[Primer] Dredge

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

My opinion might not be too popular, but I don't much like Firestorm or other removal generally. We need it right away, we need to be able to pay for it, and it has to be the right kind of removal to actually do anything.

This is almost certainly a product of confirmation bias, but I've been happiest just bringing in Force of Will for LED. The window for it is narrower than for the other cards, but we don't have to throw mana at it, and it stops everything but Leyline. (It also gets mileage out of my pesky Narcomoebas, which really, really want me to hold them—much to my dismay.)

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Your statement on Firestorm applies to Force of Will too. "We need it right away, we need to be able to pay for it, and it has to be the right kind of [counterspell] to actually do anything".

I don't like this kind of approach towards the deck; makes more sense playing Manaless (together with the blue Shoal, since pitched to Narco stops RiP / Priest and pitched to GP stops Cage / Relic / DRS).
Was your Firestorm countered? Whatever, you already threw in the bin dredgers and stuff.

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Originally Posted by meffeo

Your statement on Firestorm applies to Force of Will too. "We need it right away, we need to be able to pay for it, and it has to be the right kind of [counterspell] to actually do anything".

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You're right, but I find Force to be more versatile, though you're right that it doesn't work as a discard outlet. When I posted before, I forgot to mention Force also doesn't stop Faerie Macabre, but that, Extirpate, and Leyline are the only cards it won't answer. I think it's a matter of preference; I'm definitely keeping my Firestorms around, but I don't think I'd want more than three. I find it to be much more finicky, though I totally hear why people don't like Force of Will.

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Originally Posted by ConBro

Yeah, it would definitely be a swap with Firestorm as the removal option. So, you are not using LEDs or Breakthroughs until later so you can keep Firestorm in hand and clear the elves? Huh. I had not been playing it that slowly. I am probably too aggressive and not patient enough in sideboard games.

Would you agree that Firestorm is better for clearing multiple creatures, but Crippling Fatigue is better for killing individual problem creatures (such as containment priest)? Is it down to metagame, or is Firestorm just miles ahead overall such that it's just wrong to be going with CF over Firestorm? Don't get me wrong: I'm using 4x Firestorm. I'm not on some crusade for CF. Just trying to get a better feel for the strengths and weaknesses we are building on. I'm just not often using Firestorm to kill more than one creature, so I'm a little lost.

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I use Firestorm depending on game state.
(Example) Elves & Infect often depend on certain cards to go stupid, so a well timed Firestorm is where I aim to be on t2 or 3.
I've used it plenty of times after I bring back Icky's the first time - Firestorm is a board wipe, I lose my bridges, but we still get zombies. :tongue:

I don't like CF, 2 mana + CF in the grave for only a -2/-2 is too conditional for me. Landing more than 1 land isn't consistent, especially when you consider that cards like Thalia & Wasteland exist. I like Firestorm, but I don't side it in very often, just for the matchups where it offers a large swing.

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

You're right, but I find Force to be more versatile, though you're right that it doesn't work as a discard outlet. When I posted before, I forgot to mention Force also doesn't stop Faerie Macabre, but that, Extirpate, and Leyline are the only cards it won't answer. I think it's a matter of preference; I'm definitely keeping my Firestorms around, but I don't think I'd want more than three. I find it to be much more finicky, though I totally hear why people don't like Force of Will.

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I agree with all above - as another FoW player (mostly, but I change my dredge deck on a whim) I can back up Ron here. It's not the best choice here in Dredge, but it has opened up lines of play that I really like to have. FoW is just better at stopping terminal stuff, I wouldn't waste it on stuff we can grind against, I save them in hand for stuff like Show n Tell, Infernal Tutor, RiP, Cage etc.

I'm currently in a situation where I can't decide what is wrong and what is right.
In the last two weeks I found myself playing different lists with all the variations (0 to 4 Careful studies, 0 to 4 Pimps, 0 to 4 Street Wraiths) and I get similar (good) results in the end.
How can I learn to be more analytical?
Should I consider a hand with Pimp and no lootings worse than a hand with a single looting effect?
Should I take note of the situations where a careful study in my graveyard would be better as a Pimp or Wraith for an Ichorid trigger?
I'm starting to think that without a real analytic study, choosing between the various flavors is only a matter of superstition about the strength of a certain card.

Help me, my zombie friends.

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Originally Posted by Pische

I'm currently in a situation where I can't decide what is wrong and what is right.
In the last two weeks I found myself playing different lists with all the variations (0 to 4 Careful studies, 0 to 4 Pimps, 0 to 4 Street Wraiths) and I get similar (good) results in the end.
How can I learn to be more analytical?
Should I consider a hand with Pimp and no lootings worse than a hand with a single looting effect?
Should I take note of the situations where a careful study in my graveyard would be better as a Pimp or Wraith for an Ichorid trigger?
I'm starting to think that without a real analytic study, choosing between the various flavors is only a matter of superstition about the strength of a certain card.

Help me, my zombie friends.

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I did this with another deck, so I am sure it would work here. I make a thing in excel that tracks the following (goldfishing usually, but not always):
-damage done each turn
-turns until lethal damage dealt
-play/draw
-mulligan (and how many times)
-times xxxx card is cast in a particular game
-times xxxx card is "successful" when cast in a particular game (meaning, it provided a net benefit and wasn't a dud - was more of an issue in the other deck).
(repeat last two as needed for cards being tested).

Its total geek mode, but its how I do things. Then i just play it and document it and when you change it up, repeat the process with the new card and see if the win percentages or turns until lethal changes by a material amount.

That or just play it a shit ton of times against other decks and track win%. that's probably the more fun but less robust way to do it.

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Originally Posted by ronco

I did this with another deck, so I am sure it would work here. I make a thing in excel that tracks the following (goldfishing usually, but not always):
-damage done each turn
-turns until lethal damage dealt
-play/draw
-mulligan (and how many times)
-times xxxx card is cast in a particular game
-times xxxx card is "successful" when cast in a particular game (meaning, it provided a net benefit and wasn't a dud - was more of an issue in the other deck).
(repeat last two as needed for cards being tested).

Its total geek mode, but its how I do things. Then i just play it and document it and when you change it up, repeat the process with the new card and see if the win percentages or turns until lethal changes by a material amount.

That or just play it a shit ton of times against other decks and track win%. that's probably the more fun but less robust way to do it.

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Raw simulations are likely better since the deck is hardly interacted with. and anecdotal evidence is just that, anecdotal. the replacement exercise is worthwhile to evaluate in certain situations. i used ot do this with storm and a flipped/ different print cantrip to represent spell X where X was whatever i was considering at the time, to ever see if that would have been relevant. overall magic is a very random game so small smaple sizes of real games or goldfish will be the death of your experiment. dredge is built to get the engine going and keep it going. so whatever gets you to that state best is probably best

some cards have better value in certain metas due to resistance encountered, The general rule I've heard is looting focused is faster (better for combo) and wraith/pimp is better at recurring ichorid (better v DRS/ more consistent long tail). the best i can offer is maybe sticking with one version for a while and think about what the card swap would be and when it would be better in each of your games. it is some mental gymnastics but probably opens up lines for multiple versions so they become autopilot

Nice one ronco.

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Originally Posted by ThomasDowd

...the deck is hardly interacted with.

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Do you mean goldfishing, or that the LED-dredge is "hardly interacted with" by an opponent?

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Originally Posted by ThomasDowd

...some cards have better value in certain metas due to the resistance encountered

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Agreed. Force of Will is a good example of this.
I would add that if you have a lot of combo/storm in you meta, then the faster you are the better.

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Originally Posted by Pische

Help me, my zombie friends.

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The differences in the cards you might choose, for me, comes down to repetition and varied opponents. And you'll eventually get bored of whatever list and want to try different stuff for the sake of it - I do anyway.

I do a lot of goldfishing and record important stuff like mulligans taken, fast starts, how many turns to reach 8 zombies (I find 8 tends to be murderous against most decks). Against humans I record what decks I win/lose to, what hate I lose to, any shortcomings of the deck or misplays, when I may have won but snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. Just the basics really, but mostly I go with *feel* when I play against humans who know how to beat dredge, so I try and make sure the deck (and my play) stands up.

I was pleasantly surprised trying out the 4xWraith, 4xPimp, 0xStudy list lately, as when I played against 3 people I've played with over the years, who know I'm on dredge or combo 90% of the time before I even sit down, the deck was able to not only stand up and get some heat on the table, it kept on bringing the heat whether I had bridges or not.
FWIW, my recent night out excluded Prized Amalgam, but I think this version might benefit from it more than a Study list.
I'm going to another cards night this evening, I'll be subbing in 2xPA, with 3 of Pimp & Wraith.

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Originally Posted by Pische

I'm currently in a situation where I can't decide what is wrong and what is right.
In the last two weeks I found myself playing different lists with all the variations (0 to 4 Careful studies, 0 to 4 Pimps, 0 to 4 Street Wraiths) and I get similar (good) results in the end.
How can I learn to be more analytical?
Should I consider a hand with Pimp and no lootings worse than a hand with a single looting effect?
Should I take note of the situations where a careful study in my graveyard would be better as a Pimp or Wraith for an Ichorid trigger?
I'm starting to think that without a real analytic study, choosing between the various flavors is only a matter of superstition about the strength of a certain card.

Help me, my zombie friends.

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I think that people will often defend their lists to the death until enough people run the numbers, play the deck, and put up results proving an optimal configuration. I think the Wraith vs Study argument could boil down to play-style, comfort, prevailing trends, meta-game, and as you said, superstition. Which is objectively better could be a percentage small enough to be statistically insignificant. I know that I like Wraiths because I play them in Manaless and I love to feed my Ichorids with them, so I will use them, but that is definitely informed by Comfort and Play-Style more than win percentage.

Hey guys is there a discord chat for this thread?

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Hi all,

I had two staples tournaments for December. I believe I went 3-3 in the first tournament which wasn't too exciting. However, 2nd tournament was a lot more successful for sure. I changed my list a little going back to an idea I had which I might have mentioned here earlier as well which was to cut out all Breakthrough in favor of Wraith. Breakthrough was the cut instead of Study as Study is a more consistent solid play on turn 1s than breakthrough would be outside of pairing with LED; want to start with strong keeps and mitigate mulligans as much as possible. Also in my meta fair decks reign over combo so It didn't feel like I would miss the slight speed loss. Also returned to 4x Ichorid and cut out the 2x Amalgam to make deck space. The DRS trump was going to be Wraith now.

Here is the list:http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=17852&d=310659&f=LE

There were a few people that did in fact get blown out by Street Wraith. To me it felt like Stifle in that if my opponents didn't play around it they would be punished severely. People either forgot about it or they made the decision to not play around it.

Btw contagion in the sb has been dope af at least to me lol. I've always had my gripe with Firestorm so this card has been a welcome removal spell. The newly added needle was also relevant in a match as I was able to Needle a Jitte that would have rekt me. Rounds went as follows (if you have any specific questions please feel free to ask):

R1:
Deathblade W
Record: 1-0
R2:
Manaless Dredge W
Record: 2-1
R3:
Elves W
Record: 3-0
R4:
Delver Variant W
Record: 4-0
R5:
Lands L
Record: 4-1
R6:
Esper Delver D
Record: 4-1-1
R7:
Food Chain W
Record: 5-1-1

I Seeded 3rd after swiss which was great going into top 8 as I would be on the play most often.
Top 8:

Quarters: Infect W
Semis: Food Chain W

Split the finals with Vidianto.

Dredge on boys!

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Tbh the only real core of the most recent dredge builds appears to be the following imo:

4x Bridge from Below
4x Lions Eye Diamond
4x Faithless Looting
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Narcomoeba
4x Golgari Grave Troll
4x Golgari Thug
4x Stinkweed Imp

All else is a slight variation of Ichorid, Putrid Imp, Prized Amalgam, Careful Study, Breakthrough, Dread Return, Street Wraith and the mana base which is a combination of gold lands and either 2-4 Cephalid Coliseum.

Also got lucky at the last legacy tournament of the year here in the Philippines. These were my match ups:

Rd1 2-0 Win vs BUG Delver
Rd2 2-0 Win vs Eldrazi Aggro
Rd3 2-0 Win vs MUD
Rd4 ID
Rd5 ID

Finished first after the swiss and was paired against Big Eldrazi. Won that match 2-0 before we split the top 4 prizes and called it a day.

Here's the list I've been running this year. With the only changes I've made this year is with the sideboard and that one time I successfully tested Dragonlord Kolaghan in the main.

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return

4 Mana Confluence
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 City of Brass

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Serenity
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Wear / Tear
1 Ashen Rider
1 Memory's Journey
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

Hey all been testing a different I guess style of dredge using lotus petals over Lions eye diamonds. The results have been surprisingly great. The control petal gives to control how many cards you discard instead going all in on a LED is amazing. It also gives explosive starts like land looting then petal breakthrough or another looting effect. They also allow you to utilize sideboard cards betters. I really think the petal version is superior to LED and will share my data with match results when i get everything all together. I also wanna test catheric reunion as thats now a viable option with petal.

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Originally Posted by militiaman89

Hey all been testing a different I guess style of dredge using lotus petals over Lions eye diamonds. The results have been surprisingly great. The control petal gives to control how many cards you discard instead going all in on a LED is amazing. It also gives explosive starts like land looting then petal breakthrough or another looting effect. They also allow you to utilize sideboard cards betters. I really think the petal version is superior to LED and will share my data with match results when i get everything all together. I also wanna test catheric reunion as thats now a viable option with petal.

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You really think so?

Diamond is not used for it`s mana ability so I have a hard time understanding why Petal would be a good swap for it but by all means if it works for you keep playing and posting it please :D

Lotus Petal doesn't do anything on its own to help the gameplan. At its worst, LED can be used to start your engine by discarding your hand so that you can start dredging. IMO, petal is a nice addition to Dredge (if you can squeeze it in) but not as a replacement for LED. I am interested to hear more about your results though.

Most games i have asked myself if LED would have improved my game where I had lotus petal and every time the answer has been no. Try it for yourself and see what you find

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Originally Posted by militiaman89

Most games i have asked myself if LED would have improved my game where I had lotus petal and every time the answer has been no.

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That may be, but you're really just making a case for running Lotus Petal, not for cutting LED.

I've been interested in trying some number of Lotus Petals myself, but I don't know what I'd cut to put them in. (Before anyone asks, no, I wouldn't cut LED, at least not from the maindeck. I 'board out LEDs for other stuff, but I think it's absolutely crucial to have in the main.) I definitely think Petal is a card that warrants further testing.

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

That may be, but you're really just making a case for running Lotus Petal, not for cutting LED.

I've been interested in trying some number of Lotus Petals myself, but I don't know what I'd cut to put them in. (Before anyone asks, no, I wouldn't cut LED, at least not from the maindeck. I 'board out LEDs for other stuff, but I think it's absolutely crucial to have in the main.) I definitely think Petal is a card that warrants further testing.

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I have it in my sideboard and its only for combating faster combo decks. I wouldn't think that it be a replacement. They make your mulligans worse and can hinder you if you need a permanent mana source.

Most of yhe time when i have played led they are yhe first thing to come out as they are a liability going all in vs most gravehate. The only card that increases in value is faithless looting with led but with petal the ability to cast multiple looting abilitys becomes possible without having to go all in on a single hope of a looting resolving

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I agree if the grave hate is a relic or tormod's crypt that is already in play. Going a little more broke is better vs surgical or 2 mana hate permanents, that your opp might draw or couldn't cast yet. You can often create a big enough board and discard their hand to win, if you go all in on t1 vs a rip deck. One surgical is also easily beaten when you flipped your whole deck.
In my experience, you will see surgicals, rips, containment priests and scavenging oozes much more often than crypts, spellbombs and relics. I think that the 4th LED is better than the 1st Petal, but the 1st Petal might be better than the 13th or 14th land, especially in fast matchups.

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Originally Posted by militiaman89

Most of yhe time when i have played led they are yhe first thing to come out as they are a liability going all in vs most gravehate. The only card that increases in value is faithless looting with led but with petal the ability to cast multiple looting abilitys becomes possible without having to go all in on a single hope of a looting resolving

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Sure I board them out a lot of time as well, but that makes sense because of what you said "going all in vs gravehate" is a liability. My argument for having LEDs is strictly for the main deck and I'm convinced that since the printing of Faithless looting that if you're not running them main you're doing it wrong.

The only few times I recall a successful list with Petals main deck was from Yomura Syuuta from Japan in the KMC and Known Magician's Clan Series. http://www.mtgtop8.com/search

Still though he played both Petals AND LED in the same list. Which echoes what Orim said that the 1st Petal is probably just better than the 13th land etc..