[Deck] Pox

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

I tested against the decks that I have access to,

Deadguy, Zilla Stompy, Fairie Stompy, UW Thres, Reanimator, Burn. Nothing with Vial unfortunately except on MWS. But against those matchups I've never once regretted running Smallpox as a 4 of. Burn is the only very unfavorable matchup for you and that's because of Pox, not Smallpox. Burn is the bane of most any black deck.

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Thats funny. Half those decks require winning with a couple creatures. Innocent Blood would do just as much good against them. Try playing Affinity, Goblins, and Loam with Smallpox. The only reason Smallpox was any good against Loam was because of its discard effect. They can't recur a Humility or Confinement.

If you want to test against these matchups, I will be glad to show you the light. Smallpox is, at best, a sideboard card for your combo matchup, but Oppression is there for that already, and does that job 10X better.

EDIT: Also, I would think that Faerie Stompy would be a bad matchup for you because of Chalice at 1 and 2 is SOOOO bad for this deck. Did this happen to you?

Or perhaps you can accept that a lot of people don't play in metas dominated with Loam and Vial decks. I already acknowledged the weakness of the ld strategy against Vial and Loam. And as I've repeatedly stated, goblins has fallen out of flavor where I play, and in most places I suspect. And both Loam and Affinity were never in flavor here or in most areas I suspect. If your meta has tons of Vial based decks and Loam based decks, I wouldn't be running Pox in the first place.

Fairie Stompy is rather land light and prone to mana screw. Plus their mana base is very prone to Wasteland as well. You have an easier time getting your ld engine to be effective as they do casting a Chalice at 2, and Chalice at 1 isn't that painful. Certainly Smallpox would be among the last cards I would ever cut against this matchup as it's actually better than Pox and most of the stuff you run here, it more easily lets you keep them stuck at 1 mana and destroys their first turn creature to boot. Actually Smallpox is probably the strongest card you run against Fairie Stompy. Why would you ever want to cut Smallpox against Fairie Stompy?

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

Or perhaps you can accept that a lot of people don't play in metas dominated with Loam and Vial decks. I already acknowledged the weakness of the ld strategy against Vial and Loam. And as I've repeatedly stated, goblins has fallen out of flavor where I play, and in most places I suspect. And both Loam and Affinity were never in flavor here or in most areas I suspect. If your meta has tons of Vial based decks and Loam based decks, I wouldn't be running Pox in the first place.

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Im making a point that I wouldn't bring Smallpox to a big tournament such as another GP, just because of the amount of decks like Goblins and Affinity, which seems to have popped up recently. So if its not a good card against 1 of the best decks in the format, how does it help the deck? When people say that Goblins is dying out, they lie. Goblins is still out there people, and you need to be ready for it. Just look at the Sinkhole touney in W. Springfield. Nobody there was really ready for it, and it ended up being the only 2 goblin decks there at the final match. Fear it. Im saying that its not a solid card option, so there shouldn't be any hype over it like you say. You make this card out to be better than Innocent Blood. Innocent Blood is a million times more versitile then Smallpox and I think a lot of people agree here. Play Smallpox if you want. Go ahead, Im not stopping you. Im just pointing out why its not the best option. Maybe it is and Im a dickhead, but from my testing (And trust me, I was just as excited as everyone else when it came out) this card is mediocre at best. I tested the shit out of this card, I really wanted it to work. Unfortunatly, it didn't do it for me. But hell, I play Magic to be number 1, not to have fun, so what the hell does my opinion matter?

If I was expecting to see a decent amount of Goblins and/or Affinity at a tourney, I don't think I would bring Pox period, with or without Smallpox.

Very fast decks that deal tons of damage in just a couple of turns on are the bane of Pox's existance. That's nothing new. And that's nothing that can be pinned on Smallpox. Smallpox if anything helps you in one of yyour major hopes against such decks, mana screw.

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

If I was expecting to see a decent amount of Goblins and/or Affinity at a tourney, I don't think I would bring Pox period, with or without Smallpox.

Very fast decks that deal tons of damage in just a couple of turns on are the bane of Pox's existance. That's nothing new. And that's nothing that can be pinned on Smallpox. Smallpox if anything helps you in one of yyour major hopes against such decks, mana screw.

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Umm, this statement is just silly. I brought Pox to GP Philly. The meta was easily 50% Goblins. Ask anyone that went. I lost to Rabid Wombat, Deadguy, and Landstill. I beat all my other matchups. My other matchups were ALL GOBLINS.

How did I win you ask? Maindeck Infests and E. Plagues. I think my decklist is on the first page of this thread. You can most definately tune this deck to be an auto win to Goblins, as I did. I lost to control though, which was my downfall. Thats the thing about Pox. There are so many good black cards, you can literally form Pox to beat whatever you gear it towards. Once again, I refer to my first post on here when I say just how to do that. Im not retarded when it comes to Pox, it is my favorite deck after all. I have worked on it for almost a year straight, so I know a thing or two when I talk about it.

EDIT: Here, Ill even repost it for you so you dont have to bother going back

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Originally Posted by SillyMetalGAT

The point to Pox is that every spell you play should be able to be cast with Dark Ritual alone, making Ritual your MVP. Heres the list I ran at Philly.... as you can tell from reading it, I auto-won against Goblins.

17 Swamp
4 Wasteland

3 Nether Spirit
3 Chimeric Idol
3 Cursed Scroll

4 Pox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymm
4 Sinkhole
3 Duress
3 Infest
3 E. Plague
3 Funeral Charm
2 Smother



SB:
3 Oppression
3 Haunting Echoes
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Infest
1 E. Plague
3 Massacre

Something like that. I can't remember exactly because it was almost a year ago. Unfortunatly, my teammate Bane_of_the_Living was playing it the night before in a tournament to get the 2-round bye when it got stolen. He was 2-0 in it too, his 3rd opponent was Goblins. He would have tromped them, but when he looked up, it was gone. Foil Wastelands, Beta Sinks, altered Infests, pretty much a money deck.

Anyways, The amazing thing about Pox is its flexability to the format. If you know your meta has a lot of combo, maindeck Oppressions, Cabal Therapy, Duress, Hymn to Tourach, and Racks. Playing a lot of Aggro? Throw in Infests, Smother, Nether Spirit, Chimeric Idol, Cursed Scroll, and whatever else may tickle your fancy.

A really underestimated card is Contamination. Solidarity literally cries if that thing hits the board. Bait out the FoWs with some discard, then drop that card on them with Spirit in play and that equals GG 99% of the time. Some people are crafty enough to float mana, Wish for bounce yadda yadda yadda, but most people just scoop. Its also a house against Threshold, although its harder to cast because they play 10-12 counters. The other thing about Threshold is that they really dont mind discard as long as its not on their creatures. Discard = Quicker Threshold. Which blows, especially if your not packing Diabolic Edicts. Mongoose will smash your face all day if you can't pwn him early.

Goblins is by far the most fun deck to play against. When I played at Philly, I opened a hand like this: Swamp, Dark Rit, Dark Rit, E. Plague, Swamp, Spirit, Pox. I kept and went first, playing swamp, Rit, E. plague on goblins. My opponent got up and yelled judge because he thought I was cheating. The judge walked over and got my decklist, then laughed and said everything was fine. The kids face turned bright red and he went, playing mountain, vial. I drew into another E. Plague and it was GG. The kid was bullshit at me but whatever. THIS DECK TROMPS GOBLINS SOOO BAD! If you have a lot of Goblins in your meta, this is the deck to bring. You play Infest, Funeral Charm (lacky tech), Smother, and E. Plague. Hymns throw away their Gobs at a pretty fast rate if you see multiples. This deck is probably Goblins worst matchup. Pox = MVP too. They lose it all if they dont have Vial on the board.

As for Control, thats a tough one.... Its like facing the mirror. Whos going to make the first move? Nether Spirit is the man in this matchup. The only card you dont want to see is StP, but between Duress, Hymn, and Funeral Charm, you should be ok on that deal. Spirit can chump block ALL day and just laugh about it. Poxing against control is also nice, considering control only gets scarier the more land it has. LD is pretty key here, as is discard. You drop Idols late game with Spirits and beat face from there. Luckily though, there isn't too much pure control anymore.


So, now I think i'll post a decklist of a solid Pox list from what I think.

17 Swamp
4 Wasteland

3 Chimeric Idol
3 Nether Spirit
3 The Rack

4 Pox
4 Hymm to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
3 Small Pox (Yes, I had hopes)
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Contamination

SB
3 Tormods Crypt
3 Oppression
3 Haunting Echoes
3 Engineered Plague
3 Infest


The list has a pretty strong maindeck against both Threshold and Solidarity, with an even better sideboard. The deck packs 15 LD effects, 10 creaure kill effects, and 17 discard effects. The Echoes is in there to completely own Threshold. They call it the Scoopmeister in Germany for a reason. Oppression puts the hurt on Combo. Crypt is there for Thresh and IGGy pop. E. Plagues and Infests round out the goblin matchup pretty easily.

Overall, Pox has the tools to become quite a contender, and hopefully Small Pox will be the extra oomph needed to make it viable. Just remember people, Pox Hard, Pox Fast!

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Originally Posted by SillyMetalGAT

You can most definately tune this deck to be an auto win to Goblins, as I did. I lost to control though, which was my downfall. Thats the thing about Pox. There are so many good black cards, you can literally form Pox to beat whatever you gear it towards.

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That cuts to the heart of the matter right there. You face a lot of goblins and tweak your build to beat goblins at the cost of losing to control and I suspect combo.

I see a lot more nongoblin decks and run cards like Smallpox that help me against those matchups and lean on my sideboard to hate goblins.

Different builds for different metas. If Smallpox is bad in your specific meta, then more power to you. But that doesn't justify your statement that Smallpox is a bad card for Pox (GP Philly was a long time ago, goblins WAS top dog back then). It's very synergic with the deck and I may side it out against certain matchups, but I would never not run it altogether.

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

That cuts to the heart of the matter right there. You face a lot of goblins and tweak your build to beat goblins at the cost of losing to control and I suspect combo.

I see a lot more nongoblin decks and run cards like Smallpox that help me against those matchups and lean on my sideboard to hate goblins.

Different builds for different metas. If Smallpox is bad in your specific meta, then more power to you. But that doesn't justify your statement that Smallpox is a bad card for Pox (GP Philly was a long time ago, goblins WAS top dog back then). It's very synergic with the deck and I may side it out against certain matchups, but I would never not run it altogether.

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Ok. Im ending this arguement right here. Give me your meta. I will make a Pox deck that beats it without the use of Smallpox. Smallpox is Suboptimal to any other card choices because, while one part of it might be good, one part of it is bad. Here is an example of such a thing:

Solidarity.
LD= Good
Discard= Good
creature kill= Poor

Pox
LD= Good
Discard= Good
creature kill = Poor

Your effected 2 times by it conditionally. Solidarity isnt. But its got 2 out of 3, so its not a bad option, but instead you could run.......... CABAL THERAPY!!!! ZOMFG!!! WOW YOU MEAN IT DOESNT HURT THE POX PLAYER BUT CAN COMPLETELY RUIN SOLIDARITY????

Goblins
LD= Poor
Discard= EHHHH
Creature Kill= Good

Ok, so you can kill 1 creature, but you lose a card and a land to do so. but instead you could run...... INNOCENT BLOOD!!!!!!!!!! WOW YOU MEAN YOU DONT LOSE A LAND AND A CARD???? or even INFEST???? WIPE THEIR BOARD????????????

Threshold
LD= Good
Discard= depending on what you rip
Creature Kill= Good

Ok, so you pretty much lose a card and a land to do the same to them. But instead you could run.... INNOCENT BLOOD!!!!!!!! You have Wasteland, Sinkhole, and Pox to get rid of their lands already. Again, Innocent Blood is better because its A) Cheaper, B) Doesn't cost you a land, and C) doesn't cost you a card in hand AT RANDOM. It could be a non-spirit win condition.

So I've given you 3 cards that are easily better than Smallpox in those situations. Do you need more proof? Your guaranteed to lose a card in your hand, which is BAD FOR YOU. Your guaranteed to lose a land, WHICH IS BAD FOR YOU. Its the same exact concept of Pox. But you already have a Pox. Why do you need a weaker one? Your running Smallpox over utility because its supposedly better than any other option you have. I gave you 3. Do you need more?

Then, THEN think about this. You have a Smallpox and a Pox in your hand. Which one are you going to play? If you play the Smallpox, you run the risk of losing the Pox, and vise versa. YOU PLAY THE FRIGGIN POX. You only need 4 global effects like that. Seriously man, SmallPox is suboptimal in
almost EVERY situation you can think of.

Ive' done some testing with ismall pox and I have been impressed, esspecialy if you can set up your deck so that the discard, land destruction and creature destruction don't effect you. It basically three for ones.

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Originally Posted by quicksilver

Ive' done some testing with ismall pox and I have been impressed, esspecialy if you can set up your deck so that the discard, land destruction and creature destruction don't effect you. It basically three for ones.

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Did you use both Pox and Smallpox? Can you elaborate for me?

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Originally Posted by SillyMetalGAT

Did you use both Pox and Smallpox? Can you elaborate for me?

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I did have both pox and small pox in the same deck, and no i can't elaborate for you cause someone told me not to spill their tech, but you'll see it soon enough, probably once the set becomes legal. I am just saying it has been really strong for me.

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Originally Posted by quicksilver

I did have both pox and small pox in the same deck, and no i can't elaborate for you cause someone told me not to spill their tech, but you'll see it soon enough, probably once the set becomes legal. I am just saying it has been really strong for me.

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Ok, answer this for me then. Is it a Pox deck? Like an average one, not one thats completely different? I mean like it has 75% of the same card choices and whatnot?

In order to win with a land destruction deck, you need to meet a critical mass of land destruction. Most decks can win with 2 lands and annoy you with one land, but very few can win with no lands at all. Therefore you need atleast as much land destruction as your opponents have lands.

The best pure land destruction cards are wasteland and sinkhole. Your other land destruction is slightly less efficient but more versatile - pox and hymn to tourach. Most decks run about 17-20 lands - you need smallpox or the rest of your ld is useless.

To compensate for running pox and smallpox you need to run more lands, i run about 26 - 18 + one for each land sacrifice card. These lands are not however dead cards because nearl half of them have other uses - 4 factories, 4 pits and 4 wastelands, and I can discard them to pox and smallpox if I get mana flooded. Crucible of worlds is very useful because it consolidates your position, once it's down your opponent can't play nonbasic lands or small creatures, the crucible is effectively a finisher and I would consider running something else.


The problem with aether vial is not that it circumvents ld but that it allows your opponent to drop several creatures each turn, cards like innocent blood can't keep up with that, so you generally lose. This is why I recommend 4 md pithing needle. Every major deck in the format has atleast one or two 4 of's which are completely shut down by this card (fetches mostly) and it answers one of the deck's biggest problems (aether vial) and stops topdecked crypts once you get the crucible or the spirit online.

You don't draw a pithing needle every game but when you don't smallpox is actually very strong against the vial because it deals with one creature and stops them casting as many next turn by destroying a land and forcing a discard. Pox can generally deal with one new goblin a turn with nether spirit or mishra's factory by the time that the vial has enough counters on anyway.

Using these strategies I can go about 50-50 game one with goblins without having any dead cards md.

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

Edit: I read the pox primer thank you. Like you said, a lot has changed. No one runs 4 Mindstab Thrull and 4 The Rack and most people find Cursed Scroll too many hungry and to luck dependent at times to run as a 3 of. But more important than that, the meta has changed completely from what it was back then.

Things moved much slower back then. If you're short on lands, you could wait a turn or two to draw into another land and odds are, you're not nearly as behind as you would be today. Decks change and evolve based on new metas and new cards. I think it's time to rethink the old mana base as well.

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Whoa, what? Try it. Seriously. The only way this point can be proven is to try it. Dude, you only need 21 lands. I guarantee it. You know why? NOBODY RUNS LD IN THIS FORMAT! Thats right! The only LD you see is Wasteland, which doesn't hit swamps! So the only one blowing up lands is you and Deadguy, and thats because of Sinkhole. Deadguy, btw, is pretty much gone. I haven't seen it post highly in a while. Another thing, How is Cursed Scroll slow? Its just as slow as Nether Spirit, but it costs 3. So what? If your playing with Chimeric Idol, its an amzing card to have. Shoot an opponents creature, swing 3. Or shoot for 2, swing for 3.

It's pretty clear that our decks are for very different environments and our findings don't agree with each other.

For me, Land destruction has been viable, actually not just viable but extremely powerful for me as a strategy and though our builds are very different, Icon of Sin summed up the need for Smallpox to make the land dest strategy consistently effective very well.

So let's not waste more time and just agree to disagree.

As for Scroll, yes, Cursed scroll's luck dependence when you have more than 1 card in hand and it's 3 mana cost to deal just 2 damage has been too slow. Nether Spirit is effectively 0 cc since you can discard it to have to come into play, and it's cost only has to be paid once. That's why I love Nether Spirit, it lets me dedicate all of my mana for disruption.

But I know others have different expereinces with Cursed Scroll so I won't say that it's a bad card for Pox, just that personally, I would at the very most run 2, if any at all.

Just a thought: What about mishras/urza's bauble? The bauble was used in early pox decks to store cards on the table, which sounds like a good idea when you are about to pox and dont want to get stuck with 4 cards in hand, you play out the bauble, pox, sac it to see what your opponent is drawing into (minor detail), then by your next upkeep you have an extra card in hand. Ontop of that it helps thin out your deck, and for those playing cabal pit, helps you reach thresh faster. Has a bit of synergy for those playing cursed scroll as well. Just an idea.

In the day that it was used, Yawgmoth's Will was legal, to make the card really broken. For now I don't know it there is space in the decklist to play them. I shall try it.

My, my, such heated debate. I think I'll stay out of that one...

In any event, I've started playtesting my latest list of this deck (more on that in a sec) and I must say, the initial results have been extremely positive. As in, as yet undefeated (round-wise, not game-wise) positive. "H-What?!" you say. "How is this possible?" The answer lies in a higher concentration of black mana sources over my previous lists in addition to a much faster clock (Negator totem). So far most of my testing has been against fast and mid-range aggro decks, but this deck does mean things to combo and aggro-control too. I still need to test against pure control, but the only pure control deck in my meta is a Burning Tog deck, and I haven't been able to track the guy down yet and squeeze some playtesting out of him. The decks I've played against so far: Angel Stompy (blue/white version), Goblins, BWR Sligh, Faerie Stompy (Force of Will sucks T_T), Solidarity, and one game against Sal Game. I lose pre-board to Solidarity, but post-board I can bring in frightening levels of hate, so it's all good. Without further ado, here is the list:

2 Nether Spirit

4 Infest
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Pox (I want to go back up to four, but I'm not sure what to cut)
4 Funeral Charm
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole
3 Phyrexian Totem
3 Smother
3 Chimeric Idol
4 Innocent Blood

17 Swamp
4 Wasteland

SB:
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Oppression
1 Nether Spirit
4 Leyline of the Void

The totem is far and away the MVP of the new list. Having a realistic clock ensures that you can win before your opponent recovers after a Pox as well as allowing you to race combo decks (when backed up by enough disruption) makes this deck so much better. One thing I want to work in there is Sudden Death, since mid-range aggro decks are slowly taking over my meta and Infest just doesn't cut it as a good board sweeper against them (also, it kills 'togs dead, without letting them respond). Any thoughts on how to get it in there? Gobs is still enough of a presence around here that I don't want to cut too many Infest.

I like your new list but I wish it was playing Smallpox. You should at least side board it. Its amazing against Thresh, Solidarity, and other combo. Maybe sideboard it instead of Therapy.

If your not playing Smallpox you REALLY need to have 4 Pox in the deck.

Why only 2 spirit main? Maybe you should cut a Chimeric Idol or a Funeral Charm for one more.

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Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living

I like your new list but I wish it was playing Smallpox. You should at least side board it. Its amazing against Thresh, Solidarity, and other combo. Maybe sideboard it instead of Therapy.

If your not playing Smallpox you REALLY need to have 4 Pox in the deck.

Why only 2 spirit main? Maybe you should cut a Chimeric Idol or a Funeral Charm for one more.

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I'll probably cut a Funeral Charm for it, since I don't think there will be much difference between 7 and 8 answers to turn one Lackey. I'm still trying to figure out what to cut for the last Pox, though.

EDIT: one card I just noticed is Vesuva. Well, actually, I noticed it when the set came out and instantly fell in love with it (awesome artwork, quirky ability - sign me up!). I really just noticed it for this deck. I think it's interesting because it's so versatile...you can choose a swamp with it and I'm pretty sure they can't Wasteland it, you can choose a Wasteland and essentially run more than 4 of your nonbasic-land hate, you can choose an interesting nonbasic of your opponent's before you kill it with Wasteland (I'll copy your Mishra's Factory and then kill it with Wasteland...thanks!). I wouldn't run more than two of it, but what does everyone else think? Is it up to par or am I just romanticizing the card?

This thread should not be drifting in the obscurity of page two.

So, I bump.

I'm very excited about Smallpox and Phyrexian Totem. Mostly for the reasons mentioned above.

I believe Phyrexian Totem to be superior to Chimeric Idol. If for no other reason, it taps for B.

I'm still working on the details, and adjusting the deck for the current metagame. I'm working on the mox/crucible/8pox version. I think it has the most promise.

Just had to bump more than anything.