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Hi Vuuyi,
well as you can read in the primer and in all the other decklists posted the main difference to your list is that we play BUG to play discard and you chose to play counter top. Standstill is also never used in BUG control, since there are better sources for card advantage and there is no space for manlands.
I suggest you try out one of the lists from the thread, because I think it is a more consistant gameplan overall or you try to find (or open) some sort of countertop thread.
None of the lists play like Deed/Still, though. If you're going to pick up a list from the thread, Vuuyi, consider that by large this deck wants to curve out with discard/counters and stick a threat that it rides all the way. That is the premise of the deck, so playing to that out should always be a part of the game plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
BUG control is a helluva deck. Not something one just picks up and crushes the competition. It's going to take months of tournaments and testing to get a real feel for it. Thanks to the printing of Snapcaster, there are just soooo many lines of play from turn one on. Experience is your only guide.
Just won a playset of lion's eye diamond at the end of a "league" in my local store, playing this deck. I Expected a lot of aggro'ish deck so the deck was built envisioning an aggro metagame. Here's what i played:
Name Qty Sideboard
Underground Sea 4
Polluted Delta 4
Verdant Catacombs 1
Wasteland 3
Bayou 2
Tropical Island 2
Misty Rainforest 4
Drowned Catacomb 1
Riptide Laboratory 1
Creeping Tar Pit 1
Snapcaster Mage 4
Tarmogoyf 4
Force of Will 4
Spell Snare 3
Brainstorm 4
Hymn to Tourach 4
Ghastly Demise 4
Jace, the Mind Sculptor 4
Diabolic Edict 2
Dismember 2
Ponder 2
Vendilion Clique 0 3
Leyline of the Void 0 4
Thoughtseize 0 4
Pernicious Deed 0 4
Rounds (no particular order it was a swiss tournament where everyone played between against each other):
Elves (2-0)
Bant (2-0)
Affinity (2-0)
Reanimator (2-0)
Bant (1-2)
Helm-Line Combo (1-2)
Merfolk (2-0)
My Loss against the combo player came from a mull to 5 and a T2 kill from him, and against Bant he got Loam + wasteland lock the turn before i played Jace. The rest was pretty much smooth sailing. This deck is the real deal...
Regards
I can definitely get behind those changes. Will need to try those out and test the heck out of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
Sorry I can't spew any knowledge into this thread; I am slowly learning the deck from everyone's views and comments to better myself with this deck.
Helo guys!
I notice this deck:
http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.ph...2&iddeck=53188
I know it isn't "classic" BUG control list, but this is the closest topic/deck to post it.
I really like idea about adding NO package into BUG shell, since the deck can play similar strategy like bant or RUG. Since i play decks like rock, bant, landstill, team america, i own all cards for this deck. So, i what do you think about this natural order build? The thing that most atracts me to NO Bug is additional discard and mass destruction plan alongside the classic UGx shell (filters, countermagic, removal, efficient creatures, mana ramp etc). The downside of the deck is spot removal which is not good like swords to plowshares (like any BUG deck list)
So, what's your opinion?
Hi,
it is basically NO RUG switching the RED for black. It is a new idea, so definitely worth opening a new thread in new and development decks or posting it in NO RUG. The deck is surely strong running only powerful cards, but I don't like it in a meta full of tempo decks, since the manabase is vulnerable.
I played NO Rug when MM was legal, but moved away from it since there is no good way to abuse snapcaster mage in that shell.
UGw and UGr decks has it's own versions for natural order, and i think that BUG decks deserve same atention. I will test deck theese days and i'll post results here.
Here an interesting tournament win of BUG in a 50 person tournament.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...4&iddeck=53448
It is going more in the direction of deedstill with no goyfs maindeck, but much more board control: 2 deed, 3 liliana + 1 Innocent Blood.
Playing only 3 hymn and 4 pointed discard is also kind of interesting.
He does not have the other 2 deeds in the SB which is just totally weird to me...
The 3 goyfs and 1 V-clique in the SB to help versus the combo matchup where a fast clock is important,
In general I do like the idea of having more board control maindeck (especially because Maverick HAS to be considered in Europe), but not having goyf is kind of strange. The snapcaster body seems pretty irrelevant...Also I would be afraid to run into timeouts too often. Does anyone like to test this or has experience with this approach?
__________________
Aside from that
What I do not like about BUG control is that it is very vulnerable to burn. If I go to my local tournament I am aware that I can have a loss in the early round versus some kid with a 50 dollar burn deck, however the recently successful U/R delver burn strategy has a much better matchup versus us than RUG Tempo and is a viable option for the experienced blue players.
Goblin Guide cannot be killed with ghastly demise eraly enough. Thoughtseize/Dismember is stupid. Price of progress ridicolous. Besides the nut draw including hymn/goyf/snare I don't see us having a shot versus burn strategies. Does anyone already have a good plan versus U/R burn or experience versus that deck?
Since I do not see any good answers in BUG I tested a bit implementing the same gamplean in BUW, where a SFM package replaces goyf. While this looks interesting in theory there is 1 BIG problem, which is the reason I think why none of the Esper builds showing up is running Hymn to tourach. In BUG green is a splash and you do everything in UB. In BUW black and white are equally important in the early game making you much more vulnerable to a single wasteland if you fetch Underground sea + Scrubland. It is a different story fetching Underground sea and Tundra (altough still 1 wasteland can cut 1 color), but then Hymn can't be supported.
What makes BUG's manabase more consistant and easy to play through wastelands is because as a default you go for Underground Sea's and only in desperate/bad situations for early green.
So no Esper for Hymn lovers I am afraid...Also in my testing I played incidentally a lot versus Affinity, Entchantress and Maverick making me miss deed so much that I dropped the idea of BUW control. :laugh:
I can atest to the burn MU results you've found, catmint. Sure, we can load the board up and play garbage like Chill or other color hosers. But what I've found is that tight play and winning the die roll goes a longer way towards helping the matchup than having a certain card or two in the 75. This accounts for straight Mono R burn, U/R delver burn, and one-drop Zoo/Sligh with their 12+ burn spells and Lavamen. The key to them beatung BUG control is to get in early damage with lil dudes and reach from the top deck with burn or more dudes. Deed always seemed a turn too late, even mroe so on the draw. We're just going to have to chalk this one up as an unfavorable MU, one of the few IMHO.
Removed. See down there \/
I did not play the bob build a lot, so I can't really contribute to this (there has been a very good discussion on the previous pages though). The biggest reason why I chose not to play bob is because I don't want to be proactive except for discard and become vulnerable to removal.
Some comments to your decklist:
- Daze is perfectly viable if confidant is the primary gameplan
- I would rather play wasteland than mishra in a deck that has access to life from the loam
- IMO: if you want to support hymn (MD or SB), you don't have the option to run basic lands. I also don't want to cut Hymn from the maindeck since this card is the main reason i play that deck.
- Snapcaster is the 2nd big reason i play the deck, so not cuttable IMO. Maybe you dont want to play 4 because of the antisynergy with daze.
- I like to test phantasmal image myself. 3 seems a lot though.
- 3 Ponder are not necessary IMO
- Unearth is very strong with confidant and snapcaster!
check out other successful confidant builds:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...5&iddeck=53811
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...8&iddeck=52889
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...8&iddeck=52889
Looking forward to your results!
Unearth is just nuts for matchups without Swords/Path. No one plays around it or with it in the back of their mind. It's purely a reset button, and something to abuse with ETB critters like Clique and Snappy. Even getting your Goyf back after a Deed is enough of a game plan to follow. Plus, in the tempo matchups it's a house. For one card it turns on all your threats and blanks their removal/counters. Run Reanimate if there's a lot of reanimator in your area for obvious reasons, otherwise, test out three between the sideboard and main to get a good feel for the card. Then decide if it's for your deck or not. Either way, you'll gain some nice perspective and probably pick up a new tool to help in lots of sticky situations.
First of all, thank a lot, I was waiting for the aswers ^^.
So... I've been playing against UR delver a LOT, because I think that if I can handle UR delver and UW-Blade, then I probabily can handle a large portion of the meta, since the strongest control and strongest tempo seens to be then both. I plan having a combo/grave hate sideboard, but I still didn't think enought about it.
And learned a few things.
Daze IS insane. Being able to cast a bob in turn 2 and keep him alive.... while (on the play) not having to force a first turn delver/lackey/vial or a 2nd turn stoneforger is just so important.
Also having daze holds down the opponents playing around it....that is just perfect for us... (a turn 3 stoneforger/goyf will easily be snared.) ...makes the game a lot easier.
Yes,sometimes I wish a had wastelands, but the mishra's are there for a some reasons. (Its helps in matchups when I need to go "agro" just countering and atacking... It also helps me in goyf wars (thats very important))... Still, sometimes I think that wastes and a loam in the sideboard could be better. But wastes without stifles doesn't look very awsome for me.
About Hymn... Was undoubtly one of the strongest cards of the deck, but, cause of mana intensiveness and tempo loss and my 2CMC slot being overload, I endup cuting it off. I also like having basics, for budgetary reasons, and for "being wasted" reasons.
Other reason is because of the tempo decks that I face... I fell that I can't "spend" my turn 2 casting a hymn (of course catmint, in your build (much more controlish, you have a lot of tools to regain control of the game, kinda a pure control BUG, mine is much more of a hybrid build) so, If I had hymns, would be 2, for when the opponent has only 3-4 cards in hand. Don't know if worth it. Also can't find room for it.
3 Images ARE a lot. I cuted for 2, With snapcasters and Unearth It gets even more insane... I won a game making "Unearth targeting Snapcaster .... Flashbacked Uneath targeting Image coping the snapcaster....Flashbacked Demise his delver"
Gametesting a lot I also realize that 3 ponders are to much (amazing as you guys kinda predict my changes)...
As I said, I realy think maybe wastes would be better, but with this build I often win by hiting with goyf+mishra while countering his aswers, so, by now, I rather mishra's... (still thinking about it)
So I changed. And that's what I've playing now.
//Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Phantasmal Image
2 Snapcaster Mage
//Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
2 Ponder
1 Go for the Throat
1 Unearth
//Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
//Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
3 Island
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
-----
What I like more about this build is how images and a lot of counters help you to uses opossite gameplans depending on the match.
Sometimes I will just Bob+(maybe image bob)+Protect bob+Aswer everything+Jace=Win.
Then the goyf turns a goyf staller, the discard hits stoneforgers and reliquarys, snares also help in board control, while bob gives me aswers to every single card... then comes jace, stoping my life loss and eventualy milling then for death.
And sometimes I will just Goyf+Image+Mishra+Suport atacks=Win.
Than my removal cleans path, discard hits his removals, snares hits his goyfs and casters, snap give more removal/unearth, jace bounces creatures and etc.
It can be agressive enoght to beat to death or race with creature+removals, but it can very easily assume a controlish position protecting jaces and bobs to win.
So... what are your opinions about it? :eyebrow: (And sorry for the english errors that might have o.o... I edited a hundred times to clean as much as i could xD)
Since I use daze, maybe I could cut snares for 2 hymns and +1 Inquistion/toughtsieze... but snares are SO good. I would hate cuting it. That 1 unearth is very important, think of it as a 4th goyf than can be snapcaster+removal.
Note: Images are VERY strong, cause it can copy not only goyfs/delvers/bobs but also legendary creatures to kill then. And I'had one day copied a mishra to gain one more land that can also beat or pump the another...It also can't be plowed, so it will always be a target for unearth/reanimate (however you won't gain life, I think).
But be careful on landing one with only one creature on the board without force for backup, because u can easily get two-for-oned
wasteland is very powerful even without stifle. It still can randomly decide games and there are very often some utility lands we need to get rid off.
lol @ snapcaster/unearth/image interaction. :)
it just sucks that there is so much swords out there.... makes unearth much worse... (still awesome though)
That's why (besides the room problems) that I just use one. I much like already lost at least one creature by combat when I draw unearth, even so, I can always cycle it and still gain value "snapcastering" it...Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
You find worth using 4 wastes for that random ocasions? Worth taking out mishras?
(not taking merit from it, the power of win a game by mana screw just cause you have a waste there is something desirable... also I can destroy his waste if tapped"...)
So Catmint, I only now saw your post about UR Burn Delver.
My best friend has it... the build with more burn actualy, and I get like 40/60 on pre-side (we play friendly and trying to improve each other plays so we almost never sideboarded)...
Besides that...my build its far from yours.
You are right when you say that demise don't kill guide the turn it lands, but guide also helps you neting lands. This may seens stupid, but realy helps, with a top or ponder, it is almost a bob for me. Anyway, the guide its not so much to worry, you can cast goyf soon in time, also you can protect him... the real problem is the delver in first turn.
I realize that my 40/60 are nothing more than the odds of him having delver in starter hand on the play. Its almost impossible to recover.
So? How to do it?
I assure you that deed helps a lot... All times that I won are something like: goyf to stop guide... or demise to stop delver... rarely both...
Then... you don't counter his goyfs... save snare for price of progress, it will worth it...
a couple turns latter you deed all the board.... Then lands a jace and keep "leveling him up" using fateseal (in him) garanting he never draws nothing that you can't handle... screwing his draws (yes, he fetches a lot to prevent this)...
Then win with jace.
I played with him A LOT when I used to have 2 deed MB and a much more controling build (like yours catmint)
The only gameplan that worked for beat him... and rug... was literary to trade everything you have for everything he has... again, save snare for price of progress... its kinda easy after you get stifled with a 3 or 4 land hand.
After both of you are in topdeck with a goyf each... most likely you will draw into jace to win the match... the same way I told before... fateseal him to screw his drawsand then mill him.
Its a very hard match, thats why I like to play it xD... also that's why I got into "tempo hybrid" build. For RUG and UR Delver.
Pos side I figure that the best you can do is to Extract his main threats. Mostly goyf and delver. He surprisely is almost unable to win without these.
(board out force)
Concerning wasteland:
I think the occasion where wastelands have a significant impact on the game happens quite regular. That and the fact that it wins you some games where the opponent has a bad draw is enough reason for me to run 4. I used to run 3 and 1 Riptide Laboratory, but I found the situation that you draw Riptide and keep using a snapcaster mage is very very rare, where just gettting good value from a wasteland is common.
The 1-2 Loam/4 Wasteland package is a really powerful thing to have in the mirror, against RUG Tempo, Punishing Fire decks, Esper, Junk,.... basically every deck that is attacking your resources and/or runs a 3 color manabase.
I never played with Mishra's and I can imagin they do some very good defensive and offensive work. However land drops are very important and I would not like to open the opponents lightning bolt up to become a stone rain just to block some creature. With wasteland you have the choice.. do you want a colorless land or trade with the opponent land (not with a cheap removal spell). Without standstill or Spellstutter for Mutuavault I don't see a reason to run manlands except for the random creeping tar pit, which is a UB dual and the ultra late game decided because of beeing unblockableö.
Concerning the U/R Burn Matchup.
If they run the Stifle Package odds go up!
As i posted in some previous posts I developed a game/boarding plan that is very successful versus RUG Tempo except they start like zoo in the first 1-3 turns (which is rarely the case). Versus monored burn the matchup is very bad.. Burn having blue cards makes the matchup better for us IMO but it is all about price of progress for me.
The optimal hand verus burn I would like to see is:
Land, Land, Inquisition, Goyf, Goyf, Hymn, Spell Snare
Without the early Goyf I find the matchup very hard to win, since they keep drawing business (also in the form of 1RR - 2 damage in your upkeep) and you don't have time for the Jace win.
Is it possible to play something of a "moderate" version of this deck style, between Stifle-Waste tempo and Jace control? I feel exactly that sort of deck would be excellent for my local metagame, which features numerous regulars but also many low-budget decks and/or monocolor decks. As far as blue decks go, tempo decks aren't seen often where I play, with Bant and Stoneblade being far more common.
Hence, I've come up with this list:
9 Fetches
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Go for the Throat
2 Smother
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Unearth
--- Sideboard ---
3 Spell Pierce
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Ghastly Demise
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Life from the Loam
I think this list strikes a good compromise in a few ways:
1. It plays 4 Delver of Secrets, which is one of the most efficient creatures I've had the pleasure of playing with in ages. This guy just gets there so often, I find it hard to not justify playing him in a blue deck with an instant/sorcery count above 24 or so.
2. It has 21 lands, which is what the old Team America decks played.
3. It has a strong suite of removal and discard that is capable of dealing with any threat, supported by 4 Wasteland for mana disruption and destroying key lands.
4. It has 22 blue cards for Force of Will.
5. It is capable of entering board-control mode after sideboard.
My main idea for changing the deck is driven out of concern that 21 lands might not be sufficient for this style of deck, given the sort of mana commitment that Snapcaster demands, and (out of the sideboard) Pernicious deed. Hence, I'm considering:
-1 Ponder
-2 Unearth
+1 Fetch/Bayou/Trop/Tar Pit
+2 Jace
In this case, I would have 2 Jace in place of the Unearths, and 1 Ponder would be gone in favor of another land. This would make the deck more controlling, and would diminish the effectiveness of Delver somewhat; however, 24 "hits" is still a good 40% chance of flipping, even larger when you factor in BS/Ponder setups and fetches. If this is too significant I could see putting the 4th Ponder or another Unearth back in for a Jace.