[Primer] Nic Fit

I'm almost the exact reverse actually. I'd always slam Explorer turn 1 against an unknown opponent if I have a payoff card in hand.

1. Therapy (against a known deck)
2. Explorer
3. Top
4. Therapy (against unknown deck)

There are very few decks where turn one Explorer is bad. If they spent turn one hitting him with Swords, they aren't putting you under pressure or advancing their game plan.
Making Top early never impresses me. Your first few mana spent is very important, and spending turn two spinning the top makes your board position pretty awful - I'd much rather make SDT with extra mana after an Explorer trigger, or later in the game when I'm not needing to use my mana to establish a board position.

Who says you have to spin the Top T2? You can just as well cast a random CMC 1 spell through Daze (and keep a mana open as a threat so you Top at your opponents' end step).

We do play completely differently, lol.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Who says you have to spin the Top T2? You can just as well cast a random CMC 1 spell through Daze (and keep a mana open as a threat so you Top at your opponents' end step).

We do play completely differently, lol.

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Sure, but in that situation you could have done the same thing by making your Veteran Explorer on turn one and the top as the spell through Daze on turn two. That way you get to attack for 1, you get the option of being more explosive / casting two Therapies through Daze if needed, and if your opponent has Chalice you can still ramp.

I'd only make Top on turn one over a different one-drop if my hand was a really iffy keep (probably a mulligan) and I needed to find more lands asap. If you're in a situation where you only have one land, and if your Veteran eats a STP you just fold, you probably make the Top first, but that should probably be a mulligan anyway unless you're already on 5 or less cards.

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Originally Posted by Navsi

Sure, but in that situation you could have done the same thing by making your Veteran Explorer on turn one and the top as the spell through Daze on turn two. That way you get to attack for 1, you get the option of being more explosive / casting two Therapies through Daze if needed, and if your opponent has Chalice you can still ramp.

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Or your opponent drops a Plains and casts StP. When you've cast the Top, you can just sandbag the Explorer until you have an opening/have established your opponent doesn't have the StP. Plenty of decks you face don't have a really threatening clock, so why take a risk in your gameplan? You don't need to be explosive - you're better equiped than most to go for the long game, so you might just as well take advantage of that.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Or your opponent drops a Plains and casts StP. When you've cast the Top, you can just sandbag the Explorer until you have an opening/have established your opponent doesn't have the StP. Plenty of decks you face don't have a really threatening clock, so why take a risk in your gameplan? You don't need to be explosive - you're better equiped than most to go for the long game, so you might just as well take advantage of that.

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Sure, but what deck is that a good opener for?

Against Miracles, it means they don't have Counterbalance + Top online on turn two, which means you have time to actually develop your board and/or resolve a Deed, and frankly we probably didn't want an Explorer trigger anyway.
Against DnT, it means they don't have Mother of Runes or Aether Vial online on turn two, which means you're way less likely to fail to stabilize against their creatures and have more time to find and use a Pernicious Deed.
Against GWx decks they aren't ramping into a three-drop like Leovold, TNN or KOTR on turn two which makes you a lot less likely to be killed before you can stabilize again.

Also copies of STP are a precious resource for our opponents. We play a lot of creatures that don't die to much other removal, or that demand answers. If they blow an STP on a Veteran Explorer, our odds of keeping our Tireless Trackers, Leovold/Atraxa, Rhinos and Primeval Titans alive go up. I'd be pretty happy if my opponent blew Swords on my Veteran turn one a lot of the time. We play 7 more copies if we need them. By using STP on our Explorer, they're pretty much saying "I plan to end the game before you can resolve your big threats", but at the same time they aren't developing their own board position to the point where that's a pressing issue.

I'd be much more scared of "Land, go" or "Land, Top" than "Land, Swords" from a Miracles opponent.
I'd be much more scared of "Land, Vial" or "Land, Mom" than "Land, Swords" from a DnT opponent.
I'd be much more scared of "Land, Hierarch" or "Land, Deathrite" than "Land, Swords" from a Maverick / Bant opponent.

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Originally Posted by Navsi

Also copies of STP are a precious resource for our opponents. We play a lot of creatures that don't die to much other removal, or that demand answers.

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And what do we need to deploy those creatures..?

And for the last 2 decks - you run enough removal to deal with whatever they throw at you. Besides, your life total is another resource you can use. Especially the Rhino builds are very forgiving in that regard. Just take some hits in the face, lure them into overextending, X-for-1 them out of the water w/ a Deed and turn the game around w/ a couple of Rhinos.

Playing vet. first, that is pretty interesting. If my opp. does have chalice, that will be annoying but if explorer resolves then we can get ahead on mana. And if my opp. desn't have/play chalice, they have to waste resources killing vet. (which feels pretty good).

I guess I got caught up wanted to start shredding the hand as soon as possible sandbagging CT makes sense.

Thanks guys.

I agree with Navsi, I lead with Vet vs unknown too. It's not about being explosive, it's about establishing your gameplan.

In the abstract, yes Vet can eat a StP. But in a known meta the decks that will do that, namely Miracles and DnT, as Navsi rightly points out we don't necessarily want the trigger. I'd argue that DnT isn't as good a matchup as many people think. With mom protecting a Revoker on Deed and a bunch of mana from our vets, they can use equipment very effectively.

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Originally Posted by Whitefaces

I agree with Navsi, I lead with Vet vs unknown too. It's not about being explosive, it's about establishing your gameplan.

In the abstract, yes Vet can eat a StP. But in a known meta the decks that will do that, namely Miracles and DnT, as Navsi rightly points out we don't necessarily want the trigger. I'd argue that DnT isn't as good a matchup as many people think. With mom protecting a Revoker on Deed and a bunch of mana from our vets, they can use equipment very effectively.

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Agree as well. It depands on the hand as well. If you really need to get Vet to die then I play Cabal first.

Otherwise, if they spend one turn to StP our Vet, be my guest.

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Originally Posted by Ganfar

It depends on the hand as well.

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That above all else.

Yeah it depends on your hand. My logic goes something like this:

1. If I know my opponent's deck and it's a combo deck, play Therapy.
2. If I have multiple Veterans run one out
3. If I have a bad hand (<3 lands, no haymakers, no interaction, or no ramp effects), play SDT
4. If I really need a Vet trigger to get the hand to work, play something else or nothing
5. Otherwise, play Veteran.

Most of the time none of 1, 3, 4 are true, so Veteran is the thing I go for normally

Well sure, of course the hand will have an effect on this decision. But since we're discussing Vet, Therapy and SDT I'm assuming we have all three in the opener and vs unknown (so safe to assume otp too).

I think Nasvi summed up it well with his post. I would do the same if I had Vet, Therapy and SDT in my starthand.

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Originally Posted by Kobra_D

Playing vet. first, that is pretty interesting. If my opp. does have chalice, that will be annoying but if explorer resolves then we can get ahead on mana. And if my opp. desn't have/play chalice, they have to waste resources killing vet. (which feels pretty good).

I guess I got caught up wanted to start shredding the hand as soon as possible sandbagging CT makes sense.

Thanks guys.

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Against Eldrazi, I've found the game mainly revolves around whether I can trigger an early Vet or not. GSZ can be a life saver here if you are on the draw. If you get a mana jump then you are way safer. Gives you the speed you need to land a Deed, start chaining Rhino's, have the mana for a quick Sneak Attack, whatever your gameplan is. Pretty similar for stuff like Aggro Loam, where a Vet trigger gives you room to start opening up and deploying threats, safety from Wasteland, etc.

I'd only ever name Chalice on the blind t1 if I know I'm in a very peculiar Chalice-heavy meta.

+1 for leading with Vet. If I'm on the draw and my opponent plays Tundra Top, though, I will instantly slam Top if I have it, even if I'm not going to use it for a couple turns. The danger of our Top getting locked out Counterbalance is real, and our Top is very important in that matchup.

Has anyone done any testing with Renegade Rallier yet? Either in a standard Abzan (Stoneforge?) shell or one of the Protean Hulk Pod builds.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

If you really have no clue what your opponent is on, just wait until their first landdrop. That should give you enough to work with.

The point of the blind Brainstorm is that Brainstorm sees more play than CotV, hence giving you a better chance of hitting rather than whiffing. On the flipside, your opponent not having what you name with CT is usually a very good thing, so there's that.

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More than that, a Brainstorm effectively counters your flashback.

Another Thursday Night Legacy down. Similar matchups to the previous weeks, went up against Dredge (LED version this time), ANT, and Goblin Stompy. There were 8 of us who played, the meta was still utterly degenerate, field was:
ANT
ANT
Manaless Dredge
LED Dredge
Nic Fit (go me!)
Omnitell
Goblin Stompy
BR Reanimator

I ended up going 2-0-1 beating ANT/Stompy and somehow going to time against LED Dredge.

Finally made the Bojuka Bog and Strangleroot Geist changes. Bog has been great, it let me beat Dredge in G1 and it let me meaningfully interact against an attempted T2 win by ANT.

I'm pretty happy with a 2-0-1 against that field, and reinforces my decision that I'm taking the deck down the right path to be able to handle unfair matches. Crop Rotation has been pretty amazing. I'm not sure if my build is right, but including this card/package definitely feels right.

Earlier in the day I also split a few games against D&T, like usual I won the games where I could play my cards and lost the games where my mana was locked out. Elves remains unwinnable.

Edit:
ANT was close, in the end I only won the match due to pilot error, but I made a few mistakes as well.
Strangleroot Geist has been weird, not sure I like it yet but it's not horrible either.

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Originally Posted by Brael

More than that, a Brainstorm effectively counters your flashback.

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Meh, mindgames man! I've managed to hit the one card I didn't know after my opponent Brainstormed. When his faced turned to "WTF" I replied "I know everything!".

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Meh, mindgames man! I've managed to hit the one card I didn't know after my opponent Brainstormed. When his faced turned to "WTF" I replied "I know everything!".

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Those are always fun. Last night when I beat Stompy, in both games they went first they T1 Blood Mooned me. Beating that feels better than hitting 3 of the same card on a blind Therapy.