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Why is no one running Nightmare Void? If you can stop Wombat from going aggro, Nightmare Void will recur to be a huge kick in the junk against slow control decks; you can literally rip apart their hand and then swing. This is especially significant because Wombat can't actually get card advantage, it can only filter its cards.
Personally? I don't run it because it's slow and my build is designed to be fast. More importantly though, Wombat isn't really a metagame concern in my meta. If it were, and I was going to SB specifically for it, I think I'd run something more likely to utterly neuter it, like Stench of Evil. Certainly Stench is the narrower card, but it's better at the specific job. Outside of the Wombat matchup, Nightmare Void is really only necessary against combo, and I'm already running 4x Chalice and 4x Needle for that purpose.
I have a question. Has anyone else been unhappy with the Grave Troll? I been messing around with a version of this deck and have been totally unhappy with it. I might go with the Imp, but not sure. My problem with the Troll is with so few creatures in the deck it really is never that big. I mean the Dredge 6 is nice, But 5 mana for a 1/1 or 2/2 ! ??? Maybe I'm doing something wrong but WTF.
So i was sitting on my couch watching Down Periscope, the Kelsey Grammer movie. Reading the forum's and Going over the recent improvment's/developement stage's the deck has been going through, I decided to put a deck list of my own toghter.
Creatures
Psychatog-4
Wonder-1
Counter Spell's
Circular Logic-4
Force of Will-4
Counterspell-4
Force Spike-2
Draw Spell's
Fact or Fiction-3
Accumilated Knowledge-4
Mental Note-3
Deep Analysis-1
Gift Ungiven-1
Other Spell's
Smother-2
Engineered Plague-3
Darkblast-1
Land's
Polluted Delta-4
U/B Duel-3
Island-9
Cephalid-2
Cabal Pit-1
Swamp-2
Stalking Stones-2
Don't ask me about side board yet i have no clue, However i have nothing but faith in the Stalking stone's keep in mind this is a control varient, Doctor Teeth is now a Professor in Classroom 101.
I really don't think we need anymore deck lists in this thread. All the lists I've seen so far are basically the same (a few different card choices). If everyone comes up with one how are we going to get any where? I think it's time that we, meaning people who are interested in improving this deck, need to chose a build and start tweaking it. I personally like Zilla's list and will start trying to tweak it.
I personally think people with list's should contribute THEM if they have them, it's part of the entire process and i don't think we need to narrow Down and pick ONE build.
You're running a single Darkblast with only 1 Gifts Ungiven to tutor for it. I wouldn't even call your list Dredge Tog. It's just Hulk Smash with a Darkblast in it. I don't mean to be impolite, but it appears that you're missing the entire point of the archetype.
Do you see any Cunning Wish's or Berserks? No i didn't think so btw they combined the TWO forum topic's if you look back a bit, hense why im posting it in here. MY deck is control varient i also made a few changes.
-1 Plague
+1 Stinkweed Imp
-1 Fact or Fiction
+1 Gifts Ungiven
I'm not sure there can really be ONE build, as it depends on what you regularly play against, or expect to play against.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus
I just won/split in the finals of the GenCon SoCal 40 duals Legacy tournament this past weekend. My tournament report, and decklist can be found here:
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/i...?topic=25643.0
"They" didn't do any such thing. I merged two seperate Dredge Tog threads here in Developmental. There's still a standalone Hulk thread in Open for the discussion of non-Dredge Tog strategies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus
And no, I don't see Cunning Wish or Berserk. What I see a slow-as-balls control list with a minimal number of dredge cards and no Intuitions to search for them, meaning your list is inferior to both Dredge Tog and Hulk Smash. Congratulations.
That's very single minded of you i'm not running combo your right i am however running dredge so my deck fall's under the dredge thread. I do not wish to run Combo I Run dredge though wich makes mine a CONTROL varient, Oh look gifts Ungiven go figure.
My point is this: one of the most significant aspects which makes Tog an even vaguely viable strategy in this format is its ability to race when it needs to. This is the reason that even the much more controlling iteration of Tog (Hulik Smash) runs Cunning Wish for Berserk. It can literally cut the time it takes to go lethal in half. Without this ability, Tog provides a clock roughly on par with Morphling, which is, in most peoples' estimation, too slow for this format.
The reason that many Dredge Tog lists don't run the Wish>Zerk plan is because the Dredge cards provide roughly the same speed, which makes it largely unnecessary. However, this strategy works for Dredge Tog is due in large part to the inclusion of Intuition, which allows you to dig for your more important Dredge cards and draw to go with it. Without Intuition backing it up, it's mostly superfluous.
You have Gifts Ungiven, but you only have one of them, and frankly, they're just a slower Intuition. The reason they get run in Extended is because Intuition isn't legal int hat format. If it were, you'd be seeing Intuition replace them in those lists, because it's a full turn faster,use them to tutor for a single card without having to use recursion to get it back from the yard.
As I said, I'm not trying to attack you personally, I'm just saying that it appears you're missing the point of the Dredge strategy in Tog. Even the more controlling lists in this thread are running at least 3 Intuition to dig up their Dredge elements asap. You don't have to be playing a combo-style build to want the speed and versatility offered by this plan.
Something people should think about :
Playing with the Cephalid Coliseum/Centaur Garden/Cabal Pit toolbox. Those lands are just great, and the Life engine gives them more and more power. Being able to recurre a Garden is like playing a Giant Growth each turn, which is far from being negligible.
And you can tutor them with Intuition (typically, Land + Life + Land/Deep Analysis/Brainstorm).
The only problem with this secondary engine is its speed : it is quite slow, turn 3+, and is not of a big use against Goblin. However, it really shines against control. Attacking with a 6/6 Brawn is alway funny :D
As anyone considered including Anger? After playing the deck this past weekend, I needed a Tog with Haste for the win.
@Zilla:I was wondering how often do you go turn 4? Is off the nut hand or what? Also could you give a little sample play or what to do in certain situations please?
Has anyone given thought to using Ichorid in Dredgatog like they did in Extended? It's nuts AND naturally synergistic. Plus, I'm sure there are cards in Legacy that will work well in Ichorid that don't exist in Extended, such as Recurring Nightmare. Recur your Grave-Trolls by sacrificing Ichorid, which is going to die anyway! Think about it.
Hi, I don't know if anyone mentioned this yet, but is it possible to turn this into combo with tolarian winds / dredge cards (like gravetroll, imp, darkblast) / reanimate or exhume / krosan reclaimation. Sort of like the old Hermit/Sutured Ghoul decks? I've seen what tolarian winds do in extended with dredge and Ichorid, so in 1.5, this should be able to be abused on a much larger scale. Deck ideas anyone?
Nevermind, there's a seperate board for this idea.
I think anger is actually a terrible idea because this deck can't afford to draw the anger or the red mana source, it also splits the colour pie 4 ways. I hope you were kidding.
Of course there are better ways to abuse dredge but one of the best is tog.
-THIS DECK IS NOT FRIGGORID-
You need to watch out not to make this a dredge deck, its a tog deck that utalizes it. You can't replace amazing cards with mediocre ones to make up for dredging. In my testing I haven't needed Genesis, I think he's clunky, slow, and starting off with him is almost as bad as taking a mulligan since you need a discard outlet. Unless you want to tap out on turn 4/5 to play a vanilla 4/4. If for some f'ed up reason you dredge away 3 togs and your opponent sends one farming you can still cunning wish for reclaim.
4 tog, 1 wonder, maybe 1 meloko should round out your creatures. Stinkweed is largely irrelavent to the decks mission. He'll get gempalms or stp'd all day against the decks you'd actually play him out against. Witness also becomes a liability. I've tested 1-2 copies and everytime I draw see her opening hand I wish she was a force spike. You already have recurring land tricks that feed your win condition, witness=win more liability.
I'd also like to endorse cunning wish even in dredge heavy builds. You draw about 2/3 of the time you normally would in a loam based deck. You need to ensure you draw what you need and cunning wish is known for doing that I hear.
Darkblast is much more important in 1.5 and I would at least play 3 maindeck along with 3 deeds to round out removal slots.
Focusing discussion on one fixed decklist is irrational but I think we should decide on a core 30 cards or so. Heres my suggestion.
3 Mox Diamond
1 Celaphid Colesium
1 Lonely Sandbar
4 Delta
2-4 Additional Fetch
4 Watery Grave
4 Tropical Island
? Wasteland
? basics
4 Dr. Teeth
1-3 back up men
4 Force of will
4 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
3-4 Intuition
1-3 Darkblast
3-4 Loam
? Deed
? C Logic
? F Spike
? FoF
? AK
? Deep Anal
? C Wish
? Duress
Lets try to work on that core 30 cards.
Please explain choices. Removal debates have been beaten to death so maybe we should figure that out later.
@Bane: How fast can you get Tog big turn 9??? The reason Imp/Troll are there is because of the how many card they Dredge. With out them you are just going to get run over by Goblins and Solidarity because your list is looking to slow. This deck pretty much needs to race those match-ups. I really think you should look at Zillas list and go from there.
@Anger:Have you tested it? It allows you to drop Tog, and swing in the same turn. It really isn't that hard to splash for either 1x Volcanic Island.
Genesis can be cut. Sometimes it's good, while others it just get eaten by Tog. I'll give that one.
In the Deeding greener builds, I HATED how Mox Diamond interacted with Deed. I always wanted the Diamond to be Exploration, since that is nearly as good at accelerating early game, and much more useful late-game. It also doesn't die to a random Deed for 0 (against Affinity, Mishra's Factory, or a random Engineered Explosives).
I really don't feel you need Deed at all. It just slows you down also. You just race anything.
I do feel that more Cycle Lands need to be added. Upping the count to 6-8. More testing should reveal the correct number. I would rather pitch one to Mox Diamond, and always bring 3 back with Life and not to mention dig deeper into the deck.
@Tolarian Winds:Not that bad of an idea. With any Dredge cards in hand you can just replace some of your draws to Dredge them back. Worth some testing I think.