[Deck] Imperial Painter

HI

Have been playing with this deck for a long time, I never posted but read the forum a few time, I have a few questions

1. How do you beat the burn deck? UR ou R? Is it possible or everyone has a bad match up and that it, the only momment were I was able to beat them was with the white splash and warth in the bord.

2. I do not get why people are only running 2-3 fetch, I always run like 6-7, It help to look for better cards with the tops.

3. How many moon should I run, I usuly run around 6 (3 magus, 3 blood), Agains Rug I never cast them turn one, I always want to be able to pay for daze what are your tought on that.

4. Why torn of amethyste over the sphere or resistance since the sphere get elfe.

5. How is revoker better then Grim and welder in your metha,

I have a few more but that it for now

No offense man, but it doesn't seem that you've been playing this deck for a while.

More on the Burn question:

It's a bad match up. But all the decks on the OP are equipped to win the match up. You definitely have to play the control, and winning usually consists of staying alive long enough to combo them out. If they like to burn your 1/1's and 2/2's then consider it like playing a slew of Healing Salves. If you know a good Burn player then I'd suggest sitting down to a nice session of play testing with them.

Comb through the OP, this matchup is addressed from three different proponents' perspective.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JO_MTG

HI

Have been playing with this deck for a long time, I never posted but read the forum a few time, I have a few questions

1. How do you beat the burn deck? UR ou R? Is it possible or everyone has a bad match up and that it, the only momment were I was able to beat them was with the white splash and warth in the bord.

2. I do not get why people are only running 2-3 fetch, I always run like 6-7, It help to look for better cards with the tops.

3. How many moon should I run, I usuly run around 6 (3 magus, 3 blood), Agains Rug I never cast them turn one, I always want to be able to pay for daze what are your tought on that.

4. Why torn of amethyste over the sphere or resistance since the sphere get elfe.

5. How is revoker better then Grim and welder in your metha,

I have a few more but that it for now

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I agree with Jandax here. If you have been reading here you should know the answer to most of these questions.

1) read my summary opening page

2) So you have 6-7 fetches, 7-8 sol lands, maybe great furnace? So that leaves you with like 4-ish mountains? Pretty greedy and life loss adds up.

3) There is no reason to run less than 4 blood moons. If you want 6 moons, 4 bm-2 mag is the right split. Rug you should not leave Magus in postboard.

4) thorn does not stop painters, recruiters etc. Sphere would be overkill and elves can probably still generate enough mana after a few turns. Maybe someone else can weigh in since I have never liked thorn that much.

5) grim lavamancer? Why not another Jaya in that case since she handles more issues. Revoker stops Sneak attack, Griselbrand, so many unfair things etc. the list goes on and on. Welder rescues killed artifacts and increases synergy. Lavamancer sits there looking like a bitch.

Thanks a lot for your answers, I,ll post my thought on your comments to encourage discutions

Sorry english is my second language so I might have difficulty explaining my point, I want to work on getting this deck better and understanding our different card choice.

There is the metha at my local shop
1-3 RUG
2-3 BUG
2 Stone blade
1 ELFE
2 Goblin
1 Burn
1 UR Burn
1 ww
1 dredge
1 Reanimator (Tin FIn with Emrakul)
1 UW Counter top
1 Storm somethime

I rarely see Emrakul exept in the reanimator deck


1) read my summary opening pag. Was done a long time Ago and more recently

2) So you have 6-7 fetches, 7-8 sol lands, maybe great furnace? So that leaves you with like 4-ish mountains? Pretty greedy and life loss adds up. Yes exactly 4 basic, I do not play mox... How is it gready to have only 4 mountain ? When do you need more then that, and most of the time in the end game your fetch are mountain under the blood moon

3) There is no reason to run less than 4 blood moons. If you want 6 moons, 4 bm-2 mag is the right split. Rug you should not leave Magus in postboard. Yes there a reason the second blood moon is completly dead, the second magus attack, But I think your right I guess I should have enought time to find what I need to kill my oponent befor they get out of the lock and the moon lock the RUG player

4) thorn does not stop painters, recruiters etc. Sphere would be overkill and elves can probably still generate enough mana after a few turns. Maybe someone else can weigh in since I have never liked thorn that much. What is your sidebord option, for storm and elfe

5) grim lavamancer? Why not another Jaya in that case since she handles more issues. Revoker stops Sneak attack, Griselbrand, so many unfair things etc. the list goes on and on. Welder rescues killed artifacts and increases synergy. Lavamancer sits there looking like a bitch.

Lavalanver come online befor it,s to late,
- kill Deathrithe
- Kill elfe
- Kill stoneforge Befor they drop the equipment
-Also shrink GOyf

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JO_MTG

Thanks a lot for your answers, I,ll post my thought on your comments to encourage discutions

Sorry english is my second language so I might have difficulty explaining my point, I want to work on getting this deck better and understanding our different card choice.

There is the metha at my local shop
1-3 RUG
2-3 BUG
2 Stone blade
1 ELFE
2 Goblin
1 Burn
1 UR Burn
1 ww
1 dredge
1 Reanimator (Tin FIn with Emrakul)
1 UW Counter top
1 Storm somethime

I rarely see Emrakul exept in the reanimator deck


1) read my summary opening pag. Was done a long time Ago and more recently

2) So you have 6-7 fetches, 7-8 sol lands, maybe great furnace? So that leaves you with like 4-ish mountains? Pretty greedy and life loss adds up. Yes exactly 4 basic, I do not play mox... How is it gready to have only 4 mountain ? When do you need more then that, and most of the time in the end game your fetch are mountain under the blood moon

3) There is no reason to run less than 4 blood moons. If you want 6 moons, 4 bm-2 mag is the right split. Rug you should not leave Magus in postboard. Yes there a reason the second blood moon is completly dead, the second magus attack, But I think your right I guess I should have enought time to find what I need to kill my oponent befor they get out of the lock and the moon lock the RUG player

4) thorn does not stop painters, recruiters etc. Sphere would be overkill and elves can probably still generate enough mana after a few turns. Maybe someone else can weigh in since I have never liked thorn that much. What is your sidebord option, for storm and elfe

5) grim lavamancer? Why not another Jaya in that case since she handles more issues. Revoker stops Sneak attack, Griselbrand, so many unfair things etc. the list goes on and on. Welder rescues killed artifacts and increases synergy. Lavamancer sits there looking like a bitch.

Lavalanver come online befor it,s to late,
- kill Deathrithe
- Kill elfe
- Kill stoneforge Befor they drop the equipment
-Also shrink GOyf

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I'll take a stab at this

If your local meta consists of two or three burn decks, why really worry? Serious question. I'd focus more on being able to handle the rest of the field adequately. Burn is winnable, but not much fun.

1) Keep reading it. Over and over. Not saying you haven't, but it appears you haven't absorbed much of the important info on the front page, so I'd keep at it.

2)You need to play at least two Mox. More to follow. It's not greedy to have 4 basics, it's greedy to have more than four fetchlands. Life loss matters, it's the only way you're staying alive.

3)Multiple Moons are dead, but not if you have Mox in your list. That's one of the interactions you miss. Moxes turn dead cards into resources. Plus, Magus gets killed by tons of removal in all those decks you run. How many decks in your meta can easily remove a resolved Blood Moon (Enchantment)?

4) Thorns help slow down Storm enough for iPainter to do its thing. Ensnaring Bridge helps stop hoards of elves.

5)Jaya does all that and with a much better interaction with parts of your deck than Lavaman. If you don't know how nuts Jaya is, you're holding Lavaman on a way high standard. too high.

Look. You mean well. And please take this as objective advice, not a personal attack:

Trust the OP. Those three guys know what they're doing and you are trying to reinvent the wheel. There are three lists on the OP, one controlly, one Welder, and one generic, all proven, all tuned. Choose one that suits your style of play and copy it exactly. Play a few tournaments with that list, and once you begin to realize what the deck is trying to do, you'll realize your personal card choices discussed now are suboptimal and you're switching things out based on pride and ignorance (again, not attacking you, you need to get over this hump before you can play the deck well)

Hope this helps, and keep asking questions. It's the only way to get better

Easy guys he has valid questions.

1. Burn is rough. I think jack has had more success than me but even against terrible players I am probably below 30 percent. White splash would help for sure. It has gotten better after I started using Rest in Peace and Helm of Obediance as it is a combo they can't stop. The up side of that is rest in Peace is the best at what it does and it has so many applications that you are only wasting one sideboard slot to help you out. Somehing else to try is figure of destiny. He has fallen out of favor recently but he was also strong when run as a three of against burn. He can get huge, curves beautifully with the deck and can require multiple cards to kill. And that is the key, think of burn as a shitty combo deck played by bad players. You want to slow down it's critical turn( I imagine it's still someplace around turn 4) while putting the combo together in your hand and make mana. If you are on white Hollywood fucked around with Radiant Dragoons for a while in the match up. I am old and forgetful anymore so I don't remember the details but it's worth a look.

I agree people should run more fetches. For me I run 2 plateau and so I run five fetch land( onslaught of course) and really like it. I run 19 total lands hough which is more than Jack and some other guys. I also have got a 61 card deck these days. I'm overall really happy with the mana although sometimes you get burned but that is the cost of a sol land mana base.

Sorry for the double post but my phone is being lamer than a pair of jorts.

I have never found Grim Lavarmancer, I assume that is what you mean rather than Grim Tutor or Grim Monolith. We don't run enough instants to make him usable more than twice really. It happens sometimes but I found not worth he effort. If you don want an extra Jaya bc the card disadvantage is noteworthy if not acceptable try spinal villain. He pops a bunch of shit you care about and becomes awesome with painter.

I'm staying out of the thorn debate as most people know my thoughts. I do hink you shouldn't waste your time with it in a white splash. Use the fact that you are faster and more consistent on the combo plan to your advantage. Might as well maximize the advantage of the build.

And about the moons. I think anything less than six is wrong. I also think anything less than 4 blood moons is wrong. The fact you have to remember, if you played the first Blood Moon correctly and effectively locked them out of mana the one dead card in your hand is ok bc they have four or more. It was sort of like old chalice decks. Once you dropped one the virtual card advantage could be huge that you can handle the dead draws of addition pieces.

Hope this helps

Seth

Question for the floor:

I saw a deck the other day, splashed blue for Trinket Mage. I like the idea but I would rather not splash blue. What do people think about going white for cards like Enlightened Tutor?

@Jo MTG

Sorry man, Seth is right. I was a little hostile but it was mainly because the same questions keep popping up from new players.

Looking at your meta it is certainly understandable why you favor Lavamancer over Welder or Revoker. You have massive amounts of Burn/cheap creature spells in your meta and basically no Show and Tell, discard, planeswalkers, or storm . In the overall metagame I wholeheartedly say Lavamancer is wrong since discard is much more prevalent than a million burn players. And I guess that is the purpose of your high fetchland count. When I said it was greedy running that many, I didn't really mean because you were going to run out of mountains. More along the lines of Fetch damage and Tomb damage really really adds up fast. It looks like it wouldn't be a big deal, but so many times you just take a huge attack without blockers and then combo at 1 or 2 life. Not to mention getting fetches stifled sucks especially in this deck since you want to curve to 3 and 4 mana turns 2 and 3. In your meta I think running 4 ensnaring Bridge mainboard is the stone cold nuts.

For your question about storm, I use Leyline of Sanctity not because it is the best hate card, but because it helps much more against bad matchups like Burn, Belcher, and Black Discard. It's an added benefit that it is a major nuisance to storm. If I had unlimited sideboard space I would play thorns and Trinispheres, but I can't. I also run a Martyr of Ashes to deal with Empty the Warrens tokens. Martyr also applies to Zoo, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, and Tribal (not merfolk). So this is also another go-to card against Elves to clear their board, which answers your other question. Comboing off is still the number one plan since all the good elves lists don't run Emrakul anymore.

@Dicebox

I believe Drew tried a singleton Trinket Mage and discussed it in the old thread. He tweaked it so he ran 4 lotus petals and fewer SSG and a few volcs. Seth is the expert on splashing, especially enlightened tutor so I'll let him answer whatever questions you have.



Also I know I asked it already but we all got sidetracked. Anyone ever used Siege-Gang Commander? The only reason I am even considering him is because I already have 3 welders to pair him with.

So the trinket Mage idea was really strong about three years ago. Before Jace and Stoneforge and the like the 2/2 body mattered. And his utility to grab things like SDT, grindstone, and EE could really punish tempo decks and rock style decks. But with delver, knights, and deathrite shamen his value is lower. Yes he gives card advantage and utility but at a substantial cost of tempo. The format as a whole has actually speed up even though cards like daze have been pushed to the periphery. In that setting the mana instability is not offset by his strengths. E tutor is basically better, especially since counterbalance isn't played much. It gets even more cards, smaller loss of tempo and traditional card advantage continues to become less important as the game advances. (Note that last statement is most applicable for Legacy, in Vintage A Recall is still a top 3 card). Now metas can change so it is possible that Trinket Mage may be good again.

About Chrome Mox, I really dislike the card anymore. It is strongest in all in moon hands which to be honest you shouldnt always keep. Maybe In Non splash lists the speed is worth the risk. It is also better as you maximize welder. I have been using Lotus petal and find it to be amazing. I highly suggest everyone try that card out. It is even stronger in splash lists. The problem with Chrome Mox is that most often you don't want to pitch your gas to it. And that often leaves blasts and SSG. Which ironically os the wrong cards most of the time to pitch to it. Not to mention it make mulling harder.

Seth

So are you saying that Chrome Mox in general is bad? I know exactly what you mean about pitching business to Mox, but indeed in a mono-red build it's necessary to power stuff out.

What about a Lotus Petal/Mox split? From my experience, exactly one Mox a match is probably good (roughly 30 tourney matches and lots of play testing against valid decks with decent players).

And again I wasn't trying to be hard on JO MTG, I just wanted to drive home points; these questions have already have been asked and answered, he needs to be open minded and accept known lists before he goes and tries to reinvent the wheel. In the end it's going to save time and hassel and it'll show him what is in the deck and better yet, why it's there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jandax

So are you saying that Chrome Mox in general is bad? I know exactly what you mean about pitching business to Mox, but indeed in a mono-red build it's necessary to power stuff out.

What about a Lotus Petal/Mox split? From my experience, exactly one Mox a match is probably good (roughly 30 tourney matches and lots of play testing against valid decks with decent players).

And again I wasn't trying to be hard on JO MTG, I just wanted to drive home points; these questions have already have been asked and answered, he needs to be open minded and accept known lists before he goes and tries to reinvent the wheel. In the end it's going to save time and hassel and it'll show him what is in the deck and better yet, why it's there.

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Jandax I've try over the last 2-3 years different combination of that deck and played in over 20 tournement and test it, IVe got some good finish, unfortunatly I do not live in the United States so my fnish didn't get put online (NO SCG, NO LEGACY GP) of course there all smaller tournement. Do not assume I have rejected the establish list without tring it. And from what I have seem ther not relly an establish list,since most player that posted ther list in the last few page have different list, if ther a consensus on one I will be happy to try it.


I have try version similar to the one your playing (rarely went higher then 3 looting),
Version withe chrome mox up to recently and even LED long time ago, I have try the petal, I loved it in the white version but other then that ... I'm not shure since after a turn 1 moon you find yourself one 1 mana in a deck that need 3, 2 if you land drop, and if your spell got counter you are most likely behind on cards and on bord, a pretty good mixt to get kill (including the fact that they got 1-2 turn to drop a treat).
the mox is similar problem but even worst since you are now down 2 extra cards

I find myself playing 20 lands, instead of 18 like lots of list does (and my initial list did), it start a little slower but it is more consistent in the long run, your risque is to get them to fech an extra basic and to be able to play. But they are probably in very bad shape any way.


I have also try the siege gang commander a long time ago, the problem was is casting cost 5 is a lot even in that deck, and he dosen't beet that well, for the beating job try Kragan, if you want to block over multiple turn just chain the recruiter, and has pointed out earlier to shoot creature Jaya is the Queen.


I'm glad that some other player like the higher fetch count, the life lost dosn't mather that much in my experience (unless it is burn) but has most said already those are awfull match up any way.

The 4 moon missing from my list was definitively a mistake, I do not remimber when I did that change but it wont happen again.

I'm still unshure between grim, revoker and second welder.

Thanks for the leyline idea, I will try that soon.

@JO

I didn't assume you were avoiding established lists. It's just that the questions you asked and the card choices you were putting forth made it seem to me (and others apparently) that you were putting the cart before the horse. You also didn't mention your experience in any depth, so sorry if I sounded crass ;) It really did come from a good place

About the OP: The three guys' lists (seth, drew and kapn) are all different variations of the deck. Everyone has their own style and these three lists can cater to just about every (Control, combo and aggro) style one favors.

Why don't you post your 75 and we can go through it? It's one thing to ask questions about cards, but another to ask about the list in which they fit and why they are better than other options, ya know?

I just ordered stompy the other day. Turned out the only thing I was missing to make this was Imp and Grindstone. So lets say my bank is a touch lighter but now if I mix and match my cards I have a new deck. Now while I was looking at this I came to the belief that adding white would suit my play style. But as I have yet to play this deck other than a few online games I have no real experience to base my ideas from. So I thought I would post what I have come up with here and see if anyone can see any flaws I have missed.


Creatures:
2 Goblin Welder
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Magus of the Moon
4 Painter's Servant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Art:
4 Grindstone
1 Lotus Petal
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Blood Moon

Spells/Enchant:
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Blood Moon
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast

Land
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Arid Mesa
4 City of Traitors
5 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Plateau
3 Scalding Tarn


Sideboard
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Rest in Peace
2 Red Elemental Blast


The card that sells me most on this build is Thalia. I use her in my goblin build and I find her to be very strong. The card I am least sold on is Leonin due to his two white cast. The deck has another issue in that by adding so many fetches I can see Tomb hurting more than it should. I think it needs tweaking but the mix of Thalia and Enlightened make me intrigued. I want to try this. What do you all think?

Edit: Cards I like in the sideboard
Leonin Abunas
Ethersworn Canonist
Judge's Familiar
Devout Harpist

Mostly Abunas and Canonist jump at me.

Two red is sometimes hard enough to come up. Two white seems nigh impossible. If you want both destroy target artifact AND enchantment you could try Devout Witness for a jaya like effect, Duergar Hedge-Mage for a Manic Vandal like effect, or Reliquary Monk for something different.

Chrome Mox vs Lotus Petal

I feel this is an apt summary: Chrome Mox is much better if your game plan involves dropping early moons, but introduces more variance into the deck. When Chrome Mox is good, it is better than lotus petal. When Chrome Mox is bad, it is worse than lotus petal. Simple as that. Drew also had a nice line in the op: Petal is essentially a 5th SSG. Many have opted for increased consistency over more explosive turns 1 and 2 with Chrome Mox. It is not incorrect to run Chrome Mox. Your build and play style just need to utilize it.

@jandax- I have moved away from the Chrome Mox but it def still has a place in the deck. A one of basically exactly what you want bc you either want it with a sol land or not at all. With 3 welders the extra moment in the deck will start to have value. I don't run three welders right now. The strongest card in the deck is Blood Moon, then Goblin Welder is a very close second. He is so strong that adding a few cards to maximize his potential is justified I think if you want to go that way. Jack loves him and rightfully so. He is a must kill creature for what he represents.

@Dice- I would cut the plains, add a Plateau, and then cut two fetches. Add in the 4th Ancient Tomb and a great furnace. I would also recommend having another Blood Moon.

Seth

There my actual list (for now, thanks for your recommandation and discution)

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
6 Red Fetches
4 Mountain
2 Great Furnace


4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Goblin Welder
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker (or Grim Lavamancer)
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Kragan dragon lord

4 Blood Moon
4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top


4 Bolt
3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast

The board
4 leyline of Sanctity
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Martyr of ash
1 phyrexiam methamorph
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Faerie Macabre
2 spellskite

I'll just explain the Kragan, I've found that agains some match up you end up in attrition war without a grindstone into play I that case when both player are on top deck I found that a good beater ofter end up doing the job, in that case Kragan is the best that I had found.

Still debating the Grim or Revoker in the main,

In the board i defenitively want to try the leyline just to see.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JO_MTG

There my actual list (for now, thanks for your recommandation and discution)

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
6 Red Fetches
4 Mountain
2 Great Furnace


4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Goblin Welder
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker (or Grim Lavamancer)
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Kragan dragon lord

4 Blood Moon
4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top


4 Bolt
3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast

The board
4 leyline of Sanctity
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Martyr of ash
1 phyrexiam methamorph
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Faerie Macabre
2 spellskite

I'll just explain the Kragan, I've found that agains some match up you end up in attrition war without a grindstone into play I that case when both player are on top deck I found that a good beater ofter end up doing the job, in that case Kragan is the best that I had found.

Still debating the Grim or Revoker in the main,

In the board i defenitively want to try the leyline just to see.

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Pretty good list, I'd like to question you about a few card choices:

Manabase:

Looks good, but honestly I'd switch the numbers of fetches and basic lands. It's more fine tuning than strategy. There are just more off chances that you'll get wrecked by something off the wall if you run more fetches than basic lands. Honestly, don't worry as much about not having enough shuffle effects for Top. You have fetchlands, Recruiters, and Grindstone to manipulate your library.

As far as your maindeck flex slots:

Kargan is a nice choice, I know why you want to play him. Also consider Figure of Destiny. I run two Revokers main and love it, because in my meta they help in matchups that are more common than not.

Sideboard:

I think that any less than seven blasts in your 75 is an error. It's one of the reasons the deck is powerful, one mana instant-speed Destroy Target Permanent. Six main and one in the side should be good enough, but I run seven main and one in the side. I might even switch them out for the Spellskites because if you're trying to protect your combo, might as well do it with something that has reach in other aspects of the game, no?

Leyline of Sanctity: If you already aggressively mulligan, I see why you'd wanna run it. I did for a little while, and when it is in the opening hand it's golden. But you will more often than not mull into oblivion to find it. If you wanna switch out a flex slot main deck, add another welder and run Witchbane Orb. Sort of clunky at four mana but it does the trick and you don't have to ship otherwise keepable hands to find Leyline {the only reason to run the card}

I'm also a big fan of 4 Bridges. If you do welder stuff, three is acceptable, but again you don't have any library manipulation outside of Tops to find it.

Nitpicking with this deck is all about finding those 0.X% points to give a higher median against a metagame. If you can back up card choices with proven results, then you've likely made the right choice. Running pet cards over real cards is suboptimal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook

Two red is sometimes hard enough to come up. Two white seems nigh impossible. If you want both destroy target artifact AND enchantment you could try Devout Witness for a jaya like effect, Duergar Hedge-Mage for a Manic Vandal like effect, or Reliquary Monk for something different.

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Isn't Wear // Tear another solid option in that spot, or is there something I'm missing?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HPB_Eggo

Isn't Wear // Tear another solid option in that spot, or is there something I'm missing?

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You can't tutor for Wear // Tear with Imperial Recruiter :wink:

Played in a small 15 man tourney today, 5 rounds split to top 4 (came 3/4th btw) for a Ancestral Recall. Wasn't able to test my white splash this tournament (wasn't able to find another enlightened tutor and plateau) this was the list I used (pretty basic one)

4 Painters
4 Recruiters
4 Grindstone
4 SSG
4 Blood Moon
4 Pyroblast
3 REBs
3 SDT
2 Magma Jet
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Spellskite
1 Goblin Welder
1 Magus of Moon
1 Jaya
1 Lotus Petal
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Red Fetch
8 Mountain

SB
3 Ensnaring
4 Thorns of Amethyst
1 REB
1 Manic Vandal
1 Martyr of Ashes
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Koth
2 Rachet Bomb

R1 vs Merfolk 1-0

G1 Was on the draw. Looked at my opening hand with a beautiful turn one moon hand, but he decided to open, turn 1 island into vial and I knew what he was playing from there. Ended up grinding him. 1-0
G2 He had enough answers for what I wanted to throw at him 1-1
G3 Apperantly he had no answer to bridge in his sideboard, so he eventually got grinded. 2-1

R2 vs UR Landstill 1-1

G1 I lost to this deck the last tournament I played with this guy as well (stopped me from getting top 8 in that one) just too much counter and snapcaster's into bolts to kill what he didn't counter. 0-1
G2 Really hate playing against this match up, went pretty much same as game one, both were very very grindy as he won in time this one. 0-2

R3 vs Thopter Combo 2-1

G1 Phyrexian revoker on thopter = no fun for him, grinded him out easily 1-0
G2 He got mana screwed and I revokered his top so he couldn't control his draws, survived a bit with pithing on grindstone, but just aggro'd him down with revoker, magus, and manic vandal 2-0

R4 vs UW Miracle Counterbalance 3-1

G1 Grinded him super fast with a lot of reb's back up 1-0
G2 He couldn't do to much with 2 thorns on the table, grindstone got there 2-0

R5 vs CAN Threshold 3-2

G1 Counters, stifles and Goyf's, oh my... 0-1
G2 I stupidly named blue on painter and he proceeded to REB my mountains away (shoulda known they boarded them in) and went to town with 2 mongooses. 0-2

Top 4 Sqweeked in top 4 by having better opponent ratios than the other guy who was 3-2

SF vs UR Landstill (hate this deck)

G1 Since the other times I've faced this deck, going for grindstone never seemed to work, so I decided to go for pure aggro and it almost worked. I had gotten him down to 1, with him having 2 mishra's factories and only having 3 mana so he could only animate one. While I had recruiter and painter on the table and I didn't notice I could just swing for win, I pointed to him to pass the turn but as I realized I could win, I said wait, and he called judge. Judge ruled since I had been going back and forth by either ending my turn by either pointing or orally saying go, he ruled that I had created a short cut to pass the turn and held me to it, and ended up losing the match because of it.

G2 Was still an alright game, tried to lock him down with Thorns and just go aggro, but engineered explosives on 2 said no, then he just Jace fatesealed me for the rest of the game.

Overall was happy with the list, even though it wasn't the one I wanted to use, and only lost to the 1st and 2nd place decks. Still gonna make quite a few changes mainly with the SB though, gonna try this:

1x Batterskull
3x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Helm of Obedience
3x Rest in Peace
1x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
3x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Why change what works?

I don't like Phyrexian revoker [edit: metamorph] at all anymore. His utility to kill key legendary cards is just null now, and copying a jitte or something just seems subpar.

Regarding 8 blast effects. I feel like this is correct, however I don't think I've ever found myself siding them in. Without painter they are dead in many matchups, and true heavy blue decks just are not as rampant here. I can only think of SnT mono blue with infinite targets, Jace MS, Tezz, and delver.

Winning the counter war vs mono blue is just near impossible. I play 3 or 4 revoker in my 75, at least 2 main for PWs... Revoker is just too good in my meta. And 6 removal for the worst card in delver decks is sufficient.

[edit 2: I guess Merfolk is gaining popularity again too]

With that said, has anyone actually considered cutting blasts from the side? I'm not promoting this just putting it out there.

Also other SB options I want to try. Shattering Spree. Tezz is popular now (so lotsa targets) and it can clear out a chalice which I found can be a real hindrance.

I am going to go out on a limb and assume that you meant Phyrexian Metamorph and not Phyrexian Revoker. With that I agree, Metamorph is now near on dead. A slot that can be used for other things. Personally I an thinking another Welder can go there.

Shattering Spree, Shattering Spree,Shattering Spree... Play this in burn. There is nothing better than having the same card cast 3 times, seeing the first countered by Cotv, then the Merfolk player force the second and then realise his mistake. There is no better mono red Art hate. Well IMO anyway.

Moomba, you said you are looking at a white build. Mind posting it? I would like to see a white build from someone that knows this deck better than I do. See what choices you make so I can pick through your reasoning and come up with a better deck myself.

@moomba

Is your landstill deck you always face like this?
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...UR-StifleStill


I've had some epic matches against this guy so I can offer advice but if what you face is different ill just keep my mouth shut

@ Jandax
Almost everything main deck was useful, except for the magma jets (they're changing to enlightened tutors)
MB
- Spellskite was super useful in every game it came out in. I find this deck has a hard time playing against decks that run lightning bolts (the moons, they do nothing!) so spellskite fixed that perfectly.
- Jaya surprisingly didn't do much for me yesterday, but she can't be replaced because once she gets going, shes insane.
- Revoker is almost always my mvp creature in the deck, stopping SDT for opponents, Jace's, Deathrite, etc.
- I'd play more magus's but as I said about the lightning bolts, they go poof to easily.
- The one ensnaring bridge is gonna keep a spot, especially with tutors now, it just helps against aggro matchups 1st match if it finds the board as they usually don't have a way of dealing with it pre-board
- welder is always silly, still want to try a welder version too with wurmcoil, but that's more painted stone that imperial painter imo
- mana base didn't let me down, was happy with my split, with white splash I'm still considering 1 plains as wastelands are very prevalent in my area and don't want blood moon shutting off my only white
SB
- ensnaring and thorns did their jobs perfectly, so they stay
- the extra REB was useful, as a lot of my matches were blue included
- The ratchet bombs sorta did their job, but I think theirs others that could be more useful
- everything else was useless, not just because of the matchups I played, but I always find them being duds (Koth can come alive under bridge lock, but I can do other faster combos now that I have painter/grind and now RiP/helm in sideboard)

@dice_box
4x Ancient Tomb
1x Arid Mesa
4x Blood Moon
1x bloodstained mire
4x City of Traitors
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x ensnaring bridge
1x Goblin Welder
4x Grindstone
4x Imperial Recruiter
1x Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1x Lotus Petal
1x Magus of the Moon
6x Mountain
4x Painter's Servant
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Plateau
4x Pyroblast
3x Red Elemental Blast
1x scalding tarn
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Simian Spirit Guide
1x Spellskite
1x wooded foothills

Is what I'm gonna try next weekend for 4 force of wills. If I do run a plains, the fetches have to be arid mesa's (only own 1 of each due to not wanting to spend more than whats in my Sliver commander, my baby <3) Also thinking of maybe finding room for Thalia main board. Sideboard is one I posted in previous post.

@Kap'n Cook
The deck is very similar, engineered instead of ratchet, maybe no crucible (didn't see it) the pilot makes his own variations on decks, but that list pretty much is the same other than what I listed sameish sideboard too. I'll gladly take some advice, at least from what I've noticed any piece of equipment I've added to my new sideboard would be almost an instant win vs it, but I'd like to hear what you have to say too.

Moomba drop 1 mountain and add a great furnace to make enlightened tutor better.

For the ur landstill matchup my general strategy has been to make land drops every turn and just play the waiting game until I am out of soft counter range (daze, sp). Blasting their card advantage is what really swings the matchup so I almost always try to blast standstill, snapcaster, and jace. The only card worth fighting over usually is blood moon since it blanks so many win conditions and snap is easily blocked. Patience is key. Having a ton of mana and must-counter-cards forces them to spend multiple pieces of countermagic/removal so coupled with blasting their CA you will eventually just out resource them.

Doesn't always work but I've found it's better than trying to jam stuff early only to see it countered and followed up by a standstill when I'm tapped out.

Lost to chalice twice this week. It was backed up by a FOW after I recruitered a manic vandal. That card just seems to shut me down. Think ima add more shattering sprees in the board.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ish

Lost to chalice twice this week. It was backed up by a FOW after I recruitered a manic vandal. That card just seems to shut me down. Think ima add more shattering sprees in the board.

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Just add in a Vexing Shusher instead of taking up more board space. If you can land a grindstone or welder (another reason I like having 3, more naturally drawn welders) then you can still combo off normally.

Edit:
Shattering spree is a fine choice. I admit a flaw of mine is my desire to cover so many different decks in my sideboard choices even if I may not face them for a while. Hence only jaya and vandal for chalice. But there's nothing wrong with putting in sprees so chalice decks aren't an issue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook

Just add in a Vexing Shusher instead of taking up more board space. If you can land a grindstone or welder (another reason I like having 3, more naturally drawn welders) then you can still combo off normally.

Edit:
Shattering spree is a fine choice. I admit a flaw of mine is my desire to cover so many different decks in my sideboard choices even if I may not face them for a while. Hence only jaya and vandal for chalice. But there's nothing wrong with putting in sprees so chalice decks aren't an issue.

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Oh I like the shusher

Moomba- Where are you playing that has Ancestral Recall as a prize for a 15 man event? How much is entry?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HammafistRoob

Moomba- Where are you playing that has Ancestral Recall as a prize for a 15 man event? How much is entry?

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And he gets that for 3/4th no less. Does first get a black lotus

1st place was guaranteed the Recall, and 2nd 150, rest was based on attendance. Since it was so low, 3rd/4th got a free draft, lol...

Anyone who has concidered doing a vial version if this Deck? :)

I am not really sure that the deck is right for vial. Vial is a horrid late game draw as well so it can have a bad effect on the smoothness of the deck. I think I would rather more tutors over instant speed creatures. If you're having issues with counters try Vexing.

Hello there. I played this deck for a while, with and without white splash. Then I sold my Recruiters a few weeks before the JR reprint had been announced.

I have a question about a card that apparently nobody plays. There is one guy here in Germany who plays this deck for a quite long time and who has succeded in quite a lot small tournaments with it. He plays 2 Umezawas Jittes Main. The more I thinck about it the more I like it (allready ordered all the cards for the deck again ^^ ).

There was allways one thing that I didn't liked about the deck. Without one of the combo parts (especially without the Painter), the deck tends to be very weak. Depends on the opponent, but to only play 1 WurmcoilE., 1 Bridge and a lot of small creatures is sometimes just not enough.

Umezawas Jitte gives you an additional mid or lategame plan. The creature count is high enough and Jitte can easily win games by it's own.

Am I missing something??? Why does nobody play Jitte? ;)

Generally you're not attacking for the win. It is a combo deck after all, with a lot of disruption.

The ol' dork-beatdown plan gets us there every now and then, but those two card slots could best be used for combo support or more disruption.

Don't get me wrong, Jitte wins games as it always has, but now that you can't Legend rule it away, it's another 4 mana card that doesn't help plan A.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jandax

Generally you're not attacking for the win. It is a combo deck after all, with a lot of disruption.

The ol' dork-beatdown plan gets us there every now and then, but those two card slots could best be used for combo support or more disruption.

Don't get me wrong, Jitte wins games as it always has, but now that you can't Legend rule it away, it's another 4 mana card that doesn't help plan A.

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I absolutely understand you. The question is, what can we do if the combo plan doesn't work? (Extraction etc.) Wurmcoil Engine etc. are also just a plan B slot.
In my opinion 2 Jitte are ONLY 2 slots that provides you a great plan B, or do you thinck that a plan B MD is not nescessary?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by StefN

I absolutely understand you. The question is, what can we do if the combo plan doesn't work? (Extraction etc.) Wurmcoil Engine etc. are also just a plan B slot.
In my opinion 2 Jitte are ONLY 2 slots that provides you a great plan B, or do you think that a plan B MD is not nescessary?

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There are actually a bunch of things you can still do. I am going to assume we are talking about sideboard games since we are discussing extraction. I have never really used a dedicated alternate win-con maindeck but I know others (like your friend) have found success.

A) Grindstone extracted: Not really a big deal. You just go dork beatdown with a massive control game in blasts. Jitte just makes the plan better and faster if you get in this situation. Jaya is a wincon and Koth is too if you play him.

B) Painter gets extracted: Much harder as your blasts are all dead unless your opponent plays blue. Jaya/Koth + hiding under a bridge, beatdown before they establish board position and natural grindstone mill. Not pretty but it does happen. Again, Jitte just makes it all go smoother while being worse if the combo is intact.

Again, these are worst case scenarios. A lot of people have liked playing Sword of Light and Shadow to augment the attacking plan but it is basically personal preference on how you like to play the deck.

Not really sure how relevant one small change is but figured I'd post anyway. Recently I've tested moving magus #2 back to the main again over metamorph and using the new sideboard slot for siege gang commander. The reason being the new rule change of course and wanting to experiment with the metamorph slot. I re-read much of the old thread and while rug is still big, having a 6th moon against storm and other decks is too good to pass up right now.

Regarding siege gang, he has been excellent at providing one large threat against control/show and tell while doubling as great creature removal/blockers against tempo and creature heavy decks. It is just a small added bonus that I run 3 welders and they pitch to commander.

Again, long term I'm not sure if its the correct direction to take. At least for now though it has been really good and synergistic with the welder build, for anyone running it other than me.