Chinese fakes

Some of the newer fakes do have blue core.

http://imgur.com/a/hLuw2
(EDIT: From the OP, oops. Thought I had a diff't link. REFRESHER, I GUESS.)

Second photo. No clue if it'd be sufficient to fool a machine, but they're definitely becoming more sophisticated. (I'm actually amazed that they managed to go through all this work to make fakes and then screwed up something as basic as the leading.)

I'm also not convinced that minor differences in texture and playability are reliable enough to determine fakes, either. I'm sure we've all handled cards straight from the booster that felt odd; Japanese Innistrad had a definite waxy feel, at least the boxes we received, compared to the English version. (The key, of course, being minor differences.)

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Originally Posted by DarkConfidant

My first impression after reading all of this is I'd rather just play Magic Online. I've thought this for a while now, but WotC would probably be happier if Vintage and Legacy became player operated and managed formats with the only support being for online events. WotC has made it clear they don't design for Legacy or Vintage, offer really an incentive or support for the events, and it's obvious they don't make any money off of them.

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I agree. What counterfeits represent is a poising of the water. The introduce serious doubt into paper magic. While digital cards can be hacked and duped, offending accounts can also be tracked and shut down. This may be a naive thought, but I trust Wizards ability to stop digital pirates of MTG more that I trust Wizards ability to stop paper pirates.

While I like the idea of a player supported format, I'm skeptical. The chief thing you need to support physical magic is a community and a place to play. LGS stores work by providing both. I think without LGS support, most competitive magic is doomed to fail or turn into your friends or kitchen table games.

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A card replacement program is an absurd thought. Imagine the logistics of that: we are going to receive collections of cards throughout MTG history and provide pirate-proof replacements to you. The expense of printing, distributing and QAing such a program would be prohibitive. Its not happening.

I think Wizards course will be to not acknowledge the problem, let eternal formats slowly die and try as much as possible to push the new hotness.

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Originally Posted by Voncaster

I agree. What counterfeits represent is a poising of the water. The introduce serious doubt into paper magic. While digital cards can be hacked and duped, offending accounts can also be tracked and shut down. This may be a naive thought, but I trust Wizards ability to stop digital pirates of MTG more that I trust Wizards ability to stop paper pirates.

While I like the idea of a player supported format, I'm skeptical. The chief thing you need to support physical magic is a community and a place to play. LGS stores work by providing both. I think without LGS support, most competitive magic is doomed to fail or turn into your friends or kitchen table games.

**
A card replacement program is an absurd thought. Imagine the logistics of that: we are going to receive collections of cards throughout MTG history and provide pirate-proof replacements to you. The expense of printing, distributing and QAing such a program would be prohibitive. Its not happening.

I think Wizards course will be to not acknowledge the problem, let eternal formats slowly die and try as much as possible to push the new hotness.

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From the standpoint of Wizards, this is a problem but it's no different than what movie companies and others deal with in China already. You can fight it with lawsuits, government pressure, etc, but best of luck.

From the standpoint of players, this is only a problem if the fakes are of inferior quality. They would infiltrate the market and cause problems in cards wearing out over time or exposing innocent players to being duped into trading for fakes and then being found out later. If cards are virtually the same as regular cards, players won't mind too much because they'll see prices dropping.

The big loser here is Star City Games and their ilk. If Wizards won't reprint powerful old cards, and also can't effectively stop Chinese forgeries, then these large retailers are totally sunk. Their market will dry up overnight as more and more people turn to cheap copies. Even if they try for the niche "certified" card market, they have to deal with dropping prices and increased cost to inspect each card they sell.

What should happen is this: the large gaming stores should offer to help Wizards financially in the event of any lawsuit that might result from abolishing the reserve list, and then abolish the reserve list. If this does not happen, the big retailers -- and the tournies they fund -- may be doomed.

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Originally Posted by Voncaster

While I like the idea of a player supported format, I'm skeptical. The chief thing you need to support physical magic is a community and a place to play. LGS stores work by providing both. I think without LGS support, most competitive magic is doomed to fail or turn into your friends or kitchen table games.

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That's a better and more nuanced way to articulate what I was trying to convey. Vintage is an awesome example of how a smaller, but dedicated group of players can really keep a community going. WotC really dropped the ball with the Vintage and Legacy champs this year when they moved it without much notice and without an immediate replacement. However, the resulting Eternal Weekend was quite popular despite being schedule around the same time as the Bazaar of Moxen and a SCG event. Vintage at Eternal Weekend was larger than it has been at GenCon in recent years. Plus, with events like the Waterberry, Team Serious Open, and NY series, there are a lot of opportunities to travel to larger Vintage events then in recent years. I think the community is much stronger for it. Hell, I'm a convert from Legacy to Vintage and it's in part because of the community.

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Originally Posted by Voncaster

I think Wizards course will be to not acknowledge the problem, let eternal formats slowly die and try as much as possible to push the new hotness.

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Modern is hit by it as well, though. How long until they push a "holostamp only format"?

Not doing anything and ignoring the problem isn't a solution, either - great, your cards have holostamps now, but what happens once they figure out to replicate that, too? Then your collection of new cards is subject to the same problem.

This could cause Chronicles-level of problems somewhere along the road.

I don't doubt that Magic will survive, but we might see changes in the future - with some of them being rather unpleasant.

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

Nobody is winning a lawsuit against WotC if they abolish the reserved list. It's not a contract. It's their current reprint policy which is subject to their whims. They've altered it over the years to include promo's and can alter it again. Speculating on collectibles isn't a right, even for a large speculator like Troll and Toad.

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If you make an investment, let's say you buy a Legacy deck for 2000 $ because of Wotc promise not to reprint Reserved List card and they break their promise AND you lose money (which is not sure, just look at MM Tarmogoyf, but it's still a possibility) because your deck is now worth 1000 $ you can sue them for 1000 $. In general, if you make an investment because of a promise and the promise is broken, you can sue them and get the money you lost.

I'm not going to do that but Hasbro was afraid that people could do that, not because of the money but because of the bad press.

Shareholders don't like companies that are being sued. Companies with shareholders are only interested in making profit and money. Do you really think that they give a **** about a promise, when they can make money, because of breaking it? Some big guy at Hasbro considered that the risk of a lawsuit is not worth the money they could make of Reserved List cards.

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Originally Posted by Adryan

If you make an investment, let's say you buy a Legacy deck for 2000 $ because of Wotc promise not to reprint Reserved List card and they break their promise AND you lose money (which is not sure, just look at MM Tarmogoyf, but it's still a possibility) because your deck is now worth 1000 $ you can sue them for 1000 $. I'm not going to do that but Hasbro was afraid that people could do that, not because of the money but because of the bad press.

Shareholders don't like companies that are being sued. Companies with shareholders are only interested in making profit and money. Do you really think that they give a **** about a promise, when they can make money, because of breaking it? Some big guy at Hasbro considered that the risk of a lawsuit is not worth the money they could make of Reserved List cards.

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Er... well, it's not quite that simple, really, but the general gist is correct. If you change your position on reliance of a promise, then you can potentially sue if you are damaged when the promise is broken.

Wizards has literally no reason to open this can of worms, hence, Modern.

The big retailers, however, DO have a reason if the chinese fakes become a real thing.

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Originally Posted by MaximumC

Er... well, it's not quite that simple, really, but the general gist is correct. If you change your position on reliance of a promise, then you can potentially sue if you are damaged when the promise is broken.

Wizards has literally no reason to open this can of worms, hence, Modern.

The big retailers, however, DO have a reason if the chinese fakes become a real thing.

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Yeah you're right, but I'm from Germany and my English is not good enough to explain something that complex correctly^^

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Originally Posted by DarkConfidant

That's a better and more nuanced way to articulate what I was trying to convey. Vintage is an awesome example of how a smaller, but dedicated group of players can really keep a community going. WotC really dropped the ball with the Vintage and Legacy champs this year when they moved it without much notice and without an immediate replacement. However, the resulting Eternal Weekend was quite popular despite being schedule around the same time as the Bazaar of Moxen and a SCG event. Vintage at Eternal Weekend was larger than it has been at GenCon in recent years. Plus, with events like the Waterberry, Team Serious Open, and NY series, there are a lot of opportunities to travel to larger Vintage events then in recent years. I think the community is much stronger for it. Hell, I'm a convert from Legacy to Vintage and it's in part because of the community.

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For those who can afford to travel to premiere events that is awesome. I think there is a world of difference between getting to play and tune your deck weekly and monthly at an LGS and traveling 2-3 times per year to big community events though. Don't get me wrong, I would be a happy to have community Legacy events over nothing. But the real danger to me of counterfeiters is LGS halting Vintage and Legacy tournaments because counterfeits dilute their business to the point that it does not make sense to support it.

MaximumC, Wizards abolishing the Reserved List doesn't even come close to deceptive trade practices. Posting from phone, I'll post more later tonight.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

MaximumC, Wizards abolishing the Reserved List doesn't even come close to deceptive trade practices. Posting from phone, I'll post more later tonight.

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This depends on the state. Each state has it's own statutes regarding deceptive trade practice. They typically cover things like false statements made about quality or availability, but your mileage may vary.

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Originally Posted by Barook

Modern is hit by it as well, though. How long until they push a "holostamp only format"?

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I fully expect that is where Wizards is headed in the next 1-2 years.

Quietly nullifying old collections from Wizards sanctioned play because its way to much logistical work to parse the real from the fake older cards in competitive play. I'm not expecting them to broadcast that fact loudly, but simply to state in very lawyer like fashion, that we will have standard and modern 2 (or some other name), that only uses holostamp cards. They will say that older cards can be used in vintage, legacy, and modern while not supporting vintage, legacy and modern tournaments.

Honestly, I think that I'm either onto MTGO or out of the game if paper legacy/modern dries up in my area as a result of counterfeiting. I'm not re-buying a paper collection of holostamped cards.

I don't care if my Legacy and Modern staples plummet in value since I bought them to play Magic, not invest. But what you don't want is prices crashing to the point that stores can't make money anymore. No stores, no events for the most part.

Lower prices in cards means prizes get worse. So the competitive aspect of tournaments will actually decrease even though it will get more players interested in playing.

TL;DR I want my neighbor Joe, who can't afford a playset of dual lands to play. But I also want awesome 40 dual land tournaments with 6-8 rounds of swiss

How can I know buy this cards? Im student with poor pool of Legacy cards and prefer to pay so much less for a so so so similar card. I cant find in ebay or sth with paypal to buy them.

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Originally Posted by mishima_kazuya

I don't care if my Legacy and Modern staples plummet in value since I bought them to play Magic, not invest. But what you don't want is prices crashing to the point that stores can't make money anymore. No stores, no events for the most part.

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I also don't care about the value of my collection either. Although I would like to play with the cards I have purchased and have a tournament scene that allows that.

LGS not making money is in effect the real danger. Without LGS, the game suffers or fails completely. I don't see this happening to standard, but it may well happen to vintage, legacy and modern, where there is essentially minimal anti-counterfeiting measures put on the cards.

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

Patents are a completely different thing than contracts, though.

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A reserve list is not a patent.

There is also no legal binding contract to keep the reserve list.

There is no consideration received or given for WOTC to make such a policy. They should be able to rescind this...though it may be a PR nightmare.

APPLICATION FOR PATENT
"Convertible modular list of game pieces, reserved for further production"

A list of game pieces (pieces), once published, but now barred from further production in a physical format. Purpose: To provide information on said pieces in a referenceable format, allowing young men to angrily speculate on the motives of lawyers and corporations.

How now, legal beagles?!?

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Originally Posted by Ivan

How can I know buy this cards? Im student with poor pool of Legacy cards and prefer to pay so much less for a so so so similar card. I cant find in ebay or sth with paypal to buy them.

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See this is what I'm talking about in the M15 thread. Right now there only a handful of cards have been counterfeited and idiots like this can't really buy them (unless they get ripped off in which case, oops). Once the counterfeiters and distributors realize how many people are thirsty for this shit the flood gates are going to open. I'm pretty sure this is the beginning of the end of sanctioned Legacy.

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Originally Posted by Voncaster

I also don't care about the value of my collection either. Although I would like to play with the cards I have purchased and have a tournament scene that allows that.

LGS not making money is in effect the real danger. Without LGS, the game suffers or fails completely. I don't see this happening to standard, but it may well happen to vintage, legacy and modern, where there is essentially minimal anti-counterfeiting measures put on the cards.

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Exactly the problem. Once counterfeits flood the market we become Vintage. People are on here talking about the Vintage community like it's the thing to be but it's not. At it's core it's been like the same 50 people and dwindling since the mid 2000's with the occasional new blood. If the right handful of people quit Vintage tomorrow it would practically cease to exist stateside. Without LGS and SCG size company support the format doesn't have a chance. I never understood how little integrity or foresight people in the Magic community had until this was announced. I always assumed people would be anti-counterfeits because it makes it a pain in the ass to rotate cards, but in reality there are lots of casual broke-ass Boost Mobile status Magic players would would love to see counterfeits crash the value of cards just to stick it to people who have more than they do. I've had several people email me asking if I knew where to buy these (answer obviously it's not that simple but it probably will be soon) and I've heard CASUAL players with no aspirations to play any sanctioned Legacy say they hope counterfeits become common just so they can basically have prettier proxies for their Cube or EDH decks. Of course in their mind that justifies supporting professional counterfeiters over just making their own proxies at home, so that's where the community think seems to be right now.

If it was just broke people trying to play Legacy I wouldn't be as concerned, but literally everyone seems to be drooling at the mouth over this and for many there's a definite vitriol towards people and businesses who own legit cards.

I have an issue with proxies of this quality. I really have no problem with someone using color sticker paper or model decals to make proxies for cube or EDH. The problem with the high quality is the secondary market and without that it becomes nothing more than pocket D & D.

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

See this is what I'm talking about in the M15 thread. Right now there only a handful of cards have been counterfeited and idiots like this can't really buy them (unless they get ripped off in which case, oops). Once the counterfeiters and distributors realize how many people are thirsty for this shit the flood gates are going to open. I'm pretty sure this is the beginning of the end of sanctioned Legacy.

Exactly the problem. Once counterfeits flood the market we become Vintage. People are on here talking about the Vintage community like it's the thing to be but it's not. At it's core it's been like the same 50 people and dwindling since the mid 2000's with the occasional new blood. If the right handful of people quit Vintage tomorrow it would practically cease to exist stateside. Without LGS and SCG size company support the format doesn't have a chance. I never understood how little integrity or foresight people in the Magic community had until this was announced. I always assumed people would be anti-counterfeits because it makes it a pain in the ass to rotate cards, but in reality there are lots of casual broke-ass Boost Mobile status Magic players would would love to see counterfeits crash the value of cards just to stick it to people who have more than they do. I've had several people email me asking if I knew where to buy these (answer obviously it's not that simple but it probably will be soon) and I've heard CASUAL players with no aspirations to play any sanctioned Legacy say they hope counterfeits become common just so they can basically have prettier proxies for their Cube or EDH decks. Of course in their mind that justifies supporting professional counterfeiters over just making their own proxies at home, so that's where the community think seems to be right now.

If it was just broke people trying to play Legacy I wouldn't be as concerned, but literally everyone seems to be drooling at the mouth over this and for many there's a definite vitriol towards people and businesses who own legit cards.

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The flood gates are already open - the guy where 4chan ordered yesterday had over 200 requests already, with probably way more coming in the next days.

People are cheap bastards. Of course they're taking the chance if they can get away with it. But the problem is way deeper than that.

Lots of people are interested in Legacy (since it's the best construced format of MtG), but the extremely high cost barrier scares alot of people away.

And Modern is crap. Full stop. The main reason why so many people play it are simply cost reasons because it's cheaper to get some shocklands instead of real duals (which have outrageous prices) and price support from Wizards' side. Now add to that the hate for hoarders and speculators which drove the prices of staples sky-high and we have the situation we got now. The mob is pissed and demands bread and circuses - and since Wizards is too ignorant to do so for business reasons, the Chinese deliver.

I also wonder why this hasn't become a thing yet:
Play high quality fakes with a language not many people can understand, like Chinese, Japanese or Russian. Not only is way harder to spot differences in the type setting, there are also minor quality differences between card sets of each language. Mistakes of the fake could easily be blamed on that.

Edit: Also alter the copyright line with full art or whatever and it's literally impossible to tell it's a fake unless the back has color issues.