Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Well, if you don't like ETW, take it out. But really, it's useful when you only have a storm of ~5 and you wanna avoid counters or answers of your opponents on turns 1-2. 5 Storm is great with ETW.
Finding a hard source or a black spell is actually not that bad in Hand 4 Mulligan. You only saw 1 Mox and a SSG for mana sources. There's still 10 land in the deck, 8 Black Rituals, 2 Infernal Tutors, IGG, Tendrils, and 4 Lotus Petals. So that's like 22 cards in the deck that could work for you. And if you drew into another LED, you'd have it there too. So that's really like 25 cards out of the remaining 54. So roughly 45% chance of the top card having win, and your odds get better as you draw. And that's just for a turn 1-2 kill. You'd get an LED btw.
Also, SSG don't help you get Threshold...they get removed from game.
And in Hand 6, that's why Im not a huge fan of the Draw4s. They kinda work against Infernal Tutor if you don't have LED. You did pretty good though. Sometimes you just draw into nothing. I might have mulliganed the Hand 6.
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ParkerLewis
T1 : Gemstone, Ponder, saw Infernal Contract (D4), Cruel Bargain (D4), Chrome Mox. I chose to not shuffle, knowing I’d get a Draw4 for next turn. Was I right to do this up to this point ?
T2 : City of Brass.
My hand is now Chrome Mox, Infernal Contract (D4), LED, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Rite of Flame. I also know that i have a Cruel Bargain (D4) on top.
I’d go City->Dark Ritual->Cabal Ritual->Infernal Contract, floating B (playing the Cabal with Dark mana so that i keep my multicolored mana options of Gemstone open). Storm count : 3. Am I still right ?
I draw Cruel Bargain (D4) (as expected), Gemstone, Infernal Tutor, Orim’s Chant.
Now, I’d say the correct play would be to go off by tutoring an IGG to add some storm and then tendrils.
So : Playing Gemstone, Tapping for W, Orim’s Chant (Storm 4). Led (Storm 5). Mox imprinting Cruel Bargain (Storm 6). Tapping Gemstone for R, Rite of Flame (Storm 7), floating RRB. Playing Infernal Tutor (Storm 8) with Hellbent to fetch IGG. While IT’s on the sack, sac LED for BBB. Mana floating : RBBB.
(by the way, simple question : if i had an extra card in hand at this point, I would still have had achieved Hellbent on IT’s resolution thanks to LED, thus been able to get IGG, right ?)
Playing IGG (Storm 9). I go get Dark Ritual (i won’t have threshold anymore so I don’t want Cabal), LED, and IT. Playing LED (Storm 10). Tapping Chrome Mox for B, playing Dark Ritual (Storm 11), playing IT (B floating, Storm 12) with Hellbent. Sac LED in response for BBB (BBBB floating), getting Tendrils, Tendrils for 26 life.
Wow, it went right ! :D Still, what would you have done differently ?
I think you played a 3rd land on turn 2. About the LED question: yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ParkerLewis
* Sample Hand 4 : Gemstone, Chrome Mox, Dark Ritual, Canal Ritual, SSG, Rite of Flame, Orim’s Chant.
My analysis : no draw, no tutor, mulligan.
Wrong, keep especially on the draw.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ParkerLewis
Mulligan into : Chrome Mox, LED, SSG, Ponder, Infernal Tutor, Infernal Tutor.
My analysis : I can’t cast a simple spell so that would go to trash bin too… am I still right now that mulliganing again would mean getting only 5 cards ? Or should I hope drawing a land to use Ponder ?
Wrong, if you draw anything that makes mana you will be able to play EtW, Diminishing returns or of it's a Dark Ritual or LED, IGG.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ParkerLewis
* Sample Hand 5 : Gemstone, BWish, Infernal Tutor, Brainstorm, Ponder, Cabal Ritual, Orim’s Chant.
My analysis : I’d keep. I’ll be able to play Ponder on T1 to see what’s coming and getting additional mana.
T1 : Gemstone. Actually, should I play Ponder first and keep Brainstorm for later (thus being able do dig further if needed), or play Brainstorm now and counting on the possibility to Ponder next turn (at the latest) to shuffle what i would be putting back if needed ?
You should play the Ponder first.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ParkerLewis
I chose to play Ponder first, seeing LED, IT, Rite of Flame. One LED is great. I chose to not shuffle, and set up the draws so that next turn I’ll have both LED and RoF (with an IT on top).
T2 : Brainstorm, seeing IT, SSG, Orim. Now that’s pretty bad. I guess my only choice now is to Bwish for a Draw4 next turn (which I would pay for with LED). I put IT and Orim on top, which means my hand is now : LED, SSG, Cabal Ritual, Rite of Flame, BWish, IT, Orim’s Chant.
T3 : Drawing Orim as expected. LED (Storm 1). SSG, Rite of Flame, Tapping (and sac’ing) Gemstone for B, Cabal Ritual (Storm 3), BWish for Cruel Bargain, sacrificing LED in response for BBB (Storm 4, BBBBR floating).
Note : I figured i’d better use my Cabal Ritual and lose my ability to generate blue with Gemstone than the opposite. Was it the optimal play ?
Playing Cruel Bargain (Storm 5, BR floating). Drawing Tendrils, Undiscovered Paradise, Gemstone, Infernal Tutor. At this point, i’d have to concede the game.
Did i go wrong somewhere, or was it just « tough luck » ?
Again, you should have set the IT on top instead of Chant and used the IT to find a 2nd LED, play 2 LED's, play Wish, Crack LED's, find IGG.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ParkerLewis
* Sample Hand 6 : City, Mox, Mox, SSG, SSG, Ponder, Cruel Bargain.
My analysis : I can use Ponder to help me get the black mana needed to use Cruel Bargain, or to find a tutor… but i don’t know if this is enough to keep it. Since I’m lacking experience, and playing it doesn’t really cost me anything, I chose to play it, but it’s very possible that it’s not the correct choice. Was it ?
This time I am not sure, I don't have much experiance with Draw4's and this hand is very weak. I don't know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ParkerLewis
T1 : City, Ponder. Seeing LED, LED, Rite of Flame. Neither black mana nor tutor. Now that’s not good at all. Shuffle, and I draw a Ponder. Great…
T2 : Drawing Orim’s Chant. Playing Ponder, seeing Infernal Contract (D4), Lotus Petal, and Dark Ritual. Now that’s what I needed. I draw the Dark Rit and put Lotus on top (maybe i should have doneit the other way in the abstract, but it doesnt really matter here).
T3 : Drawing Lotus as expected. Dark Ritual, Cruel Bargain (8 life, Storm 2). Drawing Infernal Contract (as expected), Cabal Ritual, Rite of Flame, IT.
My hand is now : Chrome Mox, Chrome Mox, SSG, SSG, Lotus Petal, Cabal Ritual, Rite of Flame, Infernal Contract, Infernal Tutor, Orim’s Chant.
Chrome Mox imprinting SSG (Storm 3). SSG (i chose not to imprint this second one to Chrome Mox, thus helping me reach threshold for the upcoming Cabal Ritual)
Wrong, it's removed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ParkerLewis
, R floating, 5 cards in Graveyard. Rite of Flame (Storm 4, RR floating). Lotus Petal, sac’ed for B : Storm 5, RRB floating, Threshold. Cabal Ritual (Storm 6), BBBBBR floating. Infernal Contract (BBR floating, Storm 7). Drawing City, Gemstone, RoF, IT.
My hand is now : Gemstone, City, Chrome Mox, RoF, IT, IT, Orim’s Chant. Storm 7, BBR floating, 4 life. In play : one tapped City, untapped Chrome Mox with SGG imprinted.
My only solution is to use everything to do reach Hellbent and IT for a win condition like Tendrils. But I can’t this turn since I have two lands in hand. I’m screwed again
After the first draw4 you could have achieved hellbent with the Moxes and played IT=>EtW.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ParkerLewis
Ok, so in the end it will only be 6 hands, but I’m a bit tired (slept 5 hours last night) and actually typing it out took quite a long time and I’m short on time now. Still, they're about representative of my experience with the deck (heck, this is almost my entire experience with it). And, out of these 6 hands :
-number 2 was an auto-loss (well i didn't try mulliganing to 4...). number 4 also looks like it to me. that's 33 %
-number 5 & 6, while promising, died on me along the way. another 33 %
-number 3 was a win yeah !
-number 1 might, in fact, have been playable (after the mulligan to 6).
What do you guys think ? Have I played optimally, or at least correctly (no blatant mistakes/misplays/bad decisions) ? Then, is this low success rate (1 out 6, maybe 2) (plus, facing no opposing disruption) due to my having had actual bad luck on these few samples ?
Thank you all for your feedback.
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
chokin
Well, if you don't like ETW, take it out. But really, it's useful when you only have a storm of ~5 and you wanna avoid counters or answers of your opponents on turns 1-2. 5 Storm is great with ETW.
Nonono, I was just implying that I was in a wrong mindset, and hadn't considered that yes, EtW makes a 4-5 Storm count good enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
chokin
Finding a hard source or a black spell is actually not that bad in Hand 4 Mulligan. You only saw 1 Mox and a SSG for mana sources. There's still 10 land in the deck, 8 Black Rituals, 2 Infernal Tutors, IGG, Tendrils, and 4 Lotus Petals. So that's like 22 cards in the deck that could work for you. And if you drew into another LED, you'd have it there too. So that's really like 25 cards out of the remaining 54. So roughly 45% chance of the top card having win, and your odds get better as you draw. And that's just for a turn 1-2 kill. You'd get an LED btw.
True... !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
chokin
Also, SSG don't help you get Threshold...they get removed from game.
yeah, i forget to actually remove them from the game about half the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
matelml
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ParkerLewis
* Sample Hand 4 : Gemstone, Chrome Mox, Dark Ritual, Canal Ritual, SSG, Rite of Flame, Orim’s Chant.
My analysis : no draw, no tutor, mulligan.
Wrong, keep especially on the draw.
? The cards i desperately need in this case are either BWish, IT, a D4, or a Ponder : 12 cards. I have about 50 % chance of drawing at least one in the first 3 draws.
Are these odds seriously enough for you ??
Quote:
Originally Posted by
matelml
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ParkerLewis
Mulligan into : Chrome Mox, LED, SSG, Ponder, Infernal Tutor, Infernal Tutor.
My analysis : I can’t cast a simple spell so that would go to trash bin too… am I still right now that mulliganing again would mean getting only 5 cards ? Or should I hope drawing a land to use Ponder ?
Wrong, if you draw anything that makes mana you will be able to play EtW, Diminishing returns or of it's a Dark Ritual or LED, IGG.
Granted, the odds are better in this case, around 2 out of 3, that I can see as worthwile.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
matelml
After the first draw4 you could have achieved hellbent with the Moxes and played IT=>EtW.
Very true. As I'm still a novice with the deck I guess I was kind of blinded by the possibility of drawing into more cards, not seeing how :
- I had an out without needing them
and most of all,
-drawing more cards CAN screw you over (making you unable to reach hellbent).
Thanks for your input.
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ParkerLewis
? The cards i desperately need in this case are either BWish, IT, a D4, or a Ponder : 12 cards. I have about 50 % chance of drawing at least one in the first 3 draws.
Are these odds seriously enough for you ??
On the draw you have 3 extra cards on turn 3, which is usually the last turn I try to win on. You have I think around 58% to draw one of those by then. Even if you need more time you can use the Chant to get an extra turn. If you draw another Chant you can probably get an extra turn for that too. Also I play 1 bussines spell more in my deck and depending on the situation drawing ETW/Diminishing Returns can be good too.
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Mateml is right. And if you don't draw a card you need, then you have increased odds to get it soon after that third draw.
I'm curious as to what sort of list everyone is running as of right now. Post?
4 SSG
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Infernal Contract
4 Orim's Chant
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Right of Flame
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone
2 Undiscovered Paradise
Sideboard //
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Contract
3 Shattering Spree
1 Tranquility
1 Pyroclasm
1 Goblin War Strike
4 REB/Pyroblast
I think this list is pretty good. I haven't won with ETW more than 2 or 3 times with this list though. I usually go for the throat with Tendrils. I'm gonna fine tune it. Maybe trim a Contract for another land. Or add Impulse to the mix.
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
chokin
Mateml is right. And if you don't draw a card you need, then you have increased odds to get it soon after that third draw.
I'm curious as to what sort of list everyone is running as of right now. Post?
4 SSG
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Infernal Contract
4 Orim's Chant
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Right of Flame
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone
2 Undiscovered Paradise
Sideboard //
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Contract
3 Shattering Spree
1 Tranquility
1 Pyroclasm
1 Goblin War Strike
4 REB/Pyroblast
I think this list is pretty good. I haven't won with ETW more than 2 or 3 times with this list though. I usually go for the throat with Tendrils. I'm gonna fine tune it. Maybe trim a Contract for another land. Or add Impulse to the mix.
I'm running your list exactly, except that my SB is different:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Contract
1 Tranquility
1 Cave-In
1 Hull Breach
1 Thoughtseize
2 Abeyance
4 REB/Pyroblast
Goblin War Strike is awful, IMO.
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Not having at least 1 Duress/Thoughtseize Sb is definitely a mistake. Also Impluse<Diabolic Vision (it lets you put back in any order) and Ponder>>>Diabolic Vision.
My list:
Obvious stuff
3 Chrome Mox
3 SSG
2 Cabal Ritual
2 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Tarnished Citadel
3 Ponder
2 Plunge into Darkness
1 EtW
Sb
1 EtW
1 Diminishing Returns
1 ToA
1 IGG
1 Duress
1 Shattering Spree
1 Grapeshot
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Duress
1 To be determined
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tacosnape
Why is 3 Diminishing Returns any better than 1 maindeck? It's still ridiculously dependent on Lotus Petal to cast from your hand unless you use Infernal Tutor/LED or Burning Wish/LED, which in either case means the number in your deck doesn't matter.
Diminishing Returns is an additional threat, and barring Ponder, the deck isn't using enough threats to withstand the mulligans. I don't see how Diminishing Returns is any more reliant on Lotus Petal than Infernal Contract is reliant on Dark Ritual, unless you're trying to use Orim's Chant on the same turn you go off, 15 U sources + 8 Chrome Mox sources + Tinder Wall go is usually a turn 2 cast.
The deck either needs more threat density or it needs Ponder, IMO, multiple Diminishing Returns and Empty the Warrens just makes you less reliant on LED.
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BreathWeapon
Diminishing Returns is an additional threat, and barring Ponder, the deck isn't using enough threats to withstand the mulligans. I don't see how Diminishing Returns is any more reliant on Lotus Petal than Infernal Contract is reliant on Dark Ritual, unless you're trying to use Orim's Chant on the same turn you go off, 15 U sources + 8 Chrome Mox sources + Tinder Wall go is usually a turn 2 cast.
The deck either needs more threat density or it needs Ponder, IMO, multiple Diminishing Returns and Empty the Warrens just makes you less reliant on LED.
3 Diminishing Returns clogs the deck. Drawing into them is not good. Tutoring into them is ok. You don't need more than 1 because of the Infernal Tutors and Burning Wishes. I don't know why you'd ever want to play more than 1. You basically put Tinder Wall in there to support an earlier DR or Warrens(both cranked to 3 each). Tinder Wall will never be better than Rite of Flame, as it can only ever make 2 mana. I suppose if you cast it, wait and then do it, it's like a free RoF, but that's like saying Xantid Swarm is better than Orim's Chant. Chant and RoF can't be killed, only countered.
You're making the deck more like Belcher, and I think that's the wrong direction.
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
chokin
3 Diminishing Returns clogs the deck. Drawing into them is not good. Tutoring into them is ok. You don't need more than 1 because of the Infernal Tutors and Burning Wishes. I don't know why you'd ever want to play more than 1. You basically put Tinder Wall in there to support an earlier DR or Warrens(both cranked to 3 each). Tinder Wall will never be better than Rite of Flame, as it can only ever make 2 mana. I suppose if you cast it, wait and then do it, it's like a free RoF, but that's like saying Xantid Swarm is better than Orim's Chant. Chant and RoF can't be killed, only countered.
You're making the deck more like Belcher, and I think that's the wrong direction.
Not to mention the only way to cast them is to crack LED. Playing Draw-4s are much better because of how easy they're to cast.
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anti~American4621
Not to mention the only way to cast them is to crack LED. Playing Draw-4s are much better because of how easy they're to cast.
Well, you can play both ETW and DR without using LED, but the double blue in DR is a pain most of the time. Also, with the removal of 10 cards at a time out of the deck, it's like a Glimpse the Unthinkable on yourself with no real benefit. At least with Glimpse you could like...IGG something...or if you were other decks, reanimate or Dredge. But DR is cool for a draw 7 at most 2 times...which is why there is one in board and one in the main.
Draw 4's can be cast off of a single Dark/Cabal Ritual or two lands and a Petal/Mox or in extreme cases, Infernal Tutor with LED. DR can't...it takes more steam and kinda needs Chant(or Swarm) to be really good.
ETW is really nice on the early turns, but I wouldn't wanna see more than 2 in a game either. It's nice to see a turn 1 Petal, RoF, RoF, Mox, ETW for 10, but most of the times it'll be Mox fodder because 4cc makes it too hard to get out of hand when you have Infernal Tutor (without LED obviously).
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
[QUOTE=chokin;201589] Also, with the removal of 10 cards at a time out of the deck, it's like a Glimpse the Unthinkable on yourself with no real benefit. At least with Glimpse you could like...IGG something...or if you were other decks, reanimate or Dredge.[QUOTE]
....:rolleyes:
Right, that's really the biggest disadvantage of Diminishing Returns.
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
matelml
....:rolleyes:
Right, that's really the biggest disadvantage of Diminishing Returns.
*pointing out the obvious
Yea... it's the UU2 in it's cost.
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Yesterday i got 2nd at a small local tournament with TES because i lost against Dragonstompy in the finals(agaiN :S). In g1 I was on the play, knew what he was playing and had the following hand:
2x City,Mine,Mox,D.Ritual,Infernal Tutor,Chant
Would you keep this while hoping for a 2nd ritual or a LED from the top to go for EtW?
I mulliganed it, played first turn ponder and said GO.
He played Chalice zero and Chalice one followed by a 2nd Turn trinisphere. The same in Game 2. But basicaly i want to know if my first decision was wrong.
Please help me :)
Jan
PS: I looked at the topcard, it was an LED.
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
ETW tokens is best vs. them.
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Depending on your sideboards ability to fight artifacts (I have 3 Spree), I'd have boarded those in to fight 3Sphere and CotV. Also, when you know you are going to be fighting a deck like DS, Stax, or even FS, a small ETW on the early turns is more than enough to beat them as WastedLife said.
If you expect DS matches or other heavy artifact builds, go for more hate to fight it.
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
I know that EtW is really good, but i had to topdeck in only 1 card :S Keep or Mull?
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Hey Bryant what is your exact list at the moment?
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
This is what I top 4'd/8'd with....
Bryant Cook - TES
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Infernal Contract
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Orim's Chant
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise
SB:
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tranquility
1 Pyroclasm
1 Thoughtseize
1 Infernal Contract
Re: [DTW] T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wastedlife
This is what I top 4'd/8'd with....
Bryant Cook - TES
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Infernal Contract
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Orim's Chant
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise
SB:
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tranquility
1 Pyroclasm
1 Thoughtseize
1 Infernal Contract
So the MD hasn't changed and the SB is basically the same.
