[Deck] TES - The EPIC Storm

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Originally Posted by Giles

My opinion of Street Wraith: It is a good card. It going to help out a lot of combo decks. However, TES is not one of the.



Seriously Magus of the Future would be better. Last time I check there is no way of giving MotJ haste. Thus, this makes it a wasted slot. Getting :1::g: first turn. Then next turn ( or leaving 5 mana in the pool) having :3::u::u: is not going to happen. then untap-ing then having to combo with wasted resources, then getting a sub-par Draw7 hand..... and fizzling. The reason that I think that Returns is good is because it takes the graveyard and put it back into the deck.

If LW gets Bob, then 4 mana (one being :g:) to play the damn thing then watching trying to get back for when you wasted at least 3 cards from your hand. You are better off playing Bob in the MD.

Minion of the Wastes is to put is simply stupid. :3::b::b::b: for something that says "If you are able to deal with me you win" Also you are fucking lucky if you have 3bbb in your pool. and there is much better things at that mana cost, that at least do something.

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I just read that as, "I don't understand how to use Living Wish."

No one is casting Living Wish for Magus of the Jar on turn one, casting Magus of the Jar on turn two and activating Magus of the Jar on turn three. Living Wish for Magus of the Jar is a second or third threat that grinds the opponent out of the game,

For instance, TES is on the draw, it's game 2, the opponent puts a Tundra on the board, go.

Cast Xantid Swarm, opponent casts Swords to Plowshares, now at this point Living Wish can tutor for the Xantid Swarm and protect another threat or another threat can be cast.

The opponent puts an Island on the board, taps both lands to cast Meddling Mage naming LED, go.

Cast Burning Wish, opponent casts Force of Will, and now Living Wish can either tutor up a Dark Confidant to win small or Magus of the Jar to win big on the following turns.

Now for a second premise.

The opponent puts a Tundra on the board, go.

TES has a hand that can combo out, but it doesn't have protection, Xantid Swarm, or an alternate threat, Empty the Warrens, to play around any of the opponent's disruption, you Brainstorm and reveal more mana and pass the turn.

The opponent puts an Island on the board, go

Living Wish in hand, Infernal Tutor and more than enough mana to combo off in hand. Cast Dark Ritual, cast Living Wish and cast Dark Confidant, the opponent casts Force of Will on Dark Confidant. If the opponent had Swords to Plowshares he would have cast it, if all the opponent had in his was Force of Will he would be set up for a loss.

The opponent puts a Tropical Island on the board, casts a threat, go.

At this point it smells like Stifle, combo off into Diminishing Returns and proceed to have a prayer.

Now for a third premise.

Opponent puts a Fetchland on the board and cracks it for Tundra, go.

Cast Xantid Swarm, opponent casts Swords to Plowshares on Xantid Swarm.

Opponent puts an Island on the board, go.

The opponent has another card, it's either going to be Force of Will or Stifle, the hand has enough mana to combo off and needs to consider doing it right now, the opponent has cast one Swords to Plowshares, if he has Force of Will he wins regardless, if he has Stifle ... Living Wish for Minion of the Wastes at 19/19 ... he had Stifle.

Those are all from IRL experiences I have had with the card in the deck.

Minion of the Wastes is not "just stupid," this could come as a surprise, but there are aggro-control and control decks that don't use Swords to Plowshares, GAT, Faerie Stompy, U/g/r Threshold, U/g/b Threshold and a slew of other home brew decks.

Infernal Tutor for the Ill Gotten Gains chain costs 8 mana, the same amount of mana as Living Wish for Minion of the Wastes, and an unprotected Infernal Tutor for the Ill Gotten Gains chain gives the opponent the same amount of outs, Force of Will and Stifle, as a Minion of the Wastes, Force of Will and Swords to Plowshares, and Swords to Plowshares can be baited with Xantid Swarms or SB Dark Confidants etc.

It isn't a bad card, but you'd actually have to test it to know that.

Edited for Wastedlife:

For me, the two, not three, SB cards I cut weren't an issue, because all I ever seem to do is SB in Dark Confidant for random cards against control or SB out Xantid Swarm for live cards against aggro. I've never mastered the median in SBing for Faerie Stompy, which is really the only match up I would ever consider bringing in both Dark Confidant and Shattering Spree, and against aggro I can just Wish for an answer or go to game two if hate hits the board.

I think people can add Living Wish and make the adjustments to the MD and SB with out contorting either of them, being either conservative with the Living Wish board or teched out with the Living Wish board is up to them.

Whether or not Burning Wish can do some stuff that Living Wish can't do or Living Wish can do some stuff that Burning Wish can't do isn't the issue. I think one of the problems with people's judgement on Living Wish is that its targets are different from the conventional fair, while Burning Wish and Infernal Tutor have the exact same targets to choose from (discounting Burning Wish's access to answers and Infernal Tutor's access to acceleration) and abstract targets just "have to be bad."

Comparing Living Wish to Burning Wish and Infernal Tutor is an unfair comparison, unless Living Wish is competing against Burning Wish and Infernal Tutor for MD slots, and it isn't. The question we have to ask ourselves is whether or not Living Wish, as a card in and of itself, is offering effects that are good enough to be in Storm Combo, and I think the answer to that question is a definite yes.

I'm not certain I am going to be using the card, because I designed TES around abusing Simian Spirit Guide and Empty the Warrens to win small against aggro-control and I have it down to a science, but for people who hate certain cards in the deck, I think Living Wish provides them with another option to consider at 1 to 3 in the MD and 3 or so SB targets (counting Dark Confidant).

I'm just glad I spent enough time with Living Wish based Dragon and Gamekeeper to recognize a good thing when I see it.

I think as the deck exists now, it can handle its problems or win without needing another wish, which weakens your sideboarding options. This deck is designed to generate red and black mana, not green, which is where in my opinion, burning wish far outshines any other option for utility.

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Originally Posted by noobslayer

I think as the deck exists now, it can handle its problems or win without needing another wish, which weakens your sideboarding options. This deck is designed to generate red and black mana, not green, which is where in my opinion, burning wish far outshines any other option for utility.

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It's not that I don't agree, I do, but that line of thinking leads to stagnation.

This article explains a lot of the thought process that brought me to test Living Wish and re-evaluate all of the card slots in the deck,

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/7911.html

It's a good read.

I could see an additional wish being good in a deck like TES, especially if it's replacing cards like the 2nd Tendrils, etc.

However, it seems the way you'd want to play Living Wish is different than the way you'd want to play Burning Wish. Sure, you can Living Wish for stuff like Magus of the Jar or Future, but that just seems redundant when we have Diminishing Returns, which costs less and is less vulnerable.

It seems like the stuff you want to grab with Living Wish are alternative win conditions, like Tomb of Urami, etc. or are just utility guys like Dark Confidant, etc.

I think what we need to consider when examining the possibilty of Living Wish is "Is TES a deck that can afford to devote maindeck slots to cards that do not further its main game plan? Do we want lots of paths to victory at the cost of making those paths less steady?"

On one hand, one of TES's big strengths, as it exists now, are in its multiple paths to victory. Whether it's through Ill-Gotten Gains or Diminishing Returns, Tendrils of Agony or Empty the Warrens, one of the major reasons to play TES over, say, Iggy-Pop is that it can win in a variety of ways. Having Living Wish can strengthen this element.

On the other hand, though TES packs multiple paths to victory, they tend to rely on the same cards. Whether you get Ill-Gotten Gains or Diminishing Returns, for example, you get them with the same tutors and use them with the same acceleration. So aside from just a couple of slots, these extra win routes don't really dilute the deck much, in the way that adding a card like Living Wish might.

One argument I really see in favor of BreathWeapon's proposed change is the fact that he removes excess MD winconditions to include the Wish. I've always thought that the extra Tendrils and EtW tend to clog up the MD, but I've been back-and-forth on what to run instead.

Personally, I think at least testing out Living Wish makes sense. However, even if doesn't work out, the testing can show us something important: that the deck can function well (and perhaps better) with only 1 Tendrils and 1-2 EtW maindeck.

You need two Tendrils in the main deck for:

1) Double shot Tendrils, which is significant against some decks.
2) In case you remove one through Plunge (or Returns) you still have one to Infernal Tutor for. Nothing is more frustrating than realizing you have the win in terms of storm and no win condition to grab.

With Burning Wish I've rarely (never, actually) had problems getting a second Tendrils, or getting it on the off chance it's RFG'd.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Second, I don't think it's your place to tell me how I play this deck, when you've never seen me play it. I know how I play it, and I think you actually have Wastedlife and me completely confused.

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You are correct, and forgive me if I came across as telling you how you play the deck as that was not my intention. I simply said that you aren't playing TES - you're altering a TES decklist into your own style combo which, given the way you've admitted you play, (you look for, and expect a longer game) you aren't playing TES.

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The difference is Wastedlife wins big and Breathweapon wins small, it's this disagreement that has led us to all of our arguments, from SBing a Right of Flame and MDing a Seething Song, three Empty the Warrens vs one Empty the Warrens, Chain of Vapor vs Shattering Spree, Simian Spirit Guide vs Right of Flame, Duress vs Xantid Swarm, whether or not this deck wins more with Diminishing Returns or Ill Gotten Gains and now whether or not Living Wish is a viable consideration in this deck.

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I believe you are exacting my point that you are straying from TES into your own archetype. As has been stated by many, many people before, including the deck's creator, this deck is expected to have a turn 1 - 4 clock. (i.e. winning big) Your usage of Living Wish is not congruent to that goal because, at best, it adds one turn to the clock and at worst, you get timewalked multiple times. Winning small is just not what combo does. You're working on creating a new spinoff from TES that is more combo-control. And again, like I said before, I hope it does well for you. I never wish people to do poorly with their ideas, but Living Wish =/= TES.

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All of the cards that are required according to Wastedlife, Earthquake is debatable, because the deck shouldn't take the time to answer a single Meddling Mage and a second Meddling Mage can be placed on Burning Wish.

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Actually, Earthquake is probably the staple in my sideboard. I've Wished for it to end the game when my only card in hand was a topdecked Wish. I've used it in the mirror when my opponent combos out before me and drops 10 - 20 tokens. I've used it in longer games as an effective Wrath of God against Thresh and in shorter games against goblins. I've used it against MULTIPLE Mages naming Tendrils/Warrens.

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I think the SB you posted is seriously redundant, I could cut the second Empty the Warrens, second Tendrils of Agony, Chainer's Edict, Tranquility and Shattering Spree for Hull Breach and be -4 cards and just fine.

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This is true, you could. However when it comes to game 2/3, I'll actually have answers to MD such as a 3rd Tendrils and a 2nd ETW (I only play 1 ETW MD) and you'll be stuck leaving them in the board as wish targets. A double wishboard, as has been the case in past decks and many past arguements, severely hinders your ability to actually sideboard things into your deck in your marginal or bad matchups which is what you should be focusing on.

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1 Minion of the Wastes
1 Magus of the Jar
X Dark Confidant

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Your entire Living Wishboard is useless against the most common deck in the format - Goblins, leaving you with 2-4 dead slots in your deck.

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That leaves 7 open slots in the SB, since one of the Living Wish slots was in the SB to begin with, and that's one more open slot than Wastedlife has with out Living Wish.

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Could you post your entire board for us? I'm simply curious to see your choices including a living wishboard.

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People can argue over the MD slots and the strength of Living Wish to death, but considering I'm the one person that has tested the card in the deck, I'm going to state that the card can be between a 2/3x, it is strong, and that Dark Confidant, Minion of the Wastes and Magus of the Jar are all good tutor targets.

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I'd fully agree that they are good wish targets if you could get them with Burning Wish. However, you can't so all you do is use up valuable resources and mini-combo out to get a card from your sideboard that then allows your opponent to untap and respond, and guess what, all it takes is a single land and one card in their hand to completely disrupt your entire turn. Stop being fancy and just win. I'd hate to see you spend 5+ cards to play a minion of the wastes to have your opponent swords it, (at least you'd get your life back) edict it, wrath it, damnation it etc.. GG sir.

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No one is casting Living Wish for Magus of the Jar on turn one, casting Magus of the Jar on turn two and activating Magus of the Jar on turn three. Living Wish for Magus of the Jar is a second or third threat that grinds the opponent out of the game,

For instance, TES is on the draw, it's game 2, the opponent puts a Tundra on the board, go.

Cast Xantid Swarm, opponent casts Swords to Plowshares, now at this point Living Wish can tutor for the Xantid Swarm and protect another threat or another threat can be cast.

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Yes, because I always have 3 green mana on turn one to play a Xantid Swarm twice and a Living Wish without dumping my entire hand.

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The opponent puts an Island on the board, taps both lands to cast Meddling Mage naming LED, go.

Cast Burning Wish, opponent casts Force of Will, and now Living Wish can either tutor up a Dark Confidant to win small or Magus of the Jar to win big on the following turns.

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You're assuming quite a bit. You are assuming that 1) You have either 3RGB for Confidant or 5RGUU for Magus of the Jar (which if you manage to do, either chews through shit tons of resources that could be used for storm count to JUST WIN) and that 2) your opponent has no other answer to your play via STP, Edict, Gempalm, any infinite number of burn spells, another counter, etc. And if they do, you JUST LOSE. Again, too much risk and wasted resources for a storm based combo deck to expend.

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more scenarios and theoreticals

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As for your other "what-if" scenarios, it's all going to come down to the skill of the player, not having additional wishes and more options in the sideboard. We could argue theoreticals all day long, giving best case scenario after best case scenario, and "I'd do this because I'd have the perfect hand to combat XXXX" and it's going to get us nowhere. The deck, as it stands now, has the flexibility to combat blue control WITH A SKILLED PILOT. Given your scenarios, I'm assuming that you are afraid of islands. Well, sometimes with combo, you just have to go for it. I've done it plenty of times and sometimes I've gotten my hand smacked for trying, but I still managed to win. Because of the decks mass tutors, it top decks amazingly well so if you do fizzle, you can still win. I've done it many times.

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Minion of the Wastes is not "just stupid," this could come as a surprise, but there are aggro-control and control decks that don't use Swords to Plowshares, GAT, Faerie Stompy, U/g/r Threshold, U/g/b Threshold and a slew of other home brew decks.

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Again, a good pilot will already be able to beat a blue based deck. Stop being scared of islands and adding cards that are unnecessary to win. You're actually cutting your efficiency against the matchups that you're most likely to see (Goblins, UGw Thresh, combo) to make your deck only minorly more efficient, if any, against the decks you listed.

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Infernal Tutor for the Ill Gotten Gains chain costs 8 mana the same amount of mana as Living Wish for Minion of the Wastes

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Wrong.
:3: BBB vs. :4:BBBG
BIIIIIG difference. one requires a dark/cabal rit or LED and any other mana. The other requires a dark/cabal rit or LED an additional G, and any other mana. Trying to fit that single G mana is tougher than you make it sound on top of 7 other mana.

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and an unprotected Infernal Tutor for the Ill Gotten Gains chain gives the opponent the same amount of outs, Force of Will and Stifle, as a Minion of the Wastes, Force of Will and Swords to Plowshares, and Swords to Plowshares can be baited with Xantid Swarms or SB Dark Confidants etc.

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theoreticals..... great pilots don't care..... seeing a trend against blue decks yet? (Not to mention that you aren't always going to be playing against FoW's.

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It isn't a bad card, but you'd actually have to test it to know that.

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No I don't. If it doesn't fit the deck philosophy, it either doesn't belong or it's a different deck. In your case, it's a different deck. Sorry, but that's the truth.

@People

One of the interesting things about Living Wish is that it doesn't change the fundamental nature of the deck, just removing the redundant MD win conditions and SB slots allows Living Wish to be included with out disturbing the basic premise.

Since I started using Simian Spirit Guide, and now Living Wish, I've noticed that the two cards reinforce TES's general game plan, put a Xantid Swarm on the board and win with Tendrils of Agony, by protecting the Xantid Swarm from Daze and Swords to Plowshares.

One of the things that still bothers me tho' is the "redundant" argument. What is it about having Magus of the Jar and Diminishing Returns in the SB that makes it redundant and having two Diminishing Returns and two Ill Gotten Gains between the SB and MD that doesn't make them redundant? Infernal Tutor can tutor for Ill Gotten Gains better than Burning Wish can and Burning Wish can tutor for Diminishing Returns better than Infernal Tutor can, but we still include two of each between the MD and the SB in order TO BE redundant.

Magus of the Jar isn't redundant in the SB, because the SB isn't built in the traditional sense; in fact, the SB is separated into three mini-SBs, one for Burning Wish, one for Living Wish and one for whatever is left. None of the mini-SBs should take into account what the other SB is using, because each one exists separate from the other, and each one must have enough targets for their respective wishes in order to be viable.

Being redundant isn't the issue, being certain that Living Wish can support a Tendrils or Warrens win with a storm engine is the issue, and having a storm engine that doesn't require the opponent to draw a new hand or both players discard and redraw their hand is something no other storm engine can offer.

If Burning Wish and Living Wish were in hand, then of course Burning Wish becomes the alpha threat and Living Wish becomes the beta threat, because Burning Wish is the one tutor that the opponent will counter, besides Plunge into Darkness, because it can tutor for an uncounterable win condition (assuming that isn't being used in conjunction with LED) After the Burning Wish draws out the counter, Living Wish can consider getting Magus of the Jar. If the Burning Wish doesn't draw out the counter, then there is no counter, and Burning Wish can "just win."

Even in the reverse, Living Wish can be used to tutor for a Dark Confidant and draw out the counter for Burning Wish, or if there is no counter, just crush the opponent under the weight of card advantage and/or "just win."

In either case, Burning Wish gets precedence over Living Wish, because it was either cast first or Living Wish was used with the soul intention of drawing out the counter and not "just winning."

@Sycik

No offense taken,

Damn right I'm scared of Island, I go from being the one card win condition to the one card lose condition the moment that land hits the table, 4 Force of Will and 4 Stifle reverse the roles of the two decks, combo becomes control and control becomes the deck that can win in a single turn (or combo goes for the coin flip, but flipping coins isn't how a game of Magic should be won)

I believe combo can, and does, win small, and I know that Semmenen would agree with me. If the basic principle behind TES is to "Go big or go home," then TES is going to be worse at it then Belcher. Believe me, I've been behind both TES and Belcher for more games than I care to recall, and the deciding factor for me between the two decks is which deck can win small and use skill, and TES is that deck.

In regards to all of the comments on Living Wish,

Those weren't theoreticals, those were from actual games. You need to put Living Wish in your hand and draw 6 more cards before you can understand how the card works in the deck, just from those counter arguments I can see that you don't exactly get it yet. I am not doing all of that stuff over the course of a single turn, I am doing all of that stuff over the course of two turns to grind the opponent out of the game.

Believe me, good pilots should give a damn against theoreticals, counting outs is the single most important skill a pilot can have with combo. There's a big difference between not giving a shit and taking a calculated risk.

I am not a fan of SBing in more win conditions, drawing Tendrils is a mulligan and Warrens is begging for Stifle or Engineered Explosives, from using 3 Warrens MD for a long time, I'm at the point where I SB them out game 2 for Dark Confidants just so I can side step the opponent's hate.

I have a stripped down SB, with about six open slots between the 2-3 extra Dark Confidant and 1-4 Shattering Spree.

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Deconstruct (Awesome)
1 Duress
1 Minion of the Wastes
1 Magus of the Jar
4 Dark Confidant
3 Shattering Spree

and a teched out SB, where I just have extra Dark Confidants for SBing in.

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grape Shot (This is the reason Meddling Mages shouldn't be naming two win conditions)
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Deconstruct (again, Awesome)
1 Duress
1 Minion of the Wastes
1 Magus of the Jar
4 Dark Confidant
1 Tomb of Urami
1 Indrik Stomphowler (You mite as well get a fat ass for all of your trouble)

Minion of the Wastes is a solid win condition, either the opponent threw his Swords to Plowshares at the Xantid Swarm or he's holding a Stifle, and against a lot of decks there's just no answer to him (no one is going to be able to cast Wrath of God before they lose, not that any one plays the card, and no one is going to able to cast Damnation with out a Dark Ritual. Pernicious Deed and Engineered Explosives can't kill him, Stifle can't touch him and that's what makes him good). The Ill Gotten Gains chain requires 8 mana at the least, 2 mana for Infernal Tutor and 6 additional mana for the loop, it's easier to cast Minion of the Wastes then it is to cast the Ill Gotten Gains chain in this deck, because it doesn't require Hellbent and the mana cost can be reduced for a Time Walk.

Dude, I hard cast Diminishing Returns in this deck all the time, getting G and B in the same turn in a deck with 10 golden land, 4 Lotus petal and 4 Chrome Mox isn't that hard.

Minion of the Wastes owns Goblins, ever seen the reaction on an opponent's face when he casts a turn one Aether Vial and you cast a turn one 10/10 Tramper?

has anyone considdered,

Pact of Negation 0 Mana (Rare)

Instant
Pact of Negation is blue.
Counter target spell.
At the beginning of your next upkeep, pay 3UU Mana. If you don't, you lose the game.

isn't this a nice way to protect your combo?

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Originally Posted by DeDennis

has anyone considdered,

Pact of Negation 0 Mana (Rare)

Instant
Pact of Negation is blue.
Counter target spell.
At the beginning of your next upkeep, pay 3UU Mana. If you don't, you lose the game.

isn't this a nice way to protect your combo?

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Counters don't work with LED or the Ill Gotten Gains chain, and it prevents the deck from using Empty the Warrens to win.

It is however the bees knees in something like Belcher.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

One of the interesting things about Living Wish is that it doesn't change the fundamental nature of the deck, just removing the redundant MD win conditions and SB slots allows Living Wish to be included with out disturbing the basic premise.

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It certainly does change the nature of the deck, you now lose to aggro playing Swords to Plowshares. That is much different than casting Tendrils for lethal. Redundant MD win conditions? The only redundant one is Empty the Warrens which you happen to play three of, two Tendrils is nessesary if one get's removed. You don't ever want to be reliant on Burning Wish to find you storm cards against control. How does Living Wish not desturb the deck? You're switching your role from combo to aggro with Minion of the Waste.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Since I started using Simian Spirit Guide, and now Living Wish, I've noticed that the two cards reinforce TES's general game plan, put a Xantid Swarm on the board and win with Tendrils of Agony, by protecting the Xantid Swarm from Daze and Swords to Plowshares.

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This has always been the plan, without Simian Sprit Guide and Living Wish.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

One of the things that still bothers me tho' is the "redundant" argument. What is it about having Magus of the Jar and Diminishing Returns in the SB that makes it redundant and having two Diminishing Returns and two Ill Gotten Gains between the SB and MD that doesn't make them redundant? Infernal Tutor can tutor for Ill Gotten Gains better than Burning Wish can and Burning Wish can tutor for Diminishing Returns better than Infernal Tutor can, but we still include two of each between the MD and the SB in order TO BE redundant.

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Diminishing Returns effect doesn't end at the end of turn and doesn't lose to Lightning Bolt. Two great reasons to play Returns over Magus of the Jar, Magus of the Jar is too much of a risk to be taken seriously. Now for the redundant arguement. You want both Returns and Ill-Gotten Gains to avoid hate, if you are trying to dodge graveyard hate adding an additional 1R to 3BUU isn't attractive at all; even with Lion's Eye Diamond. Infernal Tutor does have better synergy with Ill-gotten Gains than Burning Wish, however, a common play I do is Infernal(Revealing: Lion's Eye Diamond) then Burning Wishing. I then have a tutor in the graveyard so I can loop. Also, a slot in the sideboard for Ill-Gotten Gains never goes to waste. Ill-Gotten Gains is always a gauranteed victory where as Diminishing returns isn't, so Gains is often safer.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Magus of the Jar isn't redundant in the SB, because the SB isn't built in the traditional sense; in fact, the SB is separated into three mini-SBs, one for Burning Wish, one for Living Wish and one for whatever is left. None of the mini-SBs should take into account what the other SB is using, because each one exists separate from the other, and each one must have enough targets for their respective wishes in order to be viable.

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Your sideboard may not be built in a traditional senses, however, everyone else's happens to be. The sideboard I posted is a very traditional SB for combo with a wish. There's no reason to play Living Wish though, you've yet to post a solid reason of why it's needed. Right now it's just another cool trick in my eyes, what advantages does it have over the cards being cut for it? Tendrils wins you the game now where Minion wins the game in three turns. Empty the Warrens clock is a whole turn faster without the loss of life and I'm not sure what else you cut but I'm sure it's better.

While I agree that Living Wish could be worse than the two cards I cut for it, 2 Empty the Warrens, that doesn't mean it's not an option for people to consider if Empty the Warrens isn't there cup of tea.

Edit: Two Tendrils is redundant, being redundant is the point of two Tendrils, to have another in case the other is removed (kind of like your kidney's). Two or three Warrens is also redundant, but not in the same sense, because Warrens wants to be in the starting hand or with in range of Plunge into Darkness while Tendrils doesn't.

As far as Living Wish not changing the deck goes, what I mean is that if I don't draw Living Wish, then the rest of the deck performs in the same sense as the other versions of TES, no critical component was cut for its inclusion. When I do draw Living Wish, of course Living Wish "changes" the deck from the other versions of TES.

I'm going to premise this with that I have never seen a deck that has used MD Swords to Plowshares in aggro or Swords to Plowshares and Lightning Bolt in aggro-control, I am not casting Minion of the Wastes into Swords to Plowshares or Magus of the Jar into Lightning Bolt; to insinuate that I am as a counter argument for the card's possible inclusion is a straw man argument against Living Wish. While I realize that creature removal is a detterent to the use of the card, with the appropriate skill, the pilot can tutor for Dark Confidant against Swords to Plowshares, Minion of the Wastes or Tomb of Urami against Lightning Bolt and Magus of the Jar when the coast is clear etc.

Yes, casting a Xantid Swarm and resolving a Tendrils of Agony was always the game plan, and it still is the game plan, but Simian Spirit Guide and Living Wish are good at assisting that game plan via countering Dazes on Xantid Swarm or recurring Xantid Swarm after a Swords to Plowshares, so it's not as if the cards are "alien" to the deck.

The second Ill Gotten Gains and Diminishing Returns remark was a rhetorical question, I understand the reason both of them are there.

I'm starting to think that the SB argument is a sham, because even with the full Living Wish board, I can still SB in the exact same cards against Threshold and Goblins as those cards that are listed on the primer (Shattering Spree is debatable against Goblins, sometimes Earthquake was just as good).

Need was never a premise for including Living Wish, but as far as what Living Wish offers the deck, MD access to Dark Confidant, Tomb of Urami (yeah, I know it's already in there, but it's completely random) and a Stifle proof threat in Minion of the Wastes. I like the fact that Magus of the Jar isn't permanent, I'm just using it to either combo off or get the resources I invested in it back and then some with out rearming the opponent.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

One of the interesting things about Living Wish is that it doesn't change the fundamental nature of the deck, just removing the redundant MD win conditions and SB slots allows Living Wish to be included with out disturbing the basic premise.

Since I started using Simian Spirit Guide, and now Living Wish, I've noticed that the two cards reinforce TES's general game plan, put a Xantid Swarm on the board and win with Tendrils of Agony, by protecting the Xantid Swarm from Daze and Swords to Plowshares.

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I think this is the strongest artugment for the inclusion of Living Wish- that it removes somewhat redundant pieces for additional utility. The question is whether redundancy or utility is stronger at this point.

What we have to be aware of is that, at some point, if we keep adding utility in the place of redundancy, eventually the deck is going to get diluted to the point that its primary win condition is ultimately weakened to the point of breaking. We really have to find that line and be careful not to cross it.

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Originally Posted by outsideangel

I think this is the strongest artugment for the inclusion of Living Wish- that it removes somewhat redundant pieces for additional utility. The question is whether redundancy or utility is stronger at this point.

What we have to be aware of is that, at some point, if we keep adding utility in the place of redundancy, eventually the deck is going to get diluted to the point that its primary win condition is ultimately weakened to the point of breaking. We really have to find that line and be careful not to cross it.

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That's about the best answer,

I imagine the min/max for Living Wish is 2/3 with 1 Tendrils, 1 Ill Gotten Gains, 1 Empty the Warrens in the MD with Diminishing Returns MD being the question mark because the Empty the Warrens is another out against a Force of Will in the discard pile and doesn't need a storm engine.

I'm not certain I would ever cut a Plunge into Darkness, even when the deck draws two, the second can always "cycle."

I'm going to grow some balls and take a 3xLiving Wish build with a full Living Wish SB to a tournament this weekend and see how I do with it.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

I believe combo can, and does, win small, and I know that Semmenen would agree with me. If the basic principle behind TES is to "Go big or go home," then TES is going to be worse at it then Belcher. Believe me, I've been behind both TES and Belcher for more games than I care to recall, and the deciding factor for me between the two decks is which deck can win small and use skill, and TES is that deck.

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If you look at how Smmenen plays Gifts and Grim Long, you'll realize that it's the same recurring pattern when he plays those decks: He plays it small until he can set-up a big win or he wins now. I'm sure Bryant does that too, but I dont it's actually for the long game. When he plays with Confidant, he makes sure it does those simple tasks to make he's long game is easier for him to make Tendrils lethel at that time with all the cards he's seen with confidant active.

If you look at how Smmenen plays against Control (depending on the hand usually), he usually goes off right there regardless of what they have, or he sets-up Mind's Desire. The way he plays Gifts is somewhat similair as well, as he tries and wear them out and then go-off or he goes off now.

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Originally Posted by Anti~American4621

If you look at how Smmenen plays Gifts and Grim Long, you'll realize that it's the same recurring pattern when he plays those decks: He plays it small until he can set-up a big win or he wins now. I'm sure Bryant does that too, but I dont it's actually for the long game. When he plays with Confidant, he makes sure it does those simple tasks to make he's long game is easier for him to make Tendrils lethel at that time with all the cards he's seen with confidant active.

If you look at how Smmenen plays against Control (depending on the hand usually), he usually goes off right there regardless of what they have, or he sets-up Mind's Desire. The way he plays Gifts is somewhat similair as well, as he tries and wear them out and then go-off or he goes off now.

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It's all semantics, we're all ending the game in a single turn with Tendrils, in a few turns with Warrens or, in my case, a couple turns with Minion.

The difference is I win small(er) than Wastedlife, using Warrens to avoid Force of Will and turn Dark Ritual into a counter target on the first turn, since Simian Spirit Guide is uncounterable, bait Daze to keep the opponent off of Meddling Mage and Counterspell and now Living Wish to recur Xantid Swarms and/or drop Dark Confidants on the opponent until the card advantage and 2 points of damage a turn grinds them out of the game.

IMO, I'm more prepared for aggro-control and the "if the opponent draws permission and/or hate and I don't draw Xantid Swarm" scenarios, and I get to win small(er) with the little synergies like being able to RFG a Xantid Swarm with Plunge into Darkness while searching for LED and tutor up the Xantid Swarm again with Living Wish and cast it on the next turn etc.

Edit: For the record the Art/Ench removal card in the SB is Harmonic Sliver, tho' that stupid Vindicate Sliver is tempting. Hell, Vindicate is just tempting.

I just read that as, "I don't understand how play TES."

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

No one is casting Living Wish for Magus of the Jar on turn one, casting Magus of the Jar on turn two and activating Magus of the Jar on turn three. Living Wish for Magus of the Jar is a second or third threat that grinds the opponent out of the game,

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I thought that was the reason Bob was in the board for. I guess I was wrong a wasted SB slot on something that does not do anything does something...[/sarcasm]
Seriously, Burning Wish is the best tutor in the deck. Wasting 3 spots that is going to nothing is just wreaking the deck.

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For instance, TES is on the draw, it's game 2, the opponent puts a Tundra on the board, go.

Cast Xantid Swarm, opponent casts Swords to Plowshares, now at this point Living Wish can tutor for the Xantid Swarm and protect another threat or another threat can be cast.

The opponent puts an Island on the board, taps both lands to cast Meddling Mage naming LED, go.

Cast Burning Wish, opponent casts Force of Will, and now Living Wish can either tutor up a Dark Confidant to win small or Magus of the Jar to win big on the following turns.

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And you will need two lands and somehow not have the jar be counted and recover to win.

The best was to do this is to go the ETW route or wish for Quake..........Since L Wish requires green mana is not going to help with the combo plan.

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Now for a second premise.

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kk

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The opponent puts a Tundra on the board, go.

TES has a hand that can combo out, but it doesn't have protection, Xantid Swarm, or an alternate threat, Empty the Warrens, to play around any of the opponent's disruption, you Brainstorm and reveal more mana and pass the turn.

The opponent puts an Island on the board, go

Living Wish in hand, Infernal Tutor and more than enough mana to combo off in hand. Cast Dark Ritual, cast Living Wish and cast Dark Confidant, the opponent casts Force of Will on Dark Confidant. If the opponent had Swords to Plowshares he would have cast it, if all the opponent had in his was Force of Will he would be set up for a loss.

The opponent puts a Tropical Island on the board, casts a threat, go.

At this point it smells like Stifle, combo off into Diminishing Returns and proceed to have a prayer.

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I will give you that Living Wish will give you a "Neat Trick." but that is all that is neat.

[/quote]Now for a third premise.

Opponent puts a Fetchland on the board and cracks it for Tundra, go.

Cast Xantid Swarm, opponent casts Swords to Plowshares on Xantid Swarm.

Opponent puts an Island on the board, go.

The opponent has another card, it's either going to be Force of Will or Stifle, the hand has enough mana to combo off and needs to consider doing it right now, the opponent has cast one Swords to Plowshares, if he has Force of Will he wins regardless, if he has Stifle ... Living Wish for Minion of the Wastes at 19/19 ... he had Stifle.[/quote]
Always assume that the opponet is holding a FOW. Even the Burn might have a "Fow" in there hand.
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All your situation that you gave will get out the counters. But there is nothing to recover form having your plan foiled.

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Minion of the Wastes is not "just stupid," this could come as a surprise, but there are aggro-control and control decks that don't use Swords to Plowshares, GAT, Faerie Stompy, U/g/r Threshold, U/g/b Threshold and a slew of other home brew decks.

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Yes, Minion of the Wastes is stupid. Three Points:
Litte known fact: All aggro-control decks run StP and/or Fow
There is Anti-synergy with City of Brass and Plunge into Darkness
They are not going to counter the Living wish.... they will counter the threat or have removal in your hand.

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Infernal Tutor for the Ill Gotten Gains chain costs 8 mana, the same amount of mana as Living Wish for Minion of the Wastes, and an unprotected Infernal Tutor for the Ill Gotten Gains chain gives the opponent the same amount of outs, Force of Will and Stifle, as a Minion of the Wastes, Force of Will and Swords to Plowshares, and Swords to Plowshares can be baited with Xantid Swarms or SB Dark Confidants etc.

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Actually IT -> IGG is 6 mana not 8. How is living wish helping the situation then, if you played Igg?


My biggest problem with the wish that is does NOTHING mid-combo.
I am selling Living Wish. I rather run the blue Pact then wish.

Feel free to run it. I am not going to stop you. I am just going to see you fizzle more with Living wish in the deck.

I don't know how to use TES?

The Ill Gotten Gains chain is a minimum of EIGHT MANA, 2 mana to cast Infernal Tutor, 4 mana to cast Ill Gotten Gains and then 2 more mana to recast the Infernal Tutor, assuming that the deck used 2 LED in order to generate the 6 mana needed for Ill Gotten Gains and the second Infernal Tutor, and it's the same for Burning Wish with an Infernal Tutor in the discard pile.

The color of Living Wish does not matter, as long as there is another source of mana on the board, a second land, Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal or even LED and SSG there's no problem.

Edit: I use SSG and not Right of Flame, so the mana doesn't bottle neck into black and red as bad as it does in other lists.

What is "Mid Combo" in TES? This isn't Solidarity, there is no "Mid Combo," if you mean before the combo, it either recurs Xantid Swarm, plays Dark Confidant, plays Tomb of Urami or it doesn't matter at all and I just win with it.

Aggro-control uses Force of Will and Swords to Plowshares? People wont counter the tutors before the tutor target? It's bad to cast Minion of the Wastes after a Plunge into Darkness? NO WAY! Dude, I've bean playing the deck just as long as Wastedlife has, I know what I am doing.

You can do it on 7. If you have a Dark Ritual and an LED, you can Tutor for Ill-Gotten Gains (2 mana) cast I'll-Gotten Gains (6 mana) recurring Dark Ritual, LED, Tutor, cast Dark Ritual (7 mana) and the ritual and LED will give you enough mana to replay the tutor and then play the Tendrils or EtW you grab with it.

Anyway, is there a viable wincondition with Living Wish that doesn't suck? What about Storm Entity, so that if for some reason you can't find a good tutor Living Wish can still get a wincon that doesn't cost a billion mana and life?

Also, Mesmeric Fiend for disruption seems good.

My Living Wishboard might looks something like:

Storm Entity
Mesmeric Fiend
Dark Confidant
Tomb of Urami

This gives you card advantage, a mana source, disruption, a storm-based win condition, and an alternate win condition. Fiend could become Uktabi Orangutan or Harmonic Sliver if you're more worried about artifact/enchantment hate than about countermagic.

Right, I I forgot that LED leaves two mana floating after the IGG chain for some reason, serves me for getting aggrivated.

The problem I had with Mesmeric Fiend was that it took up another slot in the SB and Dark Confidant manages to do the same thing in a different manner, and I don't like taking up slots in the SB for cards that can be RFGed with Plunge into Darkness and tutored for later; for instance if Plunge into Darkness RFG's Xantid Swarm then Living Wish for Xantid Swarm would just be better.

Storm Entity is a card I couldn't get to work with Right of Flame, but I never tested him with Simian Spirit Guide. If the deck can manage to get the green mana after a Diminishing Returns for Living Wish off of a land drop, Lotus Petal or a Chrome Mox then I imagine getting the Red mana would be a lot easier at 0 for R to resolve a really big Storm Entity at a really low price.

I'm going to test him in the SB and see how he does, Tomb of Urami could get the axe for him if he proves to be worthwhile.

Man, Minion of the Wastes is so good at turning busted hands into a win vs decks that can't answer him, just PT against Faerie Stompy and you'll see exactly what I mean.