[DTB] U/G/x Thresh - a.k.a. Not Quite Gro, SuperGro

New Top8 from Germany:
GPT Lile in Düsseldorf

T8:
1. NQG/r (Marcel Schweitzer) (3-2 / 3-0)
2. NQG/w (Tim Sponagel) [kimberley?] ( 3-1-1 / 2-1 )
3. NQG/r (Tobias Henke) (3-2 / 1-1)
4. NQG/r (Tobias Fülhase (3-2 / 1-1)
5. NQG/r (Uwe Felten) (4-0-1 / 0-1)
6. NQG/w (Christian Wilczek) [Windux] (3-0-2 / 0-1)
7. Goblins (Johannes Mitsion) (3-0-2 / 0-1)
8. U/W Control (Hauke Harms) ( 3-2 / 0-1)

I reported the Decklsits at morphing.de and they will be on soon.
6 of 7 NQG made it into the Top8. 2 of them are NQG/w.

I Drawed Round 4 and 5 because i was 3-0 and self with 3-1-1 I had made Top8. In the Quarters I only played for Fun, because I allready had Byes.

My changes:
-3 SoH,-1 Shoal +4 AKs

I run good with that. One of the Reason are clearly they, that I have still 8 Canttrips and most of the Decks also played AKs.

Changes to test for Lile:
-1 Needles | In PreBoard Mirrors it really Sucks. If you got them, you name Fetch's to Screw your opponent or name Fledling Dragon to get a 2:1 Trade with a Burn for Enforcer.
You make your Preboard against Goblins worse, but it's still good enough. I'm really hope, all Play Goblins/w without Ports ;)

-1/2 Mages | Mirror again. You name in W-Mirrors the Beater, you got in Play or can't Counter the next 2-3 Rounds. And they are not that much sueful against Goblins or specific Combos.

+3 Mongoose | More "Big" Beaters. Its also better against Goblins and Hardcontrol.

- Shoals | Only good in the Lategame as an Hardcast Force, which costs more Mana.

SB:
1 Needle (Goblins, Mirrors, where your opponent plays Crypt)
3 P. Furnace | Not so fast like Crypt against Mirror, but it's also a Canttrip and on Long-Time it's better
2 Armaggeddon
1 Meddling Mage | For 3/4 Mages if you need them
2 BEB
1 Hydroblast
3 Tivadar's Crusade
2 Threeshold Supporter*

*We are testing some Cards for the GP Lile to make the Mirror much easier and to get handled against "Anti NQG Decks".
Results will follow soon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Windux

T8:
1. NQG/r (Marcel Schweitzer) (3-2 / 3-0)
2. NQG/w (Tim Sponagel) [kimberley?] ( 3-1-1 / 2-1 )
3. NQG/r (Tobias Henke) (3-2 / 1-1)
4. NQG/r (Tobias Fülhase (3-2 / 1-1)
5. NQG/r (Uwe Felten) (4-0-1 / 0-1)
6. NQG/w (Christian Wilczek) [Windux] (3-0-2 / 0-1)
7. Goblins (Johannes Mitsion) (3-0-2 / 0-1)
8. U/W Control (Hauke Harms) ( 3-2 / 0-1)

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Does anyone else agree that Threshold is a terrible deck and is strictly inferior to Goblins. :)

These are great results and it is great to see that this deck is truly competitive.

It is also quite clear that despite less placings in the US, the red splash is just as good as the white.

That top 8 is unbelievable.

7 NQG lists in the GP. 6 Top 8.

That's unheard of. Does this indicate that NQG is Tier 1?

Wow that's just crazy. I think NQG was considered Tier 1 after GP Philly, but this just reinforces it.

I await the lists, though I can't imagine they'd be much different than the ones we already have.

And now, i proudly present:
The Top8!

1. Platz
Marcel Schweitzer
Deckname: #w00t.Random

Mainboard (60):

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
3 Island

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
2 Fledgling Dragon

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mental Note
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Fire / Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell

Sideboard (15)
2 Winter Orb
4 Pyroclasm
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Stifle
2 Tormod's Crypt

2. Platz
Tim Sponagel

Mainboard (60):

4 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island

4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Werebear
3 Mystic Enforcer

4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Disrupting Shoal
2 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Portent
3 Predict
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Meddling Mage

Sideboard (15)
4 Hydroblast
1 Tivadar's Crusade
1 Meddling Mage
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
2 Stifle
3 Armageddon

3. Platz
Tobias Henke

Mainboard (60):

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear

2 Pyroclasm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mental Note
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Fire / Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell

Sideboard (15)
3 Naturalize
2 Stifle
2 Pyroclasm
2 Pithing Needle
3 Energy Flux
3 Tormod's Crypt

4. Platz
Tobias Fülhase

Mainboard (60):

3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
1 Island
2 Wooded Foothills

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
2 Fledgling Dragon

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mental Note
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Fire / Ice
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspel
3 Stifle

Sideboard (15)
4 Pyroclasm
2 Null Rod
3 Naturalize
2 Winter Orb
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Tormod's Crypt

5. Platz
Uwe Felten
Deckname: The Rock

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 City of Brass
4 Volcanic sland
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Islad

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
2 Fledgling Dragon

4 Daze
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Fire / Ice
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mental Note
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions

Sideboard (15)
4 Pyroclasm
4 Naturalize
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Winter Orb

6. Platz
Christian Wilczek
Deckname: #w00t.'s Bye-Hilfe

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

4 Meddling Mage
4 Werebear
3 Mystic Enforcer

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Predict
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pithing Needle

Sideboard (15)
1 Stifle
3 Armageddon
2 Phyrexian Furnace
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
3 Nimble Mongoose
2 Engineered Explosives

7. Platz
Johannes Mitsios

4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Sparksmith

4 Aether Vial

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
6 Moutain

Sideboard (15)
1 Pithing Needle
2 Price of Progress
3 Sulferic Vortex
4 Patron of the Akki
4 Pyrokinesis
1 Siege-Gang Commander

8. Platz
Hauke Harms

Maindeck (60)

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Mana Leak
2 Disrupting Shoal
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulatd Knowledge
2 Intuition
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Stifle
4 Exalted Angel
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Decree of Justice
1 Eternal Dragon
2 Veldalken Shackles

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
9 Island
3 Plains

Sideboard (15)

4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Wrath of God
3 Arcane Laboratory
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Tormod's Crypt


You know the reason, why im "only" Place 6 ;)

What I find interesting is Tobias Henke's NQG/r with no Fledgeling Dragons. His kill is only Werebear and Nimble Mongoose which seems kind of low, but I guess it worked out for him well enough. Also, Marcel Schweitzer's list has 19 lands which is relatively high compared to all the others(17-18).

BTW nice job on your great finish.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by troopatroop

That top 8 is unbelievable.

7 NQG lists in the GP. 6 Top 8.

That's unheard of. Does this indicate that NQG is Tier 1?

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Possibly better than goblins.

I think we should do a breakdown of all the top 8ing decks, remove their offcolor components and see what worked best overall towards the basic archetype to create an optimal list.

Will this lead to Werebear's banning? :p The fact of the matter is the deck is solid as a whole, it's not built around 1 or 2 cards like most decks are. Most decks are weakened by needing certain cards, Landstill (Wrath), Solidarity ( hightide, reset), Wombat (humility), RGSA ( I don't know if this counts but survival), Dredge-a-tog (tog). This deck needs no certain card to deal with or answer anything, Gro has no card to rely on which may be a problem or a positive thing.

White NQG goes 50/50 with Goblins. Red NQG does better. Of course this deck is better than goblins!

In my experience, one of the defining cards of the mirror is Mental Note. Whoever plays it will get threshold faster than the opponent, and will control the game by putting the person who didn't run it on the ropes, and capitalizing on that advantage afterwards. Therefore, all NQG decks should start running Mental Note so none of them fall behind.

Also, red NQG should run more than the 4 Lightning Bolts used as replacement for Swords to Plowshares. The reason is that, versus white NQG, Meddling Mage has the potential to be the biggest problem card. If you only run the Bolts, and the first Meddling Mage names Bolt, then you're in trouble. However, if you run Fire/Ice or such, (I'd choose Fire/Ice because it doubles as a cantrip if you need it) you still can remove the Meddling Mage. Of course, white NQG could still counter, but red NQG's more aggressive strategy should not give white NQG the time to do so.

Time to face facts, red NQG is more aggressive than white NQG. Simply the fact that Meddling Mages are replaced by Nimble Mongeese show how the deck doesn't have the same controlling capacity, but is better at beating down. In my opinion, it would be best to embrace that and drop the Predicts or Accumulated Knowledges for the said burn.

My apologies for the long post, I lost cleanly to red Gro playing white Gro in the finals of a tournament and have spent a while analyzing how and why.

What I find really interesting, and satisfying, is the fact that several of those lists are packing the full compliment of Counterspells. I have been running 4 FoW, 4 Counterspell, and 3 Daze simply because I don't own Mages. So I hit cardshark up for a few Dragons and I'll make the switchover to UGr...especially if it has the advantage in the mirror.

BTW, how many players were in that GPT?

I think it was 19. Not many people there but still, 6 out of 7 NQG decks made top 8. I wonder how many goblins showed up there though, is there a way of finding out?

I also find it interesting about the Counterspells. I have 2-3(switch off a lot) in my deck, but whenever I try and add a 4th one, it becomes bad. Most of the time I can't cast it. I think 2 is the right number but at times I wish I had more. The lack of Mages might warrant having 4, but without Mages I would definately switch to the URG version.

I think those results are cool as shit (the cool kind of shit, that is), but with only 19 players, let's not jump to absurd conclusions. It's a good deck, let just leave it at that.

A lot more testing will need to be done before we can reasonably conclude that UGr > UGw.

Anyway, congrats to all who placed well.

@ windux - Thanks for posting those lists.



Edited By bardo_trout on 1133758639

Excuse me if this was answered earlier in the thread. Anyways, I'm thinking about running the UGR version of the deck. What should my sideboard strategy be against Survival Advantage? And what about goblins or Angel Stompy? I would guess that we can just race Angel Stompy. And with goblins, we'd side out Fledgling Dragon and Daze and side in 4 pyroclasm. Any thoughts?

The best way to beat RGSA is when they never draw a red source of mana. I lost to the red splash version today... (my first match loss since round 14 of Philly...8-0-2) And the loss came to a a sub-par player (sorry wastedlife... you made more mistakes than you admitted to) Bottom line is I shouldn't have spent my round 1 bye in the bar..... that or I shouldn't have been so cockey and just cast creatures like I did in Philly. I tried to win via wish targets all three games... bad idea. If RGSA just casts blockers/beaters with one mana open.... it's bad for NQG. I haven't quite gained a fear for the deck, but it has raised an eyebrow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mulletus

The best way to beat RGSA is when they never draw a red source of mana. I lost to the red splash version today... (my first match loss since round 14 of Philly...8-0-2) And the loss came to a a sub-par player (sorry wastedlife... you made more mistakes than you admitted to) Bottom line is I shouldn't have spent my round 1 bye in the bar..... that or I shouldn't have been so cockey and just cast creatures like I did in Philly. I tried to win via wish targets all three games... bad idea. If RGSA just casts blockers/beaters with one mana open.... it's bad for NQG. I haven't quite gained a fear for the deck, but it has raised an eyebrow.

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Wish targets? What sort of build are you playing?

Anyways, in testing I haven't had a problem with RGSA. I just needle/mage survival and then counter or swords everything big. This is one of the matchups where I find the white splash to be significantly stronger than the red-- if you keep survival from getting active, you should win.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mulletus

The best way to beat RGSA is when they never draw a red source of mana. I lost to the red splash version today... (my first match loss since round 14 of Philly...8-0-2) And the loss came to a a sub-par player (sorry wastedlife... you made more mistakes than you admitted to) Bottom line is I shouldn't have spent my round 1 bye in the bar..... that or I shouldn't have been so cockey and just cast creatures like I did in Philly. I tried to win via wish targets all three games... bad idea. If RGSA just casts blockers/beaters with one mana open.... it's bad for NQG. I haven't quite gained a fear for the deck, but it has raised an eyebrow.

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I made A mistake as in one. I played very carefully all day I know I played the match right there was A mistake. I'm a retard and forgot what to put ontop with magma jet, so I predicted and realized I'm a dumbass because I put bear the second card down not thinking what I put ontop of the bear is what hurt. Which gave me threshold which I was somewhat happy about, that's why. Having a 4/4 for 2 against a eck with big creatures too is huge. I boarded in Pyroclasm, Naturalize, and Furnace, against john pyroclasm worked as a wrath 3 times. Well you ran out of creatures games two and three so how would you of just played more? game 2 and 3 you didn't have survival until very late game.

Wow much replies on my Post.
So here we go:
At First Marcel Schweitzer.
I made Marcel Schweitzer Decklist. I wrote the list via ICQ to a friend who have the biggest Cardpool at home. I wrote

"8 Fetch, 2 Island [OR 7 Fetch, 3 island]"

I think he missunderstood that ;)

Also I putted 2 Needles in the Deck, but we didn't had the Cards there, because some toke them to Luxemburg.
So he simply putted 2 Counterspell in it to get the Count up on Four.
But he said, he really was screwed often. I don't know why..maybe because he never used the Werebear as the 4th Manasource to cast a Dragon...saw that 2 Times ;)

Tobias Henke:
I think the Reason, to don't play 2 Dragons was, that he didn't have them ;) So he putted 2 Clasms in. Don't Know really, but I gonna ask him ;)


Mental Note:
I played Round 2 ,3 +4 Mirror (2 = Marcel Won, 3 = Tobias henke Won, 4 = Tim Sontagel ID but played out and Won)
I never lost, because my Opponent played Mental note for Threshold.
Simply, because you often Mill away Critters, Burn or Good Draw. I mean henke Did First Turn Mental note on Mongoose and Werebear. Not that good right? ;)

/w got much more CQ and also Canttrips/Draw and the better Solution. To put a Needle on Dragon is a 2:1 Trade. he needs Burn+ Dragon to kill your Enforcer. [2:2 at burn+Dragon vs. Needle+Forcer, 4:3 2 Burn, 2 Dragon vs. 2 Enforcer 1 needle and so on]

I didn't read your Hole Comments after my Post but i think its Interesting for you to know the exact Metagame+Player Totals:
Player 19
5 NQG/r
2 NQG/w
3 Goblins
2 High Tide
1 UWC (Hauke in the Top8. He Scooped against Tim because he allready Got Byes)
1 RW Aggroglide
1 Evil Grow (BGR Burn+Dryad+Duress+Confidant..2-1 Drop because of Birthday of his Brother)
1 Ying-Yang (Pikula Style)
1 UB RandomAggro
1 UW-Landstill
1 RW-Boros Burn

Milling yourself does not decrease the chances of drawing a certain card. Yes, it may mill away those cards you want, but it may also mill away chaff you don't want.

Caring about the cards you mill away is like looking at the top few cards of your library after you decide to mulligan; it does not mean the choice you made was right or wrong, because there was a chance involved before you knew what those cards were. Everyone can tell stories about how some player or other lost because they milled away cards they needed; what no one knows or remembers is how many times that player won because they milled away chaff to accelerate to their threats.

I have question on the UGB list posted on page one. I like it better then the other 2 (since I have all the cards -1 Underground). I got to thinking wouldn't Lim-Dul's Vault fit nicely into it? I replaced the A.K. with Predict, just beacuse without Intuition AK sucks. Also what other removale could be used instead of the Demise? I like that it cost 1 mana but it's just seems kinda meh. But I haven' t done testing yet so I can say for sure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mulletus

The best way to beat RGSA is when they never draw a red source of mana. I lost to the red splash version today... (my first match loss since round 14 of Philly...8-0-2) And the loss came to a a sub-par player (sorry wastedlife... you made more mistakes than you admitted to) Bottom line is I shouldn't have spent my round 1 bye in the bar..... that or I shouldn't have been so cockey and just cast creatures like I did in Philly. I tried to win via wish targets all three games... bad idea. If RGSA just casts blockers/beaters with one mana open.... it's bad for NQG. I haven't quite gained a fear for the deck, but it has raised an eyebrow.

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Yeah, then you lost to illusions-donate-belcher-brainfreeze.dec..............(maybe it's time to cut back on the sauce.)


In any case, I'm starting to believe that red may be the way to go with nqg, if only for the ability to play with pyroclasm to smash the hell out of goblins. Having magma jet to abuse predict with is also a lot more savage than I would have imagined.