well, I would love to discuss some ideas for the MD, as I've got something weird myself =) Send a PM my way or catch me on AIM. The SN is: radikal designs
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well, I would love to discuss some ideas for the MD, as I've got something weird myself =) Send a PM my way or catch me on AIM. The SN is: radikal designs
I've been doing some quiet, side work on this lately, and I think I've managed to make some significant improvements to the deck. 1. Cut Nomad Stadium for Zuran Orb. 2. Added Azusa, Lost but Seeking and Volraths Stronghold. 3. Added God's Eye, Gate to the Rekai. 1 and 3 have an amazing level of synergy together, allowing you to easily, uncounterably, and for zero mana produce 3-4 tokens and 6-8 life per turn. Orb also does a real number against almost all forms of aggro, I think its a long overdue addition to the deck. Azusa is just a double exploration that can get Strongholded back very easily. When she's in play, even if she's killed immediately it really turbocharges things if you just kick out the extra lands before passing priority. I've completely come around to Watcher's views on Witness/Stronghold, and might get to the point where I agree about Coliseum as well, since its less important with the Witness' around.
Also, there is a recently spoiled card, "Yawgmoth's Tomb" its a legendary land that simply says "all lands are swamps in addition to their other types." Has some massive mana implications with Coffers, but I'm not sure what this deck would do with that that would improve its game.
Ehhh I'm kinda touch and go with the Tomb, but it would be nice, if I swing the deck back around to G/B/U/r/w instead of G/R/U/W/b. Anyway, Riftstone Portal is 100% better at this time anyway since produces both W and G, and this is a really good thing since it's 2 of the main colors for the deck instead of 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by morgan_coke
I've been kicking around ideas for other MD win conditions and it looks like God's Eye might do the trick, but I'm still not overly happy about Zuran Orb in my testing.
Dia has been using Ancient Tombs to a greater effect with a more higher end MD. He's told me that he is now running A full set of Thirsts and Intutitions along with 2 MD Smokestacks and 2 MD Humilities. Now don't get me wrong I loved Humility in this deck when I was playing with it 6 months ago but I think the format has really changed from it. But since the Staxx board has worked even better for me since I started running 2 MD City of Traitors, I've been trying to slowly figure out how to get a better idea of what would be best in each match anyway.
Flagstones of Trokair would be a good match for Zunan Orb and Smokestack as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by morgan_coke
I don't want to be to inflammatory, but there is a question bugging me for some time, if stax board is so good, why play this over stax in the first place. Which matchups are better.
Nah, that's not even close to inflamatory. The main reason to play this over Staxx is due to it's Aggro and Aggro-Control Match-ups. This deck has an amazing match against Goblins and Thresh. Thresh can't usually handle the recursion from Anicent Ruins and Crucible especially. And Against Goblins all they really have is the huge alpha-strike w/ Wasteland, but we have the Pithing Needle, Constant Mists, Pyroclasm and StP to handle most of thier threats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vetinari
But there are weaknesses that have appeared for me. First off, is the burn match-up or anyone packing high amounts of burn alone. Post-Board, yeah it becomes better because you switch over partially but, Price of Progress is nasty unless you have a Zuran Orb in play (This is the biggest thing that I have loved about Zuran Orb so far). Second and this is my own personal opinion, No 2 people can really agree on what list to play. (I consider this a weakness espeically since that I consider this deck NOT in New and Developmental but in the open Forum and it should be more heavily discussed among everyone here. The deck has come a LONG way from where it started, and considering half of the other decks listed over there I have no problems just rewriting this over there w/ full description of my current list.)
Staxx parts have played roles in this deck before. I used to run 2 Smokestacks MD, Diablos last time I checked is currently running 2 Smokestacks w/ 1 Trinisphere MD. Now don't get me wrong here but if I see more Combo that what I would normally expect at a tourney I have no problems switching this over to the heavy Staxx version with all of the Anti-Aggro elements in the board.
Flagstones is ok in the deck. The bigger problem is that your going to have to commit more of your land over to Plains/Duals (I currently run only 4 targets for Flagstones).
Thanks for commenting and your suggestions, Vetinari. If you have anymore or anything else is bugging you about the deck don't be afraid to post'em here again.
The combo matchup for this deck is garbage which is the point of the stax pieces in the first place. Id rather play stax for a solid matchup against aggro/combo/control than just have a real good aggro matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vetinari
I've moved a lot closer to your builds lately watcher, this is what I'm running now:
Colored ManaLands - 18
3x Mox Diamond
4x Gemstone Mine
3x Wooded Foothills
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Riftstone Portal
1x Savannah
1x Taiga
1x Plateau
1x Tropical Island
1x Volcanic Island
1x Bayou
Non-Mana Lands - 10
1x Nantuko Monastery
1x God's Eye, Gate to the Reikai
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Academy Ruins
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Wasteland
1x Barbarian Ring
1x Nomad Stadium
1x Maze of Ith
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Creatures - 4
1x Asuza, Lost but Seeking
3x Eternal Witness
Tutors - 9
4x Gamble
3x Intuition
2x Crop Rotation
Permanents - 13
4x Exploration
3x Crucible of Worlds
1x Smokestack
1x Trinishpere <--- candidate for cutting/moving to board
1x Zuran Orb
1x Pithing Needle
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Engineered Explosives <--- candidate for cutting
Spells - 8
1x Life from the Loam
1x Ancient Grudge <--- might move to board
3x Pyroclasm
3x Swords to Plowshares
Sideboard - 16
2x Constant Mists
3x Trinishpere
4x Chalice of the Void <--- might drop to three
1x Pithing Needle
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Smokestack
1x Pyroclasm <--- could be cut
1x Krosan Grip <--- might become Ray of Revelation
1x Ghost Quarter
Right now the maindeck is 62 cards and the board is 16, which means I need to cut three cards total from the deck. Goblins is good pre board and a near bye postboard, even the newer green goblins builds with maindeck hooligans and boarded grips don't really pose that much of a threat. The following are some of the "locks" you can get against goblins, or any kind of hyper aggro for that matter. Constat Mists + Crucible/LftL. Glacial Chasm. Witness/Stronghold/Pyroclasm. And my personal favorite, Exploration/God's Eye/Zuran Orb/Crucible. The Ghost Quarters in the board are for decks with manabases similar to Thresholds, i.e., lots of fetches and duals backed up by 4-6 basics. Wastelock takes out the non-basics, then Quarterlock finishes off the rest of their lands. The Urborg is simply another way besides portal for the nonmana lands to kick out mana, tapping the Tabernacle for B is worse than tapping it for G/W, but better than not tapping it at all.
As far as the reasons to play this over full blown Stax, I'd say there are a couple. #1, Versatility. #2, Tutor power. #3, Recursion. This deck can do plenty of things Staxx can't (like recur and use barbarian ring four times in one turn, or maintain a stack at 2 with witness recursion.), and your game plan has more variety than the simple "prison lock them" theme. You gain a near bye vs. most forms of aggro while still having a decent chance vs. combo g2 and 3. And in most Legacy metas, theres a lot more aggro than combo.
Oh, and watcher, if you do flip this over to the open forum, i'm more than happy to contribute anything i can to what you have to say about the deck.
@Watcher - I'm aware that you've been an advocate for this deck and I've seen you play it at the monthly tourneys at the Dragon's Lair. I'm curious though, what's the best you ever done in those tournaments?
3rd/4th place 2 times.... all with older versions of the deck. I've come out first in swiss and I think it was 6th in swiss when it was Top 8. I haven't really played the newer version at a tourney yet, I'm going to play it at Running GAGG (even though the weather is going to suck).Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavius The Great
I'll post my list later on, I've got some interesting things that both myself and blitz have been sending back and forth.
Current list as of 2/10/06
1 Academy Ruins
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bayou
1 Cephalid Coliseum
2 City of Traitors
2 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
1 God's Eye, Gate to the Reikai
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Plateau
1 Riftstone Portal
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Mox Diamond
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Zuran Orb
3 Intuition
1 Constant Mists
3 Crop Rotation
3 Eternal Witness
4 Exploration
1 Life from the Loam
4 Gamble
2 Pyroclasm
4 Swords to Plowshares
Board:
1 Krosan Grip
4 Smokestack
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Null Rod
2 Constant Mists
4 Trinisphere
Currently the MD is 61 cards, and not to get into a fuss over, this is what I prefer for a board control deck with a high land count. (<SOAPBOX>I have made my case over on that thread and despite what opinion other people have over the whole 60 vs 61 card thing, I know it's a player thing not a deck thing.</SOAPBOX>)
Notes over main deck:
Ghost Quarter over Wasteland: Wasteland has been removed completely due to Pithing Needle. (I name Wasteland 9 times out of 10 vs Goblins to set the soft lock)
1 Zuran Orb and 0 Nomad Stadium: While it's good to have double the life gain, I've been finding that Z Orb is better overall especally when you look at Geddon and Dead Guy.
1 Explosives MD and 1 Krosan Grip SB: This is a little tougher to work with that what it seems. Explosives nails alot of stuff MD and while it's poor against Solidarity it's just about amazing in everyother match up. The Grip has been in the board since Time Spiral came out and I still haven't found a reason to take it out. Too many useful targets are out there and the Split Second ability has been amazing too.
0 Urborgs: If the deck was more toward Black than what I have it, it would be in the deck regardless, but I already have Riftstone Portal and I'm only playing 1 card that requires Black mana in the first place.
If there is any questions or other suggestions please please please post them, Thank You
I figure I might as well pitch in my 2 cents too. Watcher saw my last list but it wasn't posted, and it's updated a bit since then but isn't very different. I took a different approach than him (as well as the rest of the recent posters in this thread), but as always will supply reasonings with slots. Now, I haven't touched this in a while, as my focus has been on another deck of my glorious past :p, but I might as well show you guys anyway for insight or something:
4 Exploration
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Intuition
2 Crop Rotation
1 Life from the Loam
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pyroclasm
2 Smokestack
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Constant Mists
4 Mox Diamond
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Academy Ruins
1 Maze of Ith
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Nomad Stadium
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tranquil Thicket
2 Wasteland
1 Barbarian Ring
2 Nantuko Monastery
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
3 Taiga
Sideboard:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
1 Pyroclasm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
2 Boil
This style list focuses a lot more on speed and the early game rather than pushing for the slow, long game. I found when playing the earlier versions of the deck that without an explosive start the deck would fall short during the midgame to faster, more explosive decks. This was because often times the deck wasn't able to get going and hit its bombs until turn 3-5, and by then it would sometimes be too late.
New card choices:
- Ancient Tomb: A lot better than City of Traitors. Actually, I would like to take this time to slap anyone running City of Traitors in this deck. You run 25+ lands, and most of the time drop multiples a turn. City just dies. In most cases, the damage should not be an issue. Taking 8-10 damage isn't a huge deal when you seal up the game with Chasmlock. Plus, you don't take damage under Chasm either. Their speed boost easily make them worth it, for more consistant turn 1 and 2 Crucibles, Trinispheres, etc.
- Maze of Ith: Those of you who aren't running it I would probably recommend to do so, or at least give it another thought. The only reason I currently run it is because it shuts off the turn 1 Lackey and is awesome to Crop Rotation into. It's certainly better than Tabernacle for the non-mana anti-aggro slot.
- I went down to 1 Glacial Chasm because I feel the deck doesn't need to rely on it as much. Constant Mists made its way back into the deck, and its the stonecold nuts, so it isn't as necessary.
- Thirst for Knowledge: I really, really dislike Gamble. Don't get me wrong it's not bad, and I don't condemn anyone for running it, but a number of times I lost the card I fetched for and it sucked hard in topdeck mode - something this deck finds itself often in. One of the biggest issues I had with the deck early on is the lack of card advantage and always being in TD mode. Thirst is a great CA spell that fills up your hand and can dump lands into the yard if needbe. I just prefer raw CA over a possibly dead tutor.
- Smokestack: Insanely good in the deck, as many of you have already noticed. I don't know how I didn't add it to the original builds, because it's retarded. It's even more nice when you drop it turn 2-3 with Crucible backup. The card is great for those long games that stretch on and on and you eventually win the permanent war, but also very solid in the early game if you can secure it.
- Engineered Explosives: A gimme, really. You have the option of destroying anything from 0-4 cc in here, 5cc there really isn't anything to touch so that's fine. I was up to 3 in the maindeck, but decided Constant Mists was better and cut it down to 1 to squeeze them in. I'd personally love another in the MD, but can't find the room atm.
Constant Mists: Non-wastable Glacial Chasm. For the most part, an auto-win against Goblins or any aggro deck. Makes the deck a lot less reliant on Chasm too, which is convenient.
Sideboard:
Chalice/Trinisphere: Gimme. Combo is bad. These fight combo. Simple.
Boil: The other combo answer, but also good against any Islands deck. But mainly it's there for Solidarity. These might possibly become Rule of Law though.
Alright, now card choices that I didn't include:
- Eternal Witness/Volrath's Stronghold: After reading over the thread a bit it seems like you guys love this little combo. And you should, it's really good. I personally opted against it because it requires a little more bastardization of the manabase, as well as 3 non-land slots that I feel are rather weak. Control matchups should already be simple enough. Resolve Crucible and win. If you don't, you have Academy Ruins. My maindeck has 10+ non-land anwsers to aggro, and then you have Chasm and the other lands. It should be fine. The EW engine does nothing against combo, so that should be negated. Don't get me wrong constant recursion of all that stuff is insane, but I just feel it isn't necessary.
- Azusa: She's really good, but way too fragile. Every deck in the format would just pick her off on sight.
- God's Eye: Maybe I should look at this guy again, because it's a win that evades Pithing Needle, but I like the 2nd Nantuko Monastery over it. It allows you to throw nasty beats when you have to with 2 of them in play. However, God's Eye does have great synergy with Smokestack, so I'll have to look at it again.
- Ghost Quarter: Hell no. Just hell no. Wasteland is infinately better on all counts. So what if you Needle your own Wastelands, 9/10 matchups Wasteland is better. The ONLY time I would like Quarter more is if you have 3+ Exploration in play and are picking off lands until they don't have any left. And if you're doing that, you should've already won by then.
Gamble: This was pretty much explained under the Thirst for Knowledge comment, but to sum it up again it needs more cards in hand to work and is a terrible topdeck. I would at least try Brainstorm over Gamble.
Zuran Orb: This is a tough call, because it's essentially better than Nomad Stadium, but it can't be fetched by Crop Rotation. I'm not sure if it'll ever make it in or not, but for now I like Stadium.
- Humility: I really feel these should find a place in the maindeck somewhere, because they make every creature-oriented matchup easier. Plus, Monastery is still nasty under it. Issue is, if I add it it would be over EE and possibly a Smokestack, and I'm not sure if I'd want to do that.
I'm probably forgetting to add something in the middle of all this, but for now this post should suffice.
Watcher,
in response to an earlier post you had about there not being one build of the deck, i'd say all three of us have moved closer to executing the same theory, even if we do use different tactics to get there.
Diablos,
completely agree with you about city, ran some for a little while, didn't work at all, i am however somewhat slightly frightened by the life loss.
overall there seem to be two basic versions of the deck, and the card that divides them is Gamble. One version runs Gamble, which almost necessitates the inclusion of witness and stronghold. The other version runs blue card draw, which negates the necessity of witness and stronghold. The removal suite (3-4 StP and 'Clasm), the majority of the board (3spheres and chalices), and the prescription against goblins/other aggro (chasm and mists) as well as the long game (smokestack). Ok, this last paragraph doesn't really say anything that intelligent, but it does point out the similarities in all the builds, which to me seems to be a sign that things are progressing towards one or two "idealish" builds.
I still like the first list ever posted the best. Why change it so much?
because that list can't beat combo. ever.
Nah the last paragraph made sense, strangely. We really are not that far away from each other in a sense. But some of us have feelings for what is better in the deck. But the 'How we get to the late game' is pretty solid between the 3 of us here.Quote:
Originally Posted by morgan_coke
@ Jugs:
The Burning Wish board was nice espeically vs aggro and aggro-control but there was only one thing you would have to hope to do vs any combo. Hope they sputter and Echoes them out. It was nice for what was going on at the time, but it was found to be more of a win-more situation, especially since Time Spiral gave us Artifact Recursion (Academy Ruins), a different way to look at the combo match-up (Staxx Switch-over) and a different point of view MD (a move more over to Crucible w/ Life from the Loam back-up)
Doesn't this deck auto lose to combo anyway because your deck takes like 15 turns to win and your opponent has soo many turns to wish up an answer for whatever you played to try and stop them. In a deck like this I would play gilded light against combo because answers in permanent form don't seem like they do much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ta Jugs
Yes, game 1 is usually a scoop. But post-board the match turns around greatly. 1st and 2nd turn bombs of Trini and Chalice are amazing vs most combo decks and while yeah the deck is slow as paint drying, you usually have a better time winning (Like Sun Tower (R/G Uba Staxx)) vs combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living
Which is why I recommend gilded light. I mean in extended teps auto loses to that card unless they duress it out of your hand. Maybe it is the same in legacy?
Except for the fact that Legacy combo plays defensive cards like Xantid Swarm, Defense Grid, and Force of Will, as well as Solidarity just owning the stack...
Yeah what he said. Instant-speed hate like Gilded Light or Orim's Chant is great against Iggy Pop or TES, but is awful against Solidarity because they can easily get around it. The matchup we have to gun for the most is Solidarity because it is the most popular of the combo decks and also the hardest of them to beat. Iggy Pop or TES can be shut down quickly due to Chalice of the Void or Trinisphere, but you need more than that against Solidarity. This is why I like Boil. There's no chance for you to win the game quickly, so it's easier if you can stick a couple lock pieces down and then force through a Boil midgame to make them completely restart, and by that time you should have enough time to swing in for the win (5 turns max with a single Monastery).Quote:
Except for the fact that Legacy combo plays defensive cards like Xantid Swarm, Defense Grid, and Force of Will, as well as Solidarity just owning the stack...
And if not Boil, then Rule of Law. I like Rule of Law as well because it's better vs. non-high tide decks, but Boil is just awesome vs. Solidarity.
yeah... things I'm diggin' right now:
-zuran orb
-city of traitors+mox diamond
-gamble+loam
-ghost quarter+forest
-intuition piles that cause groans.
ask watcher =)