I would but I honestly haven't done a damn bit of testing (and the testing I did was so/so). Plus, it might be too close to Pikulas to deserve it's own thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by URABAHN
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I would but I honestly haven't done a damn bit of testing (and the testing I did was so/so). Plus, it might be too close to Pikulas to deserve it's own thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by URABAHN
What you don't understand is that Goblins is a very bad defensive deck. Its creatures suck on defense - Goblin Piledriver, Goblin Matron, and even Goblin Ringleader are only 1/2, 1/1, or 2/2 on defense. Goblins just doesn't do well when someone else is the aggressor against the deck. If you've played Threshold and started swinging with 4/4s and 3/3s then you know how hard it is for the Goblin player to win. That is even more true with a first turn Negator. It simply puts Goblins on the defensive because they must block or die. Goblins also has very little way to generate pressure in the early game (except for a Lackey that hits) and this lack of offense in the very early game causes it to go on defense which makes it a tough matchup. Negator on turn 3 is very strong as well, because a turn 2 Sinkhole can buy much needed time and setting your goblin opponent back one more turn without Warchief or Ringleader. Suicide Black is the beatdown in the matchup - and you have to see that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom
Screw this thread. I'm out.
That is beside the point. Goblin's does run Gempalm Incinerator typical in the form of 4s in the main. Lets not forgot Mogg Fanatic. Some builds play Pyrokinesis in the main, or least in the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnwarA101
So sure goblins aren't good on defense, but a few of them dub as burn. Which as you stated earlier, turns Negator into a toilet cake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnwarA101
What you donīt understand that against aggro decks Goblins are good in defense as well.When they set up a Goblin King their creatures will trade with your ones.Also bad that they have run a full set of Incinirators which will take down every single creature you are running.Also you wonīt be able to play that aggressive against a Deck with Warchiefs,Piledrivers and Golbin Lackey.Goblin Sharpshooter,Mogg Fanatic,Siege Gang Commander,Sparsmith,Kiki are also quite good defensive cards..
Quote:
Originally Posted by kabal
Anwar is fully aware of Gempalm Incinerator, Mogg Fanatic, and everything else in Goblins. The fact remains that Negator is solid against the deck, and if you think otherwise, you're discrediting hours and hours of playtesting and tournament results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.ugs
On the defense, Goblins has very slow board development up until turn 4 or 5. The 1-drops are all tiny 1/1s, there are almost no 2-drops (the one they have is an abysmal 1/2), and the 3-drops are also small for their cost. An early Negator that is backed up by just a little disruption (a Sinkhole, Hymn, or a removal spell) will look very large in comparison to the Goblin player's board. A Gempalm Incinerator will probably not cycle for more than 2 damage, and will probably take up an entire turn's worth of mana.
If Goblins blocks the Negator when it comes in, the Negator won't die, and all of the Goblins will. At this point, any extra disruption or threats that Sui is able to play before or after attacking with Negator will put Goblins in a very bad position. Gempalm Incinerator is pretty weak when there are no Goblins in play, and Siege-Gang Commander is pretty weak when you're dead before you can cast him.
I'm not saying that Goblins will never win on the back of Negator's drawback. If Sui stumbles in the first few turns and Goblins develops a decent-sized board, Incinerator on a Negator will win the game. However, this happens relatively rarely, and it usually happens in games that Suicide was going to lose, anyway.
Again, Anwar, powergamer, and I have a lot of experience with this list of Suicide Black against Goblins. I suggest that you try to gain some experience yourself before dismissing what we have to say.
Gempalm Incinerator requires Goblins to be in play. The build on the first page of this thread runs both 7 removal spells and pithing needle all of which stop Incinerator or make Incinerator dead in the early game by destroying Goblins creatures in response. I will grant you any version playing Pyrokinesis in the maindeck will absolutely ravage Negator.Quote:
Originally Posted by kabal
Many of these cards either cost 3 or more mana (Warchief, Sharpshooter, Siege-Gang, Goblin King) which means that there are many ways for the Suicide to handle them such as Sinkhole (which buys another turn or more), Hymn to Tourach, 7 removal spells, and Pithing Needle if it is being played in the maindeck. I've already answered the Incinerator issue above.Quote:
What you don´t understand that against aggro decks Goblins are good in defense as well.When they set up a Goblin King their creatures will trade with your ones.Also bad that they have run a full set of Incinirators which will take down every single creature you are running.Also you won´t be able to play that aggressive against a Deck with Warchiefs,Piledrivers and Golbin Lackey.Goblin Sharpshooter,Mogg Fanatic,Siege Gang Commander,Sparsmith,Kiki are also quite good defensive cards..
I'm not claiming Goblins to be a positive matchup. I stated it was about 40/60 and I'm sticking with that because I have done extensive testing. The testing can vary wildly especially in game 1 because Dark Ritual is so important.
Forewords
Ok, i admit this deck has been criticized endless times (and eventually discarded as a good contender), but i really believe it has potential.
Heck, Pikula played something similiar and now everybody loves homebrew, why is that no one considered again "good-old suicide"?
I know this archetype is older than my magic experience (and i regret a little posting it, since i really believe Legacy needs some more archetype innovation), and this particular deck has very few novelties, but i feel it includes some considerations others of his kind were missing...
Last: this decklist is about more than a year old, still i evaluated changes after the release of the newer sets and the evolving of the metagame. Unfotunately my playtesting result are old and few, since legacy isn't played in my area.
Decklist
// Lands
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
10 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
// Acceleration
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
// Creatures
4 Hypnotic Specter
2 Withered Wretch
// Spells
3 Rancid Earth
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress
2 Chainer's Edict
2 Engineered Plague
4 Contagion
2 Consume Spirit
3 Infernal Contract
// Sideboard
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Withered Wretch
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Nevinyrral's Disk
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
as you can notice the deck is really suicidal, and not just a black stompy, it counts on a heavy disruption package early game (even at the cost of card disadvantage/heavy life loss) to impede the opponent's game.
Card Analisys
4 Mishra's Factory
even tought it can hurt the mana base it's really a "must 4-ofs" in a fast aggro format, useful as a "fat" blocker or a beater.
3 Wasteland
in a format of tight mana bases where every land drop counts and full of non-basics who wouldn't want it? 3-ofs because of the complementary spells.
10 Swamp
well, the card is self explanatory :tongue: , the number should be correct.
1 Volrath's Stronghold
in the awful case we go in the long game, always useful.
4 Chrome Mox
we need much acceleration, even if it means card disadvantage, and the mox has staying power. We need 4 to get it early, unfortunately it's terrible later on.
4 Dark Ritual
what does make the deck good? Dark Ritual speed has a part in it...
4 Hypnotic Specter
someone underrate this, but a decent cover he's really good. Just don't power him out in the first turn, unless you know what you'r doing!
2 Withered Wretch
2/2 for BB... not really that awesome, still he has a really good ability...
that's why only 2-ofs.
3 Rancid Earth
land destruction at 3cc isn't good, expecially in mid-game? Try this, expecially with an EPlague on board. 3 looked like the right amount.
4 Sinkhole
coupled with Wasteland, supplemented with Rancid Earth, maybe it'll teach other decks to cheat less on their mana bases...
4 Hymn to Tourach
Misdirection is it's only weak spot, otherwise it's goood, can even hit land drops! Graveyard based decks will thank you, that's why whe have Wretches and the sb.
4 Duress
a "must 4-ofs".
2 Chainer's Edict
untargeted creature kill, sorcery speed, but reusable in the dreaded long game.
2 Engineered Plague
really underrated! It's not needed in multiples to be effective nor it's useful only against goblins. Makes opposing creatures smaller and has a good sinergy with Rancid Earth and Contagion.
4 Contagion
not really card disadvantage since it's usually a 2-for-2 tradeoff. Instant creature removal... it's good, what else can i say? Only pity is the black card has to be rfg and thus doesn't help Rancid Earth.
2 Consume Spirit
direct damage and only source of life gain. Useless in the start (that's why i'm not running a full set), but you'll really want one later, trust me.
3 Infernal Contract
before flaming read the card! It gives you 4 cards, NOW! at the cost of 10 life (if you are still at 20), an average of 2.5 life/card. The only mean to drop an hell of disruption at your opponent, refill your hand and start again. Only problem is the BBB cc, which can be difficult at times.
// Sideboard
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
i don't really recall why i packed these.
SB: 2 Withered Wretch
when graveyard hate isn't enought.
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
usually for goblins. Or any other silly tribal deck.
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
play it wisely, and will wreck the opponent leaving you nearly unscathed.
SB: 4 Nevinyrral's Disk
sometimes i found i wanted a reset button, expecially since i can't touch artifacts or enchantments on board.
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
maybe gy hate is never enought.
There are no real win conditions you can really depend on 4 hippies and wretches. Factories are to vulnerable to wasteland. Why do you have acceleration if there are no creatures to drop with it?
Various Cards Choiches
Fetchlands
they were left out since i feeled the land ratio was good enought without any thinnig.
Cabal Therapy
how many times it's better then Duress if i ain't got creatures to sacrifice to flashback it? NONE.
Nantuko Shade
while it sure wuold help the late game, early on it's totally useless: with no mana to spare on this it's a 2/1 (so no blocking) without evasion (no attacking) and no usefull abilities.
Dark Confidant
welcome, mr. Overrated! It's only advantages are the casting cost, and the "add to your hand (instead of drawing)" that could couple with Chains of Mephistopheles. Being a creature (a 2/1 ever more!) and losing you variable life means in this format it's plain worst than Phyrexian Arena. Plus as does Phyrexian Arena, it brings extra cards too slowly for my likings.
Phyrexian Negator
while i really miss a fast finisher, he really isn't going to get it given the format.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3eowulf
I play goblins in almost every major tournament I go to. If you drop first turn negator on a goblin player it is very hard to fight back unless I have 2 fanatics in my opening hand. Nantuko Shade would be better in you deck since you run chrome mox(which suck BTW) and dark ritual.
@ calosso:
The acceleration is to power out such disruption the opponent can't recover.
If anyones wastes my factories it means they have even more lands now.
Unfortunately a faster kill condition is really what is missing, still hippies, wretches and factories (and maybe consume spirits) are pretty good at killing, even if really slow.
I really miss the point in which a first turn negator is ever good vs. any deck with cheap creatures...
And shade isn't good if i'm spending my mana to disrupt you. I have no mana to sink into her.
There is already a thread discussing classic Suicide Black here.
Your deck looks more like a Monoblack Control list, though. A good build of that can be found here.
If you do want to stick with a "Suicide Black" (aggressive) strategy, then you definitely need more threats and a faster clock. Phyrexian Negator and Nantuko Shade are the best threats black has available in this format.
To get you started in the right direction, here is AnwarA101's list from the thread I linked:
//Disruption
3 Pithing Needle
4 Hymn To Tourach
4 Sinkhole
//The Legion of Doom
4 Wretched Anurid
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Phyrexian Negator
//Removal
4 Vendetta
4 Diabolic Edict
//Mana
4 Dark Ritual
4 Wasteland
17 Swamps
Anwar has since gone back to running the full 4 copies of Duress, cutting the Needles (to the board) and a removal spell.
This deck has enjoyed moderate success at tournaments, and is a good place to start at with the Sui archetype. It does take some getting used to, since it relies heavily on its opening hands and sometimes has to play into an opponent's potential outs pretty severely. However, the deck is very capable of ending the game quickly against a stumbling opponent, which holds true to the concept of Suicide Black.
thank you for the directions, i couldn't find AnwarA101 thread :tongue:
could any moderator attach this thread to that?
even though this looks like more Control i ensure you it plays like suicide.
plus, if after long playtesting you still consider the Negator worth a main slot i can give it a chance... even i don't know what to cut
maybe:
+4 Negators
-2 Wretches
-2 ?
Done and done. Threads merged.
~ Nightmare
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3eowulf
If you are going to run Negator then I would try something similar to the list that ObFreely just referenced. If you plan to play a more Control version of the deck play the deck close to what is listed in the Train Wreck deck list. I don't see how adding Negator but keeping all that creature removal will really work. For the "Suicide concept" to work you need enough threats to actually kill your opponent quickly. I think you really need to pick which direction to go in. You can't just run 4 Negator and 4 Hypnotic Specters that won't be enough threats. Its just a choice in strategy - you seem somewhere in between.
Is there any other threat fast and efficient enought to warrant inclusion?
How i am expected to keep my creatures going without creature removal in an aggro enviroment?
As long as the opponent is playing threshold it's pretty easy, but when it comes to a zoo or a goblin player the board is theirs if i ain't got enought removal...
I'm playing the threats that I think are fast and efficient. Wretched Anurid, Phyrexian Negator, Nantuko Shade, and Hypnotic Specter are all fairly fast and efficient (except probably Hyppie). You are the aggro deck against Goblins and Zoo. You play a a threat and you try to protect it with disruption - Hymn, Sinkhole, Wasteland, Vendetta, Edict, etc. Its simply the way the deck plays. If you want to go control then Train Wreck plays plenty of removal spells to handle creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by 3eowulf
Apart form the fact that my list (considering Mishras) has only 4x threats less that the one suggested by Obfuscate Freely (so, do you think Mishras should be removed for another, better creature?)...
Do you really think that vs. Goblins, and expecially Zoo (which has much better creatures) our role is beatdown?
My list figures only 8 creature removal (2xChainer's, 2xEPlague, 4xContagion, Rancid Earth and Consume Spirit are not), as much as OFreely's, how it's too much? The major difference is it drops a beater to add some draw and a bit more disruption...
(by the way, don't you think Contagion is superior to Vendetta?)
Plague isn't really a removal spell versus zoo.