Engineered Explosives deals with Needle, Chalice, and Empty the Warrens. This deck can easily bring it up to three, and so on...
Engineered Explosives is good in the current meta.
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Engineered Explosives deals with Needle, Chalice, and Empty the Warrens. This deck can easily bring it up to three, and so on...
Engineered Explosives is good in the current meta.
I can see it in a theoric aspect but it is out of question I buy two others tabernacle for this deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldariel
Against ETW pyroclasm is a great solution too.
Goblin is a bye. Add more tabernacle because he have waste is not intelligent : I can't have two in play because it is legendary and with life from the loam tabernacle return in play the next turn. pyroclasm slow up goblin the necessary time for install the lock.
But in my last tournament I play against ichoride and I want a tabernacle and I don't find it so I loose. But it is the job of gamble.
oxidize is not better than krosian grip : he can't destroy a problematic enchantement (pillar, confinement, counterbalance, aluren, survival), he can be countered, is not a sorcery (a bonus in this deck). I tutorise fastly my taiga so shattering is really better. The difference in CC is not important.Quote:
Of course, the deck would really love artifact hate to beat Pithing Needle, but it can't run Ancient Grudge, since the second most important threat is Chalice at 2, which Grudge unfortunately doesn't answer. Shattering Spree is too mana intensive to be any good, how about just simple Oxidize or something?
Yeah. Instead of krosian grip it is a great idea. Aluren and moat can't be destroy but it is probably better than krosan.Quote:
Engineered Explosives deals with Needle, Chalice, and Empty the Warrens. This deck can easily bring it up to three, and so on...
Engineered Explosives is good in the current meta.
Allosaurus Rider
really
back to the shadow!
I couldn't explain why it is totally stupid, just look the deck and try to understand her functioning
Here's my sidboard. I play 43 lands a LOT. I just personally love any deck that beats the crap out of goblins on a regular basis. We have a few combo decks in the area with one guy playing them just about every tournament so I keep some goodies for him.
3 Aegis of Honor - We still have a few die hard Sligh players who insist the deck is still good. Well considering Price of Progress can mean game real quick-like for this deck I had to put these in. Handy for a few other random cards, but price is the main reason.
3 Children of Korlis - anti-Tendrils card. Delays the game enough to win. Makes combo a reasonable matchup. Solidarity isn't played anymore here so I don't worry about that one. Just let a few copies resolve, then gain a ton back. Usually no one will attempt it with one out much less two, but it's enough to stall out the game enough to swing in.
3 Pithing Needle - for annoying cards like Crypt and Withered Wrech. Wretch is a serious pain he's hard to deal with since he needs to be dealt with by Barbarian Ring and Threshold is a little hard to keep with him out. Crypt at least can be played around pretty easy.
3 Nevyrral's Disc - For Back to Basics and Blood Moon basically. there's not much use past that.
3 Chalice of the Void - Dedicated Extirpate hate. Handy for other stuff also, but Extirpating your loam is bad so I needed something, this is the best defense I came up with.
I haven't had a problem against much of anything else. I never saw the need for Armageddons or Zuran Orb's especially.
zuran orb is the best card fot the gain life. Polyvalent, put in 0 and pay 0 for active, gain more life if your opponant want make a double tendrill (because you put more land in play).
I have burning wish for all the graveyard hate.
I never see a BtB or a blood moon in a legacy table. And if a guy put one in play a day against me I accept the loose but keep 3 cards in sideboard only against that is useless.
But I have a wish sideboard so you can't compare mine side and your side.
Children of Korlis sounds interesting, but it is only good against Tendrils. I think Chalice is more flexible becuase you cans ide it against Burn, Threshold, Fish, Belcher and Solidarity too.
I agree that Zuran Orb is also very strong Anti Price of Progress tactic because you can sac the lands in response. But Aegis sounds also cool.
Aegis only requires you keep one mana open for price and that's pretty easy to do in this deck. It's also handy for random burn. As a side note, it actually can deflect Psionic blasts from Faerie stompy, it doesn't mention it has to be a red spell, just damage. I ran into that once. He was sure surprised to notice it after he shot himself for 6.
I never had a use for the Zuran Orbs because of the Shield. I guess that's why I don't use it.
The Chidren I agree is really narrow, but i needed something fast for the "nuts" draw TES can dish out. 1st turn kills aren't that hard to pull out of that deck and second turn is more likely. I needed a super fast answer other than "scoop". It was either that or Orim's chant. Both are pretty useful for the same purpose.
I tried Burning Wish, but it kept driving me nuts. I wanted to use it, but I'd have Manabond in the opening hand and would ditch it more often than not so I eventually tossed it. Crypt is really easy to play around and Extirpate is only used by Deadguy around here and that falls over and dies to 43 land even if you end up in topdeck mode.
Maybe it's just my luck, but that's how it works out up here. If I lose, it's to TES's speed every time.
I think its time to necro this thread up. This deck wrecks new forms of combo, nearly all forms of aggro control, and a majority of control decks. This deck also can easily pilot around most hate that is brought in against. In my list i dropped the red splash (seemed a little underwhelming) and added more tabernacles, mulches, and im currently testing out a singleton vesuva. Here is my list
44 Lands
Non-lands:
4 exploration
4 manabond
4 mulch
4 LFTL
Lands:
4 Wasteland
4 Maze of ith
4 Rishadan port
2 Tabernacle
1 Vesuva
4 Tranquil thicket
2 Secluded steppe
4 Mishra's factory
3 Nantuko monastery
3 Treetop village
4 Savannah
4 Forest
4 fetches
Sideboard:
15 ______
The mainboard has been working extremely well for me. I have yet to lose a single game in any of my matches against aggro and against the new forms of combo (ichorid and breakfast... im pretty sure noone plays TES or belcher anymore) it does realy well against. Im pretty sure that this deck is easily strong enough to be moved to the established forum... and since i have mos of the cards for this deck i might just throw it together.
Is there any benefit in dropping red? The deck doesn't exactly fear Wasteland (as a minor note: ironically, the G/W version loses to Magus of the Moon outright whereas the 3c one doesn't), and at the very least being able to run >4 Life from the Loam (with Gamble or Wish, your choice) should be a good thing.
Dropping red is not an option. Gamble adds in this decks consistency. Also, Barbarian Ring is extremely good at finishing games. I do think a Forest should be added to the GenCon list in place of a savannah I think. Mulch has been underwhelming for me in the main, but there really isn't anything that could replace it. Mulch is still better than Burning Wish I think. Testing will reveal more, but that's my initial impression.
The sideboard needs the most work. I really haven't come to a consensus on what belongs and what doesn't. This is my most recent sideboard:
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Armageddon
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Engineered Explosives
2x Ancient Grudge
The only new cards for me are Explosives and Grudges. Explosives, in theory, are awesome. However, Engineered Explosives, just doesn't have a positive effect on the game. The sideboard cards, in general, have to be proactive if possible. The obvious exception is crypt. Chalices are awesome, Geddons are necessary, and I loved the 2 Grudges...I will most likely make them three. However, I don't know what else to put in the sideboard.
I'm open to input. However, the maindeck is ridiculously tight.
Regards,
Ryan Trepanier
Quote:
Originally Posted by technogeek5000
Without a significant clock, can not combo just bypass EtW and hit Charbelcher/Tendrils to kill you?
"New" form of combo is Ichroid and Cephalid Breakfast. Neither runs storm cards. If you talking about CRET Belcher or TES, yea, it will be trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by etrigan
I recently decided to build this deck and actually managed to do so through my friends' constant shit-giving. At first I really loved it, but the more testing I did, the more times I would stall out after a great start (which makes complete logical sense. More games played = more bad games). I mean even after going land -> exploration -> land -> manabond -> drop 3 lands on the table. Then I proceed to draw really unhelpful lands / more manabonds or explorations for like 10 turns while my opponent lays some beats and kills me right through my nonrecurring manlands and mazes of ith. I found that I was winning only if...
a) I manascrewed my opponent with wasteland and port and was able to follow it up with manland beats,
b) I managed to get a sizable army of manlands on the table within the first 2 turns and outrace my opponent,
c) I got loam and all of its crazy shit online.
Perhaps it is my own fault that I keep hands which entice me with exploration + manabond without one of these plans ready, but I can't help thinking that there has to be an easier way to make the deck more consistent.
This train of thought of course led to me Burning Wish, which I have just started testing. Perhaps my assumptions are incorrect and will be proved thusly through testing, but Burning Wish seems to have tons of synergy in this deck. It can...
a) get loam if you don't have it already,
b) get mulch if you just need more lands on the table,
c) get gamble if you need a specific land aka maze of ith against breakfast,
d) get regrowth to grab any non-land card you may need from your graveyard aka exploration, manabond, and even mulch or gamble if the one from your board has already been used.
This card seems extremely powerful. My only other quarrels with this deck are the low # of tabernacles and the deck's vulnerability to graveyard hate. I will address the latter first. If an opponent can effectively institute graveyard hate (let's say leyline of the void), not be hindered by your mana disruption, and outclass your manland beats (which at this point consist only of 4 factories and 3 treetop villages) then you are pretty much screwed, and frankly, that isn't that hard of a thing to achieve. At that point you have no recuring land destruction, no recuring threats, no card advantage engine, and no real way of winning the game. Seems bad. How do we fight this? I cannot stress this weakness enough, especially with Breakfast, Ichorid, AND Threshold being major contenders in the format right now and therefore making graveyard hate in the sideboard a complete necessity. In terms of tabernacles, I think I would go up to 2 just to make them easier to find. We don't have crop rotation to insta-tutor them up, all we have is gamble (which will most likely be finding loam, and if it already has then you are probably winning anyways), therefore I think 2 coppies are justified in order to make it more consistently available in the matches that it shines.
WOW, that was a long post!
Kronicler
I think that you are correct in adding burning wish to the deck. In my meta I have been having a lot of problems with extirpate lately. Once they extirpate loam, it is pretty much game over for 43 lands.
I think the non-land cards in this deck should be
4 Exploration
4 Manabond
2 Gamble
3 Burning Wish
2 Life From The Loam
2 Mulch
This way you can
Gamble for burning wish or LFTL
Gambling for burning wish seems incredibly poor. If we are going to run burning wish, we should definately run 4, and considering the biggest reason to run it is to find loam, we should definately run 3 of those in the main too. So from your non-lands card list we need to -2 gamble or -2 mulch and +1 loam, +1 burning wish.
Kronicler
I am fairly confident Assassin's nonland configuration is close to optimal; the numbers on the red spells may be tweaked, but not anything else. For reference:
4 Manabond
2 Exploration
4 Gamble
3 Life from the loam
3 Burning wish
2 Recoup
- Exploration is almost pointless if you have Manabond. Its purpose is mostly as a backup; six Fastbond effects are enough to consistently see one in your opening hand.
- Gamble and Burning Wish are definitely warranted. The second gives you an out against Extirpate, which is otherwise a rout. The former is a Demonic Tutor, since for every time it grabs a LftL there are two when it just gets you the exact land you need (usually Chasm, Wasteland, or Maze)
- Recoup is great utility, giving an extra purpose to all that dredging and allowing Gamble to tutor for spells (such as postboard Pyroclasms).
- Mulch is subpar. It's a one-shot LftL that gets you 0-4 random lands, instead of the three you want: it's only a bit better on turn 2 when you have no lands in your graveyard and a Manabond in play. Otherwise, Gamble/Wish -> LftL is way better.
Actually 6 are NOT enough to consistently see them in your opening hand. 6/60 = 1/10. Your sample size is only 7, so there is a gap between sample size and probability.
Honestly, for speed purposes I find Exploration to be much stronger than Manabond due to its ability to allow you to use the lands you bring up right away, as opposed to have to wait until your turns end.
It is also much better in multiples.
Mulch is not as bad as you seem to think it is. It is often a draw 3 or draw 4 for just two mana, Life from the Loam takes more time to get where it needs to go.
Besides, Mulch is an outlet against Extirpate.
If you really don't like Mulch, I would suggest Devastating Dreams. It wipes the board, but thanks to your Gamble ---> LftL plus incredibly high land count makes recovery a snap.
I would try out:
4 Exploration
2 Manabond
3 Life from the Loam
2 Recoup
3 Burning Wish
3 Gamble
with Dreams in the Wishboard.
Edit: Honestly, I have never seen a need for Gamble/Burning Wish/Recoup/All this other stuff and still don't see much of one. You could argue for Gamble replacing Mulch, but outside of that I am not seeing a great difference, in test or out, except that now you have to be able to handle a robust amount of red and green, instead of just a splash.
how do you guys beat survival? i think armeggeddon helps but is there anything else? The main problem is that they have rofellos which makes info mana Survival to get magus of the moon and burning wish for ruination. The only way i can see it is possible to beat them is that they keep a bad hand mull to 4 or u wasteland them outso rofellos is useless.
While that's true, I tend to mulligan aggressively with this deck, because with Loam online you end up getting 2/3 cards a turn fairly soon. Also I consider Turn 1 Gamble->Manabond a viable play, if I already have a LftL.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cait_Sith
That could only matter if you were tight with mana to cast Wish and LftL. Manlands can't attack anyway, and Waste/Port/Maze/Tabernacle/Cycling landsQuote:
Honestly, for speed purposes I find Exploration to be much stronger than Manabond due to its ability to allow you to use the lands you bring up right away, as opposed to have to wait until your turns end.
Manabond is much better in singleton.Quote:
It is also much better in multiples.
Quote:
Mulch is not as bad as you seem to think it is. It is often a draw 3 or draw 4 for just two mana, Life from the Loam takes more time to get where it needs to go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil
So is Burning Wish (+ Recoup, and Gamble to some extent).Quote:
Besides, Mulch is an outlet against Extirpate.
I play it as a Wish target already ;)Quote:
If you really don't like Mulch, I would suggest Devastating Dreams. It wipes the board, but thanks to your Gamble ---> LftL plus incredibly high land count makes recovery a snap.
Well, I see a ton more consistency with those cards. My games all play out basically the same way - fetch LftL somehow, hold off their mana and/or their attackers, win.Quote:
Edit: Honestly, I have never seen a need for Gamble/Burning Wish/Recoup/All this other stuff and still don't see much of one. You could argue for Gamble replacing Mulch, but outside of that I am not seeing a great difference, in test or out, except that now you have to be able to handle a robust amount of red and green, instead of just a splash.
They have shitty mana bases. Hit those. Game 1 you have Wasteland, Tabernacle (shuts down Birds) and Port, but Game 2 you can bring in Pyroclasms for some real pain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy I Don't Know
It dies to Clasm, and it doesn't make infi mana if their Forests (almost all of them nonbasic) get Wastelanded.Quote:
The main problem is that they have rofellos which makes info mana
Dies to Pyroclasm.Quote:
Survival to get magus of the moon
Ruination is seven mana.Quote:
and burning wish for ruination