Poll: Reserved List

Hi guys,

First time poster here. I tend to agree with Ertai's Familiar and I don't think Lord Seth's example is relevant. I got into Legacy a few years back and before starting to build my collection I did my fair share of research, play testing, forum lurking and price hunting. I figured what was required to have a single deck, a single tier deck or a card pool for a range of decks. I made my plan and started building my collection, buying and trading into things and have paid a lot of attention to this game (both the metagame, printings/bannings, season cycles etc. and the financial ups and downs) to build up the collection I have today. I didn't do much speculation like buying 100 Zendikar fethces to make profit a year down the road (because I didn't have the funds) but I tried to foresee the trends and buy the things at the right time, not sell things unless I had to... I bought some sutff at the wrong time or sold others but for some things I was right on time and had to prioritize my real life expenditures to be able to make that purchase when the prices were low. Sometimes I postponed my real life purchases a month to be able to catch a good deal which could shoot up in a couple weeks. Now I have the majority of the staples for Tier 1 blue decks and can switch decks around with much less effort but I did put in the work.

Now I do realize that the prices are really high and some people will just be out of luck coming into the game this late. Someone between 16-20 who started this game last year and getting into Legacy this year may not be able afford a decent Legacy deck for years as long as the Reserve list is in place. But, there are quite a lot of players who have been playing this game for some years, all the while complaining about the prices and letting the opportunities pass them by. I've put in the work and know that it can be done. It's getting harder and harder, but if you put in the work you still can. I'm not against minor reprints like the Karakas judge foil which didn't do a single thing to the price of the original, but I don't think it's fair to the players who did the work to build up their collection, made sacrifices, planned their real life expenditures and prioritized this hobby over other things to abolish the reserve list completely.

I'm not worried about the value of my collection because I don't intend to sell it. I just agree with Ertai's Familiar that this is a CCG and Wizards should take care with players (yes not only the collectors) who've put in time and effort to build their collections while making newer players happy.

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Originally Posted by KntrellCL

more replicas, less value... so why paying thousands of dolar for black lotus and then gets reprint?

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Magic cards are not bonds. If you're buying a card because of what you think you can sell it for later and not because of what it's worth to you, then fuck you, I hope you get hosed.

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Originally Posted by Higgs

Hi guys,

First time poster here. I tend to agree with Ertai's Familiar and I don't think Lord Seth's example is relevant. I got into Legacy a few years back and before starting to build my collection I did my fair share of research, play testing, forum lurking and price hunting. I figured what was required to have a single deck, a single tier deck or a card pool for a range of decks. I made my plan and started building my collection, buying and trading into things and have paid a lot of attention to this game (both the metagame, printings/bannings, season cycles etc. and the financial ups and downs) to build up the collection I have today. I didn't do much speculation like buying 100 Zendikar fethces to make profit a year down the road (because I didn't have the funds) but I tried to foresee the trends and buy the things at the right time, not sell things unless I had to... I bought some sutff at the wrong time or sold others but for some things I was right on time and had to prioritize my real life expenditures to be able to make that purchase when the prices were low. Sometimes I postponed my real life purchases a month to be able to catch a good deal which could shoot up in a couple weeks. Now I have the majority of the staples for Tier 1 blue decks and can switch decks around with much less effort but I did put in the work.

Now I do realize that the prices are really high and some people will just be out of luck coming into the game this late. Someone between 16-20 who started this game last year and getting into Legacy this year may not be able afford a decent Legacy deck for years as long as the Reserve list is in place. But, there are quite a lot of players who have been playing this game for some years, all the while complaining about the prices and letting the opportunities pass them by. I've put in the work and know that it can be done. It's getting harder and harder, but if you put in the work you still can. I'm not against minor reprints like the Karakas judge foil which didn't do a single thing to the price of the original, but I don't think it's fair to the players who did the work to build up their collection, made sacrifices, planned their real life expenditures and prioritized this hobby over other things to abolish the reserve list completely.

I'm not worried about the value of my collection because I don't intend to sell it. I just agree with Ertai's Familiar that this is a CCG and Wizards should take care with players (yes not only the collectors) who've put in time and effort to build their collections while making newer players happy.

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Can you name me a parallel to anything else in any aspect of life or the economy where anyone, ever says, "I don't want you to create later versions of things because it will ruin my enjoyment of the version I have."

I mean like this is not how it works in collectible cards for like, baseball cards. There are different versions of cards and people will pay more for a Mickey Mantle from 1950whatever than one in 2010, but no one says you have to stop making new baseball cards.

Because it strikes me as the most asinine, inane, insane and childish complaint ever conceived of.

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Originally Posted by Ertai's Familiar

This investment collector notion is hilarious. As someone with a high value collection, it isn't about a drop in the value of my collection. Its about putting in the fucking work. I've spent a significant amount of time, effort, and sacrifice to get where I am. Why should others have everything handed to them on a silver platter? If you are as emotionally invested in participating in this game, as so many of you claim to be, put in the work.

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Because the purpose of a game is to have fun and not to prove how much of your bankroll you're willing to sacrifice.

And because maintaining the value of older cards doesn't help Wizards at all.


Really, it's an absurd and laughable combination, preaching to newer players about personal responsibility while demanding that Wizards forgo its own best interests.

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Originally Posted by Mr.C

Why? My wheels are still the real deal. It's pimper, so to speak. Why would I want a cheap knock-off if I can afford the real one? My wheels aren't being made any more. They can flood the market with replicas, for all I care (and people have... This design is widely available, but real ones get snap bought at high prices).

Some people are satisfied with having a fake, a reprint, so to speak. For others, having something rare and difficult to acquire is not only 'better', but more satisfying. Why do people pay thousands of dollars for Summer rares, for example? Just buy a Revised Underground Sea, by your reasoning.

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This point needs to be emphasized and re-emphasized.

The point of having a collectible isn't that you have the only edition of something and other editions hurt you somehow as a collector.

Someone that has a first printing of Tale of Two Cities doesn't shake with rage at the existence of Penguin reprints.

As far as I know it's only in Magic cards where there's this god-fuckedly stupid concept that having an M14 Candelabra of Tawnos would be some massive affront to everyone that owns an Antiquities Candelabra, and that they're entitled to the market value of that card being preserved based upon simple scarcity and demand, and not around the collectible aspects of the card, as that's understood in every other hobby.

And it's not that Magic players don't grasp this concept at its fundamentals, because they pay more for black borders and originals and misprints etc..

So I have no idea where this idea comes from.

MtG is a game but Wizards comes out and says "a promise is a promise", so instead of saying "f. this bs I'll play PC games and won't gamble with my money on a game" some us see that it's either spend now or spend much more later and buy into their product. MtG is a game but when some levels of it are being played at $2000 not everything about it is a game. I'm not saying they shouldn't reprint anything (ex Karakas, quite fine) but they should be careful how they juggle this. Quite literally if after holding onto this promise for so long if they abolish it like it's nothing, that will read "screw you and your dedication to the game, who told you to play this for 10 frigging years". How do you like that signal as a long time player?

I want to see reserve list abolished but not in the sense of being nuked. I think they should find a smarter way of doing things.

I'd abolish it but protect appearance. No old-frame reprints of the kind they did with Crucible. Allows access to cards, preserves clear authenticity factor.

One thing I've thought of before is having MTGO tournaments (say big Modern events) with physical, new frame, new art reprints of dual lands as the prize reward. They can control the distribution of the reprints easily, use this as a bridge between paper players and their online platform, give newer players a way to acquire older cards by playing newer formats while also making players put in the work to acquire these cards. If you are a player who can't access these cards just play the game and win. This would be a much nicer way of handing people the cards than on a silver platter (a.k.a in boosters). Most people wouldn't want to sell these versions because they'd be like trophies, and the ones that start to get circulated in the market would be quite limited. This wouldn't crash the value of our cards but maybe put a cap on their increase.

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Originally Posted by bilb_o

MtG is a game but Wizards comes out and says "a promise is a promise", so instead of saying "f. this bs I'll play PC games and won't gamble with my money on a game" some us see that it's either spend now or spend much more later and buy into their product. MtG is a game but when some levels of it are being played at $2000 not everything about it is a game. I'm not saying they shouldn't reprint anything (ex Karakas, quite fine) but they should be careful how they juggle this. Quite literally if after holding onto this promise for so long if they abolish it like it's nothing, that will read "screw you and your dedication to the game, who told you to play this for 10 frigging years". How do you like that signal as a long time player?

I want to see reserve list abolished but not in the sense of being nuked. I think they should find a smarter way of doing things.

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So in other words, you bought in recently and think you're entitled to have that decision validated financially, even at the expense of Wizards' own profit margins and the health of the game overall.

Because news flash, plenty of people who've been playing and collecting a long time are against the reserved list, including Starcity.

Yup, so am I and I do think that I'm entitled to my opinion just like everyone else.

I had my FoWs and Wastelands and Intuitions and a bunch of other staples since they were under $10 back in the day and I bought quite a number of staples recently so I'm not sure what your assumptions based on my history as a player has anything to do with anything. I always defended reprints and my vote was for the abolishing of the Reserved list. I'm saying that they can't just say fuck it and start raping the value of all these cards, they have to be smart about it because based on their so called promise an entire eco-system of collectibles market has been established over they years and around the globe. I don't think you are reading the discussion with an objective mind.

I'm still hoping that the MM will be an example of reprinting money cards without crashing their value.

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Originally Posted by Higgs

Hi guys,

First time poster here. I tend to agree with Ertai's Familiar and I don't think Lord Seth's example is relevant. I got into Legacy a few years back and before starting to build my collection I did my fair share of research, play testing, forum lurking and price hunting. I figured what was required to have a single deck, a single tier deck or a card pool for a range of decks. I made my plan and started building my collection, buying and trading into things and have paid a lot of attention to this game (both the metagame, printings/bannings, season cycles etc. and the financial ups and downs) to build up the collection I have today. I didn't do much speculation like buying 100 Zendikar fethces to make profit a year down the road (because I didn't have the funds) but I tried to foresee the trends and buy the things at the right time, not sell things unless I had to... I bought some sutff at the wrong time or sold others but for some things I was right on time and had to prioritize my real life expenditures to be able to make that purchase when the prices were low. Sometimes I postponed my real life purchases a month to be able to catch a good deal which could shoot up in a couple weeks. Now I have the majority of the staples for Tier 1 blue decks and can switch decks around with much less effort but I did put in the work.

Now I do realize that the prices are really high and some people will just be out of luck coming into the game this late. Someone between 16-20 who started this game last year and getting into Legacy this year may not be able afford a decent Legacy deck for years as long as the Reserve list is in place. But, there are quite a lot of players who have been playing this game for some years, all the while complaining about the prices and letting the opportunities pass them by. I've put in the work and know that it can be done. It's getting harder and harder, but if you put in the work you still can. I'm not against minor reprints like the Karakas judge foil which didn't do a single thing to the price of the original, but I don't think it's fair to the players who did the work to build up their collection, made sacrifices, planned their real life expenditures and prioritized this hobby over other things to abolish the reserve list completely.

I'm not worried about the value of my collection because I don't intend to sell it. I just agree with Ertai's Familiar that this is a CCG and Wizards should take care with players (yes not only the collectors) who've put in time and effort to build their collections while making newer players happy.

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So you dropped a large chunk of change on your cards and now you don't want anyone to join your elite club unless they pay a similar price?

Want to know whats not fair to the players who love this format and who did the work to build up their collection, made sacrifices, planned their real life expenditures and prioritized this hobby over other things? Not having anyone to play with.

Wizards should take care of the players by increasing supply so that we can have local tournaments and pro tours.

There are plenty of old cards that would make EDH and casual players happy, and we all know how much new players love cracking packs.

Players who already have the cards and who already are playing the format aren't going anywhere, and new players are still getting into the format. I just don't understand why people should expect things to be given them for free.

Edit: I also posted my take on a proposed middle ground solution but I guess it didn't look appealing because it involved some effort from the players wanting to play the game.

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Originally Posted by Higgs

Players who already have the cards and who already are playing the format aren't going anywhere, and new players are still getting into the format. I just don't understand why people should expect things to be given them for free.

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That's the thing, people who have the cards and are currently playing the format DO go somewhere. Life happens, people get married, get a new job, have a kid, whatever, and then don't have the time for it that they previously had. Sometimes they cash out and their cards go to someone who will use them but a lot of the time they just put the cards down for a while. I mean who wants to have to rebuy all those dual lands when you decide you want back in? The price will be even higher then (assuming no collapse of the bubble), so if you don't absolutely need the money you just stick the binders on a shelf and the cards are out of circulation until you decide to play again. This reduces both the active players and the available card pool for new players looking to buy in. That's a problem.

Why should people have to work to simply acquire the minimum essentials to even play the format, IE an actual competitive deck? This is a game. The only effort ever needed for a tournament should be making deck lists and improving your play.

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

Everyone has a different line.

I personally wouldn't mind if dual lands and other staples got released as judge promos, or in special sets such as From the Vaults, Commander's Arsenal, or a future Legacy Masters (with a small print run). This would require getting rid of the Reserved List. It would probably cost me on the order of a thousand dollars in the short term, but it will allow more players to join. That's a sacrifice that I'm willing to make. I'd like to dial things back to when dual lands were $20-50 and Forces were $25.

On the other hand, I do not want to see dual lands printed as rares in core sets M14 through M18. Those Revised Underground Seas would probably fetch $10 instead of $150 if you could get the black bordered core set versions for $5. There are probably an outspoken few Legacy players who would be okay with this because "they never plan on selling their cards anyway". However, there are other players like me who never saw our collections as investment, but still cared (at least to a small extent) about its long-term value: there was no way in hell I would have paid $20 for a piece of cardboard (let alone three figures), if there were a significant risk that the value of the card would completely plummet in a few years.

Wizards has draw the line all the way at "no reprints". I'd like them do away with the Reserved List too, but I hope they never adopt the notion that cards are inherently worthless and that it's fair game to flood the market. The notion that "it's just a game, and these are pieces of cardboard" belies the fact that it's a trading card game and the secondary market and individual card values are essential to the long-term health of the format even among those who don't purely view it as a stock market.

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That's pretty much where I sit too, and considering the (way over the top, IMHO) caution they are taking with Modern Masters, I suspect they could probably remove the RL and process reprints with enough care that existing collections wouldn't tank overnight (even including White Bordered Revised duals). In fact, I would prefer such a solution to a patchwork of workaround nearly-functional reprints (Snow Duals and the like).

trust me, the slightest infringement of the reserved list is going to have gigantic ripple effects. Without confidence/trust, markets plummet and magic is no different.

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Originally Posted by bruizar

trust me, the slightest infringement of the reserved list is going to have gigantic ripple effects. Without confidence/trust, markets plummet and magic is no different.

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The problem is I don't trust you nor see any reason to think this isn't hysteric ignorant nonsense.

Without confidence speculative markets crumble; I have no doubt that prices on a number of older cards that are primarily driven by speculation would take a hit if Wizards announced an end to the reserved list policy.

But why should Wizards care about that, or anyone else for that matter? The thing about gambling on prices is that it's gambling. This whole "Why should people be given something for free" line of talk with very somber, serious faces and grave nodding of head is pretty hilarious given who's actually asking for a handout here. Hint: it's not the people saying that Wizards should reprint their own product to their own profit.

As an aside: anybody know how much Wizards is worth? Fantasizing about being a billionaire and just buying it from Hasboro and guiding it back to glory. Just wondering how much your buying price would have to be to get them interested.

Probably a lot less than the price of all cards in the secondary market.

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

As an aside: anybody know how much Wizards is worth? Fantasizing about being a billionaire and just buying it from Hasboro and guiding it back to glory. Just wondering how much your buying price would have to be to get them interested.

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Make a pledge. Every MTG Player puts 50$ on it, and then we buy WotC