Chains of Mephistopheles <golf clap>, so in the last page people have advocated playing 3 of the best cards against Enchantress in Enchantress. Anyone want to roll out Dystopia? Maybe Trinisphere?Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
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Chains of Mephistopheles <golf clap>, so in the last page people have advocated playing 3 of the best cards against Enchantress in Enchantress. Anyone want to roll out Dystopia? Maybe Trinisphere?Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Perhaps Nether Void?Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
If we are actually having trouble with combo, how do we feel about Runed Halo or Nevermore?
The people here would likely love to run Nether Void, Sphere of Resistance and a playset of Acid Rain.Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
White Leyline is a start against combo then flavor from there, reanimator combo caves to Rest in Peace. Tendrils caves to white leyline and Sterling Grove. Show and Tell can't beat O-Ring / D-Sphere. I think Nevermore is the only thing that been discussed that merits any discussion versus combo, it's also marginally useful versus Abrupt Decay, Liliana and a few other cards that are tough for enchantress to fight.
Ethersworn Canonist and Rule of Law are, for me, the best weapon VS storm/elves decks. Even they are bad for enchantress, they are very very bad for storm/elves and can be put to the battlefield T2 with the most chance than any other solution (with tutor).Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Actually, Enchantress needs only to play a RiP and a Helm and not necessarily to play lot of cards in a turn (and can play tutor during opponent's turn). There is no problem to play those cards when those cards kill an opponent.
- Leyline+Grove are not enough because you need to play Leyline + 2 Grove before T3.... (and totally useless vs elves).
- Mindbreak trap is not enough because Silence and discard are often played in ANT (and totally useless vs elves).
But if you have a real best idea, tell us and please give us your enchantress list.
Why don't you just play your own Silences? Storm would definitely be surprised! Between Leyline and Solitary Confinement, it seems like you should be well set-up to find a shroud effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dihensoeur
I'm not quite sure why Elves is a problem. You own a Moat, right? Between that, Humility, and RiP-Field, seems like Enchantress should be favored.
Silence is not enough to win versus Storm.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
- If you have only one silence in hand: he play discard, you response with silence, OK next turn he kill you.
- If you have both Leyline and silence: first, the chance to have both in start hand is very short. Second, he start combo, take a bounce, you play silence ok you will probably win. In g3 you need to have again both Leyline and Silence but opponent will get first the bounce and or play Silence too.
Canonist will be managed by the opponent. But it allow us to gain time to get the combo or more protection. And have 2 lands + one tutor/canonist is easier than have both leyline + other card like silence or mindbreak trap.
- Moat is a very expensive card and few people have it.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
- it's not more efficient in the actual meta so people doesn't play it anymore.
- it cost 4 and elves can kill you turn 2.
it's the same for humility: cost 4 and so will be arrive too late.
Energy Field can protect us for the g1 if the opponent doesn't have a solution MD. But g2 and g3, there are Abrupt Decay and maybe Harmonic sliver, and elves draw its deck so have a solution before we protect energy field.
The best solution is to avoid opponent to combo otherwise he will get his solutions before us.
You run 8 x Wild Growths and Serra's Sanctum how is Moat too slow? What dream world do you live in where elves turn 2's you? How often does that happen? Then matrix that dream elf world scenario across a real tournament. I think you are in a remote corner case.
About Moat. I own 4 Moats. Within 48 hours I could possess 12 Moats from local legacy players. If you want to discuss budget decks there is a forum for that. Citing the cost of a card is ridiculous.
"not more efficient in the actual meta so people doesn't play it anymore." this makes zero sense. Moat is one of the most efficient cards ever printed in the history of Magic. For example, versus goblins you utilize 1 Magic card and you shut off approximately 30 of his. Leaving him something awful like Siege ganging you to death. For example, versus elves you utilize 1 Magic card and then they can't attack you (assuming Craterhoof, which is the only thing I can think of that could kill you fast enough in the magical dream world you describe above).
Posting lists is pointless when people are suggesting playing Rule of Law, Ethersworn Canonist and Chains and other cards that directly trump the core plan of enchantress, which is fast mana production and it's draw engine.
In general Moat is not really playable right now. Most Enchantress veterans swapped to the newly printed Sphere of Saftey for that type of effect since it also works against flying creatures like Delver, Emrakul, Griselbrand, Iona… Having said that, I personally don’t think the effect is needed ATM. Our slots would be better spent on making sure our engine is online and hitting the Confiment lock.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
We are better served doing this because it will make the deck overall more resilient to counter magic, and provides player shroud. Moat is a carry-over from a time period in which you could not play 12 3 CMC or less Enchantress’s (Argothian, Pressence, Green Sun’s), and couldn’t really count on the engine early. I personally feel that has changed the engine is now reliable.
What Dihensoeur is suggesting is not conventional, but I can see that it may be effective. It is entirely plausible that there are matches where the engine is too slow, so you might as well hate them out. It wouldn’t be my first plan of attack, but I don’t think it was Dihensoeur’s since he has been playing a lot of different Enchantress builds like I have.
At any rate Nedleess, I hope you stick around to help further innovate, and Dihensoeur keep testing, and let us know your win percentage with combo with your set-up.
Personally, I’m going to test others. Although Root Maze is symmetrical when your opponents play fetches & or accelerate out artifact mana, and we ramp by design it isn’t. I think it might be a powerful weapon in conjunction with Leyline to effectively stall a game till we can lock.
I can see it severely hindering cantrip spells and “go off” turns.
I will be adding main deck Enlightened Tutors as well. This will help dial up the correct hate suite (outside of Leyline) as needed. It also will also provide path 12 & 13 to an enchantress effect (presence) under severe duress. It is especially effective against discard since it is a top deck tutor so that is also a plus.
There are also minor play like Abundant Growth -> draw trigger on the stack -> tap Abundant land for :w: -> cast Enlightened Tutor ->resolve draw trigger & get card. For need it now situations. Like a T2 Tormod’s Crypt perhaps.
I’m not too familiar with playing with Silence, but I did trade for some thinking they may do the trick. The main peoblems I see with it are Enchantress likes to tap out to maximize draw. So leaving mana up MAY pose an issue. Secondly, we don’t win the next turn usually so when do we do then?Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
I’ll add these to the test queue.Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
I forgot that elves doesn't play enchant disrupt cards...Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Ok, so you have no suggestion and strangely no deck list to share with us. So please let us in our "stupidity", our "magical dream world" and don't reply to this thread anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
@alphastryk
Runed halo: it doesn't work for Empty the warren.
Nevermore: it can be good but no enough.
Those 2 cards will arrives too late and will be bounce by the opponent as any card we can put onto the battlefield.
They can be useful vs combo deck but only after stop it with a Canonist (to gain time to put all weapons and overpass all opponent's bounce).
I tested Root Maze last night and it's not good. It's not terribad but the card assumes you are ahead so you can not bring it invs non-combo MUs.
Also the card disadvantage of Enlighted Tutor is noticeable against contol. Therefore 1 might be the max for the abundant growth list.
This is my current list, I haven't played it in an actual tournament as of yet. However, I play it a lot on Lackey and it fairs well to most matchups.
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Abundant Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
4 Mirri's Guile
4 Rest in Peace
1 Seal of Primordium
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Solitary Confinement
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Helm of Obedience
4 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
8 Forest
1 Plains
3 Serra's Sanctum
2 Karakas
Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 City of Solitude
1 Seal of Primordium
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Choke
1 Karmic Justice
2 Swords to Plowshares
Two more reports (2-2 record & and 3-1 record) and some conclusions.
Yesterday I played in a 16 man and went a frustrating 2-2.
Round 1: Half Reanimator half TinFins 0-2:
G1: Turn 2 Grizzy --> everything gets forced / loose.
G2: I keep a 1 lander but a turn 2 Rest In Peace off of Utopia SprawlAlso didn't draw a Crypt.
Turn 2 could not topdeck Crypt or a land and RIP gets dazed. Loose to a turn 3 Grizzy.
Round 2: Merfolk 2-0
G1 Confinement lock and win with helm.
G2 Bring in the grass and some orings. More of game 1.
Round 3 Aggro Loam 2-1
Game 1 I keep a 1 lander with guile. 5 turns later still no second land, and loos to dark confidant and lands edge of the equivalent.
Game 2 Good hand and Confinement lock early to a win.
Game 3 Loose hand but top decks well gets there in short order.
Round 4 Miracles 0-2
This was also very frustrating as this is a positive MU.
G1 I was forced into a 5 card 1 lander (seriously I run 19) with guile. I drop guild and see 3 3 CMC enchantments. I'm locked. I get out of it, but too late.
G2 Just the opposite. I keep a hand with a lot of land and no action and guile. Guile see 3 lands (time to run fetches.) and loose to the helm kill no less. :(
So I decide to run 4 fetches for a while.
Today I just finished the daily (with fetches) to a 3-1 finish (5th out of 27).
Round 1 BUG: 2-0
Game 1: lots of discard and counter spells get me down to a small hand, but no pressure on the board. I get some good top decks and I'm able to race back to a Confinement lock and helm him.
Game 2: Lots of permanent hate pulse, waste, decay, but my engine out races his hate with relative ease. Get there with Angles is I'm not mistaken.
Round 2 RUG: 2-1
G2: Careful to work around the taxing counter magic keeping the first few turns to ramp followed by the lock then win.
G2: Eventually 3 flipped Delvers don't give me the time to work around the taxing spells. He gets there.
G3: Starts like game 3, but there was no Wasteland for Sanctum this time. I have a go off turn and try to land Confinement lock and it gets forced. I know the top card on my deck is a land from guile so I fetch, and cast RIP draw into helm and helm him right there (thank you fetch land!)
Round 3: Mono White Hatebears 1-2 :(
Bad mull g1 and Crusader gets me in short order.
G2: I get there with a good hand.
G3: Super Bad mull. to a 4 card no green source hand Karakas and Sanctum. T1 my opponent plays Karaks (crap legend rule) and I'm stuck. Down comes Thalia and here comes the ports to seal it up.
Round 4 Esperblade 2-1
Game 1: Get there Lock and helm kill through counter magic
Game 2: He has the nutz. I try and play around his hate and maximize my hand which leads me to play GSZ before presence. I lands and he has Zealous Persecution That was the dagger from there I can not race his team with Confinement.
Game 3: Started like Game 1 but then my opponent disconnected :( I had the combo in hand with a Guile. I can't call it a lock, but I was feeling pretty good about it.
Here is where my list is at today:
Enchantments (31)
4 Abundant Growth
4 Mirri's Guile
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Enchantress's Presence
1 Elephant Grass
1 Seal Of Primordium
4 Rest in Peace
4 Solitary Confinement
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
Sorcery (3)
3 Green Sun's Zenith
Artifacts (3)
3 Helm of Obedience
Lands (19)
3 Serra's Sanctum
2 Karakas
10 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
Sideboard (15)
2 Elephant Grass
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Oblivion Ring
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
Moved (1) E. Grass Main to free up room in the board. I got to live the enchantress dream the other day. Game 1 against Charbelcher my opponent makes a bunch of goblins. T1 I play E grass, T2 land + grow +pay T3 ... and I ended up wining! I like to make a video of it if I can figure that out. Won G2 with Layline
Moved E Tutor to the board. It's a non-enchantment that is card disadvantage that is in the secondary color. Some matches it's good, but control is not one of them. How have they been fairing for you SovietOlga?
O rings in the board are now up to 4 making the Sneak and Show Omni tell MU very playable.
Added 4 Windswept main as discussed above.
...and that is about it for now.
Hello freggle, i think the 4x of grass could help a bit to gain some time expecially against griselbrand, progenitus, batterskull, confidant and so on...and is always a cc1 drop. I suggest these little changes without upsetting your list (even if I disappoint a bit on it :p). The sanctum sometime can bring a little screw and an Humility in mono copy can save the game many times
-1 Mirri's guile
-1 Serra's Sanctum
+2 Savannah/temple garden
(I'll play with 20lands anyway)
SB
-1 O.Ring
+1 Humility
But the sterling grove is a key-enchantment for the deck: hexproofing and tutoring are one of the cores of the deck imho and with only 1 needle and 1 tutor, there is the risk u will never see both in G2 during the match:tongue:
Elephant Grass is a good card, but it’s not great. Good players will attack through it. IT’s best against a swarm, like Goblins, Merfolk or Zoo, but this deck has beaten those decks as is. The main is stet-up to beat control since that is what you are more likely to see. It also does well against agro this way since you can still draw into 1 of 4 Solitary Confinements or just combo off.Quote:
Originally Posted by renna
Elephant Grass is needed for the slower traditional lists because you need time to Sterling Grove and the alike. This list so far does not. You either lock or win through massive amounts of draw.
This list most of the time can race Natural order is definitely faster than Batterskull even through normal Esper disruption, and it’s not Grisselbrands attack I’m worried about. We could beat a 7/7 flier. It’s the built in Bargain that is an issue.
The land issue is true. I would first try:Quote:
Originally Posted by renna
-1 Karakas
+1 Savannah
This way it keeps my non-basic land count the same, and now gives the deck 15 on-color sources.
Humility Shuts off Argothian Enchantress so I wouldn’t even consider it unless under desperation. …and I’m not desperate.
Oblivion Ring has been doing very well for me to hit the common hate:
Counterbalance
Ethersworn Canonist
Phyrexian Revoker…
Mirri’s Guile & Serra’s Sanctum are two of the most important cards in this list.Quote:
Originally Posted by renna
You can cut a Sanctum but it is very good at negating Thalia and taxing counter magic. It also makes the deck far more explosive. It’s our Lion’s Eye Diamond. Mirri’s Guile on the other hand is an enchantement with a :g: casting cost (the sweet spot) that allows us to present the correct order of threats. It is VERY powerful, and would not cut a single one right now. It is what gives us game against Jund and a lot of other decks.
Sterling Grove IS powerful, but not fast. The :g::w: cost is tricky. And the top deck tutor is a tempo / draw loss. It is not what you really want to be doing in this meta IMHO. The same goes for Enlightened Tutor. The non-enchantment card disadvantage is too much to bear. Playing it against a list like RUG is helping them with their own plan. Tempo you out. It may even get cut from the board as I rarely bring it in, and usually regret it when I do. Check out the meta of this top 9. You have to regularly fight through that. ...which we can do.Quote:
Originally Posted by renna
The Pithing Needle is there to fill a slot that I had freed-up from moving an Elephant Grass main. I mainly want it vs. Lilianna of the Veil as all of her abilities hurt us pretty good. I’m still trying to solve the right boarding vs. Jund I can win with a lyline but sometimes you are stuck with a soft hand doing that. I have been going towards the grass, and o ring lately (to handle Bob, and lillianna) and that has been working.
Mmh probably your choices (and mine) are influenced by the local meta, but when I land sterling grove + confinement my opponent usually scoop (because maybe he had a chance to remove 1 enchantment, but not 2). And if we land the second one we have a safe-shell from single target spells.
And against jund/nic-fit is a tempo/protecting card that is needed to save our enchantment by pulse, decay, and so on. But i agree with you, the grove is slow and need another draw to pick up the card, but I use it expecially for the shroud ability rather than the tutoring one (and against dredge too is good, so he can't use ray of revelation to remove RIP). Lastly, I really wish to try the zenith but I'm scared to move out grass or sterling. After a big tournament I'll have this Sunday probably I'll make some changes:smile:
New (mini) Report: Legacy Daily 4-2-13 [3-1 for 3rd place]
Round 1 [Bye - Opponent Disconnect]
Round 2 [RU Delver 2-0]
Round 3 [Imperial Painter 0-2]
Round 4 [RUG Delver 2-1]
While I certainly respect all your contributions and discussion regarding the deck, I don't understand how you can consider Sterling Grove to be a bad fit in Enchantress, of all decks. It's essentially a strictly better Imperial Seal or Vampiric Tutor for this deck (which by the way are both banned in 1.5) and Enchantress is probably the best potential silver-bullet decks in existence. It literally has answers to nearly every situation imaginable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freggle
Most of the time Sterling Grove reads: GW, Draw 1-8, Choose One - protect your combo/defensive pieces or search for your combo/defensive pieces.
edit: It's also an additional shuffle effect for bad Mirri reveals and ensures critical fuel late game when you have an enchantress/confinement engine assembled.
Sterling Grove: It's a card I waver on quite a bit. I never meant to imply that it is a bad fit as it clearly has absurd amounts of synergy, and can be absurdly powerful. I just have a really tough time figuring out it's role in the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortox
In the GWr lists it has a larger role because those decks a set-up to be more of a toolbox deck running singletons of Moat or Choke, but in the list I have been playing lately it's doesn't have a clear role.
In the :w::g: lists I have been playing lately drawing cards, and resolving the engine trumps all else. I tried to pair down Enchantress to it's most simple of parts to make it more resilient to overall hate. When I would encounter an issue I would adjust the list accordingly. There are very few times in tournament play in which I would want to resolve a Sterling Grove.
If we wanted to put it main I'm not even sure where it would go (likely because I don't understand it's role well.) Would we add Sterling Grove for it's shroud effect (the biggest reason to consider it IMHO) then it is likely best as a sideboard card. Is it that it can tutor for an enchantment? If So what is the enchantment? ...the two most likely would be Sigil of the Empty Throne and Solitary Confinement.
...so then where do you make the cut main? You would want to place it in a 2 CMC slot or higher so you don't slow the deck down. The two most likely are (1) Helm of Obedience, and (1) Green Sun's Zenith slot. This would allow you to increase the enchantment count, but slow the deck down.
This will make your control MU's weaker because you have (1) less "oops I win" and a slower Enchantress effect tutor Enchantress's Presence that can get countered on the back end if you happen to resolve Sterling Grove.
Given the current DTB's I question if that is the right thing to be doing in this meta. Am I missing something? I own them in both paper and digital. I will test them in various slots and report back when complete.
The problem is that we need it to protect the actual useful stuff. A Leyline is great turn 0 against combo, but they expect it and a simple bounce the turn they want to win si enough to render it useless. Hence the need for Sterling Grove (you know this, I know you know).
Point is, it makes our hate much much better. And just playing more hate only works if it's a different card (Echoing Truth), it's cc is relevant (Abrupts Decay) and it must be in time to do it's job.
Problem is, siding in the hate of choice and Sterling Groves dilute the SB to much (and what will you take out when 8+ cards have to come in?).
Personally, I believe the current meta and the direction it's headed is extremly hostile for Enchantress. Back when Vengevines roamed the table, this deck was good to play. Now, with all the combo and discard paired with sacrifice effects, not so much. And I think the meta will only become more xtreme combo and more extreme disruption in response. And both are bad for us (give me matchups with Burn, Goblins, Zoo, Maverick, Merfolk and RUG all day long, much more fun. No ecakewalks, but at least interesting and possibly favorable).
I can see where you're coming from, I was playing a different sort of decklist (the toolbox-type) but I looked at your list and see what you mean with breaking it down to its most basic/simple components. I put yours together on mtgo and played it a bit and I actually like how consistent it is, and agree that Grove would probably not be the best fit for the reasons you described (loss of tempo, unnecessary shroud when you're essentially running 4-ofs of everything.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Freggle
The only slot in your list that I'm not completely convinced of is the single Sigil of the Empty Throne, but that's probably because I can't attribute it to making a meaningful contribution to the win in any of the games I played (didn't draw it often, and when I did I usually had the game well in hand.) How has it been for you? Can you attribute it to many wins, or is it there to just shore your game up by attacking from another angle if the combo pieces get disrupted?
I keep wanting to add a singleton green creature that can be tutored by GSZ to sort of fill the role that SotET is meant to fill (something like Progenitus for example) but I'm not sure about this; it just seems like the GSZ aren't always being utilized to their fullest; I mean situations where I have 2 argothians and 2 enchantress' presence in play, I'm drawing 4 per enchantment I play, I draw a GSZ it just feels like win-more if I play another Argothian, sort of lackluster at that point, whereas being able to tutor a legitimate damage-based threat would add pressure from a different angle while still continuing to work on the combo in the meantime. Now I don't know if this is even worth considering; perhaps you've already tried this avenue?
edit:
Also have you tried playing with 2 Helm of Obedience? I found running 3 there were several games where I drew several of them in the early game which is pretty awful. I feel like the deck doesn't need to worry about assembling the combo early, but rather to develop the board first (1cmc land enchantments, draw engines, and Confinement) before worrying about the Helm (RiP early is fine since it has proactive effect on the board) but I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.
As you said the deck is very tight, so being able to justify any free slots would be nice to add additional utility.