I'll be running my version of Pox at Jupiter Games this Saturday.
Printable View
I'll be running my version of Pox at Jupiter Games this Saturday.
Nice! I'm looking forward to read your report and decklist! Good luck and hopefully you will be victorious :-)
I'm going super old school.
Do It!! I'm going to play mine in a small casual local tournament.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
The build I'll be playing attacks opponents' hands more than anything else. I think in a combo-centric meta, hand disruption is an incredibly underrated aspect of controlling and winning games. With that being said, however, the route I'm taking is a bit less conventional and will probably raise more questions and eyebrows than dropping jaws and spinning heads.
I also happen to believe that Pox - in any incarnation, budget or powered - is incredibly well-positioned in today's general meta. Have you guys seen what decks have been winning?
I agree. I do well against combo with discard pox and the printing of shrieking affliction. I miss the extra land destruction but don't miss getting sinkhole dazed and wasteland stifled. As i said sneak and show running leyline of sanctity gives me pause so i'll be interested to see what you use and how you do. One of the rhings i love about pox is that since it is somewhat fringe there are many ways of approaching it as we can see from this thread which makes it a very interesting archetype.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
For as much as I want to go the route of land destruction, I will be eschewing the targeting aspect of that in favor of ripping apart my opponents' life totals with The Rack. Obviously, land destruction in a deck with The Rack isn't overly effective, but I think it works just fine here. My version is really more semi-suicidal, which obviously has its merits and disadvantages. But this is more of an experiment than anything else, and the most important thing to realize here is that most people are hardly prepared to deal with Pox strategies these days.
Because I am firmly going the mono-black route, I will be restoring the archetype to a more classic variation of the deck with more of the actual card Pox.
I will also be trying out Oppression.
Oh hell yeah. 3Mc. Great idea. That would work well in my 8x rack too. I wonder how i could fit it in. Good luck with that.
Mono Black are almost always make a choise between LD-focused, with Nether Void main, or handdisruption, with the Rack as a 4 of, these days. Seeing as you are going to fit in Oppression I would drop LD almost altogether, making more space for hard handdisruption. With hard handdisruption I meaning also no Raven's Crime, which ask for Crucible or Loam. Also as a Wincon I would suggest three Cursed Scroll.
That's all for now, got to run! Sure am eager to see your build!
In pushing High Tide specifically, one thing I do not want to go against is a mono black pox list that has an even heavier focus on discard than it already does, too much of it can rip your hand to nothing, then you never recover with a Liliana in play.
if the opponent doesn't side in grave hate i can make Raven's crime VERY annoying with the Shrieking afflictions in as well. And it is a small victory alone for them to waste side cards having to combat only 4 Raven's Crime and 1 Nether Spirit so they don't get screwed by it. During the usual grindy midgame with a Rack or Affliction or two in even with no Lilliana I just try and keep three black sources in play, ideally an Urborg a Factory and a Swamp. Sometimes if i have the luxury i lay down a fourth in case i need to pox. Otherwise any land I draw I get I just retrace it and they die to the racks and afflictions rather quick after that. If a Cursed Scroll is online too that is icing too. Perhaps I should add another scroll. 4 Duress are in the board just for a little extra speed and pain if necesary. I wonder how a singleton Oppression as Hollywood came up with would fit in. Bloodghast gone from this build now though I love him dearly.
The abyss doesn't exactly target either per se. The enemy chooses what to sacrifice. I found 2 excellent cards that do what they do for the same or less cmc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Instead of Dystopia, I ran Culling Scales in the board. Though it can't hit Leylines, I'm not concerned with them. Leylines aren't win cons. It does generate massive card advantage with Nether Spirit and can serve as a lock piece vs. decks that don't run 4+ cmc mana permanents.
The Abyss < Tainted Aether. My friend beat my skull in time and again with Dredge. Token generating decks also don't care about Abyss. But anyone hit by Sinkhole that is creature based cries very bloody tears when I slam this turn 3 by Dark Rit or turn 4. On an enemy board that's stuck on 2 lands and 1 creature, it's auto win practically. I run cursed scrolls and factories so I'm not concerned.
Should be good against Combo decks. I love playing the Rack; what are your thoughts on shriking affliction?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
What Gypsy Pox with Bottomless Pit?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
I look forward to reading about how you do.
Funny how the same cards keep getting discussed. The Abyss kills one (non-artifact) creature each turn. Its only real weakness is you can not use it and Nether Void together as they are both World Enchantments. Tainted Aether does nothing to my Delver since I can sack my Island and keep hitting you with it every turn, it also does nothing if Delver (1 CMC) is already on the table...Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
Personally I've found the exact opposite. Speaking in wild generalities; when there's lots of combo, rack + hand disruption is weaker. It's too easy for them to rip something off the top that you can't account for, or brainstorm to protect. Combo decks are also expecting hand disruption, and if they aren't set up to survive it they definitely address it in the board. Against combo I've had the best luck with more control (land destruction and trinisphere). Against agro/mid range is where I've had the most success with rack, where the hand disruption is supplemented with something like funeral charm that can pull double duty of either dealing with the bodies that hit the table or the cards let in their hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
All great points to consider. I like discard pox rack and affliction because it kills them off faster than i was able to before , but cutting down on the sometimes ball crushing land destruction makes me very nervous. Like you say with such cheap decks around i would have to add trinisphere as well to make that more consistently useful.
+1
Combo decks usually" go off" and up until then they can keep all their cards in hand. Creature based deck, otoh, need to play theiir creatures and spells because how else do they win?
This plays into your plan.
I know Reid Duke put a lot of work into doing well with Pox, and I can see why B/g would be a suitable choice. However, the madman in me wants to cremate my opponents' hands. I think the discard aspect of Pox is one of the founding strategies that made it so powerful.
Oppression and Liliana are two very different beasts a Pox variant uses, for those wondering. Casting Dark Ritual turn one into Liliana against Storm really isn't nearly as spectacular as powering out an Oppression, which would by itself crucify fast combo - or any combo for that matter. Oppression punishes players for casting spells in the worst humanly way possible, which is why I like it so much. Cards like Chains of Mephistopheles punish players for drawing extra cards, which to me is rather meh. Spells are what progress the game state, and I think you definitely get more value out of something like Oppression than Chains for the simple fact that it alone will dictate how your opponent plays the rest of the game out.
Casting spells is easily more common in a given game of Magic than drawing extra cards, which is why I like it so much.
The land destruction aspect of Pox is nifty, but cards like Sinkhole and Wasteland have always concerned me in the mono-black variations of the archetype. I think punishing an opponent's hand and Racking them is far better than trying to win an attrition battle with either of those two cards. An early Deathrite Shaman is a perfect foil to both strategies, which is why I don't think they're necessary in the build I'm going for.
And Cursed Scroll will definitely make it in as at least a three-of.
I have Liliana. If I need Tainted Aether to stop Delver, something's very wrong. I use it as a sideboard vs. very fast decks that attempt to drop multiple threats per turn. Liliana can't stop that but unless you're rushing me with Delver and 4 other creatures, Aether is still stronger. However it is true that it won't save you if there's already 3+ threats on the field, then again, neither will The Abyss.Quote:
Originally Posted by lyracian
I also like that you'll sac your island. I'm assuming this is a threshold-like list? My Wastelands, Sinkholes, Smallpoxes and Poxes applaud your decision ^_^
I run the Scroll as a 2-of. The 3rd one is a Pox for me. I don't believe the discard aspect of Pox is what made it so strong. Lots of black decks in the day had Duress + Hymn and that was already plenty. But I did attempt a discard heavy build with Rack and even squeezed in Funeral Charm, Raven's Crime, and Wrench Minds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
The true strength in Pox has to be the massive card damage it deals. Letting your foes keep their lands means when they're in top deck mode, they'll simply cast their top decked spells and your discard becomes dead-draw. Foes stuck on 2 land or less may end up getting stuck if they also need mana for instants to cast at end of turn. Clogging the hand means your discard stays relevant.
Some will argue "what's the point of your foe keeping spells they can't cast?" When they top deck that 1 land they need to recover, you'll really wish you made them discard that 'useless' spell of theirs 1 turn prior. Legacy lives and dies on "If only I 'X' that last turn!" One of the reasons why I like Pox. You deny them whole turns by casting it ^_^
It would be a bit pointless to sac the creature. Counter-Burn and Carpet Bomb decks have plenty of counter magic to deal with your other spells however they can not win without a threat. Tainted Aether is not good at stop them; The Abyss, Ensnaring Bridge and even Nether Void are much better at stopping them.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
I would hope that I would have stripped them of a couple of counterspells by then. though as someone pointed out awhile ago the problem with Tainted Aether is that they get to choose and they will usually make the worst choice for you. Still in theory it is so nasty that it is very tempting to try. I just havent been able to be satisfied with it enough past test draws to use it in a real game. Also the 4mc is a big problem if you are not running Dark Rituals.
@Hollywood
Can you share your list? i think after so much speaking we are all curious now; personally i don't own Sinkhole so i play The Rack Pox version, so my interest is double.
My Rack list is on pg. 10. I have to admit Hollywood had a great idea and I am going to replace my Bloodghast with Oppression. Makes much more sense in my discard Pox build, though I want to try the ghast in some of the aggro and loam decks people have listed here for fun. I think it would be better there.
I of course would like to see Hollywood's list too I but I respect if he would rather give it with the full tournament report later instead.
Yeah, I'll be providing the list after the tournament.
I'm not saying my list is optimal by any means, but it absolutely wrecks combo - which is what I'm going for.
And it will wreck combo, no doubt about that :-) I think we all have a certain idea of how your deck will look like. I am particulair curious about your wincons and how it will play against all those other decks on a tournament in overall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Yesterday I had less success, with my Negator deck, than I wished.
I lost to BUG Cascade, Cloudpost and Dredge. Still, I don't get upset over such a minor setback:cool: The experience will only help me improve the deck.
4 Bloodghast
4 Tombstalker
4 Nihilith
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Smallpox
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Pox
2 Duress
4 Innocent Blood
3 Darkblast
4 Dark Ritual
18 Swamp
2 Dakmor Salvage
Negator was ok, but the spot discard did nothing against these decks. I also needed more consistent mana base (yeah, mana problem with 20 lands and four rituals. wtf?:eek:)
I will replace the discard with four Hymn to tourach and more swamps.
Note: the idea behind one mana discard is to not be totaly screwed when facing fast combo.
What stops this deck is cards like Batterskull. I need a good answer to that:mad:
Ill be playing a GB Pox build tomorrow night that I will be borrowing from my buddy. Only question I have is what is best vs tribal like decks? I have 2 E Plagues in the SB. Will that be good enough? I see a lot of Folk, Gobs and usually at least one Elves deck.
Hardly enough in that kind of environment. More mass removal FTW. Also consider running some in Main deck.
Braids Pox, anyone?
4 bloodghast
4 gravecrawler
4 geralf's messenger
4 braids, cabal minion
4 smallpox
4 hymn to Tourach
4 pox
19 swamp
3 dakmor salvage
3 darkblast
4 innocent blood
4 dark Ritual
I have found in games against Delver decks it seems to come down to if I can kill that first turn Delver. If they draw enough other creatures/countermagic to stop my Sacrifice effects I tend to lose. Tainted Aether does nothing to stop the clock that is already on the table. It might slow them down but for the most part it is just a card they can ignore where as Cursed Scroll, The Abyss and even Ensaring Bridge are cards they have to deal with.Quote:
Originally Posted by beez
@ Megadeus: EP won't safe you. Indeed some massremoval like Deed or even Damnation should do the trick. E-bridge also works, while Cursed Scroll helps you mob up the board and gives you the game.
@ lyracian: I tend do agree, but giving them hell through discard helps a lot. Then again, it remains a difficult MU.
Plagues are fine vs tribal, but, if you want to go that route, play at least a third copy. I prefer a different and more varied choice of answers, though. My usual anti-aggro weapons are:Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
- pernicious deed
- tabernacle
- elephant grass
- drop of honey
- perish/virtue's ruin/massacre
They have the advantage of being in general more flexible.
Drop of Honey...That looks like a niiiiice card. Looks great for the Loam builds.
I did some playtesting with Oppression in the mono black discard Pox build. It seemed good. I think two seemed about the right number for it. I was always happy to draw it but be able to play it after I'd emptied my hand. Same with Cursed Scroll, Dakmore Salvage, and Bojuka Bog: 2x each. All great situationally but I don't want to be flooded with them. An arguement could be made for 3x Oppression if you have some Shrieking Afflictions to double up on the Rack effects.
Tainted Aether is played after a lock is established. Kind of like how you play Standstill or Nether Void when you have board advantage. However, if low cmc permanents are an issue, Culling Scales has my vote. Better with a Nether Spirit out and practically perfect in an LD based list since keeping them off a 4 mana permanent shouldn't be impossible.Quote:
Originally Posted by lyracian
I guess I should say that with 4 Liliana's in my main deck, a 4 mana enchantment (The Abyss) that does her job to ME on my upkeep doesn't sound good for my deck/playstyle. Using Nether Spirit as my only creature that comes into play when I choose does wonders with Tainted Aether or Culling Scales.
With many people going the discard route, I'd suggest Noetic Scales. Excellent synergy with Racking+Oppression effects and provides perfect defense better than Ensnaring Bridge. Necrogen Mists, though slower than Oppression was an older card I used to decent effect before I went to the LD/Discard hybrid route.
How about 1 deed main, 1 deed side, 2 E Plagues side, and an ensnaring bridge main? Also I play Wurm Harvest to clog the board as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
I'm trying something completely different, for I'm determent to use Nether Void and Deathrite Shaman in Bg Pox. It's just a thing (a craving if you will) right now. I think you should check the following link:
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=4222&d=224658.
It has two Deeds and a Worm Harvest main and four (!) E-Plague in the side. I would definitely change the sideboard for your meta (something you always have to do of course), but other than that I think the deck looks really sweet.
On E-Bridge: I don't like it main, but maybe it is better in an aggro-infested meta.
Again, right now I'm determent to play Nether Void and Shaman. Come to think of it, the list presented could be a really good starting point for me as well :-)
I don't know if people here picked up the following: Revenge of the Necromancer. It's a card you can vote on and if it wins will be printed in an upcoming set.
http://media.wizards.com/images/magi.../ymtc247_7.jpg
Right now it's in the finals! You can still vote on it http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...y/feature/248d
It could be a potential card for our beloved Pox, once we know it's casting cost :-)
It sucks. Maybe if you could begin with the card in play...
Now now, those are some strong words :-)
Indeed, it really depends on how the card will turn out (and of course the cmc), but how sick could this be: get rid of a threat and get something in return! Along with The Rack to do some damage...
Of course this purely hypothetical, but maybe (just maybe) it could be something. But lest not forget to be patient and see what WotC will make of it. And you could be right, Hardcore: maybe it just plain sucks :-)