Maybe this is off, but wouldn't a Jitte be a good addition? It's always been really good on a Geist in my Esperblade build...Doesn't mean you should play SFM but it is something that helps imo as much if not more than Boros Charm...
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Maybe this is off, but wouldn't a Jitte be a good addition? It's always been really good on a Geist in my Esperblade build...Doesn't mean you should play SFM but it is something that helps imo as much if not more than Boros Charm...
There are U/W/R Delver versions that run SFM, with 2 equipments, so 6 extra cards. I never liked this because it took 6 spells away from Delver...but it has proven to still be a competitive deck, posting some good results. One day I'll give it a shot switching around some numbers, but I just prefer it with out SFM + equipments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
I do like the idea of a single Jitte, but to me to seems a bit unreliable just having 1. I say this because, well typically SFM is there to make it a 5 copy card. Now its really just a 1 copy, and requires 2 turns to activate. Esperblade is built to take that amount of turns to do something, this deck being tempo based is really not.
If this deck goes for the SFM package, Id suggest adopting the more tap-out strategy, (TA style). Otherwise, U/W/R without the SFM package is pretty reactive, till you want to drop that Geist and pound away.
I threw this together and I really like it. Here's what I put in:
12
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Grim Lavamancer
28
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
3 Daze
1 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
1
1 Umezawa's Jitte
19
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
15
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Geist of Saint Traft
13 Other (Work in Progress)
The metagame in my area is extremely "fair" which will show in my build, but it's easy enough to see what I did and how to realign it with a more spread and open meta. I think this is, for now, the best delver build I have seen. Ever. I like it.
This looks like you just picked a bunch of cards that have been played in previous versions of UWR Tempo/Delver. Your card selection and moreover your values do not seem to follow any rhyme or reason. To determine if it works or not you must play the deck and garner results. Every deck can seem like the best deck on paper. Especially if you switched a few values and enjoy tooting your own horn. Also good luck running a list with 5 copies of Geist of Saint Traft in a real event. :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Also that mana base seems extremely greedy. Like Damn. Activating grim lava seems like it would be difficult in the face of a wasteland our two
LoL...I don't think I'll be as harsh, but I agree, I think posting a list that is similar to any of ours (especially mine) and say it is the best version is a bit...wrong. It really doesn't help when you say 'I just threw this together'. Additionally, you said you tuned yours to go against 'fair' decks, so that means (at the least) its the 'best' version you've seen against a fair meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
I'm glad your trying Gitaxian Probe, I think more people should. I do think your making the mistake of playing 4 Grim Lava's. I think 3 is a stretch. It is what I run, but that's because I feel it is a great answer for Deathrite Shaman and other various 2-3 drops. 4 copies basically throws your priority off, and your not going to be really get this thing active right away. I'm also glad your running 4 Geists, I feel that is the way to go (after lots of testing). Don't underestimate that Vendilion Clique, however. It's something you don't have.
Your Jitte is also untested in this deck. Another issue to your claim. The reason jitte is questionable in TEMPO decks is it costs 2 to cast, and 2 to equip. You will likely spend two turns activating this, when you should be playing more passively, ensuring that creature stays on the board or ensuring they don't get some unmanageable threat. I don't think its bad, I just think its untested. It's also a 1 of. I think this will eventually be more costly than helpful. I'd rather run the 4th Daze, or 3rd FoW.
I agree. Your proposed list has the same number of color producing sources as a typical RUG Delver list with an extra fetch. No basics and lots of fetches makes you weak to both Stifle and Wasteland. So in the face of either of these commonly played cards you are going to have a hard time getting much offense going. I think casting 1 of your 5 listed Geists may be possible but it is certainly going to be difficult in match ups with a mana denial angle of attack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Well, while I agree that his posting is questionable, I stand by the 4 copies of Geist (plenty of testing). My goal isn't to slam it down turn 3, and of course I've planned for that Wasteland/Stifle battle. I think the deck does fine with 19 lands. It's about timing as I'm sure you know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
On that note my list needs to be updated, probably do that soon. Majority of changes are to the manabase.
Jesus, I didn't mean my build was the best, but rather this thread. Also, I meant to type Vendilion Clique, not a 5th Geist. I have been playing this in a small playtest group, not tournament, lots of game 1's obv. since no completed sideboard. Wow. This works for myself, my playstyle and my meta. You don't have to like it, I was just going to join in on the conversation but I can see I should just butt out. I will leave you geniuses be and learn from the sidelines.
-ABC
I think you just approached it wrong, you can't state something you just threw together is the best, regardless of whether or not you meant for the forum or wherever. I can only speak for myself, but I didn't really mean anything negative. If anything I tried to point out the issues in your main deck. If I thought 4 Grim Lavamancers was better than 3, I'd do it, but its not. In fact there isn't a legacy deck that runs 4. Every deck that runs it, for the most part is 2, and sometimes 3. I'd recommend adding the 4th Daze. It is important to have, and as long as your playing the deck right, win or lose your games should never go long enough to the point where Daze becomes obsolete. Also, if you run FoW in the main, its better to have 3 and up. This gives it more consistency, 2 and up seems like 2 dead cards. Misderection is great, I'd rather have the 3rd FoW, and save that for the side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
If I had a suggestion for your side, it would be 1 Vendilion Clique (so 2 total, 1 main 1 side), 4th copy of FoW, 2 Rest in Piece, 2 Meddling Mage, 2 Wear // Tear, and if needed extra Spell Pierce. That's not knowing your meta. If your meta is a bunch of fair decks, I see why you only run 2 FoW, however I'd just cut it out all together if you don't plan on getting out of that meta. Thats 2 more spots for more relevant cards, such as that 4th StpS or something else.
My problem with your previous post is the assumption that your list (or a list developed from information contained in this thread) is the best with little to no testing. Game ones are great, but only 33-50% of the games you will play in a real tournament. Without testing sideboarded games you are really only getting a feel for how your maindeck functions. What I am saying is that your games two and three are more important as you will be playing more (or equal) games post board than preboard over the course of an entire tournament.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
You didn't check over your values to make sure that the list was even tourney legal. How do you expect others to trust your advice/analysis when you are unable to post a legal decklist/count to 5? I know this may come across as harsh and I don't intend to make you feel unwelcome, just please tighten up your posts. You very well may be onto a solid list. Run it in some events. Post tourney reports and your results. This will get everyone farther along than claiming a specific list is the best without solid testing.
So I'm going to the local Tournament this weekend. There should be around 30+ in what I think is a combo heavy meta.
This is what I'm thinking about running:
Land
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Vendilion Clique
Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
3 Force of Will
Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Wear // Tear
2 Meddling Mage
2 Rest in Peace
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Force of Will
I'm still looking for a 4th Stifle and Geist. Though if I got the Geist he might go straight to the SB. I'm not sure what I would take out if/when I get the 4th stifle. Prob a Daze or Spell Pierce. Any thoughts? It plays pretty good, I wish I could get more testing in before the tourney cause I'm also tempted to go to 19 land.
Cheers.
I recommend playing the 19th land as this deck consistently wants to reach 3 mana for Geist and Snapcaster Mage. Otherwise, 18 lands would be fine just like it is in RUG Delver.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynic13th
I'm at 20 now (including 4 wasteland), I'm debating dropping one, most likely the island.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
You might want to bump up Ponder to 4 if you're cutting a land in that case. Being able to make your land-drops are going to be a critical part of your early game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynic13th
I like your list. I'm also glad you stated your entering a combo heavy meta, it clears the way for those FoW, Spell Pierce. I will say this however, in a combo heavy meta, I'm not sure how 3 Snapcaster Mage will do. I know that I'd want that 4th Geist in one of its places. It's a combo killer. The clock is amazing, and one of the reasons Geist found its way into Deathblade decks. You may also be able to get away with dropping 1 Bolt or 1 StpS, if your really really sure its a lot of combo. I'm content on 19 lands with 4 Geist. 18 lands is low for this deck running multiple cards with 3cc+. 20 is good but I think unnecessary, but 19 to me is just right. (plenty of testing) 18 really just seems risky and overly greedy. RUG Delver gets away with it but doesn't run the 3cc cards we want too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynic13th
All that being said, I like your list.
Another good point about the 19th land. Snapcaster is often not included in that calculation. I don't run Snapcaster in my list, however it is something I do enjoy playing with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
I'd recommend dropping to 19, as hinted by the last 2 pages of my posts (including this). Just try it, do some tests. I'm sure you'll end up liking it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynic13th
Tempo decks love play-sets of Ponder thats for sure. This or a Daze.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Interesting points.Quote:
Originally Posted by yaWgnorW
I hope to pick up a 4th Geist, but we'll see. I might drop a land for a ponder and a snapcaster for putting the Clique in the Main, since they're good vs. combo as well.
I hope to get some testing in, but time is short. (damn this working for a living thing)
Cheers.
Yes, damn that thing that provides us with the thing for more cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynic13th
Good luck and please if you don't mind post your results when you can. I'm interested to see how your list performs, what decks you face, etc etc.
Oh, I'd also like to say, in regard to land count. I run 19 lands without Snapcaster, just for reference. Running more than 2 would likely effect that for me.
I'll try to take some notes, and post up here. Should be 5 rounds of swiss at least, so I'll get some games in no matter what. We'll also see if I guessed right with the meta, or if I've just been unlucky with what I've seen/played.Quote:
Originally Posted by yaWgnorW
Cheers.
I wonder if it would be possible to find a space for Karakas. It would protect geist for mass removal like supreme verdict and sacrifice (Lili) effects and would give our clique an option for extra hand disruption (although expensive)
With our greedy mana base I am not sure if we could afford it but others have mentioned Karakas and I wondered if it would be a viable option?