Wat. MM was banned because it's its own best answer, thus every single non-combo deck wants it as a 4 of. If its casting cost was 2 phyrexian instead of 1, then it'd still be in the format.Quote:
Originally Posted by javert
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Wat. MM was banned because it's its own best answer, thus every single non-combo deck wants it as a 4 of. If its casting cost was 2 phyrexian instead of 1, then it'd still be in the format.Quote:
Originally Posted by javert
+1 for both. So +2, really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjammn
I was just thinking about fetchlands the other day. On the whole, they are at the core of a lot of issues which are strictly Old Eternal-relevant. They push out just about any Green mana-fixing effects that aren't also ramp -- and even fixing + acceleration isn't enough these days, it has to also do something, like give a solo attacker +1/+1 or eat graveyards (Hierarch and DRS respectively). They are free tutors that allow a lot of good things, and a lot of bad things. The interaction with Brainstorm needs no introduction. Manabases arguably fix themselves, which makes one of Green's primary traits much worse than it 'ought to be'. You can get pretty greedy and go into several colors without a second thought - depending on your thoughts on this, it may even be too easy to do this without fear of retribution. Nobody gives a shit about nonbasic hate; it's often more incorrect to play less than 2 colors. One could go on, I reckon.
As for Mental Misstep, that was a lousy exercise in recursion. It answered all manner of aggressive, early spells, was touted as its own best answer, and could be played by every deck in the format. Why should every deck have the ability to counter 1-mana spells? How is that fine? Phyrexian mana was honestly a mistake, and it's one the game has made before; alternate casting costs with too few hoops to jump through are never okay because ultimately they just go into the best decks and eschew their color restrictions.
Really, the worst effects in the game are those which are generally not tied to colors or colored mana. Madness at least required an outlet; one would not play Basking Rootwalla outside a Green deck because you had that dependency on controlling a Wild Mongrel (or others) so you had to be sure that if you got your outlet handled, you could still cast it. Force of Will really is a fine equalizer; sure it says no to All The Things, but it's two cards, one life, and has classically required something like 16 - 18 other Blue cards in the deck in order to be viable, so you have to play Blue to use the effect reliably, which is fine. Phyrexian mana has no such restriction, so the spells can just go wherever. Which means, the best effects will just drift into the best decks, color-be-damned. By comparison to other typically cited free effects, a hard counter that costs just 2 life, or a spell which is 1 colorless and 4 life to kill any creature with toughness 5 or less, exist in a league all their own.
Tsumi, you're right.
But still, isn't there something satisfying in playing the fetches? You know - the best lands in the best format.
IDK.
Part o me thinks that fetches and BSlike+fetchland interactions are wonderful and I'm glad I got them. Otoh, I see how the fetchlands "warp" the format. It'll be interesting to make some analysis of this phenomenon, but you know, it's far, far too late.
I remember when the fetches came out twleve or so years ago. They were quite cheap, I mean 4 USD cheap or so. Ever since then they became omnipresent in several formats (with ZEN ones been important in Modern), formats both casual and competitive. I know that there's no point in envisioning how would the wolrd look like if this or that wouldn't happen, but still, I'm not sure if I dislike the fetchlands, how ever big mistake they might be. Look, we're talking about a game where Ancrestral Recall exists, where Shop is a four-of, where there is Jace 2.0, etc., I may even delve much more deeper and take out Contract From Below and stuff.
I feel strange nostalgia (mabye it's just that, and thus it says nothing about the health of a format and game) when thinking about the old times. You know, when you played BoP out of Brushland. But even now, when I finalize my one and only casual deck I'll keep - a deck that will never be played; it wil be kept as a testimony of the things from the past and in fact I don't really wish for a resurgence of our casual group, as it won't be the same as it was, namely once I made this amazing experience of several years in comp. environment -, ok, so even now when I finalize my casual deck, I realized I need to play fetchlands there. Yep, the deck would work without them, and yep, fetchlands will make it too pricey and yep, I did not even play the fetches those twelve or so years ago, but their power even in a non-BS deck is so obvious (and those Heaths are so nice cards) that I simply MUST play them.
I'd love to sort out my thoughts on this whole matter or better said: on my seventeen years in game. (Ok, I had breaks, but w/e.) I think that complexity of Magic (not only the game itself, but the collectible/social/finance aspects of it) is something really... I can't find the word and it definitely isn't just "interesting". But I simply don't know where to start, and as always, there are doubts - is it worthy the work, will it be interesting, am I able to describe what's going on in my mind, esp. considering I'd dip into philosophy of a children's pictorial game...
I've ha several really "interesting" - ok, not the best word again, but nvm - discussions in past several months, both a real discussions and also an "inner fights" to say it pathetically. These led me to where I'm now and I'm not even happy about it. (Not that it matters in any way.)
Bah.
People didn't understand fetches in ONS really. Brainstorm wasn't broken back then, due to no ancestral recall-effect on it (it was a card filterer, not a card draw).Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjammn
Not untill brainstorm+fetch started being abused people understood the true place of fetches.
Well don't get me wrong, I'm not calling for them to be banned. But, they have the same 'problem' that a lot of people dislike about Blue, right -- they are essentially tutors that go in every deck, and they steal Green's job of mana fixing. In concert with dual lands, a playset of any given fetchlands can grab any color of mana in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
A lot of people have said as much, but Vintage/Legacy/any given Eternal format has a power level relative to the most powerful cards from that length of time. It's sort of an obvious statement, but considering that Standard rotates and can represent itself in several different ways, something like Skullclamp or JTMS can just rotate out and cease to define that format. They hang around forever in Eternal though (save bannings, which is always unfortunate and extreme), and the variance is a lot higher the further back in time you go.
I mean, they also propel the format in such a way that I don't think their impact can be overstated. Even if dual lands did not exist, they would still represent a fantastic means of getting the color you need in a two-color deck. I think they do more good than harm, ultimately, but that doesn't make them any less egregious in their thievery of Green being best at tutoring for land, fixing mana, and so on.
Yes, exactly my thoughts! And btw, I'm sorry if I sounded like I wish to ban them, it wasn't my intention. And I'd miss them.
I'm kind of in the same position as BDP on the fetches.
They're obviously really strong, they open up a lot of interesting play decisions, and you can glean a lot of information in a match from how your opponent uses them. That's all good stuff that makes the game more interesting.
What I don't like about them is that they're obviously techy and "meta-designed" (that is to say, they're designed to interact within the context of existing pieces. The effect makes no sense prima facie – just think of a new player looking at the card, and how unusual the idea of paying life and sacrificing lands to fetch a basic is; compare to ABU duals: even if their text is bananas, the concept is super-easy to grasp); they also make color-fixing trivial. I feel like they violate the core principle of the color pie, that splashing should take effort.
If I was in a position to object and knew what I know now, I'd have opposed their printing in Onslaught ... but I also like a lot of where we're at today. I certainly wouldn't ban 'em.
Also note that there are other fetches that see basically no play outside of EDH/Pauper, be it citp MIR fetches or the fetch-basics ones. The ONS/ZEN fetches are so powerful compared to the other ones, yet so easily dismissed by the new players, that it's even funny. Otoh, casual players are pretty often so out when looking at the cards (I remember a friend of mine never understanding why I play painlands, and he never changed his mind about color fixation, even if he lost dozens and dozens of games because of the "Two Mountains and Crash of Rhinos opening hands" that it's once again not even funny), so it maybe doesn't mean anything.
Speaking of fetches - mny set of Jap. Heaths arrived just few days ago! :cool:
Tolaria West!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer