. If you cunning wish for AN, you still have one left to hit. The only instance it is "better" in is if you naturally draw AN, which is now half as likely.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
How many cards do you guys typically draw with AdN? It's fun to draw out and Grapeshot for 20 but 95% of the time, unnecessary. By the time I play AdN I typically have storm count = 3-5 anyway.
To the more dedicated storm players, how many times have you drawn AdN off AdN and still won?
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Oiolosse
How many cards do you guys typically draw with AdN? It's fun to draw out and Grapeshot for 20 but 95% of the time, unnecessary. By the time I play AdN I typically have storm count = 3-5 anyway.
To the more dedicated storm players, how many times have you drawn AdN off AdN and still won?
If you Adn from 20~17 life flipping the second one don't hurt you, things became complicated when you Adn with ~12 life, also if you have a tutor or LED in hand is much better since you just need some rituals/petals and LED or IT/BW.
At my last event I Adn from 18 and could not kill my opp, so I passed the turn and killed him when he passed back, since it was a T2 Adn on play he had no pressure on board so many times if your Adn fails you can just pass and kill next turn.
I would say that at least once per tournament(6 rounds + Top8)your Adn from 20~17 life will screw you(not necessary kill you).. but remember there are times when your Adn from ~6 life save you.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Oiolosse
How many cards do you guys typically draw with AdN? It's fun to draw out and Grapeshot for 20 but 95% of the time, unnecessary. By the time I play AdN I typically have storm count = 3-5 anyway.
To the more dedicated storm players, how many times have you drawn AdN off AdN and still won?
Depends on what I'm playing against. :wink:
I have yet to pull off the Grapeshot deal and have yet to be in a position where I thought it was worth going for, so I'll skip that one. Typically for me, I'll Ad Nauseam down to 3, 4 or sometimes 2. It all depends on what I flipped over and what I know is left in the deck. I only run the single Ad Nauseam so I'm not going to Ad Nauseam into another one. But I always take a good look at what I've flipped and think about what is left and the odds of what you will flip next when deciding how far to go. Plus, if you're facing burn and they have mana open and I haven't Silenced them yet, you need to leave room for a last ditch Shock or something too. So it's pretty situational. Having Silenced them, I'll go down to 1 or 2 without blinking an eye if I know I'm safe. I like to get as much as I can out of that Ad Nauseam. Plus I like to watch them when they think I'm going to kill myself. :cool:
There have also been times where I could have showboated a bit more but chose to just win and get on with life too. Nobody loves a sore winner. :tongue:
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
leegoo
your opening 7 is gemstone mine, petal, dark ritual, rite of flame, cunning wish, chrome mox, polluted delta
:confused:
I thought of a sample hand to counter:
LED, LED, Ad Nauseam, Land, Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Orim's Chant :confused:
You simply cannot argue for a point with example hands in a very specific situation that might be able to kill turn one, but don't. Just because you COULD turn 1 them with an Ad Nauseam in your example hand, I can Ad Nauseam with a turn 1 with my sample hand and neither justifies the card that we are advocating.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jjjoness'
What it really comes down to is:
Is the speed you give up by playing Cunning Wish over AN#2 compensated by the ability to wish for Silence or a bounce spell and randomly use LED to cast AN (thus compensating the extra 3 mana and not giving you an advantage over plain AN)
I think the answer to that is no.
Why do you think not?
The same argument can be made for Infernal Tutor. Why don't you cut Infernal Tutor #4 for 3rd Ad Nauseam. Then you can Ad Nauseam as often as you'd like as early as you'd like. Does the speed justify the advantages there? I think your answer is yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dillonkbase
This is crazy....
Cunning Wish is not good. And it makes less sense based if you are trying not to kill yourself. If you play two AN and you cast one, you have one left to hit. If you cunning wish for AN, you still have one left to hit. The only instance it is "better" in is if you naturally draw AN, which is now half as likely.
The sole reason isn't life, that is partially a reason. The main reason is versatility.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Oiolosse
How many cards do you guys typically draw with AdN? It's fun to draw out and Grapeshot for 20 but 95% of the time, unnecessary. By the time I play AdN I typically have storm count = 3-5 anyway.
To the more dedicated storm players, how many times have you drawn AdN off AdN and still won?
I typically have 7 storm after ad nauseam resolves (I play against a lot of blue), so I don't really need to draw that many. I've drawn Ad Nauseam a lot since I changed to the 2 Ad Nauseam list, so I've been having to Brainstorm/Ponder my way to win. Which isn't bad, just more annoying.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jin
I've drawn Ad Nauseam a lot since I changed to the 2 Ad Nauseam list, so I've been having to Brainstorm/Ponder my way to win. Which isn't bad, just more annoying.
I don't understand how this is annoying, especially as if it resolves, you generally win the game. Naturally drawing AN is generally pretty awesome, it is the reason you would play two. As for versatility, prevention is the best cure to a problem, so wining is better than mucking around looking for an answer.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dillonkbase
I don't understand how this is annoying, especially as if it resolves, you generally win the game. Naturally drawing AN is generally pretty awesome, it is the reason you would play two. As for versatility, prevention is the best cure to a problem, so wining is better than mucking around looking for an answer.
Cunning Wish doesn't stop you from Winning.
It's annoying because Ad Nauseam doesn't get there. I have to work at it with cantrips. If I had a little more life, I could go a little deeper.
Ad Nauseam is a really powerful storm engine, but my early impressions of this deck was that it can attack from multiple angles. Playing 2 Ad Nauseams is fine, I'm just looking to diversify. I'm starting to think all of the old ANT players are coming here looking for ANT again because it seems that ANT is the new IGGy Pop (just not fast enough).
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Oiolosse
To the more dedicated storm players, how many times have you drawn AdN off AdN and still won?
Every time.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Just done got back from a weekly at my store with Bryant's suggested config; went 3-1. There were times were I Wished for a discard effect and wished that it were Duress because of an opponent's Force, but I always ended up finding a Chant or a Duress to go in tandem with IoK before going off, so yeah, Bryant's probably right. Never had to wish for Infest; 'twas awkward against Reanimator when I had BW up against no opposing countermagic and an Iona on black (ended up grabbing and eventually casting Diminishing Returns into eighteen Goblins while I was at eight and the opponent was at eighteen, thereby forcing Iona to have to block, but it was to no avail as my opponent drew Entomb ->Elesh Norn+Exhume).
Changes I'm 100% sold on: IoK over Pyroblast in the three free disruption slots in the sideboard.
Changes I'm not entirely sold on, but were definitely good enough to keep testing with and will likely prove themselves shortly: the fourth IoK over Duress (pretty confident Thoughtseize isn't needed).
Slots that need more testing before I come to any sort of conclusion: Infest (over Silent Departure/Pyroclasm/Virtue's Ruin), Grapeshot if also playing Infest/Pyroclasm/Virtue's Ruin (over Silent Departure/second Empty the Warrens), Wipe Away (over another bounce spell)
Echoing Truth is obviously still a subjective metagame choice over Chain of Vapor.
Also, the quantity of times flipping the second Ad Nauseam didn't matter and led to a win:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tammit67
Every time.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Oiolosse
How many cards do you guys typically draw with AdN.
Going off at 18 life, statistically you expect to see (very roughly) about 22 cards on average, assuming I did my estimates were reasonable and I did the arithmetic correctly.
In terms of actually resolving Ad Nauseam, I usually follow a pretty boring procedure: flip until it's not safe to flip any more, taking into consideration any Bolts or Fireblasts they might have, check to see if what I have is enough to win, then if necessary consider flipping some more or doing something like cracking LEDs with Ponder on the stack.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
thefringthing
In terms of actually resolving Ad Nauseam, I usually follow a pretty boring procedure: flip until it's not safe to flip any more, taking into consideration any Bolts or Fireblasts they might have, check to see if what I have is enough to win, then if necessary consider flipping some more or doing something like cracking LEDs with Ponder on the stack.
Really? I only flip what I need. I'd rather not flip down and reveal the whole deck if I can help it. I see if I have enough with each new card instead of stopping around 7 life or whatever cutoff you have set in your head.
Also is a good thought exercise.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Oiolosse
To the more dedicated storm players, how many times have you drawn AdN off AdN and still won?
I've won off an ad nauseam at at a relatively low life total while flipping an ad nauseam. The decks curve is so low you won't fizzle hitting ad nauseam unless you are 9 or so with zero mana floating, which is very unlikely. Now that I think about it winning from 10 is common with this deck... It's the reason I love this deck so much.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
thefringthing
Going off at 18 life, statistically you expect to see (very roughly) about 22 cards on average, assuming I did my estimates were reasonable and I did the arithmetic correctly.
In terms of actually resolving Ad Nauseam, I usually follow a pretty boring procedure: flip until it's not safe to flip any more, taking into consideration any Bolts or Fireblasts they might have, check to see if what I have is enough to win, then if necessary consider flipping some more or doing something like cracking LEDs with Ponder on the stack.
This is simply bad. The reason is because you are playing Infernal Tutors, so if you draw an early infernal Tutor, or have it in your hand when resolving Ad Nauseam, you either need to draw cards you can play (or a LED, and LED does not always happen to appear), flipping to the deadline may give you just too many lands or too many blue cards (with not enough blue mana). Summing up, what I mean, it that flipping (with at least 16 life) until you can't flip anymore may win most of times, but not always, just take this into consideration.
Greetings,
Iņaki.-
