[DTB] Vial Goblins

If you look at the first two builds mentioned in this thread, the build mentioned by CorruptedAngel uses it as a one-of.

My 2 cents on the card is that its a win more card. From my testing, this deck has slow start but a very high top speed, reasoning being that it takes 3 mana sources to really get going (matron, warchief, ringleader if warchief is played the turn before, etc) but this deck can come out from a bad position and just overwhelm people with hasted piledrivers if the mana permits. Kiki jiki just makes your good board position even better. In that one-of slot I perfer the Pyromancer. Gotta love mad jail breaks, and it messes with people's math.

The NoVa players have pretty much always played a copy of Kiki-Jiki. I was skeptical at first just because I couldn't find room, but I've since stuffed him in and he is of course ridiculously powerful.

Incidentally, tserious terry, Kiki is probably what you're looking for, a constant draw engine, able to make new ringleaders every turn. Even if he's stuck copying a Matron, Kiki simply wins if he isn't dealt with immediately. And Kiki is a much better source of card advantage than any sort of bounce.

I agree on Pyromancer, though. We in NoVa run him too. The Extended players found that Pyromancer was capable of speeding the deck up a full turn, and being able to steal that turn from Solidarity or Enchantress is very important.

As for your manabase, terry, 25 lands seems extremely high. You don't need 20 red sources at all; is there some reason you run so many lands?

And once again, fetchlands do not make a big difference in the number of lands you will draw, or in the effectiveness of your Ringleaders. Think about how many fetchlands you will pop before casting a Ringleader on, say, turn 4. Two, maybe? That's 6 lands out of the deck instead of 4. Let's say you've drawn 10 cards naturally (you went first), so you either have 50 cards left (without fetching) or 48 cards left (with fetching). The percentage of your deck that is now land is:

without fetches: 21/50 = 0.42
with fetches: 19/48 = 0.40

I'm not saying that the difference isn't significant, especially if the game goes long, but the tiny difference it will make in most games simply cannot justify the inclusion of Chrome Mox. This is especially true since Chrome Mox is at its best in the first couple of turns, anyway, long before fetches offer even this bit of deckthinning.

You should still run Mox because it is good in the deck regardless of how many fetchlands you run. If you are having problems drawing enough colored spells, you should cut some lands. That's the best way to reduce your chances of drawing them. :p

Good points. I have always thought that the tokens created by kiki jiki did not make the "come into play" effects. I think this was because I read somewhere that Cloud of Faeries did not untap lands if vialed out. Then I read the oracle text, now it makes sense. I think I am going to run 1 kiki jiki in my deck.

I feel that fetchlands can not be interchanged for chrome moxes. Fetchlands give you card quality (assuming that you would rather draw a card with a casting cost instead of a land) while chrome mox gives you accelleration at the price of card disadvantage. Do you really need speed when the deck consitantly goldfishes at turn 4? I would rather thin out the deck and add to consitancy, but these points are all small since as you pointed out, very marginal improvements either way. Chrome moxes wont lead to first turn wins and thining out your deck wont lead to massive improvements.

Given the mana curve, how many colored sources do you have to run? Extended decks choose to run about 15. So, how about

6x Mountain
8x Fetch
3x Waste
2x Chrome Mox

I have done alot of testing and it seem that i never really want to pitch a card for Mox.
Also the reason the Vial Goblins is better then Goblin sligh is beacause it has enough card advantage so it doesn't burn out.

Also my mana base is 19 lands

3 waste
5 fetch
11 mountains

So far it has gotten me very far in the frog tournaments.

Double posts merged. -Zilla

I agree with colosso; Chrome Mox is bad for the deck. This isn't a combo deck like FCG was per se; it doesn't need to reach a critical amount of mana by a specific turn. Far more important to its strategy is its staying power in the late game, which Chrome Mox doesn't help. Further, Chrome Mox is an awful topdeck.

I disagree with the 19 land count, however. 20 is the very very lowest it should go, and I'm inclined to say 21 might be best for the sake of stability. 19 is far too few for deck that ideally wants 4 mana by turn 4.

I think having below 20 mana sources is really a bad idea. 19 Lands is fine and all, but 3 of those are usually not going to be a mana source as they are going to be an LD spell, so you are realistically running 16 lands. That to me is not enough, as I've recently upped my land/mana base from 20 to 21.

7 Mountain
4 Badlands
2 Swamp
2 Foothills
4 Mires
2 Chrome Mox

21 Mana sources has been doing fine for me since I upped it from 20. Chrome Mox is a card I refuse to cut, as it allows for so many tricky Turn 1 plays it isn't even funny.
[*]Badlands, Therapy for Swords. No Swords? Mox imprinting the worst card in your hand, Lackey, Go.[*]Mountain, AEther Vial. Vial gets FoWed. Mox, Lackey, Go.[*]Mountain, Mox, Piledriver, go. Mountain, Warchief, swing, go.

Running more than 2 seems to be a bad choice, but the Tempo boost it provides has greatly outweighed the card it costs to work.

:Slay:


Edit: Also, the Extended versions of this deck ran anywhere from 2-4 Moxen depending upon which build and color splash you were looking at.



Edited By CorruptedAngel on 1118007389

Our differences of opinion on Chrome Mox may be derivative of the fact that I'm splashing white for SB options, where you're splashing black for Duress and/or Therapy. I agree that Therapy/Lackey is a strong first turn play, and perhaps Chrome Mox is warranted for that ability.

The most broken play you're going to make with Chrome Mox in the non-black version is first turn Lackey/Vial. With this play, you've already used 5 out of 7 of your opening hand (Land, Mox, Lackey, Vial, pitch card for Mox), meaning at most you have two threats to play out with Lackey and/or Vial over the coming turns. That is not good. It means you're in topdeck mode by turn 3 without the means to finish up the game quickly, which is bad.

Bottom line, I can see merit for 2 Moxen in the black builds. Testing has shown (for me at least) that it sucks in the non-black builds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GodzillA

Our differences of opinion on Chrome Mox may be derivative of the fact that I'm splashing white for SB options, where you're splashing black for Duress and/or Therapy.

---

I would agree with this point. With Therapy, Vial, Lackey, and Duress (after board against combo/control) the Chrome Mox allows for a variety of sick first turn plays. I can't count the amount of games I've been able to race Solidarity because Chrome allowed a turn 1 Pyro Pillar that they needed to FoW and let my other threats on turns 2/3 through, or essentially lose if they couldn't.

Chrome Mox also lets you have the wet-dream inducing turn two Warchief, which is the most powerful use of the card.

Is Pyrostatic Pillar a black card now?

Chrome Mox is great in this deck, with a splash or without. Its mana curve is so top-heavy that some hands actually require Mox to be playable, and other hands are simply amazing with Mox.

I agree with Frogboy that second-turn Warchief is strong, as is third-turn Ringleader (perhaps via a second-turn Matron) in some matchups.

In general this deck thrives on having more mana available to it in the early game, and it also has the card draw to make up for Mox's cost. I've cut down from 3 Moxen to 2 to decrease the chance of drawing multiples, but I wouldn't go any lower.

And just for the record, opening up with Lackey + Wasteland is often much more broken than Lackey + Vial.



Edited By Obfuscate Freely on 1118062900

Would it be sacreligous to consider green as a possible splash color? Green has their equivilent of disenchant with naturalize but also really strong hate with Choke. Also, a card such as Fecundity comes to mind as well, to help after a wrath or after you ping away stuff with a fanatic or SGC or when you sac things to Prospector.

I don't see why you would ever run Choke over Boil. Boil is 10 times better, especially when there is a Prospector in play.

Fecundity is over kill IMO. It doesn't do much by itself, other than when you have Warchief and Prospector going nuts.

I also disagree with Mox. I have done quite a fair bit of testing with Mox, and I never liked seeing it. If you guys are putting up the same numbers though, I'm not going to argue it, I'm just not going to play it.

Roop

21 mana is also REALLY low. Most Extended builds ran 23, since you actually need to hardcast your Siege-Gang Commander from time to time. That same conventional Extended wisdom had it as AEther Vial, or Chrome Mox, but rarely both since you can't keep your hand full of goodies for when they inevitably smash your board.

I usually have no problems hardcasting Siege-Gang or Kiki-Jiki, unless I am getting raped by Sinkholes, but I do agree that 21 mana is lower than I'd like it to be. However, I'm not quite sure I see why AEther Vial and Chrome are mutually exclusive as one or the other but not both. To me the Chrome Mox is more like Ancient Tomb was for us in Food Chain Goblins; A Permanent mana boost with some form of disadvantage. Except instead of paying 2 life every time I tap it, I remove a card in my hand from the game. It speeds me up at a cost and allows me to obtain my objectives quicker. While I do understand the concept of not being able to keep your hand full when you are tossing cards to Chrome and Vialing critters out, I don't think it'll be a large issue in enough matches if you play the deck properly and don't over-extend into Wrath of God... Unless you are holding a Living Death or Bidding that you know won't be countered.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kirdape3

21 mana is also REALLY low. Most Extended builds ran 23, since you actually need to hardcast your Siege-Gang Commander from time to time. That same conventional Extended wisdom had it as AEther Vial, or Chrome Mox, but rarely both since you can't keep your hand full of goodies for when they inevitably smash your board.

---

Just to put some numbers on that 'rarely':

26 of 106 Goblin decks that made Top 8 of a PTQ ran both Chrome Mox and Aether Vial.

24 decks (22.64% of the total) ran 2 Chrome Mox only, and of those 24, 20 ran 4 Aether Vial as well. So that means that 18.87% of the Goblin decks that made Top 8 at a PTQ ran 2 Chrome Mox and 4 Aether Vial, which is significant.

From my count, 12 decks ran 3 or 4 Chrome Mox, and only 4 of these decks ran Vial.

So it seems that if you're going to run Chrome Mox and Vial, 2 Moxen really seems to be the right number. Any more than 2 and it's time to start thinking about dropping Vial.

I got everything from here.

I could spend all day doing this.

True most extended players run diffrent mana bases.
But what i don't understand is what do you cut for the chrome mox I have tried to fit it in but i can't.
can you tell me what your build looks like so i can test it some more.
:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by calosso

True most extended players run diffrent mana bases.
But what i don't understand is what do you cut for the chrome mox I have tried to fit it in but i can't.
can you tell me what your build looks like so i can test it some more.
:)

---

The question is, whom were you directing this question to? It'd be easier to answer if we knew whom you were asking. Anyways, for reference purposes, this is my current listing.

//Mana (21)
7 Mountain
4 Badlands
2 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Chrome Mox

//Non-Goblins (6)
3 AEther Vial
3 Cabal Therapy

//Little-Red Men (33)
3 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
1 Sparksmith
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Ringleader
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker


I've been fairly happy with this build so far, and 21 mana sources hasn't been a problem thus far. Things I'm considering:
[*]Removal of Sparksmith to board. He's a great removal piece but he hasn't really been a game swinger or winner for me. Maybe I just haven't played against Madness enough.[*]AEther Vial count has done fine for me at 3. I like seeing them but I can't say I enjoy seeing them all the time, which was happening when they were a 4-of. As a 3-of, I see them enough for it to matter, but not enough to make me hate a dead mid-late game draw.[*]The 4th Ringleader might find it's way back in, but I've got a feeling if I remove Sparksmith, another land might make it in before the Ringleader simply for consistancy sake.

Also for Reference, my sideboard looks like this:

//Sideboard:
2 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Duress
3 Anarchy
3 Perish
4 Pyrostatic Pillar

Perish has been prized in my metagame for it's ability to wipe the board of the various Green decks suddenly coming back (like Secret Force) while giving me an out vs. Amazing Results II when Dave B gets Worship with Troll Ascetic on the table. Pyrostatic Pillar shores up my matchup with Solidarity and other Storm Based combo, while Anarchy is the general answer to most things white. Duress comes in from the board against Control and Combo while the Sharpshooters can be brought in for various reasons against Survival as well as other creature based decks. Things to consider:
[*]Used to run Bidding/Death in the board, but there were few matches that they were the only way for me to win. They might make their way back in with the increase in P.Deed and Kegs I've seen lately.[*]There could be a Pyromancer here somewhere, just haven't decided where.[*]Perish could likely be something better: From Pithing Needle, to Crypt, Bidding/Death.. anything.


So yea, feel free to flame, as I know some people will really want to.

Sorry but I don´t like your build because with the decision to remove a Vial and Ringleader you are cutting 2 cards which used to be the Engine of the Deck.The Vial is only really good when it hits the table in the first two turns.If you want Vial Turn 1 you should run 4 to increase the chance.Ringleader is the best Card of the Deck and I would run Leader #4 over SGC,Kiki and Incinirator all the time.3 Incinerators seem to be too much and 1 Leader and 1 Pyromancer would work better than 2 Incinirators I guess.
I also would like to add that I think that Therapy is about 10 times better than duress in this deck and that instead duress #3 in the Sideboard I would run a therapy.

just my 2 cents

ps:Do you board Perish against Survival Decks?

No he probably boards them against Solidarity's transformational sideboard!


Just to let you know my list as well:

Lands//
15x Snow-Covered Mountain
4x Wasteland

Vials//
4x AEther Vial

Gobbos//
4x Skirk Prospector
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Mogg Fanatic
4x Goblin Piledriver
1x Sparksmith
4x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Matron
4x Gempalm Incinerator
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
4x Goblin Ringleader
1x Goblin Pyromancer
1x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Kiki-Jiki Mirror Fucker

I believe that the full set of Incinerator and Fanatic are essential to support the Lackeys. I also have been fine only running 19 lands, I think you are all crazy by the way. The 5 toolbox creatures fit in now because of lack of lands. You should all probably look into this list, I don't think I can remember the last time it didn't T8 when it was played.

Roop

Yes, I removed a Vial and a Ringleader. Vial I explained why, it's a dead draw mid to late game and 3 is enough to draw reliably. Ringleader has been fine as a 3-of, because I rarely go through all 4 in 1 game (this isn't FCG) and Matrons are still a 4-of, allowing me to get one when if I need to. Also, I already stated that I might cut Sparksmith for the 4th Ringleader as Sparky hasn't been pulling his weight really. As for Incinerators, I won't cut them. Uncounterable removal is some kinda good, and when it is tutorable that's even better. Therapy is needed disruption, but it's not a Goblin. Could I switch a Duress in the board for a Therapy? Sure, no reason why you couldn't, I just prefer the 3/3 Setup.

Boarding Perish vs. Survival: I have done it before, as a Turn 3 Perish will wipe the board of any mana production critters/walls that Sharpshooter, Gempalm, and Fanatic haven't cleaned up already allowing me to set up a pretty strong attack... But they are there for Amazing Results. They're there to kill every threat that is in Amazing Results in 1 sweep so you can win, or take out a Troll that is sitting behind Worship.