[Deck] TarmoTog!

I still think Psychatog is insane (I mean look at him he like a crazy goblin eating his way out of a dudes brain), and I think this deck is very powerful although my list is slightly different (and untested so I am looking for advice here). I aslo think stinkweed imp is a great creature for a few reasons:

1. Dredge is CA, 5 to be exact, its not the same as having them in your hand but this deck utilizes the graveyard. It will either translate to 2.5 extra points tog will get though or allow you to play flashback cards.

2. He flies overhead and beats for 1 which can come into play.

3. He kills creatures, allowing me to free up creature removal spots. (I may add more creature removal after further testing but ya he kills Goyfs and tombstalkers as well, but not mystic enforcer :( Fortunately I don't see alot of those).

Creatures that take up multiple functions are valuable. Just like confidant can beat and draw cards and tog and mongrel are discard outlets and beaters.

Also CA seems to win games in legacy. This deck aims to create as much of that as possible while still maintaining a heavy disruption suite to keep things in your favor and under control. With 2 free counterspells and so many low CC, CA is invaluable.

I wanted to create a deck that was similar to where UGb threshold is going but with a better late game. I like that version best because the counter balance/top/dark confident synergy and the great sideboard options black gets. Also discard AND counterspells is brutal because your opponent cant just sit back on his or her cards anymore. Combined it is the ultimate disruption.

I didn't want to have too many dredge shenanigans because I want quality cards in my hand that I can play and I feel like too many graveyard cards would be overkill. I'm talking about wonder etc. Also being able to operate after your opponent RFG your yard is big.

4 Tarmogoyf
3 dark confidant
3 Wild Mongrel
3 Psychatog
1 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 stinkweed imp

3 top
3 counterbalance

4 FOW
4 brainstorm
4 daze
3 Deep Analysis

3 Cabal Therapy

20 land (the only double color CC is counterbalance so heavier on blue)

1 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 swamp
1 island
1 forest
12 sac lands

card choices.

Deep Analysis vs. accumulated knowledge: Paying 2 to draw one card seems really bad to me thats like cycling. I have enough dredge creatures and discard outlets to get these in the yard constantly enough. And its really like getting 2 CA or drawing 3 cards rather, poping one of these out of the grave is the next best thing to ancestral recall.

Cabal Therapy: First of all there is alot of pain in this deck so thought seize would be pushing it. And with the lack of removal having discard to get rid of creatures is important. I wish there was a way to put more discard in so I wouldn't have to guess. But at the same time I know what people are playing alot of times at tournaments. The fact that it has flashback puts it in the forefront of discard for this deck. Its an out to kill confident if he is hurting you and can put imp in the grave if your opponent has no hand.

Possible problems:

life lose (not that concerned when it allows me to control the game)

not enough pitch to force of will (I usually like more blue sources but it still works with 21, thats one reason why im running 3 togs in here)

no creature removal besides stinkweed imp.

20 land: with less cantrips then thresh and 3 cc spells i don't mind going to 20 at all. I lose alot of games because of mana skrew in opening hands.

no recursion: this is where my list parts from alot of the others on the board. I would rather sideboard Genesis and have a faster more aggressive early game. Of course Im not running intuition to fetch the pieces, which I think its one of the best draws, I'm just using a dredge/ draw engine with Deep Analysis instead.

First of all, this doesn't really look like TarmoTog anymore, as Intuition + Wonder are the core of this deck, and your deck seems to lack the mid- and lategame power that Intuition provides, seeing as you have no real recursion in there (a recurring Imp is not THAT powerful). It also much more reliant on Psychatog (Dredge is only good with it), which can be dangerous with all the removal running around. What I like about it is the CBalance engine, although I'm not sure if it really is better than the Intuition engine (seeing as you have to drop CBalance early, slowing your beatdown, whereas Intuition can be cast after the beaters are already on the board).

I really want to play Confidant myself in a deck like this, but think it shouldn't be done. Also, in your deck you have some pretty expensive cards (4 Force, 3 Analysis, 3 Psychatog, 2 Imp, 1 Troll), and since Analysis costs three life as well, it looks a bit suicidal. For the same reason (casting costs), Counterbalance looks a bit akward with the Dredgers and Analysis.

Cabal Therapy seems to suffer from a lack of creatures that you want to sac to it: discard is best in the early turns, and I can't really imagine a creature you would want to sac in these turns besides Imp.

All in all, I would be very worried about the Aggro matchup, especially Goblins, as well as Aggro-Control (first turn Lackey on the play can only be answered by Force, for example). As you said, having no real removal maindeck is a hassle. If I could change the deck, I'd probably go for a more streamlined GAT (Gro-A-Tog) build with more/better disruption to protect Tog (Duress/Thoughtseize instead of Therapy) and either cut the Confidants or the Analysis for some removal (probably Deed or Demise). I would also cut the Dredging as it has no use without Atog. Finally, the deck relying heavily on Atog, maybe two or three Sylvan Safekeepers (they can protect second turn Confidant, and get some extra cards in the graveyard for a lethal Psychatog) would be nice...

I saw (in the CANGD section I think) a version of this deck that was more black based and board control-ish (and also ran more discard), and totally ditched the cantrip package (and forcefully FoW - while still keeping the intuition engine though). I personally liked it a lot and felt more comfortable running it on MWS. it could be a valid alternative?

Thanks for the advice! I was hoping the threat density would be enough to negate my opponents removal but Sylvan Safekeepers does seem solid here.

Im gonna go -1 Deep Analysis -3 Cabal Therapy +2 Thoughtseize +2 sylvan safekeeper and test it.

If by board control-ish you mean Pernicious Deed, I have to say with all the permanents it seems a good answer to my deck and very anti-synergetic, so that would have to be another deck entirely.

A few things I forgot to mention.

Imp also kills nimble mongoose which is important.

Wild Mongrel dodges Shriekmaw which I see entering some lists.

dredging with the top lets you see 3 new cards every turn you dredge.

counterbalance works against stax cards with this deck becuase of the higher cc spells, most of the curve goes 1-3. It also pumps goyfs when dredged.

Golgari Grave-Troll is used as the finisher. I didn't want to take up alot of slots for recursion when I can just dredge this guy back up and finish my opponent.

You need to understand your deck first. It only needs one threat to go the distance. Something like Pernicious Deed or Engineered Explosives is exactly what you want.

Sylvan Safekeeper is like.... garbage. Seriously, don't play it. Play removal or something, or anything actually that doesn't say Sylvan Safekeeper.

Finally, Thoughtseize is way better here than Cabal Therapy is. It's very proactive, and you don't want to be saccing creatures that you want to be going the distance with.

Yes you guys are right that list is rubbish. Loam is a better engine for this deck. But what I am trying to do is create a more aggro and less controlling version. I barely got to test this list. I think the counterbalance can work for the aggro version though. And another thing I really like is the Wild Mongrel. Even though they are two to cast they are just solid beaters. And can get hits in before threshold and earlier then nimble mongoose.

But yes I really do need recursion to beat other decks in the late game. I don't think I realized the draw and filtering power of loam + Cephalid Coliseum.

The list had to much pain in it as well.

So this is the new list I am using:


4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Mongrel
2 dark confidant
3 Psychatog
1 Shriekmaw
1 Viridian Zealot
1 genisis

1 life from the loam

4 top
3 counterbalance

4 FOW
4 daze / spell snare
4 intuition

4 duress

20 land

1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Volrath's stronghold
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 swamp
1 island
1 forest
11 sac lands

Oh ya and by the way someone came up with a pretty snazzy name I think on MTG:
"Modern Dentistry"
It seems appropriate seeing as tog was referred to as dr. teeth and this is a modern update of an older deck. Also whats more terrifying then a trip to the dentist?

Do you think stifle could go in place of daze or spell snare? wasteland hurts this deck, tormod's crypt hurts it late game and combo is a tough match up. That said pithing needle might not be a bad sideboard option because people always side in crypt VS this deck.

As to the list...

Since you want to play beatdown, there's no reason not to include Wonder, which can finish off opponents much faster than Genesis, and is nice with the Atog. Spell Snare is better than Daze here since you want to actually get up to four or five mana fast for Loam abuse, even if you weren't running Genesis. Duress is a solid spell, but I'd prefer spot removal instead if you're not really playing in a combo-heavy meta...I find that in current Legacy, there aren't that many spells you HAVE to get rid of (especially when you can recur you threats), but there are some nasty creatures which can kill you fast (Countryside Crusher, Terravore, first turn Lackey).

Regarding CBalance + Top, I really would like it to work here, but my problem with it is that it needs to be played early, when you want to play beatdown creatures instead, and not late like Intuition. But your casting costs look pretty good for abusing it...

I haven't been around in a while but all of the newer lists I keep seeing posted seem too unfocused. Like... why run Volrath's Stronghold when you have Genesis? You don't need a ton of toolbox options... focus on the better card(s) and leave the other ones out. I understand how something like Extirpate would cause someone to want to run extra cards that do the same thing but... this deck doesn't need the card advantage engines to win. What's the whole deal with Gigapede? Why do you need another discard outlet when your first Intuition should almost always include Loam and Coliseum? The deck doesn't need a self recurring beater when it has Genesis... and if you lose your Genesis, you still have better (read: more efficient) beaters to finish the job.

Ah Shriekmaw, this is a very amazing card. As a removal option, it makes the Dredge mechanic in this deck so much more dangerous. Now, you can Dredge into a recurrable removal source if you have Genesis in the yard. Not only that, but additional Shriekmaw's aren't going to be dead since they can be cast as creatures... and what's even better is that they have built in evasion for when you don't have Wonder in the yard or for when the opponent has flyers of their own. Shriekmaw answers just about everything you'd need it to answer, considering Deed answers black creatures at the lower cc range (Shade, Confidant, etc). I really don't like Smother, especially since it has the same problems against larger cc guys that Deed has. The only noticeable problems with Shriekmaw is Tombstalker and Sutured Ghoul (and possibly Spectral Lynx). Fortunately, I don't think either of those make up a significant portion of the metagame and sufficient Sideboard options can be ran to handle them.

I also don't understand some other concepts. First of all, why does this deck necessarily want to play into the late game? It's tempo-oriented like Threshold just as much as it is control-oriented like Landstill. Secondly, why was Psychatog considered a worse option than Mongrel? Not only does his being blue and black make him easier to cast through cards like Blood Moon, he ups the blue spell count for Force of Will... and neither of those two things I just said are as important as him being a finisher. When the games do drag out and you finally drop a Tog, you're gonna win next turn unless your opponent has an answer to him (like StP). Tog in itself is a major reason why this deck is so strong... the deck can go from merely stabalizing with Deed or Goyf sitting back as a blocker and then out of nowhere drop a Tog and win the following turn. Maybe I play the deck differently but I know that my matchups against Goblins, for example, is greatly improved when I stabilize on defense and then drop a Tog and swing once for lethal.

DAT Thresh is, in my opinion, the strongest deck in the format for a ton of reasons. Here's my current maindeck list:

U/G/b DAT Thresh

Lands (19)
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland

Creatures (15)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Psychatog
1 Wonder
1 Genesis
3 Shriekmaw

Spells (26)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed

I like how this list is much less cluttered than other lists I've seen. It doesn't try to add multiple different options that do the same thing... instead it focuses on the best cards that do the job. For example, no Lonely Sandbars, no Academy Ruins, no Volrath's Stronghold, no Gigapede, so on and so forth. The extra slots available because of this allows me to run more disruption/protection in Daze and Cabal Therapy.

I've seen several people dismiss Daze because this deck is being considered a control deck. This deck is tempo-oriented just as much as it is control-oriented, except the control portion isn't as mana intensive as your standard control deck. Aside from the 1GU + land drop for the turn via Loam + Coliseum CA, this deck has a fairly low curve for a control deck. 3 mana sources casts every spell in the deck with 6 mana sources in total being all you really need (more doesn't hurt but by no means is this deck as mana intensive as a deck like Landstill is). Daze improves your early game stabilaztion against everything... from Goblins, to combo, to Dragon Stompy... it helps. The ability to tempo the opponent early while you ride a Mongoose or Goyf is strong and just as viable here as it is in standard Threshold.

I know for a fact that Cabal Therapy is going to standout to alot of people as an eyesore on paper. This deck Dredges frequently, blows up its own creatures from time to time with Deed, and has recurrability. It's really not that big of a deal to sac a guy to Therapy. Therapy gives the deck added control options vs combo and is still useful vs aggro like Goblins. I think my favorite part about Cabal Therapy, though, is being able to sac a Mongoose or Goyf the turn after I drop my Tog to secure the win. Not only that but the ability to see the opponent's hand in general is extremely strong when you're playing cards like Force of Will and Pernicious Deed. I prefer Cabal Therapy over Duress or Thoughtseize in this deck simply because this deck supports Cabal Therapy so well.

On a final note as far as the Maindeck goes, I just want to say that I think the 3 green fetchlands + 1 basic Forest is extremely important with Dragon Stompy and other nonbasic hating decks running about. It may not seem like it's going to help much... but with 8 cantrips and especially with Intuition (grabbing Loam and the Forest if one of the green fetches isn't in the graveyard), it does help.

Sideboard options are wide open. This deck utilizes engines for both creature recursion and land recursion, therefore making toolbox options viable. The deck also has access to very powerful cards like Thoughtseize, Stifle, Krosan Grip, and much more. I'm not as familiar with the metagame anymore as I used to be since I hardly ever play nowadays and I don't patrol the forums as much... so I'm not going to list a sideboard at this time. However, this is a skeleton for what I might include:

Sideboard (?)
1 Gigapede/Volrath's Stronghold
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Trygon Predator
1 Darkblast/Stinkweed Imp/Maze of Ith
1 Pernicious Deed
X Engineered Explosives
X Krosan Grip
X Pithing Needle
X Extirpate
X Stifle
X Thoughtseize/Duress
X Berserk

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My current sideboard, which is just a general shell for the moment:

Sideboard (15)
3 Stifle
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Stinkweed Imp
1 Gigapede

More info on page 7 of this thread: http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showt...?t=6230&page=7

While I agree that some of the lists are cluttered with "cool stuff", I think your list is a bit too dependent on the graveyard recursion as well (stuff that is not so good without recursion includes Therapy, Shriekmaw, Deed), thus weakening the "only beatdown" option. But as I detailed in a previous post, there seem to be two paths to building this deck, mine (not being necessarily better) being to minimize the number of cards that depend on the recursion provided by Intuition/Genesis/Loam and increase the beatdown component.

As for Gigapede, I have found that with Legacy being very tempo-based, there are situations when you don't want to pay 1GU plus a land drop for coliseum to get that Wonder into the yard, but rather do it for free with Gigapede. It's true that both Genesis and Gigapede is too much, I just prefer 'Pede for tempo reasons...

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Originally Posted by Hanni

What's the whole deal with Gigapede? Why do you need another discard outlet when your first Intuition should almost always include Loam and Coliseum? The deck doesn't need a self recurring beater when it has Genesis... and if you lose your Genesis, you still have better (read: more efficient) beaters to finish the job.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

why does this deck necessarily want to play into the late game? It's tempo-oriented like Threshold just as much as it is control-oriented like Landstill.

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I felt the same way at first, until I played the deck for a while and realized how crucial he is. This deck, more so than almost any I've ever played, is alays hurting for mana. Being forced to use loam+coliseum to discard your incarnations is not always ideal. Besides that, gigapede is an amazing win condition. He's incredibly hard to remove, which makes him an ideal finisher (especially if wonder is in the grave).

As a side note, I usually intuition for wonder/genesis/gigapede first (before the loam package) because I usually have a creature or two in play by turn three. This forces my opponent to answer those creatures, whereas loaming can set you up for a long game, but as you said yourself (quoted above) this shouldn't be your top priority.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I know for a fact that Cabal Therapy is going to standout to alot of people as an eyesore on paper.

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I holeheartedly agree with you on the power of therapy in this style of deck. However, it's far more powerful when combined with birds of paradise, which I think improve this deck a lot (because of turn 2 intuitions instead of turn 3).

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I felt the same way at first, until I played the deck for a while and realized how crucial he is. This deck, more so than almost any I've ever played, is alays hurting for mana. Being forced to use loam+coliseum to discard your incarnations is not always ideal. Besides that, gigapede is an amazing win condition. He's incredibly hard to remove, which makes him an ideal finisher (especially if wonder is in the grave).

As a side note, I usually intuition for wonder/genesis/gigapede first (before the loam package) because I usually have a creature or two in play by turn three. This forces my opponent to answer those creatures, whereas loaming can set you up for a long game, but as you said yourself (quoted above) this shouldn't be your top priority.

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See, usually this is what happens when I have Intuition and I hit 3 lands:

At opponent's EoT, Intuition for Loam, Coliseum, Genesis. Let's suppose they give me Genesis.

My turn, Dredge 3 for Loam. Cast Loam grabbing Coliseum and 2 other lands.

At this point it depends on what else is in my hand. If I don't plan on using the ability of Genesis next turn, the need to use Coliseum is diminished for this turn. Usually though, I'll play Coliseum, use Coliseum, and build up a strong hand that usually has at least 1 land drop for next turn.

The following turn, if I did the Coliseum play last turn, usually doesn't involve me Loam'ing. Oftentimes I Genesis; Mongoose is perfect here. Then I make my land drop... if I have Mongoose, I drop him. Next turn, if I don't have any more land drops in hand, I'll Dredge for Loam again, grabbing Coliseum and 2 other lands. If I want to make more land drops, I'll wait till next turn or the turn after to play Coliseum. This deck only needs so many mana sources though...

Now, I have the Loam + Coliseum engine ready for use to generate raw CA + CQ, which also happens to put 6 cards in the graveyard a turn for quicker Tog kills.

The other thing is that I'm not as concerned with Wonder as so many other people are. With Force, Daze, Therapy, Shriekmaw, and Deed... you don't always need flying to get through creature combat. Thresh rarely utilizes flying... and if they do use Mystic Enforcer, it's as a late game finisher. Plus, the deck runs 4 Intuitions... there are many games where you do draw multiples.

I just don't see Gigapede as the best option. 3GG for a 6/1 is pretty poor, untargetability or not. If we need untargetability, we already have Mongoose. A 3/3 isn't as fast of a clock as a 6/1 but I don't see how that matters when one costs G and the other costs 3GG. Gigapede, aside from discarding Wonder and Genesis, is card disadvantage. Genesis and Coliseum (Coliseum with Loam anyway) both provide card advantage.

That is how I see it, though. If Gigapede is working for you, continue to run him. However, I doubt that I will be putting Gigapede into the maindeck of any of my DAT builds.

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I holeheartedly agree with you on the power of therapy in this style of deck. However, it's far more powerful when combined with birds of paradise, which I think improve this deck a lot (because of turn 2 intuitions instead of turn 3).

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As far as Cabal Therapy goes... the point isn't to burn away Birds, the point is to give the deck against early game resilience vs fast combo where it wouldn't otherwise have it. The other point is the ability to Therapy before RFG'ing cards to Tog... if you gte rid of that StP, or Therapy to find they have no answer, you can swing ftw. The beauty of Therapy over the other discard options here is that it can be sitting in your graveyard from prior use or Dredging, which will give you more frequent access to it than other discard options.

The other great thing about Therapy is that it gives you extra Intuition targets once all the toolbox stuff you need has already been grabbed: consider you don't need Wasteland. Your first Intuition grabbed Loam, Coliseum, and Genesis. Shriekmaw has already been Dredged into the graveyard before hitting Intuition number two. Now when you Intuition, you grab Wonder. Now you can grab Tog if he isn't already in your graveyard. But what about that final spot? Cabal Therapy is a great filler card for Intuition fodder.

Just my opinion on Cabal Therapy vs other discard options. This deck DOES need some maindeck discard though. If you'd prefer Duress or Thoughtseize over Cabal Therapy, cool. This deck supports Cabal Therapy way too well to not run it instead, though.

I do understand what you mean about Birds itself. I don't think Bird's is needed here for the same reasons why I wouldn't run Mox Diamond (if I had enough lands to do so) or Chrome Mox. Turn 2 Intuitions are very nice but this deck doesn't need to race. Unless you have a turn 2 Intuition, accel is going to be very subpar after that. I usually like to cantrip, lay down a guy, etc in the first few turns anyway. There are only 60 card slots available and so many powerful options that this deck has at its disposal. You really have to choose the strongest of the available options and leave the other slightly less strong options out. This goes back to my reasoning on Gigapede as well... but again this is all my personal opinion.

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I think your list is a bit too dependent on the graveyard recursion as well (stuff that is not so good without recursion includes Therapy, Shriekmaw, Deed),

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Yes, this deck is graveyard dependant. So is Threshold. Any version of this deck, aside from the versions with Wild Mongrel, are going to have the same problem. That's what Force, Daze, and Cabal Therapy are supposed to help with. I'm not sure how Therapy, Shriekmaw, and Deed push this deck into any heavier of a graveyard reliance, though.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Just my opinion on Cabal Therapy vs other discard options. This deck DOES need some maindeck discard though. If you'd prefer Duress or Thoughtseize over Cabal Therapy, cool. This deck supports Cabal Therapy way too well to not run it instead, though.

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Other than Intuition for 3 Therapy, which is quite strong, the card on its own seems worse than Thoughtseize. You dont have anything creature wise that stands out as Cabal Therapy fodder, I guess Mongeese (or Wonder/Genesis), but most of your creatures once on the board are pretty good threats I wouldn't want to be saccing for flashback.

I would think maybe 2 Thoughtseize 1 Therapy so you can still throw it into Intuition packages since it functions out of the yard, but as a one-of it won't come up as often naturally.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I'll Dredge for Loam again, grabbing Intuition, Coliseum, and 2 lands.

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How exactly do you dredge Loam for an Intuition??? lol.

Anyway, Gigapede seems like a perfect fit for this deck. You have plenty of 1-of's that you want in the yard, and Gigapede guarantees and Intuition stack that gets 2 of them there.

It also is an awesome beater. Sure, Mongoose costs one, but what does Mongoose do against Tarmogoyf? Gigapede usually ends games in 3 swings if you have Wonder in the yard, which you will if you Intuitioned for Gigapede. It gets around a lot of the removal in the format that your other threats die to, including Deed. If they tap out to kill your Gigapede, that's awesome, cuz you play it again.

I would personally play it as a 1-of to improve consistency with Intuition. Without a 'Tog in play you don't have a reliable discard outlet, unless you Therapy yourself, which usually isn't the best play. I would play it over 1 Goose, as that would leave you with 11 turn 1 plays for the deck, excluding Daze and FoW.

As for Shriekmaw and Therapy making the deck more graveyard-based, it's because you can recur Shriekmaw, and Therapy is obvious, Deed on the other hand... I guess maybe because you will kill your own threats and have to Genesis them back? I dunno about that one...

Anyway, I think I might start tinkering with these lists a bit. It does seem like a good choice for the current meta.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Yes, this deck is graveyard dependant. So is Threshold. Any version of this deck, aside from the versions with Wild Mongrel, are going to have the same problem. That's what Force, Daze, and Cabal Therapy are supposed to help with. I'm not sure how Therapy, Shriekmaw, and Deed push this deck into any heavier of a graveyard reliance, though.

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I dare say your version is more dependant then Threshold as, say, a Crypt or Leyline is going to cause you a lot more problems. I listed the following cards as examples because they can ONLY function well if you got Genesis or Loam/Coliseum recursion going (Shriekmaw is worse than Demise or Smother otherwise, Deed wiping your own creatures is not exciting if they can't be recurred) or if you dredge them into the yard (like stated above, Therapy from your hand is usually better as Thoughtseize). So while they can be played on their own, they are put into the deck primarily because of their synergy with the recursion, which causes problems if you don't get the recursion.

Once again, I don't mean to bash your version, just to say that in my opinion, it pushes the deck down a more combo-controllish path.

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How exactly do you dredge Loam for an Intuition??? lol.

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That's a typo, Intuition shouldn't have been in the sentence. I'll fix that.

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Anyway, Gigapede seems like a perfect fit for this deck. You have plenty of 1-of's that you want in the yard, and Gigapede guarantees and Intuition stack that gets 2 of them there.

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There are only 2 1-of's in the deck that you'd rather have in the yard than in hand. Those being Wonder and Genesis. The first Intuition should almost always, like 95% of the time, be grabbing Loam, Coliseum, and Genesis. The remaining 5% or so of the time should be Loam, Coliseum, and Wasteland as the first Intuition targets. If you have Wonder or Genesis in hand, you can restack them back into the deck via Brainstorm or Ponder and then Dredge, or simply toss them back in with Brainstorm or Ponder and then Intuition for them later. Plus there are still 2 Psychatogs to discard them to if you need to. Very rarely is any of this an issue.

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It also is an awesome beater. Sure, Mongoose costs one, but what does Mongoose do against Tarmogoyf? Gigapede usually ends games in 3 swings if you have Wonder in the yard, which you will if you Intuitioned for Gigapede. It gets around a lot of the removal in the format that your other threats die to, including Deed. If they tap out to kill your Gigapede, that's awesome, cuz you play it again.

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Gigapede forces you to discard a card to recur a 6/1 that costs 3GG to play. Why does Mongoose need to do anything to Tarmogoyf when this deck has sufficient answers to Tarmogoyf already? The current aggro in the deck can end the game quickly once Wonder is in the yard and none of them cost 5 mana to do so. Maybe if you are looking at it from the perspective of Genesis recurring... but the reason that you're Tarmogoyf costs 5 mana from Genesis recurring is because its granting you card advantage. I never said Gigapede was a bad card, nor wasn't a good card in the deck. I'm simply saying that it isn't needed. If I need untargetability for whatever reason, I have Mongoose for that. If I need a large body, I have Tarmogoyf for that. Sure, Gigapede can end the game in 3 swings when Wonder is in the yard... Tog can end the game in 1 though.

However, I do see 2 positives for Gigapede.

1) At 5cc, he's often going to be out of Deed range.
2) Postboard, against decks that bring in grave hate, he can be a second recur source that you can Intuition for if Genesis gets RFG'd.

It's not a bad idea to run 1 Gigapede in the sideboard vs control decks that bring in graveyard hate for you.
But I really don't see why I'm worried about him being out of Deed range. As a 1-of, you need to Intuition for him to find him (more often than not). I've already explained what the Intuition piles for this deck should look like:

Intuition #1 - Loam, Coliseum, Genesis/Wasteland

You'll want to grab Wasteland against any deck where a Wasteland lock will autowin you the matchup. Otherwise, you want to grab Genesis.

Now, the next pile depends on position... sometimes you are going to want to grab a certain creature if you don't already have one in hand, play, or graveyard. Shriekmaw is the obvious one you want to have around so you have recurrable removal if you need it. If we already have a Shriekmaw in a zone other than the Library or RFG, this is usually what you want your next Intuition pile to look like:

Intuition #2 - Wonder, Psychatog, Cabal Therapy

At this point the game should be pretty much over. Hopefully you have at least 1 creature in play to sac to Cabal Therapy to clear the way for Tog. Cast Tog, discard Wonder to Tog, and swing ftw.

Nowhere in either of those 2 piles would it be more efficient to grab Gigapede, unless the opponent disabled Genesis. If you see lots of yard hate maindeck, Gigapede would probably be a good option... but then again, why not just play a different deck if your meta is full of maindeck yard hate?

Again, this is my opinion. Everyone else seems to be pro Gigapede and I'm not trying to convince anyone to do things my way. I'm simply vocalizing my opinion. I think Gigapede is a good card maindeck but I don't think Gigapede is needed maindeck. The same way that I think Volrath's Stronghold is a good card maindeck but is not needed maindeck.

As a long time DAT player, I know how difficult the deck can be to pilot when you have so many options available to you and you're not sure which one to choose. When you really look at it though, there doesn't need to be too many options.
[I'm speaking here from my experience with earlier builds that had included many toolbox options; for example: 2 Lonely Sandbar and 1 Cephalid Coliseum, 1 Stinkweed Imp and 1 Maze of Ith, etc and etc.]
By removing redundant toolbox options, the deck can focus on exactly what it wants to do. Not only that, it makes sure the deck does it in the most efficient manner. The way I play the deck, fitting Gigapede into an Intuition pile just isn't as effecient as the other Intuition piles I normally use.

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I would personally play it as a 1-of to improve consistency with Intuition. Without a 'Tog in play you don't have a reliable discard outlet

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Loam + Coliseum is the discard outlet... and if the deck doesn't have Threshold after you Dredge for the first time, it will after you Dredge the second time.

Personally, I wouldn't even run Loam in the deck if I wasn't utilizing Coliseum. Then again, I wouldn't run Psychatog either.

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Shriekmaw is worse than Demise or Smother otherwise

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We'll have to agree to disagree then. Even without recursion, Demise is going to be worse against graveyard hate. Smother doesn't have issues with graveyard hate but it still has the same pitfalls as Deed has (problems with higher cc stuff). Even without recursion, Shriekmaw is still a great card... it's like Flametongue Kavu but way better (in my opinion).

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Deed wiping your own creatures is not exciting if they can't be recurred

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Depends on what you are playing against, I suppose. If I'm playing against Goblins or Affinity or something similar and they have a ton of stuff out, it actually is exciting for me to Deed and then proceed to drop a Tarmogoyf or something. I play Deed in my B/g/w Deadguy Rock deck without any recursion and it actually does work well. It's not gonna work as well in this deck without recursion, but still.

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So while they can be played on their own, they are put into the deck primarily because of their synergy with the recursion, which causes problems if you don't get the recursion.

Once again, I don't mean to bash your version, just to say that in my opinion, it pushes the deck down a more combo-controllish path.

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This deck is built utilizing the graveyard. If the reason I shouldn't play cards like Cabal Therapy are because of an increased graveyard dependance... why should I even play the deck in the first place?

I find myself using the Loam + Coliseum engine often, which happens to put alot of cards in the graveyard. Cards like Force of Will don't matter to me after they get tossed in the bin. This is where Cabal Therapy shines to me, since I still have disruption available to me even if it gets Dredged away. I already said that running Thoughtseize or Duress instead is something others can do if they want. Cabal Therapy has far more synergy with this deck, however, and is why I prefer it over the other options.

As far as the way my version is built... the 4/4/2 combination of Mongoose, Goyf, and Tog is the same configuration that most Threshold lists run, with Mystic Enforcer instead of Psychatog. Both Enforcer and Tog are intended to be finishers. In here, though, Tog can end the game in 1 swing where Enforcer usually takes a few. I'm guessing that you consider my version more comboish because of the Tog finishes. I look at it the same way... and that semi-combo element improves fast aggro strategy matchups like Goblins.

The deck does utilize more control, you're right... if I wanted to play a more aggro version, I'd rather play Threshold or Survival. A heavy aggro-oriented version of this deck has much less synergy with cards like Deed and a weaker combo matchup due to less disruption. It is my personal opinion that the aggro versions of this deck improves matchups that don't need improved that much while weakening matchups that need to be improved more.

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At any rate, criticism is always a good thing. Just because I refute the criticism doesn't mean that the criticism doesn't strengthen the topic.

Alot of my deckbuilding is biased based on the way I play the deck. It is also biased based on what matchups I find to be easier and/or harder based on the way I play the deck.

So basically, all the long verboseness of my posts are all personal playstyle biases and opinions. If the decklist doesn't work for you as well as other lists do, then run the other list(s). From all the lists I've seen in this thread since the last time I posted, I like mine the best. It cuts out alot of redundancy and toolbox options and focuses on what I've found to be the most effecient means. This doesn't mean my decklist is the best. The only reason I posted the decklist and explained it thoroughly was to offer it to anyone who actually still plays this game competitively (since I don't). I think it is quite capable of making it to the DTB Forum if people were to start piloting it.

Holy posts all of a sudden! I'll make more substantial responses when I have a little more time, but for now, I want to say that I've seen you mention Stronghold twice now, Hanni, but I cut it from the deck weeks ago, so I'm not entirely sure to which version of the deck you're referring. I agree that it's an inferior card choice, and I'd really prefer either Wasteland or a basic land (I opted for a basic land, and Wasteland in the sideboard, because of VE).

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I want to say that I've seen you mention Stronghold twice now,

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I was looking at decklists from page 2 to whatever page we're on now. It wasn't that I wanted to specifically address that particular card as much as I wanted to address redundancy in toolbox options.

DTB Forum in mtg is:

MUC
Landstill
Stax
Rock
Faerie Stompy
Aggro Loam
UGr Threshold
Vial Goblins
Deadguy
UGw Threshold
UGb Threshold
RGb Survival

This metagame looks prime for DAT Thresh... why isn't it top 8'ing?

So after some testing I have found that I do indeed want Pernicious Deed more then counterbalance. I come into more aggro then combo and decks like affinity that can belch up a bunch of ankle bitters were I NEED to sweep the board or I'm dead. So out goes confident top and counterbalance in my build + 4 deeds. Even powder keg could be good.

Hanni I think you convinced me of wasteland over Volrath's Stronghold. That makes sense to diversify the answers in the deck When your already running Genesis. But by the same token your attack strategy should be diversified as well. You have to think what happens after my opponent blows up my grave because there is so much grave hate in sideboards now days.

I DO like Wild Mongrel in this deck though. He is just a solid threat and another discard outlet.

One of the dilemmas of the deck is that it is fairly mana hungry and it wants to play free counters because it plays so many sorcery speed spells. Daze sets us back but it may be worth it. The only other option really is disrupting shoal and there isnt enough different cc blue cards in the deck to warrant that.

Do you guys think Viridian Zealot is worth it? I use him only because he is a recurring answer to artifacts and enchantments and it almost always comes up. He kills himself and is the closest thing to an evoke that naturalizes.

On Cabal Therapy vs. duress/thought seize. Cabal therapy is insane for one mana. It can discard multiple cards as well. In a tournament it could be very good especially if you know what people are playing. Cards were you name things like pithing needle and cabal therapy can be almost like cheating when you know what to name before hand. But you can miss easier with cabal therapy. In a big tournament I like duress more. The format is so diverse Im not sure what to expect so in that situation I much rather have duress.