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you can lose to grindstone even w/ progenitus. his trigger goes on the stack, but the grindstone has to finish resolving, once grindstone grinded away your library they can pop tormod's crypt/relic in response to progenitus trigger. then all you get left is progenitus in your library, draw him next turn and lose the turn after.
Progenitus has no trigger. It's a replacement effect. The milling happens, and then Progs is the last card left in your library, since the "mill two" can't be satisfied.Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
If you run two of them, the game is a draw due to an unbound loop.
Yes, as Nightmare stated, Progenitus' ability is actually a replacement ability, not a triggered ability (unlike Gaea's Blessing).Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce
With Gaea's Blessing, they can indeed Crypt/Relic you while the Blessing trigger is on the stack and it would actually remove the Blessing as well.
Since Progenitus' ability is a replacement effect, nothing ever goes on the stack. His ability replaces the "put into the graveyard" and instead, he's shuffled back into your library.
With Survival in play, you can just keep Survivaling Progenitus back into your library, keeping you alive indefinitely, but again you still need to win the game off of what you have left in play and in your hand.
That would be hilarious to pull against a grindstone player... oh, you just gave me the 1-0-1 victory b/c you assembled your combo game 2 :cry: ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightmare
Thanks for the match :tongue: .
The score is 1-0-1, and you have to play until someone scores the 2-x (or 'till time). I think forcing your opponent to actually perform endless millings is stalling. You can come to ridicilous scores like 2-1-12 or something.
Anyway, back to the elves.
dont forget that in builds with Squee, you get 2 cards back per turn :D
Has anyone tryed vexing shusher in the maindeck ?
It seems to me it makes sure you resolve survival / natural order what makes the deck win. I am trying them as a two off maindeck. The deck has a lot of mana so it can easily pay one more.
Counterbalances decks are not as easy as it seems/claimed. Decks like nassif's build can be hard sometimes if you don't have 2 or more bombs.
Shusher helps a lot there.
Others problematic matchups are red/threshold which are answered with goyf+witness in sb.
Standstill with humility is also hard there I have witness+grip which is not always enough in sb.
Choke is not so good cause a lot of decks are playing trygon predator/grip and standstill can ignore it with basic plain/scrubland then EE it away or still cast humility/wrath/sword.
I played this deck at a local tourney (52 ppl) and ended up 17 or 18.
I'm not gonna write a whole report, just the main things:
my deck was the list that DI played at chicago, minus 2 vanquishers + 1 mirror entity and 1 messenger
SB was same except that i played thorn of amethyst instead of relic/graveyard hate.
my wins:
- RGB ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (first game was long after he started off with confidant, crusher and tarmogoyf in play ...)
- 43 lands (actually it was 32 lands, but do not know the name, more on this matchup later, cause i also lost to it)
- hmmm, others i do not remember immediately, but the most interesting things are the losses:
my losses (and draw):
- 43 lands (again, it was 32 lands) i gave up the first match after he had glacial chasm continually coming in play and killing of my creatures with barb ring ... game 2 i raced him, game 3 we went in time and drawed ... (it was one of the most boring matches I ever played ... if it wasn't for one point, i would have dropped)
in this matchup, progenitus was super, because untargetable by maze of ith ... BUT, glacial chasm is hell, i had no way to remove it or do anything about it (that is where relic or other graveyard comes in handy, but i was lacking it ;-))
- enchantress: game 1 i got him on 2, but he got his protection enchantment and could not take any more damage ... game 2 was even worse, turn 3 he dropped a moat ... i only got krosan grip after he already had his other protection enchantment and he went for the win
I am not sure what to do against this deck (besides racing), i think in this case ethersworn canonist would be superb
- survival deck with noble hierarch and spellstutter sprite (amongst others) game 1 i was mana screwed he drew noble and survival and killed me with a single spellstutter sprite (and 3 hierarchs) game 2 was better, but i did not go fast enough and he killed me with a spellstutter sprite and 4 hierarchs
I think the last one, I should have won if I had mulled more agressively, enchantress was almost an auto loss and the 43 land deck is really hard without graveyard hate.
In the whole tourney, i did not use my thorns (did not see any combo) and will switch them for relic (or other graveyard hate)
choke did not do what it is supposed to do, it can be GG, but you have to cast it at the right moment and mostly blue players will anticipate on it post side or just play more green (with noble hierarch), maybe i will drop the chokes and replace them with canonists, but not sure yet.
Sorry for the unstructured post ;-)
why doesnt anyone seem to use the glimpse version?
I'm not all that sure. I do know cards like Chalice, Counterbalance and general (free) couterspells hose this deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by lorddotm
For me personally, I've tested the Glimpse version and didn't like it. I play this deck mainly because playing a decent deck in which you can beat down with elves is way too tempting.
The Glinpse deck seems better against anything that's not Blue, and against Blue decks it can go aggro with Natural Order into Regal Force or Progenitus, and then 4 Jittes out of the board. Survival just seems weaker and less resiliant than Glimpse, maybe that's just me though. I tested with both lists and I was always a lit more afraid of Glimpse than Survival (I was piloting Fish). Glimpse seems to have an easier time swarming the board, something a Blue deck cannot handle at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atwa
then why do we see survival T8 and glimpse not?
Mostly cause I've never seen anyone play Glimpse....Quote:
Originally Posted by Waikiki
There is no reason to be hostile, I am only commenting on something I've noticed, if you don't agree that's cool, but that doesn't mean that you get to be an ass.
From looking at the decks on Deckcheck that play Glimpse, but not Survival, here's my impression:
Glimpse seems like it's a little faster, but more succeptible to hate (Chalices, Red Sweepers) since it runs more of the 1 drop Elves and doesn't run the 8x Lords that Survival Elves does.
Also, I see many mono green versions, which prevent you from using Mirror Entity or more importantly Gaddock Teeg/Absolute Law in the board.
To me, Survival of the Fittest is actually less weak and inconsistant. If you land a Survival, you can pretty much mine for whatever you want now. If you find yourself in an attrition war, the card advantage from Squee can win the game for you.
The Survival Elves variant also can run the Natural Order/Progenitus Combo, which from my experience, can steal a lot of Game 1's.
Just my observations and keep in mind, I really like the Survival version, myself. Being able to tutor up whatever combo/toolbox piece I might need is a real selling point for me.
I played this list at a small local tourney last weekend (trying to expand my horizons in terms of decks I'm comfortable playing) losing a single match all day. I got the list from thebirdman (who I assume got it from Di) and didn't change the maindeck a whole lot (but a newer sb was used).
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Natural Order
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Priest of Titania
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Champion
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Wren's Run Vanquisher
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Progenitus
2 Taiga
2 Savannah
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
6 Forest
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Glowrider
SB: 1 Caller of the Claw
relevant changes (not counting the sb anti-combo stuff):
main: -1 WRV, +1 Gaddock Teeg
sb: -3 choke, -1 kgrip, -1 empyrial archeangel, +3 jitte, +1 shusher
I played against Merfolk (twice), some sort of ritual combo, Faerie Stompy, Thrash, and CB Thresh with the loss coming in three games to Thrash after a lot of burn, counters, and some timely firespouts.
I expected quite a bit of Ritual Combo in the form of TES or ANT to show up given that I was loaning out a storm deck and knew other storm players in the area. As such, I cut a WRV for a maindeck Gaddock Teeg. I managed to Natural Order into it turn 2 against storm and managed to steal the matchup 2-0.
The Jittes replaced Chokes because I believed that I'd rather just be killing merfolk than making them rely on vial. I knew a lot of merfolk and other aggro was showing up, and jitte seemed like it would be just another bomb that Thresh/Merfolk/etc have to kill to beat me (the same as choke e0xcept that it actually puts them out of the game, not merely acting as a speedbump). I haven't seen a whole lot of discussion on Jitte, and while I don't know that Choke is the card that it wants to replace, the Jittes were absurd in the board through the event and in testing lead up to the event. Choke might be more relevant in metagames where big mana CB decks (like Nassif.dec) and Landstill exist, but it seemed that it's not necessary in my metagame.
The Shusher was probably a mistake. I like the idea of Shusher, and it actually worked really well the one time I found it, but replacing Krosan Grip was a huge problem. After playing some more games, especially the tournament games, I was often wishing for the ability to more easily find that second kgrip. Maybe it should be a 2-of replacing something else (maybe I'm devoting too much room to the combo matchup).
I cut the Angel from the board because she never really seemed to do anything. If Progenitus wasn't going to win me the game, Imperious Perfect making a million dudes, or Elvish Champion to make my guys unblockable was generally good enough to win. I don't think the Angel's necessary.
Nice mini-report, emidnl.
How is Tarmogoyf in this deck? I really dislike the antisynergy with the rest of the deck, but I guess there are some strong points. My list atm:
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Natural Order
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Quirion Ranger
2 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Priest of Titania
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Champion
1 Wren's Run Vanquisher
1 Harmonic Sliver (instead of Viridian Zealot)
1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Mirror Entity
1 Wood Elves
1 Progenitus
3 Taiga
3 Savannah
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
5 Forest
Changes:
-4 Tarmogoyf
-1 Gaddock Teeg/WRV
-1 WRV
-1 Forest
+1 Savannah
+1 Taiga
+1 Mirror Entity
+2 Wirewood Symbiote
+1 Q Ranger
+1 Wood Elves
In the little testing I did, I comboed out via Mirror Entity one third of the time, therefor earning its place.
Here's my list (very similar to Elf_Ascetic's list) I've been playing. I won a 14 man tournament on Sunday with it, going 5-1.
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Champion
4 Priest of Titania
2 Quirion Ranger
1 Sylvan Messenger
2 Mirror Entity
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Anger
1 Thornweald Archer
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Progenitus
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
2 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Harmonic Sliver
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Natural Order
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Savannah
2 Taiga
5 Forest
My Squee didn't come in the mail yet and noone had one I could borrow, so I was playing +1 Symbiote instead of Squee, but ideally, Squee would be in there. This was actually the first tournament I played where I stalled out a few times and actually wished I had Squee in the deck!
I beat Dragon Stompy, Rg Goblins (they actually outraced my T2 Progenitus one game!), Merfolk, Ubr Painter, UGw Thresh. Lost one match in the Swiss rounds to another Ugw Thresh deck.
I didn't run into any combo, which made me happy since in my experience this deck has a terrible matchup against combo, even with Thorns and Gaddock Teeg in the board.
I really love playing the deck though because of the ability to aggro, combo, fetch whatever answers you need.
Harmonic Sliver (I was testing it instead of Zealot) was great. His 3 CMC makes it harder for CB to hit and since most of the time you're immediately popping your Zealot anyways, Harmonic Sliver actually costs less mana to use, plus nets you a guy. Another bonus my friend pointed out to me is that under Engineered Plague, the Sliver also survives from not being an Elf.
Wren's Run Packmaster and Thornweald Archer would probably be the next to go for me, but I'd probably keep the Archer around if I saw more Tombstalkers. Packmaster has just been unimpressive for me because I'm usually pitching it or just grabbing the Mirror Entity combo instead of it.
The Sylvan Messenger has been meh as well, but I like the 1 of just in case I need immediate card draw shenanigans with Symbiote instead of incremental draw with Squee. He does seem like a win-more card though.
I disliked Sylvan Messenger because of the low elfcount. Basicly it says: draw 2 Elves, 3 if your lucky, and 1 if not. When I needed more creatures for survival, I couldn't rely on it, like goblins can rely on their ringleader.
Harmonic Sliver is great because it's a sliver, therefor killing Engineered Plague. Zealot cannot do that. It's 3CC for CB is better too.
I used WR-PM several times to give me more (hehe, a zillion more) creatures. I had the Entity - Priest - Symbiote loop but no more creatures to survival away, while he had 6 goblins.
How is Birchlore Rangers? I use Wood Elves, because that one can give me haste as well, but it's a really cluncky card when drawn.
Ever gotten manascrewed with "only" 15 lands?
Tarmogoyf was really good for me. He helped avoid most of the mass removal that was sent my way, provided a quick survival pseudo-combo (finding 2-3 hasty goyfs was a decent backup plan) that avoided engineered plague, and proved to be an efficient as both a bomb after a countered threat and a large enough threat to act as bait (letting me resolve Natural Order or Survival). I don't think I could consider playing a build of the deck without at least 3 Tarmogoyf in it, and the only reason I'd cut the 4th would be to try out something like WRPackmaster.
When I fought Goblins, although they sometimes had more creatures than me, they were also playing Rg, so I'd just grab a Champion and Forestwalk over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elf_Ascetic
I play in a meta that sees Moons and Wastelands running around, so I've liked the Birchlore to give me a source of white mana when I'm Savannahless. Also, Birchlore has a bit of nice synergy with Imperious Perfects (make some tokens, tap them for more mana). Wood Elves is nice for the ability to grab a Taiga, but I've really hated that 3 mana cost.
Funny you should mention being mana screwed. I'm running 16 lands, but since I have all those 1 drops (7 mana elves, 2 Quirion Ranger) and 4 ESG, as long as I have 1 land and one of the 1 drop elves (Quirion Ranger gets you 2 mana on turn 2 off of a single land), I actually very rarely have run into mana problems.
The one match I lost involved me mulliganing down to 4 (after seeing no 1 mana elves and I swear I got the same terrible hand twice of seeing Packmaster, Progenitus, Natural Order, Natural Order) with no lands, then next game having to mulligan down to 5.
Other than that game though, I have rarely gotten mana screwed (in fact, I find myself oddly mana flooded more than mana screwed).
Hi all! I've recently fall in love with Survival of the Fittest. The synergy it got with elves is incredible. I don't pretend my build is better than the other ones cause there's a lot of them. I got kicked out of the New and Developmental Decks Forum and told to come here.
I've seen a couple version of this deck on deckcheck.net but I really don't like them. So to begin here's my list:
Land (18)
6 x Forest
4 x Taiga
4 x Windswept Heath
4 x Wooded Foothills
Combo (11)
1 x Empyrial Archangel
1 x Progenitus
1 x Norwood Priestess
4 x Natural Order
4 x Survival of the Fittest
Green Creatures (29)
1 x Caller of the Claw
3 x Elvish Champion
4 x Imperious Perfect
4 x Fyndhorn Elves
4 x Llanowar Elves
4 x Priest of Titania
2 x Quirion Ranger
1 x Sylvan Messenger
1 x Wickerbough Elder
1 x Wirewood Symbiote
1 x Wood Elves
3 x Wren's Run Vanquisher
Red Creatures (2)
1 x Anger
1 x Squee, Goblin Nabob
Sideboard (Totally a meta call)
4 x Thorn of Amethyst
3 x Tormod's Crypt
2 x Umezawa's Jitte
4 x Krosan Grip
1 x Vexing Shusher
1 x Magus of the Moon
Natural Order + Progenitus or Empyrial Archangel: Nothing to add here
Norwood Priestess: Backup plan when you're stuck with Progenitus or Empyrial Archangel in your hand. Also work very well if you don't have Natural Order in your hand. Great synergy with the "untap elves" creatures too.
With Survival of the Fittess in play and the Norwood Priestess, it's often only an easy math problem to get Progenitus AND Empyrial Archangel in play in the same turn. I know this seem a little overkill but I'm sure that Natural Order players around here lost a couple games even with a Progenitus in play. This is a good way to stop your opponent dead in it's track.
Now your wondering why I didn't pick Elvish Piper. Well I guest it work. Even with his ability to throw creature at instant speed. The only thing is the cost of his activation. Norwood Priestess got a cc of 2GG and the Piper 3G + G per activation. So I prefer to keep my mana for Survival.
Wickerbough Elder: I prefer this over the Viridian Zealot or Harmonic Sliver because it got a 4/4 body (after his activation). Go over Trinisphere and Chalice easily.
Sylvan Messenger: Only one you say?! Well yeah. I never enjoy to draw 2 copy of it. Sometimes when I need card draw I'll just go fetch it with survival.
Wood Elves: In case they wasteland your Taiga and you got anger in the graveyard. It's a quick and good solution.
Caller of the Claw This is also a metagame call.
Any suggestion are welcomed.
Welcome to the thread, Evilfred.
Do you ever find that you have problems protecting the Norwood Priestess or that she's too slow?
Just curious, but how do you deal with red sweepers/removal since you're not playing white (and can't play Absolute Law in the board)?
I feel the white splash makes the deck overall stronger because it gives you access to Absolute Law/Teeg in the board and Mirror Entity/Harmonic Sliver in the main as well. The Mirror Entity combo gives you just another way to win if you can't Lord or Progenitus your way to victory.
I've been a fan of Harmonic Sliver in testing since he actually costs you less mana than the Zealot. Wickerbough Elder just seems... slow to me? He costs you 3GG to do the same thing as Harmonic Sliver. Sure he's got a bigger body, but have you found that to really be that useful? Whenever I Survival for Harmonic, it's when I want to immediately bust an enchantment/artifact that's giving me problems.
@ Evilfred list
It's a good starting point, but there's some issues I have with it:
Norwood Priestess is cute, but unnecessary. A 4cc 1/1 isn't going to make the cut when it is incredibly situational. If you have Survival, then that play is incredibly win-more. If you don't, then you have to somehow manage to have both Priestess and Progenitus, both singletons, in hand. The odds of that happening are incredibly slim and not worth the slot. However, I will give you the benefit of the doubt that it at least does dodge Counterbalance and allows you to circumvent that, but at that point you're better off just killing it rather than working around it.
The single Sylvan Messenger is very weak too. You run 18 lands, 4 Survival, 4 Natural Order, Squee, Anger, Progenitus, Angel, Symbiote, and Wickerbough Elder. That's 32 cards, more than half of the deck. Even though it's a singleton, it's there as a card advantage engine, but you will almost never be able to get more than 2 elves with it. It's far too inconsistent to really justify running. At that point, you can also cut Wirewood Symbiote as well.
You run 4 Taiga and 8 fetchlands, so you shouldn't ever have an issue finding a red source for Anger, even if they Wasteland the first one. That said, Wood Elves isn't necessary. Unless you're running 3cc+ with needs to find colors, such as needing Savannah to cast Mirror Entity, Wood Elves is slow and a waste of a slot.
I've been unhappy with Viridian Zealot getting hit by Counterbalance so I've looked for other options, including Wickerbough Elder. He's just too slow. It isn't just Counterbalance that's a problem, but other stuff like Dreadnought, Jitte, Pernicious Deed, etc. Elder is too slow to deal with them in a reasonable amount of time, so the best solution is Harmonic Sliver. I really dislike Sliver because of it's reliance on white and weak body, but it's the best card we have to handle stuff.
On the Tarmogoyf issue, it's like a necessary evil. A lot of times when it's in the deck is garbage compared to the rest of my board, but then sometimes it's gold. Then I end up cutting it to improve synergy with the deck, and I run into 100 situations where I need it. It's just a bit difficult to find room for it, but it depends on how you build the deck now. My own list has changed a bit over the last month to adapt to some of the problems I've had. I won't post it right now as it isn't anything concrete, but I can at least mention it's worth having Mastcore in the deck somewhere between the maindeck and sideboard. At Chicago I was really craving a removal card and Wren's Run Vanquisher didn't really accomplish that, and Masticore is exactly the card the deck wants.
After some testing with and without goyfs, I now play 3 in my deck, sigh...
I admit that the Norwood Priestess is situational. So here's the pros and cons:Quote:
Originally Posted by Di
PROS:
- Can't counter creatures played via the Priestess. (Except with Stifle)
- It's the fifth Natural Order that you can fetch with Survival.
- The "Untaping Creatures" allow you to untap it to maximise her potencial.
- When you have Survival in play and the Norwood Priestess the cost to get Progenitus and the Archangel in play is GG plus 2 creatures to be discarded.
- Save you mana to play your other elves.
CONS:
- It's a 1/1 for 2GG
- Run in the deck as a singleton
You're totally right about the Sylvan Messenger, I'd rather play 3 tarmogoyf instead. The Wirewood Symbiote is too good (to my taste) to be cut out. I'll keep playtesting to see if it's worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Di
Done, gone!Quote:
Originally Posted by Di
Harmonic Sliver is better. Your right again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Di
I think I'll put the Masticore in the sideboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Di
*EDIT*
Yeah, after playtesting Norwood Priestess suck a little. I never end up going for her with survival. I reread the whole tread (most of it since Natural Order was included in the deck) and revamped my deck. ESG and Packmaster are going in. I left the Norwood Priestess discution for posterity.
NEW AND UPDATED LIST 04-23-2009
Lands (18)
2 x Savannah
2 x Taiga
4 x Windswept Heath
6 x Forest
4 x Wooded Foothills
NO Combo (5)
1 x Progenitus
4 x Natural Order
Survival Engine (6)
4 x Survival of the Fittest
1 x Anger
1 x Squee, Goblin Nabob
Other Creatures (6)
1 x Mirror Entity
1 x Harmonic Sliver
1 x Wirewood Symbiote
3 x Tarmogoyf
Elves (25)
4 x Elvish Spirit Guide
3 x Elvish Champion
4 x Fyndhorn Elves
4 x Imperious Perfect
3 x Llanowar Elves
4 x Priest of Titania
2 x Quirion Ranger
1 x Wren's Run Packmaster
Sideboard (15)
2 x Tormod's Crypt
1 x Caller of the Claw
4 x Krosan Grip
3 x Gaddock Teeg
3 x Absolute Law
1 x Masticore
1 x Vexing Shusher
If your running the version with natural order, and not mirror entity, what do all of you think about symbiote? Is it still a necessary inclusion in the deck even though its not an elf?
If you're not playing Mirror Entity, Symbiote gets cut, imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by beastman
The only reasons for Wirewood Symbiote's inclusion is either for Mirror Entity, Sylvan Messenger (and then again, that's really only if you run multiples) and maybe if you're looking to heavily abuse 187 creatures, which we really don't have any to abuse. Otherwise, it's almost strictly inferior to Quirion Ranger. The fact it isn't an elf really hurts when trying to ramp up mana in the early game. The deck has been rising with non-elf cards as of late in order to adapt to hate and other issues, and it's turning into a problem with the deck's synergy and consistency. It's important we still try to maximize the number of elves to take full advantage of Priest and lords, and Symbiote doesn't do enough without another supplemental combo piece to be worth running. If you really insist on running a Symbiote then I think Mirror Entity needs to be included, not only for the sake of the combo, but because Mirror Entity will at least make your other creatures elves and help you create synergy.Quote:
Originally Posted by beastman
I'm going to test Qasali Pridemage in my list. Zealot, although an Elf, does a very bad job at it's prime reason to be played (getting rid of Plague), and I hate the fact that with Harmonic Sliver you need to hold back the card until a Plague hit's play.
I know it's the same with Grip, but when a Plague get's rid of your mana elves, I'd rather spend 2 turns with Pridemage then waiting until my 3th landdrop makes playing Sliver possible.
It still need some testing, but at the moment I'm feeling Pridemage is better than both Zealot and Sliver.
EDIT: Wow, this thing also has exalted? I didn't notice that :) Now I definatly want to play Pridemage. Winning you Goyf-wars and stuff is a very good thing. Granted, in a deck like elves you won't use Exalted a lot, but it's nice to have it available for you when you need it.
Pounds for Pounds I think Qasali Pridemage is better. A 2/2 body that cost GW instead of a 1/1 for 1GW.
Plus it got Exalted. I'm not sure when we are going to need this (Tarmo war) but it's good to know it's there. The fact that you can wait to use his ability is a plus I think. Holding Mishra's Factory at bay is useful sometime! That's why I liked the Wickerbough Elder.
*EDIT*
One flaw I just noticed, Chalice @ 2 hurt the deck badly and we usually use the Harmonic Sliver against that since it got a converted mana cost of 3. No Dragon Stompy player (unless he's in deep shit) is gonna cast a chalice @ 3. There's Counterbalance, Spell Snare (He's played more and more those days) and Stiffle to name a few card that can easily deal with the Qasali Pridemage.
*EDIT 2*
I updated my list in my previous post.
Qasali Pridemage is amazing and probably the best utility creature of that type. However, I see Counterbalance as a bigger problem than Engineered Plague. Plague can be countered by 8 lords so it isn't as huge of a problem, but Counterbalance can hit everything. At 2cc, Pridemage doesn't handle that or Chalice at 2 while well as Harmonic Sliver does, so I can't really justify running it.
I agree with the assessment that at least for Legacy, Pridemage isn't as good as Harmonic Sliver (although he's far far superior to Viridian Zealot).
The Harmonic's 3 CC actually is a benefit, making it considerably better at getting through CB than the 2CC of Zealot/Pridemage.
For some reason counterbalance never seemed that scary. We already play numerous 1 cc creatures which we can easily grow to scary proportions with 8 Lords and a Packmaster, backed up with Order. Not to rule out the Forestwalk Champion grants us against almost every deck playing Counterbalance.
I do however see your point.
I'm going to test it at least and we'll see what happens then.
The issue isn't the fact that we have plenty of lords, Natural Order, and Packmaster to get around Counterbalance; that's true, and very good against it. However, the issue is actually what you mention as an alleged benefit: numerous 1cc creatures. In order to cast all those aforementioned bombs, you need a lot of mana on the table, which comes from those 1-2cc mana guys. If you don't stick a few of them before Counterbalance comes down it is incredibly hard to win through it, as lords have trouble racing Goyfs, and drawing mana guys after CB/top is in play can almost be dead draws given they won't resolve.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atwa
Given our curve is rounded gives us game against it, but it's still a huge problem.
I love this deck so damn much. Now that thats out of the way, I have to bring up some concerns I have noticed lately. The most prominent concern is the severe lack of removal. I'm not sure what there is to do about this, but I wanted to know if anyone had any ideas.
The second concern is combo. I am currently splashing a bit of white for gaddock teeg, and he is really not thrilling me.
what else is there, and what are you guys doing about these problems?
I've been playing Flametongue Kavu at 3x for removal. Wren's Run Vanquisher helps, but not against things that aren't attacking. It's been nice to be able to Survival for removal, but this basically means we can't play Messenger.Quote:
Originally Posted by beastman
I completely forgot about vanquisher! That guy is amazing. He's like opening a can of goyf-b-gone!
Why would you want removal? I can't think of a creatures that could be standing in the way between your little green men and your opponent.
I tackled combo with Gaddock Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist on the sideboard, ain't that great but better then nothing.
*EDIT: Who, you guys are fast. I see Goyf is being seen as a probleem. I fail to see why: You have Elvish Champion, and Progenitus that just waves to goyf and hits your opponent in the face. If you're afraid to attack without Forestwalk, I suggest you try Symbiote some more. Just bounce the blocked Elf, untap a creature, play elf, and you're ready to go.. An attacking goyf is with 4 Perfects and some Symbiotes also no problem. Plus 3 Goyfs of your own, of course.
*EDIT #2: Ok, You maybe want to remove Goblin Sharpshooter, SGC or Lackey. You can opt for a single removalcard in your survivaltoolbox (Kavu was named, I think Fire Imp can be taken too), or you can run 3-4 StP.
I rather play Wren's Run Packmaster for his ability to pump out Deathtouch creature at will. It's just as easy as to get a Vanquisher with survival and he leave you with open slots in the deck, plus he's a 5/5 for 4 mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by beastman
I also put Masticore in the sideboard for spot removal. She's doing a great job!
Because other aggro decks still have the ability to race you and potentially out-man you, or often times it isn't in your benefit to play hyper-aggressive because they can hold their own and you need to wait, giving them even more time to find answers. For instance in Chicago I lost to Affinity, a good matchup, because he was able to race me. Granted he had the absolute godhand in game 1 and 3, but I had a very good hand each game and he was still able to kill me. Had I had access to more creature removal, I would've been fine. Goblins can also occasionally be a problem if they're able to have a turn 1 Lackey on the play and be able to Wierding/Fanatic your first creature.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elf_Ascetic
My own removal suite just has Masticore and Wren's Run Vanquisher in the maindeck (and I guess Packmaster applies as well). Masticore is the best card we have because it's capable of killing anything, including a Dreadnought, in this deck. It also completely wipes out other aggro hordes in 1-2 turns. FTK is also a fine choice but I dislike not being able to kill Goyfs and Tombstalkers. Otherwise, the only other options we really are limited to Duplicant, Triskelion, Fire Imp, Goblin Sharpshooter, etc. If it's that big of an issue then you can still add a Bayou and run a Shriekmaw, but I'm wary to add another color into the deck.