[Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

There are a lot of grindy MU's in my meta (a while back I faced Esper Deathblade 3 rounds in a row, Batterskull + enough mana to bounce it is a bitch). During a lot of those matches, I struggle to get to the point where I can reliably cast DR. This b/c I often have too few creatures (and Bridges) to Cabal Therapy 2+ times in 1 turn (a little bit too often I had to strip away 2+ castable counters/StP etc. before being able to safely go off) AND DR that same turn. The key to solving this is being able to have a few more creatures in play without having to rely on your Bridges.

After a couple of turns of barely getting by, you dredge (if necessary) and play the Dakmoor Salvage and boom, you have 2+ extra creatures to feed to Cabal Therapies. Or, when really living the dream, you may even have an untapped Salvage on the field. Cast Therapy, then flasback it.

Heck, in the worst case it's a couple of extra bodies to join Ichorid on the beatdown.

Anywho, b/c that's what I want to do I obviously can't run Balustrade Spy. This leaves us with the Whirlpool creatures, Kelpie and Griselbrand as most common DR targets/combo enablers. Griselbrand is a great DR target, but you won't always be able to pay 7 life to combo out. On the other hand, Griselbrand is a 3 turn clock, that's never bad. I just can't protect it for that long, not running counters and all. With Kelpie you really have to wait to play a land until after you DR it. This kinda undermines the problem I'm trying to fix. And since I'm not playing any counters, I don't need a 2 CMC creature to pitch to Shoal. So that leaves me with Whirlpool Drake as my DR target. Even if the first trigger nets me only 2 dredges, the second nets me another 2 for a total of 4 dredges (or roughly 20 or so cards in the GY). Or, with enough cards in my hand, I can play through a Stifle, making it easier to go off. It's also nice that the Whirlpool critters let you put Narcomoebas that are stuck in your hand back into your library.

A question from a not overly experienced dredger:
As Omnitell is pretty dominant right now, I'd be inclined to add 4 Ashen Riders in the side of a spy-version. However, in most lists posted I see it isn't included, is there a specific reason why?

My sideboard would look like:
4 Ashen Rider
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Contagion
3 Faerie Macabre

Any other suggestions regarding this spy-sideboard?
I consider this deck (besides Lands) for a tourney soon.

For the Ashen Rider bit - Ashen Rider doesn't ensure you stop the Omni-tell player (depending on what they drop with S&T, most likely Omniscience). When they drop Omniscience, they can use all instant speed cantrips they want in response to the Rider trigger so even if it saves you that turn, you're pretty much dead the next.

The SB looks ok. I don't like having DR targets in the SB for the Spy-list (DR'd Spy = win), but that's about it. If you feel you need 'em for your meta, more power to you.

When running the Spy-list, I like to have a Progenitus in the main 60. Just so I can live the dream of dropping a Spy on the opponents' S&T, where they drop an Emrakul.

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Originally Posted by Rivfader

A question from a not overly experienced dredger:
As Omnitell is pretty dominant right now, I'd be inclined to add 4 Ashen Riders in the side of a spy-version. However, in most lists posted I see it isn't included, is there a specific reason why?

My sideboard would look like:
4 Ashen Rider
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Contagion
3 Faerie Macabre

Any other suggestions regarding this spy-sideboard?
I consider this deck (besides Lands) for a tourney soon.

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Last tourney I beat omni-show with a dread returned chancellor! They had one open mana after show/tell, I showed the second chancellor.......all spells cost two:-)

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Originally Posted by jimmythegreek

Last tourney I beat omni-show with a dread returned chancellor! They had one open mana after show/tell, I showed the second chancellor.......all spells cost two:-)

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I would never thought of that (although it's parallel to Lands dropping (trini)sphere on S&T), that's just awesome :)
@ Echelon: Ty for the advice, I probably swap out Ashen Rider for something else.
Is Omnitell to be considered a favorable MU?

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Originally Posted by Rivfader

A question from a not overly experienced dredger:
As Omnitell is pretty dominant right now, I'd be inclined to add 4 Ashen Riders in the side of a spy-version. However, in most lists posted I see it isn't included, is there a specific reason why?

My sideboard would look like:
4 Ashen Rider
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Contagion
3 Faerie Macabre

Any other suggestions regarding this spy-sideboard?
I consider this deck (besides Lands) for a tourney soon.

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Yeah my experience is similar to others here. I didn't find Ashen Rider to be completely effective at stopping show, as they plan for it, given their deck has very few options for interaction at that point. It's the best option we have for that matchup, but I'd only include it if Show is common where you are.

When I used to run spy, the matchups that had me disappointed more than any other were the taxing ones, ie Thalia, Guardian of Thraben-types.
If you can't land Spy against these kind of decks, you're left to grinding it out against Batterskull etc., until they land a Cage/RiP.
You won't win these matches unless you combo very quickly or get past the taxers, neither of which are easy or likely, given many of these decks run discard and/or creature exile to slow down your Dread Returns.
Whilst I'm not running Spy right now, nor have I played Spy for about 6 months competitively, I'd be giving thought to Dakmor (in the side) and Chancellor (in the main) for sure.
I'd be keeping Contagion & Macabre too.

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Originally Posted by Rivfader

Is Omnitell to be considered a favorable MU?

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With Chancellor in the 60, it can be. But no, not really, their deck is less of a glass cannon than ours and has a silver-bullet sideboard they can access from game1.
But;
They're significantly slower than us (when we're at our best), however Brainstorm and counter will make it easier for them to race you. The key here is Therapy together with Probe.
Remember you don't have to name the card with Therapy, until after they choose to counter/brainstorm or not.
With Therapy in game1, I often name Force or Cunning Wish early. After sideboarding, it will depend a bit on the game state.
Bringing back Chancellor is good against this deck too as they need large amounts of mana to *go-off*.

One thing to note;
The Omnitell players don't seem to run redundancy where I play. Their whole deck hinges on Show and Tell. They could run a few Dream Halls, but choose not to, or at least I don't see them anyway. In this respect, Therapy can wreck them. I used to run Surgical Extraction in manaless (side) before I went blue, I just don't have room for it anymore.
An option to consider....

That's some pretty good advice. I'll definitely try the Surgicals considering the synergy with cabal therapy. Might try Unmask as well should I like it.

I also see your point regarding Thalia, and the consideration of Dakmor Salvage. That would probably mean swapping Spy for Dakmor postboard, and that feels like a hard bargain, especially since Dakmor can be wasted/ported. Perhaps a longshot, but would Chrome mox be worth the sideslots (it doesn't clash with spy, and can't be wasted/ported, but unfortunately doesn't dredge)?

I've been messing around with this deck, because I fell in love with it at first sight. :)

I was wondering if anyone has considered or tried Avaricious Dragon. The 4/4 flier is ok, but the draw 2 cards, discard your hand EOT, seems to be a great fit for this.


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There are better options. Griselbrand,spy,whirlpool rider/drake/whatever allow you to win in the turn they get DR'd. Dragon forces you to pass the turn to get value out of it.

So... I hit a new low this weekend. Managed to go 0-5 with the list I posted on the previous page. In the first round I made a couple of big errors that ended up costing me both games, had some issues with the deck not wanting to do its thing (dredge 20+ cards, still no creatures to recur) and some bad MU's. The rounds were as follows:

Round 1, Goblins. 1-2
In game 1 at some point I know his hand and name Goblin Warchief. Turns out it was a Chieftain. That cost me game 1. Game 2, the deck did what I wanted it to - ran over the poor guy like a truck. Game 3, Vengeful Pharaoh was doing a ton of work. At some point he attacked with a number of creatures including a big ass Piledriver and a Warren Instigator. During first strike damage, I forget that Pharaoh triggers (which would have killed Piledriver before it did any damage). He ended up Instigatoring a Matron and a Siege Gang Commander, saccing a token for exactsies.

Round 2, UWx somethingBlade. 1-2
Game 1, he doesn't stand a chance. I durdle a bit with the kill but get it in the end. Game 2 and 3, he finds an early Containment Priest and in 10 cards or so, I dredge 2 of my 3 Contagions into my graveyard. GG.

Round 3, Elves! 0-2.
Game 1 he steamrolls me on T3. G2 he start with land, Deathrite. I have the Contagion and Surgical Extraction, so I strip them out of his deck. Turned out it was the right move to do, as he had a Green Sun's Zenith he wanted to use to find a 2nd DRS. Unfortunately, this forced me into draw-go for a couple of turns so by turn 4 he steamrolled me again.

Round 4, Miracles. 1-2.
Game 1 went like a dream. G2, T2 RiP. G3, T1 Grafdigger's Cage. Turned out he had boarded in 2 RiP, 2 Cage and 2 Containment Priest. OMG!

Round 5, Nic Fit.
G1, T1, DRS. I drop a land, hardcast Cabal Therapy 2 times, stripping his hand of anything dangerous. I never find the Street Wraith/Phantasmagorian and scoop when at 10 life, facing 2 DRS and a Sigarda. G2 I get the engine going but have some bad luck with my dredges. Even though my Pharaoh is in the yard, it can't kill his Sigarda and soon a Scavenging Ooze eats everything important.

I don't know what to think of this. Was this just a combination of big mistakes, bad luck and unfortunate MU's or am I just trying to do too much with this list..?

At the end of the day, I do like having the Bloodghasts. Having to keep a hand with Dakmor Salvage as your only dredger sucks but happened in only 1 game over the course of the day. Besides, soon after I found a Troll. The Bloodghasts add some nice pressure to the board and explosive plays on the combo turn and were the biggest stars of the day, pretty much. Alongside Vengeful Pharaoh, that is. I currently run 3 of those in my SB and have no plans on shrinking that number.

I'm curious to know what you guys think.

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Originally Posted by Rivfader

...would Chrome mox be worth the sideslots (it doesn't clash with spy, and can't be wasted/ported, but unfortunately doesn't dredge)?

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It's not such a crazy idea with Spy. I've not tested it personally, feel free to give a spin and let us know what you think.
My initial thought would be to only consider it if *taxing* matchups are common for you.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Round 1, Goblins.
At some point he attacked with a number of creatures including a big ass Piledriver and a Warren Instigator. During first strike damage, I forget that Pharaoh triggers (which would have killed Piledriver before it did any damage).

(Vengeful Pharaoh) I currently run 3 of those in my SB and have no plans on shrinking that number.

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Bummer, sounds like a terrible night!
I've used the same out to Piledriver in the past too. :cool:
Given we should usually just stomp goblins and that matches like Miracles and Nic-Fit can be bloody difficult to win, I think you just had an unlucky one.

Given the Bloodghast list relies less on Bridge than the regular list, I can see how Pharaoh could prove a worthy SB pick. I totally forgot about that guy.
What matchups do you regularly bring it in for?

Unless you are playing Dakmor Salvage from hand the opportunity cost of Dredging 2 as opposed to 4.5 on average isn't worth the extra body over just playing Dryad Arbor or the X robots. Even a more subtle card like Gigapede to increase your average Dredge or discard business probably gives you more consistency than having to play Dakmor Salvage at all. If you want to recur a land from the graveyard in order to activate Bloodghast, Dread Returning Dryad Arbor probably gives you better value.

I think the card is just mediocre in dredge tho', ghasts have just never really worked well.

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Originally Posted by slave

Given the Bloodghast list relies less on Bridge than the regular list, I can see how Pharaoh could prove a worthy SB pick. I totally forgot about that guy.
What matchups do you regularly bring it in for?

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Pretty much every, except for Miracles and Elves!

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Unless you are playing Dakmor Salvage from hand the opportunity cost of Dredging 2 as opposed to 4.5 on average isn't worth the extra body over just playing Dryad Arbor or the X robots. Even a more subtle card like Gigapede to increase your average Dredge or discard business probably gives you more consistency than having to play Dakmor Salvage at all. If you want to recur a land from the graveyard in order to activate Bloodghast, Dread Returning Dryad Arbor probably gives you better value.

I think the card is just mediocre in dredge tho', ghasts have just never really worked well.

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Ghasts have been some of the best performers of the day. The main problem is that with grindy MU's you don't have the resources to safely DR, so how do you expect to DR a Dryad Arbor to then recur the Bloodghasts (or DR anything else)?

Dredging Dakmor wasn't the issue, in the 13 games I played saturday I only had to dredge it once (and then dredged a Thug, so there's that). Also, by the time my board presence was big enough to want to dredge Dakmor, dredging 4 cards extra wouldn't have mattered. If I want to go off that turn, I can't use Ichorids/Nether Shadows I dredged into that turn anyway. Having the ability to dump 2/3 extra bodies on the board is quite big.

The thing with the X-bots (and other stuff) is that they're only useful in your starting 7/8. After that, they're useless. Same goes with Chancellor (although a DR'd Chancellor can win games on its own). I don't like having dead cards in my deck, especially not in a deck like this. Dakmor Salvage and Bloodghast are cards that let you prevent just that. Sure, you don't want to dredge Dakmor more often than you have to, but Dakmor is never a dead card. In your hand, it's awesome. In your yard, it allows you to dredge it so you can get some bodies when you need those. Same goes for Bloodghast. It can be fed to Ichorid, it can be a nice beatstick alongside other stuff, it can power your combo. Even mid-combo they can be useful if needed to be. Or the Bloodghasts can be used to push through some more damage with Flayer on the board. Flayer for 4 + Flayer for 5 + 4 Bloodghast x 2 power = 17 damage, allowing you to possible skip on 1 DR for the combo kill.

I'm not sure yet, I definetely think I'm on to something. It just isn't for my meta, I fear. But I'll keep on testing.

I honestly don't think Dakmor Salvage and Bloodghast improve any of your match ups other than D&T and metagaming vs Deathrite Shaman is more important and costs less MD space, but whatever floats your boat I guess because 8 cards are really a matter of taste in any Manaless Dredge list.

No creature card is ever really dead in Dredge as long as it runs Nether Shadow.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

I honestly don't think Dakmor Salvage and Bloodghast improve any of your match ups other than D&T and metagaming vs Deathrite Shaman is more important and costs less MD space, but whatever floats your boat I guess because 8 cards are really a matter of taste in any Manaless Dredge list.

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I have kept at least 1 dakmor in the main just for the game 1 matchup against D&T with thalia, guardian of thraben or Mud with Lodestone Golem. They are both most likely bringing in gravehate g2, but I had a 1 card wiggle room and see both decks often in my meta.

Here is my current 75:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell
1 Dakmor Salvage

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith

4 Phantasmagorian
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow

4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below

4 Whirlpool Drake
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Ashen Rider
1 Progenitus

SB: 3 Serum Powder
SB: 4 Faerie Macabre
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 4 Unmask

Sideboard decisions: I have had shoal miss too many times. When my opponent mulligans down to 5 and then is pleased. I want the FoW obviously, but if I can't find it with a Serum then I'll gladly Unmask, take that grave hate and wait 2 turns to start dredging. Its my preferred backup method of not auto-losing to RiP and the like.

Another horror- show at my lgs going 4-1 good for 2nd place.
Living end 2-1
Omni-show 2-0
Bug control? 2-0
Nic fit 2-1
Snt 1-2

Late. Ill try to post something relevant tomorrow. I love this deck.

Hello All!

Here is my list that I've been running on Trice for several weeks now; it's a little different from what everyone is doing here:

4 Serum Powders

4 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
2 Griselbrand
4 Ichorid
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith

4 Bridge From Below

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Dakmor Depths
4 Wasteland

I like running Powders, as I was getting hands without any dredgers; I put in these in to act as my fifth dredger. Also, they allow me to actually mulligan more aggressively for particular setups. I like Bloodghast over Nether Shadow. I feel they pull their weight equally to Nethers if not more. I really like dredging into Ghasts and recurring them on the same turn. Both Ichorids and Nethers have to wait. A clock of 2 is much better than that of 1. So with Bloodghasts, I run Wastelands instead of Arbors. I like the addition, but many of you may not. Personally, they work great! They are like speedbumps that don't slow me down. Since my list isn't so dependent on Returning a fatty, I focus on my beatdowns with Batman and Robin. It's a really fun list, and well themed I might add. I've gotten a lot of compliments.

I used to run Spy and fearless. Stuff like Unmask were in the list. But I trimmed it down to the above. I run a blue package in the sideboard; I am still fiddling around with the board. I always run 4 Voids; I hate losing to Reanimator. What would you all suggest to run against a Show and Tell deck, or something that abuses such? I am still waiting for MTG to print a black and blue gamebreaker creature that has power like Iona.

I even looked at some old Vintage lists to see some ideas; I saw a Sutured Ghoul, which seemed interesting.

Cheers!

Golgari Grave-Troll often acts like a fine Sutured Ghoul without the need to exile parts of your graveyard :wink:. It just misses the trample.

If it's not broken don't try to fix it. Guys, unless 75% of your meta is d&t there's really no reasons to run dakmor salvage. You always want to dredge more than less even if it's one extra card, people with lots of dredge experience know this. This deck runs plenty of re-occurring threats. Often times I'm looking for that last piece of the puzzle whether it be a dread return or my target and that extra card could very well be what I'm looking for. In a deck that makes tokens through bridge , narco's, ichorid and nether shadow all recurring threats it's very rare that I don't have the creature count to finish the job. This is a dread return deck before anything else. There's no reason not to play balustrade spy imho unless your on the blue variant in which case I would play rider. In the end your dread returns are one of your most valuable assets. When I dread return its for the win, not to get all grindy and cute with the opponent.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

I think (Dakmor Salvage) is just mediocre in dredge tho', ghasts have just never really worked well.

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Originally Posted by jimmythegreek

If it's not broken don't try to fix it. Guys, unless 75% of your meta is d&t there's really no reasons to run dakmor salvage. You always want to dredge more than less even if it's one extra card, people with lots of dredge experience know this.

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Dead on. Agree 100%.
I see D&T quite a lot where I play, most times I go out I'll play against it actually. So I'll be taking along Ghasts again tonight to see how we test out again, despite the nagging thought I'm running a compromised (and not optimized) list.
But I like to change things up and try different things for the sake of it.:laugh:

I'm one of the very few people who play Dredge where I play, and so far taxing decks have been quite successful against me. They're usually able to lock me out of playing Therapies and Returns. I don't feel like Dakmor actually solves the problem, as these sorts of decks also tend to run Wasteland.
I'm thinking of taking along a modified sideboard with Vengeful Pharaoh and Leyline of the Void.
Usually I run Faerie Macabre, but the synergy with Pharaoh, Bridges and Leyline is making me dribble a bit.

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Originally Posted by jimmythegreek

If it's not broken don't try to fix it. Guys, unless 75% of your meta is d&t there's really no reasons to run dakmor salvage. You always want to dredge more than less even if it's one extra card, people with lots of dredge experience know this. This deck runs plenty of re-occurring threats. Often times I'm looking for that last piece of the puzzle whether it be a dread return or my target and that extra card could very well be what I'm looking for. In a deck that makes tokens through bridge , narco's, ichorid and nether shadow all recurring threats it's very rare that I don't have the creature count to finish the job. This is a dread return deck before anything else. There's no reason not to play balustrade spy imho unless your on the blue variant in which case I would play rider. In the end your dread returns are one of your most valuable assets. When I dread return its for the win, not to get all grindy and cute with the opponent.

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Dakmor is run because the pilot wants to run Bloodghasts not because he wants to dredge 2 instead of dredge 3. I don't understand your acute attention to this detail. Bloodghasts are better than Nethers, and that's why Dakmor is run. How is this a difficult concept? And how about this? Every dredge player knows how different games 2-3 are. Where's your sexy grindy time now? To me, hinging the deck on Returns is not a good idea. Play Reanimator; it has much better ways in bringing up your love handles from the grave.

But I guess I don't have much experience... sorries...

Wait, how exactly are Bloodghasts "better" than Nether Shadow again?

Easier to trigger clause? I buy it.

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Originally Posted by zzap

Dakmor is run because the pilot wants to run Bloodghasts not because he wants to dredge 2 instead of dredge 3. I don't understand your acute attention to this detail. Bloodghasts are better than Nethers, and that's why Dakmor is run. How is this a difficult concept? And how about this? Every dredge player knows how different games 2-3 are. Where's your sexy grindy time now? To me, hinging the deck on Returns is not a good idea. Play Reanimator; it has much better ways in bringing up your love handles from the grave.

But I guess I don't have much experience... sorries...

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I really don't know how to respond to this. Zzap is either a complete troll or a speculator of the arcetype who has little to no experience with manaless dredge. First off, I'm aware that people play dakmor for bloodghast. Second, I would really like to hear why blood ghast is better than nether shadow as well.Hhmmmm, is it because I get to dredge one less card to get a creature that most often can't attack the turn it came out? Blood ghast can't block, this tends to be a problem when your plan to grind out games with bridges on the swing back. Have fun dredging for two instead of six to get some limp body on the field. Now don't get me wrong I've grinded out my fair share of games with manaless but about 75% of my wins come from returning a spy. As far as games two and three go........sexy grindy time? Besides therapy, comboing out is your best opportunity to win the match, with almost every deck playing cantrips they will find their hate. I play manaless because it gives me two different avenues of attack where as reanimator is more linear. Most often I try to play the combo, if that fails then I have plenty of creatures to play the aggro role.

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Originally Posted by Rishadan

Easier to trigger clause? I buy it.

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Bloodghast is eons more conditional to trigger than Nether Shadow in Manaless Dredge.

I did say I was new.

I think both Nethers and Ghasts are conditional; I ran both, and I didn't see any major differences in grave-jumping. I do like the point of not being able to block, as I did run into times where I needed to block, but I had Ghasts for protection. But I would hardly call them limp bodies tho. Half the time they do not have haste, but that is offset by double the power. 2/1 is so much better than a 1/1, seriously. My last game against RUG Delver I had 3 Ghasts and 1 Dakmor Depths in the yard; I dredged 2, put a Weed and another Ghast in the bucket. I land-dropped for 4 2/1 wimpy bodies. 3 Batmans came along for the ride. My opponent couldn't handle it and tilted off the map.

I am no troll, but indirectly referring to my battleplans behind Manaless Dredge as Cute and Grindy picks at my nerves. I really love playing this deck; I know I play it differently, but I have a lot of fun. And I do feel that it is as competitive as the other builds here. I prefer to set the priority of the deck to aggro, and fall back on the combo. I do run into Ensnaring Bridge issues, as well as Ghostly Prison obstacles.

Happy testing!^^

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Originally Posted by zzap

I did say I was new.

I think both Nethers and Ghasts are conditional; I ran both, and I didn't see any major differences in grave-jumping. I do like the point of not being able to block, as I did run into times where I needed to block, but I had Ghasts for protection. But I would hardly call them limp bodies tho. Half the time they do not have haste, but that is offset by double the power. 2/1 is so much better than a 1/1, seriously. My last game against RUG Delver I had 3 Ghasts and 1 Dakmor Depths in the yard; I dredged 2, put a Weed and another Ghast in the bucket. I land-dropped for 4 2/1 wimpy bodies. 3 Batmans came along for the ride. My opponent couldn't handle it and tilted off the map.

I am no troll, but indirectly referring to my battleplans behind Manaless Dredge as Cute and Grindy picks at my nerves. I really love playing this deck; I know I play it differently, but I have a lot of fun. And I do feel that it is as competitive as the other builds here. I prefer to set the priority of the deck to aggro, and fall back on the combo. I do run into Ensnaring Bridge issues, as well as Ghostly Prison obstacles.

Happy testing!^^

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Welcome to the thread! Generally speaking led dredge is a bit more grindy whereas manaless' gameplan allows for damage outside of combat most often through flayer of the hatebound. Prison effects along with stuff like ensnaring bridge make flayer an integral part of the deck. Without the speed of lands, draw spells and lions eye diamonds the combo element allows us to keep up with faster decks (especially with a deck that wants to go second.) Im all for testing different options with manaless. Extensive testing has gone into each and every card and certain cards have proven sub-optimal through real play testing. Creating the most optimal list is precedent.

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Originally Posted by zzap

I prefer to set the priority of the deck to aggro, and fall back on the combo. I do run into Ensnaring Bridge issues, as well as Ghostly Prison obstacles.

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A lot of the time you'll be forced to play the grindy style of game if your opponent is well versed with how your deck works. But, but because gravehate can be so very *final* in legacy for Manaless, you will want to combo out whenever possible.
(obviously you know this, but there... I said it)
In both the examples you've just listed above, Dread Return combo into Flayer of the Hatebound is the win condition you want.

(sigh)
Last night was poor. Taxed out, gravehated, picked apart by exile effects and extraction. My only win was less than convincing.
Went 1-3, (Loss to D&T, Miracles, TES-storm. Won against ?Grixis tempo?) early finish to the night due to small turn out.

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Originally Posted by slave

(sigh)
Last night was poor. Taxed out, gravehated, picked apart by exile effects and extraction. My only win was less than convincing.
Went 1-3, (Loss to D&T, Miracles, TES-storm. Won against ?Grixis tempo?) early finish to the night due to small turn out.

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I like playing against D&T. XD But I think my list would fare better against them. I also kinda like Miracles, but that is a much different outcome. I have to stagger waves of beatdown, so that Term is barely manageable. But I like the matchup, as they don't usually run cage. I'd rather try to catch a RiP or Priest with FoWs than that evil one drop. TES is, well, TES. We are at their whim whether they get their pieces or not. Cabal is the gameplan there, and knowing what to Cabal. I flattened TES last night where he tried to combo off first turn. In game one, he ritualed, and I Shoaled; he ritualed again same turn, and I FoWed. He left.

Btw What is up with Storm players? I don't know; it's like if they don't hit their combo they just leave. They really don't care who is across from them, do they? I am not trying to start anything here. Perhaps it is just the players I've run into that have been poor sports.

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Originally Posted by slave

A lot of the time you'll be forced to play the grindy style of game if your opponent is well versed with how your deck works. But, but because gravehate can be so very *final* in legacy for Manaless, you will want to combo out whenever possible.
(obviously you know this, but there... I said it)
In both the examples you've just listed above, Dread Return combo into Flayer of the Hatebound is the win condition you want.

(sigh)
Last night was poor. Taxed out, gravehated, picked apart by exile effects and extraction. My only win was less than convincing.
Went 1-3, (Loss to D&T, Miracles, TES-storm. Won against ?Grixis tempo?) early finish to the night due to small turn out.

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D&t is by no means an easy match-up. Thalia is a total bitch to deal with, mom needs to be answered, stoneforge can be trouble and they probably have some number of rip in their board. Contagion seems good as well as sickening shoal if you run it (but your on blue if I remember correctly). This is all predicated on the fact that they havnt landed a thalia yet. An early therapy game one could definetly benefit naming thalia. The equipments in this deck can pose a problem especially with an active mom. Swords to plowshare on reccuring threats (especially ichy) really hurts when your trying to be cute and grindy. Against combo and faster decks chancellor has been a fucking all-star. I really never like siding that card out as it often gives us the turn we need to hopefully hit some gas or a therapy. Snt (both omni and ru snt) is very prevalent in my area. Annex can be the difference between a turn one snt and the opponent having to tap their ancient tomb to cast lotus petal.

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Originally Posted by zzap

Btw What is up with Storm players? I don't know; it's like if they don't hit their combo they just leave. They really don't care who is across from them, do they? I am not trying to start anything here. Perhaps it is just the players I've run into that have been poor sports.

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I don't know about poor sports, the guys running storm I know (cough cough occasionally me) usually just scoop when they know they're beaten and/or out of gas.
I think everyone who's played against Manaless knows how oppressive it can get once the yard fills up, maybe that's something to do with it?

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Originally Posted by jimmythegreek

Thalia is a total bitch to deal with, mom needs to be answered, stoneforge can be trouble and they probably have some number of rip in their board. Contagion seems good as well as sickening shoal if you run it (but your on blue if I remember correctly). This is all predicated on the fact that they havnt landed a thalia yet. An early therapy game one could definetly benefit naming thalia. The equipments in this deck can pose a problem especially with an active mom. Swords to plowshare on reccuring threats (especially ichy) really hurts when your trying to be cute and grindy. Against combo and faster decks chancellor has been a fucking all-star. I really never like siding that card out as it often gives us the turn we need to hopefully hit some gas or a therapy. Snt (both omni and ru snt) is very prevalent in my area. Annex can be the difference between a turn one snt and the opponent having to tap their ancient tomb to cast lotus petal.

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Yeah I always struggle against D&T.
In the games I played against D&T this week, I got taxed out in both games 0-2. Pretty hard to win once they have a Thalia & Batterskull.
I've been trying to see if Dakmor actually helped this, as taxing is pretty common where I am. Turns out after the last two evenings out with Dakmor/Ghast, that Dakmor hasn't really made much difference at all in this matchup. I only had Dakmor Wastelanded once the whole night if anyone is curious.
On the nights I play LED-Dredge, I've been packing 14 lands and 3 Lotus Petals, as I like to get off to a flyer (or get around taxers), but I don't really see the need for petals in manaless.

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Originally Posted by slave

I don't know about poor sports, the guys running storm I know (cough cough occasionally me) usually just scoop when they know they're beaten and/or out of gas.
I think everyone who's played against Manaless knows how oppressive it can get once the yard fills up, maybe that's something to do with it?


Yeah I always struggle against D&T.
In the games I played against D&T this week, I got taxed out in both games 0-2. Pretty hard to win once they have a Thalia & Batterskull.
I've been trying to see if Dakmor actually helped this, as taxing is pretty common where I am. Turns out after the last two evenings out with Dakmor/Ghast, that Dakmor hasn't really made much difference at all in this matchup. I only had Dakmor Wastelanded once the whole night if anyone is curious.
On the nights I play LED-Dredge, I've been packing 14 lands and 3 Lotus Petals, as I like to get off to a flyer (or get around taxers), but I don't really see the need for petals in manaless.

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Dakmor coming in tapped......is it even worth it l wonder ? Maybe run dryad arbor main?

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Originally Posted by jimmythegreek

Dakmor coming in tapped......is it even worth it l wonder ? Maybe run dryad arbor main?

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Yeah I have to wonder.
For me, Arbor opens up some explosive plays but I would suggest Dakmor has it's upside too.
Whilst Dakmor (would only be in the list if Ghast was there, for me) is conditional at best, neither of these options offer a way past Wasteland to allow you to combo out.
Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox & Lotus Bloom are all options here, but...... meh.

To be honest, I embraced the Ghast/Dakmor idea as a way to try and beat D&T, but they just have so many answers to us. One of the guys I play against packs RiP/Helm combo in the 60, so I don't think adding Dakmor is really going to help that when they're packing sets of Thalia, Vryn Wingmare & Phantasmal Image.

I can't help but feel Chancellor is our only real option here, given it's ability to slow them down from landing Thalia, RiP or the dreaded discard on turn1.
Fingers crossed from there... :cry:

Your thoughts?

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Originally Posted by slave

Yeah I have to wonder.
For me, Arbor opens up some explosive plays but I would suggest Dakmor has it's upside too.
Whilst Dakmor (would only be in the list if Ghast was there, for me) is conditional at best, neither of these options offer a way past Wasteland to allow you to combo out.
Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox & Lotus Bloom are all options here, but...... meh.

To be honest, I embraced the Ghast/Dakmor idea as a way to try and beat D&T, but they just have so many answers to us. One of the guys I play against packs RiP/Helm combo in the 60, so I don't think adding Dakmor is really going to help that when they're packing sets of Thalia, Vryn Wingmare & Phantasmal Image.

I can't help but feel Chancellor is our only real option here, given it's ability to slow them down from landing Thalia, RiP or the dreaded discard on turn1.
Fingers crossed from there... :cry:

Your thoI'mughts?

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In another sense I would lump d&t into the combo/gotta beet em' fast type decks. Cabal therapy naming rip/thalia is key here and besides an opening with chancellor its mostly just cross your fingers. Playing blue I would try to hold up counter spell for either those two spells. Playing black I would bring in contagion to take out mom, this allows us to go beat-down without worrying about a protected batterskull. Tough matchup no doubt.

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Originally Posted by jimmythegreek

(Death & Taxes) In another sense I would lump d&t into the combo/gotta beet em' fast type decks. Cabal therapy naming rip/thalia is key here and besides an opening with chancellor its mostly just cross your fingers. Playing blue I would try to hold up counter spell for either those two spells. Playing black I would bring in contagion to take out mom, this allows us to go beat-down without worrying about a protected batterskull. Tough matchup no doubt.

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Completely agree.
Anyone that packs maindeck gravehate = we have to be quick. This is one of the reasons I love Force in the main so much.

Speaking of which;
I rarely play against Lands, I suspect due to the scary expense of the deck, but in the times I have they've wiped the floor with me unless I managed to combo out on turn2 or 3.
No grind it out, they just nuked me with hate and went on to beat me (eventually).
How have you guys fared against this deck?

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Originally Posted by slave

Completely agree.
Anyone that packs maindeck gravehate = we have to be quick. This is one of the reasons I love Force in the main so much.

Speaking of which;
I rarely play against Lands, I suspect due to the scary expense of the deck, but in the times I have they've wiped the floor with me unless I managed to combo out on turn2 or 3.
No grind it out, they just nuked me with hate and went on to beat me (eventually).
How have you guys fared against this deck?

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Lands is a pretty rough matchup for Dredge and always has been. Tabernacle is pretty hard to beat, and Wastelock (for mana Dredge) is also a huge problem. Comboing out asap and/or having a Dread Return target that can negate Glacial Chasm and/or Tabernacle (i.e. Ashen Rider) are the only real plans I think.

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Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar

Lands is a pretty rough matchup for Dredge and always has been. Tabernacle is pretty hard to beat, and Wastelock (for mana Dredge) is also a huge problem. Comboing out asap and/or having a Dread Return target that can negate Glacial Chasm and/or Tabernacle (i.e. Ashen Rider) are the only real plans I think.

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Am I the only one who seems to think Lands is easy?

Faerie Macabre is the catch-all in this match-up, and I've tested it for years. As long as you blow them out early with it, they're stuck on whatever they have in their hands to beat you with. And Tabernacle isn't doing anything against Ichorids and Shadows - both of which have haste and still allow for a combo kill. Of course by the time an opponent has all of those cards in play like Chasm and Tabernacle, Ashen Rider would be your best best to win - but the truth is the deck doesn't have the steam to keep up with Manaless - it can only try to slow it down.

Force and Shoal eradicate any doubt in the early-goings against Crop Rotation and Sphere of Resistance, and hopefully by then you can just win.

Hello All!

How do you all fair against Opps All Spells? I have terrible issues with this deck; I even run Void in board. I always lose game one, and win game two. But then they transform their deck to Belcher, so they win game three. Is this just a bad matchup for Dredge? Perhaps I have the worse luck of all time or something. I run a full blue package as well, but they run cabals. It just seems like a matchup I could easily handle on paper, but it never turns out well. Is it me? Or is it the deck? Lol

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Originally Posted by zzap

How do you all fair against Opps All Spells?
....
It just seems like a matchup I could easily handle on paper, but it never turns out well. Is it me? Or is it the deck? Lol

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Storm/Fast combo is always hard to stop with Manaless, even the blue version. It's not just you.

Oops is a deck I've played on occasion (not very well I should add).
Given it's cute combo which is VERY vulnerable to extraction and counter, it's not a strong deck, but it can be a cheap one.

A version of Oops I've previously played is with Laboratory Maniac, Spy & Angel of Glory's Rise, but I prefer the version with Underworld Cerberus, being less combo pieces and more resilient (slightly). I used to run 1 Bridge from below in my version in case they killed my Narc's (which is rare I should add)
I should add this deck very rarely wins on T1 or T2 IME, so you should have at least a couple turns to find a Therapy, provided they don't use their's to stop your end of turn discard.

It can be tricky to stop, but remember the deck runs few card draw options, and outside of tutors like Spoils of the Vault & Living Wish, they typically don't have too many ways of finding business when they need it.
If you can get off a therapy or two you should be able to win.
They need 3-4 mana to go off. Mana isn't the problem for Oops, even if they mull aggressively, but lack of draw can really slow them down.

If you're playing counter, countering their Summoner's Pact can not only stop their combo, next turn it can kill them right there.
If they give you the chance to cast Therapy, I wouldn't be worried about them putting down gravehate, I'd be targeting their combo.
In game 1, I'd target Spy/Informer.
In game 2/3, you're gonna have to guess/probe whether they're on the same plan, or on belcher and act accordingly.
One of the quirks of Oops, is that they don't need to run Phantasmagorian, they prefer to use Therapy on themselves for turfing combo pieces to the grave.
Because of this, it won't always be possible for them to target your hand.

Mindbreak Trap, Faerie Macabre, Surgical Extraction & Contagion are options, as Dread Return being sorcery-speed enables us to kill their Narc's or Macabre their Angel/Maniac/Azami/Cerberus or extract combo pieces.
Bear in mind though, some versions like the one I used to use, run Bridge from Below, so Contagions' effect could be very dependent on the list you're facing.

Does that help?

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Originally Posted by slave

If you're playing counter, countering their Summoner's Pact can not only stop their combo, next turn it can kill them right there.

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Wait, thats not true. A countered pact will not create the delayed triggered ability. Or am I misinformed?