White weenie was only really busted when land tax was available. I think they should bring that power card back to Legacy. :smile:
It is strange to see that DT is only 50/50 against goblins yet so much of the board is dedicated to hating that deck.
Printable View
White weenie was only really busted when land tax was available. I think they should bring that power card back to Legacy. :smile:
It is strange to see that DT is only 50/50 against goblins yet so much of the board is dedicated to hating that deck.
That's because it is just so common. The last time I went to a 5 round tourney, 3 of my matches were against gobos. If you are gona see a deck that often and you are gona lose half your preboard matches, you better rock them post board.
Kronicler
P.S. God damn I want them to unban land tax!!!
It really is quite a bit higher than 50/50 for me. It may have been like that before we worked out the details to the deck and post sb strategy. Before it was a hodgepodge of whatever Finn thought was going to work best. Now it is more thought-out. D+T has so many pro red dudes and the ability to search for them to go with all its other tricks, that Goblins is forced to overextend into a Tivadar's Crusade after sideboard. It's a pretty rough situation for them. The matchup is steadily improving, and in my recent games I have been steamrolling them. And game 1 isn't all that bad anyway. Hokori kicks their butts hard in builds without Lightning Bolts or Plows.
And I played FS this morning with good results. Without sb I won 3 out of 4. He wins if he gets Jitte going, but two Stonecloakers can essentially mitigate that all the while hitting him for three in return. You just block with one and replace it with the other before damage resolves. I did this in the first game, and my opponent complained about it when we shuffled up for game two. In one of the other games, he actually did not attack with his equipped Efreet until he had a second flyer and enough mana to reequip his Jitte after combat just because I had a Stonecloaker in play. You people just commenting on how the matchup SHOULD work out really need to test it or not bother to say anything. There are so many tricks this deck can do to create advantages that it can't really be estimated like that.
If the Jitte gets counters, cant they respond to the second one coming into play by killing the first?Quote:
Originally Posted by CleverPetriDish
I mean, if you draw your double Stonecloaker, you can get that little trick up and running on turn 4... By that time, FS would have already have had a chance to get counters on Jitte. Not to mention, they could FoW Stonecloaker, or even Blast in responce if they don't have the Jitte.
That said, I have not tested this matchup. So, yeah...
Just to make it clear, I have tested the matchup. Also, yeah, that stonecloaker trick is useful, but it only works if there are zero counters on jitte and if you have 2 stonecloakers and if you have the mana to play one and if they don't have a FOW and if they are only attacking with 1 creature... w/e, I have to go, but I do not think the FS matchup is better than even.
Kronicler
I don't really know why land tax is banned :confused: does land tax do some first turn kills? or any combo at all?
land tax + scroll rack = draw 3 cards a turn
Kronicler
Scroll rack should be the one to ban. :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kronicler
I was wondering, Where's Mother of Runes? seems like a solid 1 drop, right? I dont remember it being suggested or tested at all.
Mother of Runes is a wonderful card; this deck doesn't need them though. Most of your creatures can be bounced by Karakas or protected by Eiganjo Castle, those that can't still have Stonecloaker.
Mothers are more efficient at protecting creatures, but running them in addition to the bouncers would be overkill. If there is one White Weenie that is better off without Mothers, it's this one.
well its not the protection factor I was thinking about. It's nice and all, esp for the times u only have karakas as your bounce option so that u can protect non-legendary creatures as well. There also sometimes u just don't wanto boune a creature cuz it messes with your tempo.
What the main reason i think mother of runes would've been used for was to push dmg through against certain decks. against threshold, u can give something like your isamaru or silver knight Pro:green and have it get in.
Lastly, it also brings the curve down a little bit depending on what's cut for them. My candidate would probably be Glowrider. it would def solidify most of our aggro matchups and in addition to that you could use the board to futher help against combo with cards such as rule of law and abeyance, right?
So what is the current build for the deck? Does anyone have a solid decklist. Finn or otherwise version that is.
This doesn't really contribute, but I thought I'd say grats.
Oh wow nice. Grats Finn!Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinder
So i playtested this deck after building it (its a terrible habit of mine) and I wasn't really satisfied with the top/fetch engine. its not say that its effective, but i found that it was tying up mana that i would've rather had for playing more punks and such. The pain also added up after while.
Also, the deck was a bit on the slow side. an effective clock didn't kick in till a little late. 1/1 for 3 on turn 3 that doesn't go active till next turn? it seemed good on paper until they started pointing removeal at it.
So i made some changes that I've yet to test but fully intend to:
-8 fetch
-3 top
-2 Jotun Grunt
-4 Glowrider
+4 Mother of runes
+2 Jitte
+2 Mask of Memory
+2 Soltari Priest
+2 Tithe
+4 Chrome Mox
it seems like I'm cutting 8 land for 4 chrome moxen and 2 tithes which may seem terrible, but it allows the deck to be sped up a turn and tithe serves as a small draw card since it doesn't seem like you'll ever have more lands than the opponent.
also, since card selection was cut a little, I included Mask of memory which could've always connected before. the deck had 8 flyers, and with the changes, can connect of hte back of MoR and Soltari Priest as well.
I cut the glowriders because against non-solidarity combo decks, it was a tad slow and it usually didn't come down until at least turn 3. I'd still leave them in the board esp now that Chrome Moxen are run but i didn't find them reliable enough to warrant MD.
Jotun Grunt also seems like a questionable cut, but except against thresh, it would sit there in my hand. It's really good against thresh, but against other decks it was merely a 4/4 body that would eventually go away. late game, I'd rather be casting stonecloakers and Serra Avengers simply because they fly.
Jitte is in there simply because it stops goblins and provides a good clock when its not killing gobbos. I was thinking about using SoFI but Jitte comes down a full turn faster which is really important.
I'mve sure most've you have noticed by now that its basically Angel Stompy and D&T mashed together but i think the changes are for the best. I'll get back to you guys after i test it a bit.
Is this the direction we want to go or need to go? Angel Stompy was originally weak to Combo but DNT is made for anti-combo. The Glowriders and Sphere of resistance helped against that. If you're dropping the Glowriders, aren't we going back to square one Angel Stompy sans the Exalted Angels? Sure the Mangara & Hokori are still there but is that enough?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninj4
As for the SoFI, you're right. We don't have the power of Ancient Tombs helping us getting that SoFI drop quickly. However that inclusion of 4 Chrome Mox should help us speed past it shouldn't it? I remember the original version of Angel Stompy used City of Traitors. Then along the way it was removed for Tithe and Chrome Mox. I believe Tithe was eventually dropped.
In addition, Godzilla is already working on a dual-color version of a new deck that's supposed to succeed Angel Stompy. Although I don't know if Exalted Angels are in there, it does feature Cataclysm. There is already discussion of a MW Cataclysm deck in the Angel Stompy thread as well. We just have to wait until GP Columbia to see this new deck.
Regardless, let us know how the testing goes though. DNT seems to be fighting an uphill battle lately. It's a very good deck but it still has room for improvement. There has been quite a bit of chatter in the Angel Stompy thread lately. Some of the discussion is overlapping with DNT already. Maybe we can end up with 2 awesome decks to tinker with.
well, I just got out of class so I have a little time to respond...
... The combo matchup i don't think is that strong for the original list. Glowriders aren't going down until at least turn 3 and there's no way that solidarity wont' have a remand or a FoW for him. if your stuck tapping him down with ports, your committing 2 mana a turn to stop his 1 land which gets untapped by reset anyway.
Against other combo (namely Iggy and TES) most of the time you won't even get teh mana to cast glowrider as they typically combo off turn 3 or earlier anyway. Rishidan port is even weaker in these matchups as they have less land-derived mana than solidarity.
With the changes I made, I have a feeling that I've made the Goblin and Thresh matches stronger and through those, other aggro decks as well. It has a really strong early game with its moxen and/or isamaru and MoR. mide game its got jitte setting up either card advantage (removal for no cards) and Mask of Memory for card selection filtering away lands. It even has synergy with Tithe as most of hte time I have a feeling it'll be fetching 2 and with Mask, you'll be turning 2 plains into 4 more cards.
In the end game, which is what I think the original DnT focused on too much, is still there between the Hokori and mangara lock. I still haven't changed the sideboard much but I'm pretty sure Chalice and Rule of Law are much stronger as they provide a much larger obstacle. Maybe not chalice, but Rule of Law definately. They also seem much mroe viable now that moxen are in teh MD because they can come down turn 2.
Ninj4, I am not trying to flame you at all here, but it seems likely to me that you don't know how to play the deck. You should read Finn's primer on the mtgsalvation thread.
@top, the #1 reason I never have issues spending mana on its activation is because I don't bother activating it uintil after my initial supply of creatures is running low. By then there are sufficient lands in play to do both. There is no reason to mess with the top until then. This deck has 4 different legendary permanents with atleast 3 copies - you need to have a reliable way to manipulate the cards you draw.
@Mangara, the deck doesn't win by abusing Mangara.
Yeah. That is entirely correct. But mine never have that problem - why? Because (a) I am not plopping it down until after I have made my other threats into targets for said removal and (b) I am not relying upon it, so I don't really care if it dies.Quote:
1/1 for 3 on turn 3 that doesn't go active till next turn? it seemed good on paper until they started pointing removeal at it.
@changes, You are trying to turn the deck into something else. Why stop there? This deck is not White Weenie. It does not play that way. If you try to play it that way it will be what you may expect - a bad ww deck. If you play it correctly it is far more effective. The disruption package - especially Glowrider - randomly wins games. D+T is a bit slower than Angel Stompy but far more difficult to defend with its current setup.
@combo, with the current list, g1 has been hard for me. I concede that. But the sb answers are very strong. The guy I played this past Saturday, I beat him in the swiss and again in the finals. He had Solidarity. Both times, he won g1 and was helpless in gs 2 and 3.
Yeah. Thanks. Sean was the man for getting me a bit of exposure there. And it was probably his best written article yet.Quote:
This doesn't really contribute, but I thought I'd say grats.
Petri, was that Anthony's Solidarity? I wasn't there but I understand that he was holding the goods on turn 3 in the finals, and just kept waiting while things got worse.
I've been testing against Goblins and Solidarity and TES quite a lot these days. Solidarity is pretty good post board, and Gobs is very good. TES is excellent post-board. I have come to one big conclusion. We don't really need to "give up" game 1 against combo to remain competitive against aggro.
I recommend
-1 Stonecloaker
-1 Mangara
+2 True Believer
This way we get some more bonafide 2-drops too. This could actually improve some matchups with more sb slots open.