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Yes I remember that. Garobadou mathematically determined the list that is most likely to combo off by turn two or three at the latest. That list was an absolute monster in terms of consistently comboing off with either Thoughtseize, Daze or FoW backing it up as well. Wonder why his list never took off.
Its a shame he is no longer active. Would love to see an updated list from him that maximizes consistency in the post griselbrand era.
Based on your excellent feedback, I revised my decklist as follows...Quote:
Originally Posted by kingtk3
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Animate Dead
2 Hapless Researcher
3 Thoughtseize
4 Griselbrand
1 Jin-Gixaxis, Core Augur
1 Iona, Shiled of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Tidesproud Tyrant
1 Island
2 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
This puts the count to...
10-13 Discard Outlets (Counting the 4 Entomb, it's 13 if you count Thoughtseize, 10 otherwise)
12 Fatties (Counting the 4 Entomb)
12 Reanimators
Yes I realize that I actually increased the Animate Dead count rather than reduce it. This is because I wanted to get to the same 12/12/12 split Garobadou's calculations advocated in favor of and even with its vulnerability to Decay, Animate Dead is still the third best reanimate spell the deck has access to bar none. It doesn't cause loss of life like reanimate and it doesn't suck in the mirror matchup like Exhume. The fact that the first copy can be blown up is all the reason to play more, not less imo. Given the existence of Decay, one just has to be more vigilant about trying to Thoughtseize prior to casting it when you're facing down a Bayou.
I'm not a fan of Jin-Gitaxias these days but I do like that you didn't cut any Griselbrands for him.
I think the direction you're taking the maindeck with going all in on the ultra aggressive graveyard plan is interesting (like the Izzet Charm lists) and I'll be interested to hear about your results.
If your going all in on the reanimatepath, would you not be better of with Goryo's Vengeance instead of the animate dead? Okay, it's just one shot, but you are no longer vulnerable to abrupt decay. Just my 5 cents.
That's an interesting thought but I wish to play reanimator, not TinFins. The only way Groyo's could work in this deck is if you opt to play 4 Griselbrand + 4 Jin-Gixaxis as the creatures. If you opt to do that, I supposed you could end up with an interesting Reanimator and TinFins hybrid, but that's not what I'm interested in either.
Hapless Researcher ended up a bit too inconsistent for my tastes, so this is where I ended up instead...
//Produce (17)
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Swamp
2 Island
//Draw (8)
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
//Disrupt (11)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
//Combo (16)
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
4 Animate Dead
//Kill (8)
4 Griselbrand
1 Jin-Gixaxis, Core Augur
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Tidesprout Tyrant
Thoughts?
The creatures are the same as mine, except for the fourth griselbrand which I shifted with a Grave titan in order to have a good option against liliana and karakas.
The problem I see is that you literally have no outs against deathrite shaman OTD: since you don't play show and tell main deck you have to use the grave but you don't have any mean (apart fow) to deal with DRS nor the speed bump that lotus petals gives to ingnore it.
I imagine that in G2 you'll have cards to deal with him but I think that in G1 DRS would be a pain for you, and it's a card that it's widely played.
Maybe going down 2 lands and 2 animate dead for 4 lotus petal would be an idea? I found the shaman very less frightening when I can afford 2 mana on turn 1.
Thank you for the feedback. Lotus Petal is a solid idea.
Ok, will go...
+4 Lotus Petal
-1 Swamp
-1 Island
-1 Thoughtseize
-1 Animate Dead
With 4 Lotus Petal now in place, I'm almost certainly also going to try...
-1 Underground Sea
-3 Thoughtseize
-1 Animate Dead
+1 Badlands
+4 Faithless Looting
... to increase the turn one combo potential even further.
I'm surprised this isn't a common route to take. More consistently being able to go off one turn earlier seems like one of the best ways to dodge the majority of the hate.
As an aside, it's a damn shame that all the best discard outlets (aside from Entomb) are blue/red.
Would be absolutely amazing if I could get away with playing Dark Ritual instead of Lotus Petal to dramatically improve the odds of going off turn one. But the only way that would be viable was if Careful Study or Faithless Looting, or hell even Hapless Researcher were black.
Makes sense about the utility of Grave Titan.
Will also consider going...
-1 Griselbrand
+1 Grave Titan
If you're splashing red you could try, as some of us already do, izzet charm as an "intelligent" discard outlet: it is slower than faithless, but is an instant (thus enabling the exhume trick), can counter a bunch of stuff (I'm looking at you RIP) and can kill DRS.
It doesn't have flashback but I don't think you'll be too eager to fire it multiple time: remeber that it's card disadvantage.
However this will bring your list very close to professor_awesome's (and mine too), which are more controlling.
For a faster list I think faithless is correct but I would also up the creature count because you don't want to fire it blindly: you want a creature in hand before casting looting/study. Maybe you can cut a daze and a brainstorm to add 2 creatures, but this is theorycrafting.
I'm aware of the Izzet lists but like you said, that's a better choice for slower more controllish builds.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingtk3
I also have thought about upping the creature count by 2 and as you indicate, the only remaining place to make cuts are Brainstorm/Daze/FoW.
Good suggestions. Taking them into account, the proposed list would look as such...
//Produce (19)
4 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Island
//Draw (11)
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
3 Brainstorm
//Disrupt (6)
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
//Combo (14)
4 Entomb
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate
2 Animate Dead
//Kill (10)
4 Griselbrand
1 Jin-Gixaxis, Core Augur
1 Tidesprout Tyrant
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Grave Titan
With only 16 blue cards to support FoW, I would probably be well served to cut one or two of the seven non-blue creatures in the above list for a blue Sphinx of Steel Wind and possibly a second Jin-Gixaxis, but I can't decide which one(s) to cut.
I think I would cut the fourth griselbrand because the other creatures just cover each a different role, but I will first try to play the deck as it is to see how it goes: now's playtesting time!!! ^_^
Hmmm,
First things I see on the list that makes me doubt.
to many dorks in there. 10 is a LOT. I don't think I've ever ran more than 7 at most during a single game.
you are quite all-in right now, with hardly any consistency when it gets cut off ( due to discard or a well-placed counter)
I'd suggest running ponder or preordain instead of adding red.
Green is a better option to play because it allows all the good sideboard options you might want/need, 2 colors is enough nowadays though.
so if you take down 2 creatures and 4 lootings, you can add 3-4 cantrips and add those 4 thoughtseizes back for sure ( dunno where to grab the 7th spot, but thoughtseize are pretty good)
you'll be surprised how many players will reveal their hand before you even announced a target for it.
It looks like it slows your deck down, but you'll get a bigger chance to get a creature YOU desire instead of one of these 10.
I went with 10 to maximize the deck's speed and maximize the utility of Careful Study and Faithless Looting. That list was designed to maximize the incidence of either having an Entomb or a creature along with a cantripping discard outlet. Faithless Looting is a cantrip in this deck (you can try to argue that it's not card neutral but it actually is, it just happens to put that card directly in your yard which is precisely where you wanted it). More importantly, it digs into your deck to find you a reanimate spell.Quote:
Originally Posted by practical joke
It sounds like you would like something like this?
//Produce (18)
3 Lotus Petal
3 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Island
//Broken (11)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
//Discard (12)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Careful Study
4 Entomb
//Revive (12)
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
4 Animate Dead
//Kill (8)
4 Griselbrand
1 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
I'm a fan of this build as well since it hits the golden 12/12/12 ratio for each piece of the combo. Yes, you ideally do not want to use Thoughtseize on yourself, but when you have no other way to get a creature into your yard, it's nice having that option. Just don't use it for that purpose when facing off against an untapped Bayou and your only reanimate outlet is an Animate Dead. As long as you avoid using it in that scenario, Thoughtseizing yourself when it's your only means of comboing off is definitely not a bad play.
Looks solid to me, I won't discuss about creatures, which is preferences and meta depending though.
Just got back into legacy and pick this deck as the starting spot. I was wondering if there is a side boarding primer somewhere on this site? I went 4-1 tonight with the deck but feel like my one loss was due to not knowing how to board correctly.
In the builds that are splashing red for izzet charm, is anyone also adding burning wish? I feel like it might be useful. I typically run a traditional ub list but I've been messing around with Grixis
Here's my list as of now:
Creatures
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 meta choices Inwell Leviathan/ Empyrial Archangel/ Platinum Angel/ Angel of Despair/ Grave Titan
Lands
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Badlands
3 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Volcanic Island
1 Gemstone Mine
Spells
1 Animate Dead
4 Brainstorm
2 Daze
4 Entomb
4 Force of Will
3 Izzet Charm
3 Careful Study
3 Burning Wish
3 Exhume
4 Reanimate
2 Thoughtseize
1 Misdirection
2 Ponder
1 Show and Tell
SB
2 show and tell
1 Daze
1 intuition
1 Cunning wish
1 personal tutor
1 Thoughtseize
1 Exhume
1 Careful Study
1 Izzet charm
3 pithing needle
2 Surgical extraction
Burning wish goes and gets any part of the combo and disruption/protection. If you are playing red you should be playing wish.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeCroisQue
Burnign wish doesn't get entomb nor a creature to discard, so it doesn't get you any part of the combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
Burning wish gives you a reanimation spell, a discard outlet to use when you already have a fatty in hand or a discard spell. So you can say that adds a little of consistency, but in the end you still need to draw a creature or entomb.
On the other hand, BW slows the deck down of a couple of turn (aproximatevely) and put a serious constraint on the side board.
I don't know if the tradeoff is in favor of BW but I have the feeling that's not the case.
Burning wish is insanely slow, if you're playing red you should be playing either Izzet Charm or Faithless Looting and maybe REB's in the board and that's about the extent of it. Wishing on turn 2 basically sets you up for like a turn 4 reanimation--I think most reanimator players were hoping to have won by then.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
Captain Hammer: If you just want black discard, in order to be able to run Dark Rituals, you might want to try Putrid Imp or (as I just thought of it) Cabal Therapy. Your all-in approach is certainly interesting, although personally I'm far too much in love with Ponder to play it. (I'm running ANT at the moment, but Reanimator is my backup deck for combo-heavy and Karakas-poor metas, if such would appear.)
I'm not a fan of BW in Reanimator either. A large part of Reanimator's power is the speed in which you can go off. The tradeoff for what you gain by playing BW at the cost of that speed is just not worth it, imo.
I've been liking a few Ponders as well. It adds a little more consistency to the deck for when you're looking for that single combo piece to finish your hand as well as add more blue cards for FoW, which we can have problems with if you're running too many reanimation spells + hand disruption.
I've just picked up this deck, and have been going over the sideboard choices. I built my list referencing the discussion from this thread and the most recent Top 16 list (15th Place from SCG Providence)
I'm getting ready to take it to a local event next week, and I think I'm happy with most of my choices, except for one. The SCG list I linked plays a Bloodghast in the sideboard, which at first glance seems nice against removal heavy decks, but I've been thinking a Grave Titan might be a better fight for the slot. Am I missing anything with that assessment?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GalacticHitchHiker
hi guys! Considering a list like the one linked here ^ , i'd ask to some of you what would be your side-in/side-out against these matchups:
- UW
- elves
- ant
- bant (nemesis)
- patriot (nemesis)
I'm asking this cause i was used to play with a list without Petals (and with more creatures, also 2x hapless researcher), and now i'm a bit disoriented in game 2 and 3 cause of sideboard choiches. Are Petals something to cut after side? or not?
Please i need some help on these points, expecially for reducing the testing time
Hello Pochy. I would side as following against elves:
-1 TS, -2 daze, -1 Animate dead for +2 City, +2 S&T
Reasoning behind this: Daze & TS loose value on the draw & they will probably bring in ooze & therapy or TS. Siding as such makes you less vulnerable to GYhate and speeds up your combo.
Against ANT: -2 daze, -1 Tidespout for +1 Duress, +1 FS, +1 Coffin Purge
Just my 5 cents :smile:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pochy
thanks for the suggestions guys :)
so i should never cuts petals?
so against UW, should i side in only inkwell? or maybe also other things? i think there would be some very powerful cards against UW (needle on karakas/sensei for example)
considering this as a sideboard example:
3 Pithing Needle
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Ashen Rider
1 Bloodghast
1 Coffin Purge
1 Echoing Truth
1 Flusterstorm
1 Wipe Away
1 Duress
2 Show and Tell
2 City of Traitors
If i watch to the macth, i can see Needle, leviathan, fluster, duress, show&tell very useful, but that wuold be a +8 cards, maybe to much for finding something to cut for them. Probably 4 daze, 1 elesh, 1 ponder, 1 exhume, and one more if we are on the draw? ... and if we are on the play?
thanks in advice
Re: Lotus Petal - The way I see it, since Reanimator is not a combo deck that wins immediately (vs say Storm or Omnitell), waiting longer generally does not help us. Lotus Petals speed us up and allow us to go off potentially on T1 or T2 with greater consistency, so I would never cut them.
Against UW, I would not bring in Pithing Needle. Generally, they're going to be only running Karakas as a 1-of, so it's not that likely they'll see it early enough to matter. More likely what you'll have to deal with is RIP, so bounce / Show & Tell needs to come in against them.
Speaking of Show & Tell, has anyone else been not very happy with it? I don't like how it pulls our deck in two opposite directions with Careful Study wanting us to dump creatures from our hands while S&T wants us to keep them in our hands.
@pochy: I second Esper3k statements.
@Esper3k: I felt the same about S&T and now it can be found only in my side as a 3-of. In this way it is less luckster because when I side them in I also side some careful study out.
This is my exact thought of Show and Tell in the deck. I hate it in the main deck, I feel its presence in the deck forces you to make bad plays/keep bad hands. I think it's perfectly fine in games 2 and 3 because I generally am boarding out some amount of the graveyard part of the combo to fit in anti-hate and Show and Tells. But the existence of Deathrite Shaman sort of warrants it. Not only because it's graveyard hate on its own, but generally a deck with Deathrite Shaman can also threaten you with Abrupt Decay which essentially counters Animate Dead, which is what would replace Show and Tell in the main.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
So I see us having two options, one is ignore Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay, and play Animate Deads in the main again. This gives us the strongest possible maindeck configuration and we should be able to most other decks quite easily. I can see this being a real option going forward short term with Jund and Shardless BUG seeing less play. It all kind of depends on how much Deathblade resurges in the upcoming months.
The other option is just keep the Show and Tells in the main to play against maindeck hate. We have a slightly weaker deck, but a little more versatility and aren't automatically dead to an early Deathrite/Scavenging Ooze. I'm personally in favor with having the stronger main deck. The reason we play Lotus Petal is to speed the deck up, but what good is that if our deck is disjointed? It's not like we can't beat an active Deathrite anyway. It just takes a little sculpting. Ooze is much harder to beat, but luckily there are less decks playing it in the main right now and just as few Green Sun Zeniths.
I've personally been going back to testing Izzet Charm in place of the Show & Tells. I'm in love with the idea on paper, but am still trying to decide how I like it in practice.
As I see it:
Pros: all 3 modes are great for us
Cons: Weakens our manabase since it requires us to play red
Would you mind sharing your list? I'm curious to see what your mana base looks like. I've never tested with red due to my lack of red duals. But I don't hate the idea of Izzet Charm, mostly I just don't like that adding red doesn't do much outside of the charms though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
If you are playing red for Izzet Charm I think there is an interesting card to put in the side. I know it has been discussed here a long time ago, but the card flies under the radar again. I'm talking about stronghold gambit (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...iverseid=21357) Has anyone ever played with this?
Current maindeck I'm fiddling around with:Quote:
Originally Posted by zmattk
// Lands
4 [B] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [5E] Swamp (1)
1 [ZEN] Island (4a)
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [R] Badlands
// Creatures
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [NPH] Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 [AVR] Griselbrand
1 [M11] Grave Titan
1 [NPH] Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [ARC] Reanimate
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Entomb
4 [BRB] Exhume
4 [OD] Careful Study
4 [V09] Lotus Petal
4 [DD2] Daze
2 [B] Animate Dead
2 [RTR] Izzet Charm
1 [M12] Ponder
A few notes:
1) After playing Reanimator for awhile, I found that I really hated Thoughtseize / Duress as a protection spell. My problem with it was that I was having too many games where I'd want to go off... but couldn't do it if I cast a Thoughtseize that turn. So, I'm playing around with a 4 Daze configuration. I even had a 1-of Misdirection at one point but with the point I'm going to make in part 2, I had to cut it.
2) With the Izzet Charms, that gives me 10 "dump something in the yard" spells, which made me want to up the Reanimation spells as well, thus the 2-of Animate Dead, giving me 10 of each. With the 6 Careful Study effects, I'm testing 8 fatties instead of the standard 7. I'd like to go up to 3 Izzet Charms, but I don't want to cut any Careful Study (because it's part of the key to going off on T1 or T2). I'd also love to fit a second Ponder in there (again, I used to have 2 in earlier lists I've been playing) and that second Animate Dead may eventually go back to becoming a Ponder.
This list aims to go off on T1 or T2 with either FoW or Daze as protection. Playing more Dazes also helps with the blue card count for FoW (which hurts when we're playing all these black reanimation spells on top of black hand disruption).
I have been fighting S&T for the longest time. I finally relented and put 1 in the main and 3 in the side, as a stubborn acceptance to all the lists running 2 and 2 having success at large events. And even in game 2 when all 4 are in, I feel no more capable than before. In game 1 i feel the surprise and speed is our main strength, and sacrificing that to counter hate is fine, but only as much as is required of us.
I tried a sideboard of bounce and discard to preempt or subvert the hate brought in against us, and feel like I had just as much success then as now. I can only conclude that I am a mediocre player and that S&T isn't as necessary as other would lead you to believe.
I think Stronghold Gambit is a very neat card, but not sure that it's good for Reanimator unless you're playing a super discard heavy list?Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklingske
The only matchup I can really think of where I'd bring in Show & Tell is against Jund style decks where they don't really tax our manabase and don't really have countermagic (ie, their only real way to interact is through hand disruption & yard hate). Of course, Show & Tell does make their hand disruption and REBs better...Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
I see people having issues with deathrite shaman and the like,
I've always run a near similar sideboard which changed with the meta, however I prefered to use a well-timed entomb or chain of vapor to solve a lot of issues. ( same goes for discard and the other disruption you are running)
However there's 1 card that can be used against a multitude of annoying things:
Disfigure
It's cheap, on color, kills the majority of hatebears and most importantly instant speed.
For those of you cutting SnT from the maindeck for cards like Izzet charm, something I've been experimenting with and loving since GP Denver is Echoing Truth mainboard, It is not as obviously versatile as Izzet charm but it does keep our mana base stronger while dealing with troublesome non-creature, non-land permanents as well as token hoards.
I picked this deck up a few months ago and proceeded to 0-3 drop at Grand Prix DC.
Then I went home and practiced for a few weeks.
Tonight I won a 17 player local event and earned a minty Revised Bayou.
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Island
3 Griselbrand
1 Grave Titan
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Elesh-Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Entomb
3 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
2 Izzet Charm
3 Careful Study
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Lotus Petal
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
2 Animate Dead
-side-
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Pithing Needle
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Dark Ritual
1 Flusterstorm
4 Show and Tell
1 Massacre
1 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Inkwell Leviathan
I played against
Dredge - win
Elves - win
Jund - win
Pox - loss
UWR Delver - loss
UWR Delver - win
High Tide - win
Jund - win
Access to Izzet Charm and REB is powerful, but I'm still not sure if making the deck weaker to wastelands is worth it.
Grave Titan main was super impressive all day. 10 power across 3 bodies, only costing 6 mana (6 life for Reanimate) made it a real winner.
I also think Engineered Explosives is a must, and Chancellor of the Annex's pseudo-Daze ability won me 2 games.
Congratulations on the finish. Regarding your list: What conditions warrant bringing in the Dark Rituals? As well at the Chancellor. Having only a single Massacre and EE, relying on card filter to find them, how successful were you?Quote:
Originally Posted by TinkerRobot
Thanks.
Hey guys,
I've been playing tin fins reanimator for awhile now, and after a few bad runs I'm thinking of switching to regular reanimator. Questions
1. What do you think makes normal reanimator more consistent then tin fins? Or do you think they are the same?
2. Against the tier decks now do you just get grizzelbees everytime or what matches still warrant Iyona? Death and Taxes?
3. I've been reading about the red splash. I like the idea of running basics. Lots of tempo in my area. How great is it?
Thanks for your time :smile:
Won the Dutch legacy nationals (89 people?) yesterday with Reanimator. Much of it can be attributed to my pairings though, Affinity, Goblins and triple Elves is somewhat unusual. I had not touched the deck before, and I'm sure my play was sloppy, but the deck certainly does some broken things.
My pairings:
Affinity 2-1 (lost a game to tezz ultimate which was fast enough because of a spell pierce)
Goblins 2-0
Death Blade 1-2 (seems like a fairly weak MU, this match did feel winnable though)
Elves 2-1 (lost a game to DRS)
Elves 2-1 (lost a game because of him playing ooze after I needled DRS, turned out he tapped non-elves for Heritage Druid though)
Elves 2-0
UWR ID
-
UWR 2-1 (lost g1, might have won if I had delayed all plays by a turn)
R Painter 2-0
Finals opponent had dropped (we split prices), would have been BUG or TES
My list:
4 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Tidespout Tyrant
4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
2 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
3 Ponder
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
3 Exhume
1 Animate Dead
2 Show and Tell
3 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp
Sideboard
2 City of Traitors
2 Show and Tell
1 Ashen Rider
1 Blazing Archon
3 Pithing Needle
2 Echoing Truth
2 Flusterstorm
2 Duress