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If you went turn 1 Trinisphere and turn 2 Smokestacks, why not finish the game with a Turn 3 Crucible of Worlds? You could have drawn that Crucible of Worlds instead of Eater of days. Chances are that your opponent can't do anything at this point, especially if you Turn 1 Trinisphere on the play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mullen
Obviously, this is a really good hand, and you can't really expect to see this hand too often.
Favorable Matchups:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mullen
Threshold U/G/W - U/G/R - Great matchup. The deck was designed do hate on thresh. If your playing in a meta where they run Engineered Explosives you should consider Pithing Needle to stop it from blowing up Chalice and all your 3 drops. Aside from that its easy.
5/3- No testing but Id imagine you have the edge since Magus blocks everything and crucible + factories make it impossible to connect. You run geddon not them so Id say your favored.
Blue Skies- No testing. Id assume its close to thresh.
CAL- I have no testing against CAL but I speculate they're doomed if you ramp stack to two.
T.E.S. - Id say this matchup is in your favor slightly but obviously depends who's on the play. Wasteland is big here so if your not running it you might see a drop in win percentage. Dont forget Ghostly Prison still nurfs goblins but dont weigh your hand just hoping they'll go for warrens kill.
HanniFish (U/W/B Fish)- This is a hard match to lose.
Fish Varients- Easy. The reason to play stax.
CEPHALID BREAKFAST Varients (Karmic Guide, Kiki Jiki) - Combo is usually a great matchup but this one functions a bit differently. It depends if your running Suppression Field or not.
Iggy Pop- This matchups depends what you open up with. Mulligan away the Magus and Prisons and try to focus on 3sphere's and Chalice. Id say this is 60-40 you.
Solidarity- 60-40 your favor. Ive never lost this but its possible if you draw shit while playing. Geddon is amazing against them. Everything else is counter bait.
50/50 Matchups:
Vial Goblins Varients - This actually depends a bit if they run Tin Street Hooligan. Otherwise Id say its 55-60% your favor. Dropping Magus can be game over and the matchup is greatly determined on whether or not you got a Ghostly Prison to connect.
Madness Varients - Madness can actually be tough altho its outdated insufficient thresh. Simply since they're curve isnt hit by Chalice anywhere near as bad. Look out for Arrogant Wurms. Roar you can hit with explosives.
Stompy Varients - Other stompy varients are about 50/50. You can power things out just as fast and they crumble to Smokestack.
MIRROR MATCH???- Ive never played this but Id imagine it depends who gets Crucible.
Belcher - This matchup is probably 50/50. It depends who plays. If you live to turn 3-4 you'll usually win.
Unfavorable Matchups:
Landstill - This is another 50/50 matchup. It really depends whether or not they run Pernicious Deed or other 3-4cc sweepers such as nev's disk. The games come down to who resolves a Crucible. If they run Wastelands they can be a problem since wasting your Ancient Tomb and dropping something like Standstill can steal the game from you. Chalice isnt very strong here and I actually recommend siding it out.
Survival varients - This is actually a bad matchup for us. Not as bad as black decks but close. Almost everything in their deck is a perm which is good news against stax. If they get Survival or Rofellos online your up shit creek. Squee is even a problem since they can null smokestack with him. This is where you want some Suppression Fields. Aether Vial makes things so much worse so if they run it prepare to lose.
Truffle Shuffle - This doesnt seem like a very good matchup since they run Hymn + Witness and Deed. I dont have any personal experience against it tho.
Reanimator with Ghoul - Ghostly Prison has nothing on a 26/26 trampler. Id say this is a bad matchup but its another one I havent tested. Jotun Grunt out of the board must help out.
Salvagers Game - This is surprisingly a bad matchup. Chalice for one hurts them more than anything you have but they can still win unless Chalice is at zero. I find it a mistake to cast it @0 first however. They play Deed and have Living Wish to get Woodrippers and Gorilla Shaman. Chalice at 1 will protect you from their discard which is what makes the matchup hard. Trinisphere shines but again isnt an auto win. Id say this matchup is 40-60 their favor. If they run Deed 30-70ish.
Loam Control- Loam decks are terrible for you. Get Chalice@2 and hope they cant Krosan Grip ir or drop Deed.
Fairie Stompy- This can be worse than the other varients because of flying. You cant block flyers with Magus or Factory. Id say this is their favor.
43 Land - Any matchup against Loam is usually bad but you might catch them with an Armageddon. It depends how many Wasteland/Port they find before you Geddon. If you dont have Trinisphere out you wont do much since Loam will get them right back in the game. magus is bad here.
Deadguy Ale- Bad matchup, worse than Red Death because they have Vindicate.
Train Wreck - Same as Truffle but at least they dont have Deed.
Red Death - Not as bad as Deadguy since Chalice@one hurts them tons. First turn Negs can mean the end of you so sb Jotun Grunts and Peregrine Drakes.
__________________________________________________-
Aluren - I havent tested this.
Burning Lands- I have no idea what this is.
I think belcher is better than 50/50, especially if you run supression field. You laugh in the face of ETW, and if you manage to drop chalice / trini before they go off, you will probly win.
5/3 is harder than you might think. If they get a good draw, and go turn 2 beater, turn 3 equipment, you can be in trouble. Fetters really helps here. You need 2 creature haters on the board to really stop them, since they can gladly pay 2 mana for 6+ damage. However, 5/3 almost never gets a decent draw...
I have played against other stax lists, and almost all come down to who resolves crucible. Beware of gettting waste locked, and trying to topdeck plains. If against other geddon stax, try to hold a few lands back...
Aluren (depending on the build) is pretty easy. Their mana base is so over-extended, and fragile that you can easily disrupt it. Also, if you realize what they are palying, chalice at 2 will win. You should drop geddon as soon as possible, even if you have no crucible / flagstones / moxes in play; you will outdraw them almost every time.
I just played a couple games against 43land, and that is a terrible MU. I won a few from having crucible, trini, and waste on the board, then dropping a geddon. I then just waste locked him while i beat with muse. Your only chance is turn 1 (on play) chalice for 1, turn 2 chalice for 2.
What is burning lands?
Belcher is definitely not better than 50/50. Infact Id say its close to unfavorable. I played close to 25 pre and 25 post board against an updated list and your pretty much at loss if they have a turn one belcher win. Hell if they can simply cast the belcher you'll usually lose since they can topdeck 3 mana before you can do anything harmfull.Quote:
Originally Posted by honz
Going against EtW is easy but keeping a hand with Magus or Prison can be obsolete when they open with Belcher kill or Wish for Tendrils.
Suppression Field does nothing against Belcher at all. It messes with Tinder Wall and Belcher, it has nothing on the goblin plan. Turn one Trinisphere is not game over since they can Shattering Spree you then go off well before you have anything close to lethal damage.
5/3 I havent played much and the games I did I won by blocking with Magus and chumping with Factory/Crucible till Geddon came online. It seems like you can lose easily to a guy + equip but I havent come across it in my limited playtesting.
Aluren doesnt seem as easy as you make it sound. They're relatively unscathed against Chalice@1. I have no idea what dropping Chalice@2 would do to them..?
Are you still casting the Cavern Harpy with Aluren out? Does Trinisphere effect Aluren and how?
I haven't been maindecking Trinisphere, which actually makes Tendrils a big problem since the powerful cards there cost two and zero. Burning Wish -> Shattering Spree doesn't help that plan any. TES has little problem with just Chalice 0/1 and LD.
There are definitely four in the deck somewhere, but I think it's really hard to say since you need to have a good handle on the metagame before you can start talking about playing Control correclty.
The good versions should be red and running Razorcore, which beats the hell out of chumping with Magus. They run Welder out of the board, which can wreck you if any of your artifacts hit the ground. Also, graveyard hate cuts off recurring factories, and you don't have Bridge to lock the board down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
They also have the option of quaking you out after you've pinged yourself with Tombs.
Train Wreck runs Deed AND Crime//Punishment and basics.
With Breakfast's new found popularity, there is another reason that Pithing Needle should be somewhere in your 75 cards.
43 Land Rolls over and dies to Chalice @ 2.
After you described your matchups, is there any reason to play this deck over AT1?
AT1 in my experience has issues with aggro decks. It lowers its life a bit more since it also plays Barbarian Rings, it has no option for life gain such as Exalted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whit3 Ghost
I cant seem to win the game in a timely fashion with AT1 either. Barbarian Ring recrusion is slow and graveyard dependant.
All and all Id have to say the biggest reason I play white stax over red is Armageddon. I cant get AT1 to mimic that effect or Magus.
What matchups do you find better if playing AT1 than geddon stax?
Does it improve the Loam/Crucible, Deed, or combo matchups at all?
I'm throwing out arguments when they come to me, it's not in order.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
Well, Loam dies to Bridge, as they need to attack with manlands. You can also Chalice at 2 to shut off Loam, which is a massive setback for them. We have Goblin Welder to get back stuff killed by Deed and we have Pithing Needle to prevent Deed from being an issue.
Ensnaring Bridge is amazing against Agro, as is the fact that we can actually remove threats. We have a draw engine, so we can establish the lock at a faster rate then Geddon Stax can.
Rquake > ETW.
Boil is almost always better then Geddon against almost any deck that isn't MWC/Rifter, which sees virtually no play.
You're playing an old list then if you're having clock issues, Words of War/Wilding are asolutely nuts here (It needs a new name, because some number of AEther Flash is most likely being cut to accomodate Words.)
Who is running Exalted now?
Hmm, I did some playtesting yesterday, 10 games a match up to be exact..
Vs
Salvagers Game - 10-4 (2-0 pre-board) a problem is, chalice @ 0 is pointless game 2-3 since they can just side out the LED's and Salvagers and go straight DARKSTEEL side in, that's a BIG clock. I would recommend Chalice@1
asap game's 2-3.. Depending on if u see them siding more than 3 cards. It stops their rituals (which is their MUST HAVE if ur wastelocking them), duress, star(sphere), and spellbomb. And trinishpere is always amazing.
Vs
Cephlid Breakfast - 7-3 (2-1 Preboard). This was suprisingly easy matchup..
A turn one ANY CARD IN DECK usually does the trick.. chalice for 1 stops cantrips, vial, shuko. Suppression field is great also. I wouldn't worry too much about this deck, I also run Needles main deck x 3.. giving me kinda an advantage vs combo decks.
Vs
Burning Tog - 5-5 (1-2 preboard). This was a hard matchup.. but extremly EXTREMLY EASY if i get a turn 1-2 Chalice @ 2. This card alone almost ensures u win the game.. it stops almost 60% of their deck (including burning wish) and allows them to only win with Atog pretty much; However Suppression Field and Needle LAUGH at Psychatog. Bad matchs were when they have GOD HANDS and go, "Force Force Force, Daze, Daze, Circular Logic Psychatog.. I win" But like I said DONT CHALICE @1 OR YOU LOSE! only one spell in the deck is 1 - Brainstorm.
Vs
Threshold U/G/W- 5-2 (Ran outa time). I was suprised i did this well .. This match is completely in your favor if you go first. and they don't drop turn one Mongoose.. (Although they prolly won't) Chalice @ 1 = They lose almost no matter what.Shuts down 70% of their deck. Leaves you with wastelock easily And meddling mage doesn't hurt much unless they call stax, but you just Geddon, Magus and you win. A couple of games i Stabalized below 5 life (once at 1 life) Pithing needle on opening play force Windswept Heath is KEY, and suppression Field turn one or 2 Will hurt quite a bit on all their Fetch lands. After board you get Jotun Grunt which is AMAZING! (assuming they don't counterspell it lol), most of the time you're playing around force of wills.. just don't be too hasty or you will lose easily.
Today i'm going to go play test some more, hopefully this information can help someone. Goodluck.
Trinisphere makes anything that costs less than 3 mana to play, cost 3 mana to play. There are no exceptions. This means that Cavern Harpy would cost 1UB to play under a 3sphere with Aluren into play. Aluren cannot combo off with Trinisphere in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
On the subject of AT1/Sun Tower, that's really not for this thread. PM sent to White_Ghost and Bane of the Living.
Not true. It would cost 3 colorless mana to play Cavern Harpy through Aluren.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
Just like it would cost 3 more colorless mana after activating an Isochron Sceptor for 2 mana.
hi all , this is my first post on the source ( and not the last one )
i'm testing too stax with white , here is my list :
// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [R] Savannah
2 [TE] Wasteland
4 [EX] City of Traitors
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
1 [R] Plateau
1 [P2] Plains (1)
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
// Creatures
4 [PLC] Magus of the Tabernacle
// Spells
4 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
3 [LG] Sylvan Library
2 [CHK] Uba Mask
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [US] Smokestack
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 [U] Armageddon
2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
2 [ON] Words of War
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [UL] Goblin Welder
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [ON] Words of Worship
SB: 3 [UL] Defense Grid
i do not play main deck chalice of the void, because of rooms it takes, but i will retry with them maindeck
the mana base is quite nice but still need some works i think .
the big point of my build is that i don't know how to equilibrate things like uba library and words of war, i think i arrived to something good, but if someone got an advice
sideboard may look likes crapy and it is :p, because i'm testing words of wisdom , welder in a build where there aren't a lot of red mana , testing krosan grip and grid ( solidarity and blue deck )
Legacy Top 8 Decks from: Karlsruhe 30.06.2007
4. Oliver Salten (4-1-0)
"Stirb langsam"
Maindeck (61 cards): Sideboard: (15 cards)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere
2 Armageddon
3 Exalted Angel
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Ravages of War
3 Suppression Field
Lands (26):
3 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
2 Horizon Canopy
7 Plains
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Wasteland
3 Disenchant
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Pithing Needle
2 Pulse of the Fields
3 Rule of Law
1 Trinisphere
Thought this was interesting. He shaves down to three copies of some cards to fit some Angels and he's got the Suppression Fields in there. Horizon Canopy looks like it worked out for him as well. Gods Eye looks bad but must be better than Factory if playing with Suppression Field I guess.
As much as I may like the inclusion of Angel, that lists shows the sign of last-minute tweaking. I can't think of a single reason to play 3 Tombs, and 61 cards in a deck with zero velocity is just lazy.
Quick question: I've seen several green splashes in this deck, but has anyone considered splashing blue for Academy Ruins? That card is fucking ridiculous in this deck...at least it was in mono-blue Stax.
Is Academy Ruins better then the card selection from Sylvan Library and win conditions from Words?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
That actually is quite rude if you interpret it sarcastically, it isn't.
Depends on the matchup. I'd say that it would be better in many ways than Library because it gives the deck a heavy degree of inevitability and shores up some problematic matches (Landstill comes to mind here, since you don't really need to worry about them popping your Smokestack). Plus, you're in blue, so you can run Thirst for Knowledge at least, possibly Meditate (win-more, IMO) and Chronatog Totem for extra wins (funny as hell when you win with this in blue Stax). As for Words...well, I dunno about that. How often has overrunning the board with bears helped you win more quickly? Wouldn't Pegasus Whatchamacallit (the :2::w: one that makes Pegasus tokens for :1::w:) be better since it's in your colors and you don't have much else to do in the late game anyway? Course, Words just takes colorless, so I guess that's a valid point there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacul Kamadaka
My meta is a bit strange, my best friend builds some crazy decks and the tournament scene in my hometown (cow country) is anything but stable, but in mono white form the deck seems to be consistent and made for some broken first turns in testing. I agree with Bane of the Living, the deck destroys Threshold. It also seems very good against UBW Fish and (my general meta) random aggro.
I don’t know if I’d add another color to the deck, it seems too risky as I often want to Armageddon quickly. I have not given up on the idea, but am at a loss as to what color should be added and for what purpose.
I’ve been thinking about how the deck wins. The two main (creature) wins being discussed seem to be Exalted Angel and Duskrider Peregrine. I tried both and felt that the resources were ill spent. Instead I opted to try winning with just Mishra’s Factories and Magus of the Tabernacle. Eh… yeah, took a while, not very flashy, but it kills.
You know as an afterthought I think if I were to add a color it would be red. Been reading the posts and Goblin Welder seems hotter then two Kookaburras in a casserole dish.
Newsflash! Armageddon Stax took first and second place in a 22 person tournament. Report coming soon.
My friend went 5-0 to place first and I went 4-1 with my only loss of the day being the mirrormatch in round 4.
Metagame consisted of at least 1 Landstill, 3 Survival, 2 UGw Thresh, 1 Baseruption, 1 Ichorid, 1 Enchantress, 1 43-Land (although I think he played a bit less lands), 1 Goblins and some stuff I can't remember. I think at least 2 more decks with Counterbalance were there.
Congrats to both of you. I was weary of playing stax lately but as long as your handed good matchups it all turns out great. Whats your current list look like??Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverdragon
Can I just say btw. Im so fearfull of Gaddock Teeg.... This deck might suffer to its very end if he gets popular.
As for Lorwyn playables I really like Oblivion Ring.