[Deck] Burn

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Originally Posted by LordEvilTeaCup

Any new developments as far as which artifact to use instead of Cursed Scroll? Ankh seems like an interesting suggestion, but it does cost 2 to throw down and is a horrible top deck for the most part. Still, I suppose if dropped early on its a beating... I believe if we figure out all the artifact slots, this build could present tangible advantages over normal burn builds.

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This problem is easily solved by running Chrome Mox. (Which is exactly what my build is doing.) Leading turn one Mountain, Mox, Ankh might be one of the sickest plays in Legacy, as then several of their lands will cost them 5 damage a shot. Chrome Mox also makes power cards like Flamebreak and Price of Progress much more maindeckable, as they're Mox fodder in matches where they're useless.

Additionally, when Ankh limits your opponent's total number of land drops, they will go for the lands that fix their manabase the quickest: Duals. This allows you to punish them with Price of Progress.

For the record, here's said Ankh list. The sideboard is still in the works, though.

14 Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ankh of Mishra
4 Price of Progress
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Incinerate
4 Flamebreak
4 Fireblast

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

This problem is easily solved by running Chrome Mox. (Which is exactly what my build is doing.) Leading turn one Mountain, Mox, Ankh might be one of the sickest plays in Legacy, as then several of their lands will cost them 5 damage a shot. Chrome Mox also makes power cards like Flamebreak and Price of Progress much more maindeckable, as they're Mox fodder in matches where they're useless.

Additionally, when Ankh limits your opponent's total number of land drops, they will go for the lands that fix their manabase the quickest: Duals. This allows you to punish them with Price of Progress.

For the record, here's said Ankh list. The sideboard is still in the works, though.

14 Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ankh of Mishra
4 Price of Progress
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Incinerate
4 Flamebreak
4 Fireblast

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Its also cute how chrome mox and the ankh interact. How has Chrome Mox been working as a 4 of? It seems a bit high, and having to pitch too much business can really suck. I suppose that is a worthy sacrifice to increase chances of turn one ankh....

I kinda of like Cursed Scroll in that it gives you a reusable damage source. Its quite inefficient compared to your burn spells, but I find myself drawing a mountain and having nothing to do anyway.... Now my dead top deck became 2 damage!

Shrapnel Blast and the artifact crew, seem to cause this deck to feel a little less reliable to me. When I need an artifact to sac to blast, it never seems to show up. Plus, I am never sure if I should wait to see if I draw into a shrapnel blast to sac the star or just go ahead and draw my much needed card. Ditto with the Baubles. Even as a 3 of, I am surprised of the many times Shrapnel Blast a dead card in my hands. You were very right Sacearuse when you said 4 was too many. Meh, I really want it to work out because Shrapnel + Chromatic= happy times.

About the list, I'm sorry for being off-topic, but you could read between the lines: the list I proposed could be made a transformationnal SB, when your opponent has sided out all the permanent removals... If double black of Stalker comes out to be a problem, you may consider confidant too.
I know it's not improving your combo MU, but is your combo MU really defendable? Wouldn't you prefer to focus on MUs that can really be improved?

By the way, Tacosnape, Stalker and Tarmogoyf work well together, even better than grunt and tarmogoyf. And you know what? You are never forced to play Stalker if it would damage too much your tarmogoyf... Playing 4 moxen in burn with no scrying is plain stupid. The main problem of burn is card advantage.

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Originally Posted by LordEvilTeaCup

Meh, I really want it to work out because Shrapnel + Chromatic= happy times.

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3 Mana for 5 damage is ok. Browbeat or Flames of the Blood hand do similar damage for the same Mana while being more consistent.
And lol at Tacosnape for randomly hating Magma Jet. Jet is one of the best Burn spells in the deck.

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Originally Posted by Tao

3 Mana for 5 damage is ok. Browbeat or Flames of the Blood hand do similar damage for the same Mana while being more consistent.
And lol at Tacosnape for randomly hating Magma Jet. Jet is one of the best Burn spells in the deck.

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Actually its 3 mana for 5 damage AND you draw a card. That is just sick, but yeah it is not consistent enough. I think Flames of the Blood Hand is a solid card period, and is probably better MB material than Vortex.

A Magma Jet hate club would be fun! Its a solid card, but I find its a 50/50 whether the scry is useful or not. With such a low land count, you will have plenty of times that you will just see business cards on the top instead. So it feels randomly amazing, and randomly crappy.

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Originally Posted by LordEvilTeaCup

Actually its 3 mana for 5 damage AND you draw a card. That is just sick

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No, it isn't. You're putting in two cards (Blast + Star), so it's actually -1 CA, not card parity.

Though it should also be considered that 1+2 mana is not the same as 3 mana (otherwise Exalted Angel would suck bollocks).

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Originally Posted by Nihil

No, it isn't. You're putting in two cards (Blast + Star), so it's actually -1 CA, not card parity.

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Yeah oops, my mistake. With Baubles its 2 mana for 5 dmg and card disadvantage! Shrapnel Blast is definitely an interesting card, but it looks difficult to make it worth while.

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Originally Posted by LordEvilTeaCup

A Magma Jet hate club would be fun! Its a solid card, but I find its a 50/50 whether the scry is useful or not. With such a low land count, you will have plenty of times that you will just see business cards on the top instead. So it feels randomly amazing, and randomly crappy.

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Devil's advocate: with such a low land count, sometimes I'm searching for that 3rd or 4th land to play my 3-drops and Fireblasts. Other times, knowing what's coming up helps me plan how to divide my burn between life and creatures. Even if you merely confirm the best possible situation, information is important even in a simple deck as this. That said, a lot of builds are going towards Baubles now, where I realize Jet is generally bad.

I have added Phyrexian Purnace in place of Cursed Scroll, I want the artifacts I play to draw a card. This way they are not a "dead" card, if you need a burn spell then just sac the artifact to draw one. Shrap Blast is really only two mana, you generaly drop the star one turn and sac it on the next.

As far as ankh is concerned, its good, def. has a spot in this deck. I really think you need to run 4 though, its kind of a must draw card. With Shrap Blasty in the deck Ankh becomes even better, turns into 5 damage.

Chrome Mox doesn't seem good here, you have to discard a card to play it and tap it for mana. Burn is on such a short clock as it is, I really wouldn't want to discard a burn spell to play a mox. I will test it with the Ankh's in the deck though, let everyone know how it goes.

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Originally Posted by Sacearuse

I have added Phyrexian Purnace in place of Cursed Scroll, I want the artifacts I play to draw a card. This way they are not a "dead" card, if you need a burn spell then just sac the artifact to draw one. Shrap Blast is really only two mana, you generaly drop the star one turn and sac it on the next.

As far as ankh is concerned, its good, def. has a spot in this deck. I really think you need to run 4 though, its kind of a must draw card. With Shrap Blasty in the deck Ankh becomes even better, turns into 5 damage.

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Ankh and Shrapnel blast are pretty sweet together, but has Shrapnel Blast really been working out for you? I was goldfishing your list and the Blast seemed a little inconsistent. Maybe I am not playing it right?

These builds are taking me way back.... They're reminding me of GAS builds back when the Albany meta still existed (i.e., before our store closed... so back in '05.) in a lot of ways, the primary differences being that we didn't have baubles and wraith we were just using moxes, ankhs, furnaces, scrolls, shrap, and a lot of burn....

Interesting to see how things come full circle.

One day I'm going to learn that posting in the Burn thread is like arguing with a tree stump.

@Mox: Chrome Mox is good in burn. Somewhere in this thread or an older burn thread I did a complete mathematical dissertation on why it's good. Burn's problem isn't card advantage. Burn's problem is speed. Chrome Mox not only allows turn one Ankhs, it allows the deck to hit turn three kills with much more frequency. Four might be excessive, so run three if you like.

@Magma Jet: Don't make me laugh. Magma Jet completely blows. 2 Mana for 2 damage is pathetic, Scry or not. Magma Jet will lose you more games by losing the damage race than it will win you by fixing your hand. Inflicting 2 on turn 2 versus your opponent dropping a Tarmogoyf on turn 2 is not an acceptable way to get ahead.

@Maveric: Do you even understand what 'synergy' is? At all? Tarmogoyf and Grunt don't play well together either, and Jotun Grunt's a completely crappy card anyway. Just because they're both strong on their own doesn't mean they synergize. Grunt has no synergy with Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker has no synergy with Tarmogoyf, and Grunt has no synergy with Tombstalker. Either one shrinks Tarmogoyf, and Tombstalker shortens Grunt's lifespan while Grunt makes it harder to play Stalker.

Now that we've covered two godawful cards in this thread (Jet*, Grunt), anyone want to go on a tangent and remind us how awesome Browbeat is? Please?

*For what it's worth, Jet's just godawful in burn. It's okay in other decks.

@taco : simple question about the build you posted on top of this page. don't you have some troubles paying for the fireblasts ?

a simple prob analysis shows that if you're holding one fireblast in hand, you won't find two mountains to sacrifice by your fifth draw (meaning either t5 or t6) around 21 % of the time (ie more than 1 out of 5 times). And if you want it by your fourth draw (ie either t4 or t5), then you'll miss it ~26 % of the time (more than 1 out of 4 times).

would'nt it be a good idea to cut one mox (keeping 3 of them) for an additional mountain ?

Also, what's your opinion of keldon marauders ?

Has anyone considered Copper Tablet in a deck with Shrapnel blast? I know it costs 2, doesn't replace itself, and only does a single damage, but it does so every turn till the Shrap shows up. Shrap fodder that does damage - could it be made to work?

so you cast tablet turn 2.

turn 3 1 damage
turn 4 1 damage
turn 5 1 damage

only if it is there turn 5 its is semi decent. burn shouldnt get to turn 5

Hmm. What about Searing Flesh? I mean, you know how it sometimes happens: you get your opponent down to seven, then proceed to draw nothing but Mountains for something like five turns while while your opponent refuses to kill you. In these situations, you could topdeck the Flesh, and windmill slam it down on the table -- for the win! Now wouldn't that be awesome?

I think it's worth considering.

EDIT -- Also, I just thought of this: what about splashing white for Loxodon Peacekeeper (and Lightning Helix)? It's a 4/4 for only two mana, which is pretty awesome (maybe even better than Tarmogoyf for a faster deck like this one), and goes well with your aggressive theme; throw burn at them, swing a few times, and the game is pretty much yours. It also diverts removal away from your Mogg Fanatics. What do you think?

@Loxodon: I think playing something in a burn deck that requires your life total to be lower than your opponent's at any given time is a bad idea. Or at least unlikely to be effective.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

@Magma Jet: Don't make me laugh. Magma Jet completely blows. 2 Mana for 2 damage is pathetic, Scry or not. Magma Jet will lose you more games by losing the damage race than it will win you by fixing your hand. Inflicting 2 on turn 2 versus your opponent dropping a Tarmogoyf on turn 2 is not an acceptable way to get ahead.]

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Magma Jet has been used in EVERY!!! successful burn list (Top 8 lists that I've seen) over the last half year and in more than 90% of them as a 4-of. Every time I talk to a Burn player who brings the deck to tournaments about their deck they say just how good Jet is (happened 3 times so far).

So just saying that Magma Jet "makes you laugh" like it was a weird rogue choice is the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time. Especially when you present a list with the almighty Chrome Mox - turn 1 double Bolt you HAHAHAHAHAHA (too bad you didn't have your Mox/Ankh Combo in your starting hand).

The reasons for Jet become clear in in testing. Everyone who seriously tests the deck won't play less than 4.

Jet is better than Incinerate. When playing against Burn with a deck I would always let Incinerate resolve, but from time to time counter Jet, especially after boarding. I don't say that you can't play both, but Jet will statistically deal more than 3 dmg to the opponent. And if fired on a creature that has to die (usually Lackey, Warchief or Hypnotic Specter) the difference becomes even bigger.

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Originally Posted by Tao

Magma Jet has been used in EVERY!!! successful burn list (Top 8 lists that I've seen) over the last half year and in more than 90% of them as a 4-of.

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Thats because no one wants to try Baubles and Wraiths! Or maybe all the people who play Bauble/Wraith burn lose... Either way I will continue to delude myself, because Baubles and Wraiths give me more to do than just throw bolts at my opponent's face. And who knows, maybe a Bauble.dec will actually outperform its counterpart. On that note, its kinda funny how sac lands, baubles, and wraiths all make opponents' gofys happy. Perhaps that is one of the biggest problems with Baubles. Bauble Stalker FTW!

i am actually thinking of dding 4 wraiths... still not sure... im quite burn orthodox