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Gotcha ... wait, Crop Rotation is a viable option now? . . . that's actually pretty good with Rallier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
T1 G Source, Vet
T2 P.Tower-->Vet Trigger-->G Source and W Source (GGBBW Available)-->Crop Rotation (P.Tower-->V.Stronghold)-->Rallier (P.Tower)
Five mana if you need a X = 2 Deed, or the Two Towers synergy assembled.
I don't think Rallier is something we particularly care for. The most important cheap cards for us are our spells (CT/PtE/StP/AD), our most important permanents cost >2. Rallier help you with neither.
https://www.twitch.tv/mdhackbert
I did some streaming tonight of SneakFit. I played through a League. There is no audio except for the music that didn't get cut out.
I won Rd 1 against Miracles with both of us nearly timing out.
I then proceeded to lose 4 in a row against Elves, Bug Delver, Burn, and another Miracles.
I'm sure there were loads of misplays and bad lines. I never claimed to be an expert. :-)
If you watch, I hope you find it entertaining.
It's something a few of us have been trying. It's not the best card ever but it's still pretty good. It works great in conjunction with Cabal Therapy to clear the way to cast it.Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner
Agreed, I don't think the card does anything that we can't already do with Eternal Witness outside of a Pod list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Played 3 sloppy rounds yesterday. 2-1, lost to a 4 color cascade deck that was going bananas using Library, Bloodbraid Elf, & Shardless.
Second week in a row that I've lost to the guy on Cascade. Both weeks he's been able to close out the game on the back of a Creeing Tar Pit. I misplayed a bunch last night, so in the end it's my fault that I was in that position.
I was able to rattle off a win vs Omnitell. G1 I got to Show & Tell in a Grave Titan. G2 Kambal was just enough thanks to his Ancient Tombs.
Watched through quickly and typed up some thoughts for you. Hope they help!Quote:
Originally Posted by MDHackbert
elves:
Good reason to run pyroclasm (also delver). Definitely board in Thoughtseize, espeically on the play. OK to shave a Top vs Elves. Your goal vs any combo deck is to become a combo/control deck with all combo cards in the deck and all disruption cards in the deck.
Nothing you could've done g1 -- your draw just lined up poorly vs his, and your hand wasn't one that I would've mulled.
If you think you're going to swing with Vet on a given turn, always do that first and then do your things in main 2. In game two, you Zenith for Deathrite before swinging. If you swing and he blocks, you can instead Z@3 or play Deed with 1 mana open, both of which are better plays.
Game two you got pretty mana flooded -- personally I think I would've mulled your opening hand, but that doesn't change that you could've benefited from some better draw steps.
Vs BUG Delver:
Game 1. I like leading with Top, and you're fine with Explorer getting Dazed there. No land on top 3 is unfortunate. Agree with running out Zenith@1 -- you can expect it to get countered but you really need that shuffle, so the upside of it resolving is large enough to gamble it.
The turn you drew the Verdant, I would've fetched into Therapy on Gurmag Angler or Delver. Not sure why he wasted Volrath's, but...sure? Don't like the basic Swamp fetch. He used one Wasteland already and you can't be afraid of a second. Sometimes you just get double Wasted out of the game and it sucks, but with your hand's texture, it's not reasonable to play around the possibility of the second.
You're topping on upkeep too much. You also definitely should've taken the Thragtusk, not the third Therapy. Also, at the point at which you took said Therapy, you should've led with Therapy on Fatal Push and then played Explorer. It still probably would've gotten Decayed, but you didn't know about that.
I'd have played Thrag instead of Pulse. You need board presence -- if he trades, you're left with a 3/3 on open board, if he doesn't, you pulse next turn and swing in for 5 (well, before the TNN, anyway). Should name Decay on the flashback Therapy instead of Daze. If you draw something you're worried about him having Force for, you have another two Therapies in the graveyard. Decay hits a lot more relevant cards by itself than Daze does.
No reason to not play the Rec Sage the turn you drew the Sneak Attack. You want to sac it to Therapy to clear the way for Sneak next turn, so pay the mana forward now.
The fetch was bad. It put him from a 2-turn clock to a 1-turn clock. The fringe % of drawing a combo piece isn't worth losing another draw step, especially when you were guaranteed to resolve Sneak Attack due to the sandbagged Therapies.
I don't like boarding in the Golgari Charms. He doesn't have Young Pyro, so not sure what you're trying to hit. TNN, I guess? That seems worse than leaving the third Deed in. Thoughtseize and Carpet of Flowers are both much more relevant, and Surgical is always fine vs Delver if you have more things you want to board out (note that I've had problems finding room for Surgicals vs Delver as well, something that I'm still considering / looking into). You want to consider Surgical vs Delver because information is very important in the matchup, and Surgical gives you info while removing something that's problematic, making Gurmag cost more and/or countering Deathrite Shaman activations, and also gaining fringe value at hitting with Cabal Therapy vs Brainstorm -- lots of little things that add up nicely.
Losing the Sneak to Hymn is unfortunate odds. I probably would've just jammed an Empath the turn previous for a Bellower or a Titan. Wouldn't have really mattered because of the second Hymn, but you would've had another 1/1 at least.
That's a really aggressive Volrath's. You'll get more opportunities to get an Empath back later -- you need draw steps right now. It's not the worst thing I've ever seen, but it's not what I would've done. At least see what you draw and then evaluate -- a problem that I've noticed with your play in general is that you're trying to force being too proactive and as a result you're not being proactive enough. You lose a lot of mana advantage and tempo advantage by upkeeping instead of end-stepping. It shifts your entire game tempo into an awkward momentum which tends to line up poorly vs a lot of decks. There are certainly times where it's correct to upkeep do things, but not as much as you're currently doing (or from what I'm seeing in this video anyway)
Burn:
You're getting super punished for not winning the die roll. Sometimes that happens.
Don't like the Punishing Fire at all. You want to punish the Goblin Guide and then untap into Pulse on Swiftspears. If he has mono-gas in hand you're dead anyway.
As it turns out, he has mono-gas in hand and you're dead. Happens.
Board in Thoughtseize!!! If you Thoughtseize a Lightning Bolt, you've just gained 1 life. If you hit a Price of Progress, Fireblast, Goblin Guide, or etc, you gain a lot more than 1. Your /fail case/ is that you gain 1 life by casting it, and it can easily be better.
Why are you boarding out Vets? You're not going to be fast enough to Sneak Attack him without Vet, and you're ill equipped to play the fair game here because you don't have Rhinos. Golgari Charm doesn't do anything -- it kills exactly Sulfuric Vortex, and you already have Rec Sage +4 Zenith +2 Bellower for that.
Example on Thoughtseize: if you drew Thoughtseize instead of Golgari Charm, you would've taken the Lava Spike, let's say. You gain 1 from that exchange, and then 2 more from the Prowess triggers that he wouldn't have gotten. That's a full +3 -- one whole burn spell he doesn't cast!
Oh, he has Fireblast? If you get to take that, you gain +4 instead of +2 from the Charm, and that was a rare time where Charm was good because he had multiple creatures. Usually they only have one creature and a bunch of spells, which makes Charm even worse.
Miracles:
Why are you topping on your upkeep?!?!?
I like burning a Zenith for the Deathrite. Sets up for Sneak or makes him burn a removal spell / counter.
Don't you fucking Top on your upkeep. Don't you do it!
You did it.
If you'd just drawn naturally you would've been able to play Sneak, and he only has 5 in hand...which, if he has Force, then you Zenith for Eternal Witness to get back Sneak.
No reason to not take the Foothills imo. Keep making your land drops -- you can always tap your 2nd Top to draw Empath EoT to do nonsense.
Wait. Why are you Zenithing? I would've definitely played Sneak there, which would've gotten the Force anyway, but that's fine because we have the answer for it.
I would've gotten Inferno with the Empath trigger because then you threaten his Jace on a land drop. Emrakul is pretty far away from happening unless you Top into another Sneak.
Definitely would've EoT Decayed counterbalance before untapping into Thragtusk. No reason to not remove his interaction here. If he has maindeck Mentors (which is unlikely with the card we've seen so far), you have a Deed floating on top of your deck anyway to clean it up.
You definitely try to just win here. He has 1 in hand and if he doesn't have the counter, you win on the spot. You can't really afford to sit around here. There's a fairly large percent of playing this deck that involves slamming wincons and demanding that they have the answer. You win a lot of games because they just flat out don't have it. Sometimes they do, but you can't let the fear rule you.
You tapped badly for the Sneak Attack. You should've left double red mana open so you can Sneak Emrakul, then when he Karakases it, you can re-Sneak it.
This is a good example of why it's correct to not give them infinite time and just slam the Sneak asap and rely on recursion if they have the answer. You gave him so much time that he got to set up another Counterbalance with multiple fetches in play, which allowed him to CB your Sneak (which now he's just going to float the Jace and you're not going to resolve another Sneak without removal, but you're also being pressured by the Jace at this point).
Honestly, at this point, I'd just concede and go to game 2. You need to win two games in ~11 minutes, which is going to be a bit tricky. Not impossible, but tricky. This game is out of your reach at this point.
Punishing Fire is good here! It cleans up Cliques, Mentor poops, and Jaces very well. Therapy is much worse. I'd take out all 4 Therapies to leave in both Punishing Fires and also to bring in the two Surgicals. You want to look at taking out their StP, Forces, and Terminuses with them, because they're going to have to use those cards to stay alive and without them, they have a hard time living.
Again, you definitely slam a Sneak there. You have a backup copy, so you don't care if he has Counterspell. If he doesn't, then hey! Good times. If he has Force, that's even better because you 2-for-1 him and have a backup still.
Yeah, you're giving him way too much time again. Now he has a Mentor in play, so when he Forces he gets value out of it. Would've been much better if he'd burned that Force two turns ago when he didn't have a board presence. You're probably just going to get run over now.
Arian can you post your most recent sneak fit list? I'm gonna try it again this evening, thanks!
4 Veteran ExplorerQuote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Inferno Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Punishing Fire
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Sneak Attack
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Nissa, Vital Force
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
sb::
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pyroclasm
2 Slaughter Games
1 Tireless Tracker
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 To the Slaughter
Only notable change has been to cut the 2nd Deathrite in favor of the 2nd Nissa because the format has slowed down a little (and Nissa is pretty busted in the deck). You could very easily keep the 2nd Shaman instead of the 2nd Nissa -- it's not clear to me that this change is correct for the overall meta and might just be my local favoring the 2nd Nissa.
Thanks! I'll have some fun with it later
I would seriously reconsider streaming more if I could get such good critique each time. Arianrhod's a beast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
@MDHackbert, I've followed you and will try to tune in if I see that you are streaming. I've heard rumors of a few other Sneak Fitters online.
I haven't played a ton lately but have enjoyed Massacre Wurm in the main. Very convenient against the bug infestation - there are times you really need to kill some number of evasive threats, and the wurm takes out all DRS, TNN, Delver.
@Arianrhod Thanks for the raw honest feedback. I'll read it again while watching my own vid to line things up. Next time i sneak, I'll look into your list. I built this one before i had Nissas online.
@rubblekill Thanks for the follow! Sorry you came in at the end.
@square_two Thanks for the follow!
I think next stream may be a rhino build.
Sent from mobile.
I can't promise you'd get it every time, but I'm glad to provide thoughts like that when I'm able to. Just give me a vid and I'll go nuts.Quote:
Originally Posted by square_two
We may be entering a world (or have already done so) where Massacre Wurm is better than Inferno Titan. Inferno has done a ton of work for me, but there's an increasingly large number of decks where Sneaking Massacre is a flat kill, as opposed to just a large point swing. Inferno is still better at the fair game, but it may be that the deck is sufficiently tuned to fair decks in the main at this point (or at least mine with 2x Nissa, maindeck Primeval, and Meren as backup plans) that losing a few percentage points in some matchups to pick up a lot in others may be worth it.
Played three games with Nyx Fit today.
Game 1: Esper Stoneblade
He loses. He had a Jace active for like six turns, but there's only so many answers for Starfield/Sigarda/Doomwake/etc in a deck, and when he eventually slammed Supreme Verdict and a Vindicate for Starfield, I had Rector into Tower for second Starfield, into Doomwake - Living Plane.
Game 2 - UW Stoneblade
See above, only more so. Stoneblade is such a bye for us. Deed is absurd.
Game 3 - Lands
Lost game 1 to the traditional early Port into Waste into Marit Lage. If you ever get the opportunity, slamming Rector is plan A. After sideboard, it helps to mulligan for sideboard cards. Even if you have Therapy into Zenith into Rector, you'll get Ported and Wasted, lose Therapy to Bog, be unable to sac Veteran and never resolve any of your 4-drops because you didn't mulligan for hate and got fucked because you didn't find a Leyline or Humility.
To Ulysse95, Navsi, and other Nyx Fitters: I just wanted to say how appreciative I am for your work on this deck. Since sleeving it up, I've never had more fun playing Legacy, and I've benefited so much from your continued efforts to refine it. Thank you.
I piloted the deck to an abysmal 0-5-1 finish at Eternal Weekend in Columbus, Ohio a few months back. After my first few losses (to Eldrazi, Burn, and Storm), I began to be paired increasingly with other renegade decks I wasn't as sure how to combat, like blue Painter and 12-Post, and this only exacerbated my own frequent mistakes (especially with regard to sideboarding and mulliganing, my Achilles heels). However, I have no doubt as to this deck's power and potential in more capable hands. And I did at least get to live the dream against 12-Post: Humility, into Curse of Death's Hold, into Living Plane. My opponent sheepishly drew cards for a few turns—not because he had any outs, he said, but because he wanted to let the moment linger. What a swell guy.
In recent playtesting, I went 1-5 in games against Grixis Delver (a surprisingly tough match-up, I've found), and 3-0 in games against Infect (where Cabal Therapy and Deed showed up regularly for me). I've noticed a huge difference since including Sigarda as a Zenithable, resilient, game-ending threat. She's also terrific at stabilizing against fliers like Delver or Inkmoth.
As I've learned the deck, I've discovered several interactions you fellas may already know, but which bear repeating:
- If we have Starfield and Parallax Wave in play, and Parallax Wave is down to zero counters: at the beginning of our upkeep, both cards will trigger, and we can stack the triggers in the order we like. However, we must pick a target for the Starfield trigger when it is created; we cannot wait to resolve Parallax Wave's trigger before we choose the target for Starfield. Starfield is therefore unable to recur Parallax Wave on the very same turn it goes to the graveyard. This leaves us open to one turn of potential attack from our opponent's creatures.
- Living Plane and Nether Void cannot exist on the battlefield simultaneously, since they are both World Enchantments. Whichever enters the battlefield second will send the other to the graveyard.
- Nether Void functions as a triggered ability, not an alternate or additional cost (as per Trinisphere or Thalia). This means, in the first place, that we must remember our triggers, including for our own spells, or risk a judge's ire. It also means we can trick our opponents into paying for the triggers, in case they mistake the card for a Thalia effect. When they cast an uncounterable Abrupt Decay, Nether Void still triggers, and they are welcome to pay for that trigger if they so choose. It's worth indicating the trigger to see whether they pay for it, at least on the first attempt—sort of like casting Council's Judgment and asking the opponent, "Which card do you vote for?" If they move hastily and don't understand the card, they can really hurt themselves.
Speaking of Nether Void, mine should arrive in the mail tomorrow, and it will likely earn a permanent slot in my 75. Navsi, do you have any thoughts about in which match-ups Nether Void is useful, apart from the obvious Storm, Elves, and Burn? Do you bring (or leave) it in to slow down Delver decks that want to cast lots of cheap spells? How about Miracles, to thwart Top and Terminus (not that we care as much as most decks about Terminus)? And in which cases would you board it out?
For reference, my list is very much like the one in the new thread primer, but -1 Sensei's, +1 Sylvan Library main. My sideboard is 4 Leyline of the Void, 4 Leyline of Sanctity, 2 Carpet of Flowers, 1 Lost Legacy, 1 City of Solitude, 1 Seal of Primordium, 1 Humility, 1 Curse of Death's Hold.
So I have some video of me playing BUG fit on camera at a local tourney if you are interested. I also wouldn't mind some feed back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Edit: I am on camera round 1 btw.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/118276586
Also there was a point I G sun'd for 5 and realized my thragtusk was missing.
List for reference
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Baleful Strix
4 Brainstorm
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Nissa, Vital Force
3 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Force of Will
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Lost Legacy
1 To the Slaughter
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Caustic Caterpillar
1 Painful Truths
1 Golgari Charm
1 Surgical Extraction
@ Massacre Wurm, it is a very tempting card, but to be honest, both Primeval Titan and Inferno Titan don't care about TNN, you can attack your opponent right thru it. Inferno Titan also takes care of other creatures aswell, if you haven't already with PFire. If you need a life swing, just grab a Tusk.
Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk
Adam Paquette zen lands are great!Quote:
Originally Posted by mstephenson
Did you know what you were vs going in? Or blind? I like the aggressive Vets for g1 vs Miracles. They'll get in a bunch of damage unless he wants to waste removal or a Snapcaster. Just don't crack them!
He actually has a pretty weak hand. You're probably looking to flashback off of Strix to get something through the Force at this point. If he allows you to flashback unimpeded, I'd probably name the Snapcaster there, because it's his blue card for FoW and also doubles up on StP.
Saccing Explorer is pretty greedy here, but we'll see what you have to play off of it. You were basicaly priced into taking the Force because you cracked the Vet -- could've just played it slow.
On the flip side, Snap+Ponder is pretty aggressive from his end, so...cool?
Surprised he let the Jace resolve -- he Pondered a Force to the top but may have not had a blue, I guess? I can't see the hands very well. Oh, Mentor. He's planning on just going wide and killing it (and/or you).
I like the Deed into E.Wit line. Unfortunately you're going to lose your Jace, but Jace is an okay trade for basically all of his cards.
I don't think I would've taken the hit from his board to crack on endstep. He has few cards in hand, if he has like a Counterbalance or something, it'll be naked -- same with another Mentor. You know he has at least a StP in his hand, which is not threatening. With maindeck Mentor it's unlikely he has maindeck Cliques, but I'd still be a little worried about your life total at this point -- he could easily set up Entreat via Brainstorm or drawing a Top and oops you at this point.
Ah, there's the Zenith for 5. Surprised Thrag's not in for game 1, I assumed that would be a sideboard derp. Did you decline Meren's trigger? I didn't see you put anything into your hand on endstep.
Not entirely sure why your opponent isn't blind Counterbalancing, but...sure. I'm guessing you declared Deed@2 and he scooped to save time? Probably wise, but a bit unexpected.
G2:
Containment Priest isn't surprising to see -- a lot of Miracles players will board them in because they don't have a ton of other relevant things to bring in, and the marginal hope of clipping a Zenith with it is usually good enough for them. Here, he can ambush viper Jaces, which is also attractive.
The follow-up Mentor is why I probably wouldn't have Pushed the Priest, unless you were planning on Zenithing the following turn. Deluge is a fine answer there, although it would've been nice to hit both Priest and Mentor. Opponent may not have extended that far, though, not sure. Ah, you do have a Zenith in hand. Second Priest is brutal and unexpected, I would've played into that as well.
They just updated that apparently your opponent won game 1. Did he Counterbalance the Deed and just....didn't show the camera? Or something? Confused.
I feel like this is a danger of the Miracles decks with maindeck Mentors. The pilots who choose those specific builds tend to play their deck more like a top-heavy tempo deck than an actual control deck, and most of them are bad at pivoting. More saying that as something to keep in mind about the mindset of these players and how they'll likely sequence/use their cards. Like the EoT Snap+Brainstorm just to pressure your life total -- not saying it's incorrect by any stretch, but most Miracles players aren't going to do that. Maindeck Mentor players are more likely to, from what I've seen. I can't see your hand so I don't know what you could be doing differently, really...you seem pretty flooded though.
Honestly I would almost treat maindeck Mentor miracles players more like Stoneblade (specifically UW Stoneblade) than "miracles." He has a decent amount of pressure, a lot of interaction, and a couple of big scary threats (planeswalkers etc).
Big fight over Jace. Didn't expect you to have your own Forces, that's kind of sweet. To the Slaughter, trying to do the lord's work. He Brainstormed into double Force, though...
If you can hold out here, you should be able to stabilize soon. He's low on resources and you have a lot of cards in hand I think.
Now you're having the problem that BUG Fits always seem to have -- you're ahead in cards and resources but can't slam the door.
Regrowing Clique seems a lot worse than Deed@2 into +1 smack him to 3 (if he has StP you gain 5 and still threaten ult which seems great when you're at 2 -- like, StP is actively good for you atm).
If you'd +'d Nissa last turn you'd be able to -3 to regrow Deed this turn to clean up the Mentor :(
But apparently you win? Cool? I'm seriously missing some things that are going on here.
G3:
I skipped ahead a little to make sure there wasn't a G3, and then there was a G3, so I missed a little of the game early on.
...and I'm guessing that you ended in a draw?
------------------------------
List looks pretty great actually, although I'm still of the opinion that we're a BUG Sigarda equivalent away from this style of deck being actually very good. True-Name kind of works but isn't Zenithable...we really need a Zenithable non-white hexproof guy with evasion.
I'm not sure how I feel about your sideboard, but that's mostly because of some of the 1-ofs like Caterpillar (can't be better than Rec Sage) and Golgari Charm (which I kind of just dislike in general). Conceptually I like being able to have Force of Will + Lost Legacy and a couple of other things to clean up (Clique, Fluster, etc). I'm actually a little surprised that you boarded in the Forces looking at your board.
Wouldn't this be better?:
-4 Vet
-4 Therapy
+3 Lost Legacy
+1 To the Slaughter
+1 Painful Truths
+1 Clique
+1 Caterpillar
+1 Deluge
Looks like the main threats are 2 Jace, 2 Nissa, and Thragtusk? Not sure how I'd consider Meren alone as a threat. That does seem pretty light. Maybe there is room for a Primeval Titan? Getting Stronghold in play with Strixes available sounds pretty great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
I'm planning on taking the Dragon Bug/4c Fit with me to my weekly local tomorrow (if it actually fires, people here are finicky). I love the idea of a playset of Intuition. Grab 3 Jace, Loam/land/Raven's Crime, or Haven/Dragon/Loam or Ugin which seems very flexible. Threats there are 3 Jace, 1 Nissa, 1 Ugin, 1 Ob Nixilis (I've seen Stryfo online with both Ob Nix ult and Nissa ult, it is hilarious), 2 Dragonlords. And full playset of DRS which can help speed up the clock if we are in a situation of being ahead on resources/board.
Skipped out on last weeks Legacy, may skip on it this week too. Just not having fun in the current local meta. Last Thursday it was apparently 3 Dredge, 3 Storm, 2 Eldrazi.
Been playing pickup games where I can though. Strangleroot Geist is performing great. A couple times I wish I still had Steve in the deck but overall it hasn't been a big deal.
Crop Rotation is performing great. At this point I think I'm going to declare that particular experiment over and firmly recommend the card. The actual land package you want is still up for debate but Crop Rotation improves your matchups across the board. The card does everything.
Very happy with my current build, but I'm also considering something more combo oriented with G1 Dark Depths and more Deeds. I haven't figured out the rest of the deck yet though. I'm finding 1 Deed to be too few, I think 2 is the right number for SE. Granted, I do have an extra in my sideboard for the times I want it.
Are you running CR in the main now? I had thought that you'd shifted it to your side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
I've always liked Sylvan Safekeeper / Titania. Those two alongside CR and maybe a Cradle seems like Christmasland.
I run 2 main 1 side. When I move to more land oriented SB plans like bringing in Karakas or using DD I bring in the extra. Having a couple copies MB is nice though since it makes your opening hands more explosive.Quote:
Originally Posted by amppyou
Hello Nic Fit Veterans (see what I did there?)
I am happy to report that I got a 5-0 tonight with a straight BG version of this deck, that I built using some inspiration from this thread and little bit of theorycrafting. Yesterday I had a 4-1 league in the morning and a 1-3 drop in the afternoon/evening. I usually play relatively unfair decks so this was me branching out a bit. You guys all seem like fun-loving people so I'm just going to share my decklist and some thoughts on the deck:
Decklist:
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
3 Swamp
4 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Treetop Village (I like this because it can kill Jace, the Mind Sculptor from Crop Rotation)
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Tireless Tracker (weakest slot in the maindeck IMO)
1 Master of the Wild Hunt (destroys BUG decks and Delver decks, good complement to Thrun)
1 Thrun, the Last Troll (good for trolling people :D )
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Nissa, Vital Force (Quite honestly, this is the best reason to ramp both players. I am astounded by how powerful this card has been)
3 Sensei's Divining Top (would not play less than 3, I could see playing a 4th)
2 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Crop Rotation
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
SB:
2 Surgical Extraction (necessary)
4 Sphere of Resistance (necessary)
2 Carpet of Flowers (necessary)
2 Duress (necessary)
2 Choke (seems ok?)
1 Pithing Needle
1 Garruk Relentless (is this necessary? Would I rather have another card for Miracles / combo?)
1 Thragtusk (burn? considering Obstinate Baloth)
There are some slots that I am less sure of, such as Tireless Tracker and some of the sideboard. However, I have been impressed with the Crop Rotation package - it usually finds Phyrexian Tower to super-ramp with Veteran Explorer into Nissa or Green Sun for one of my stupid 4 CMC guys. Nissa has blown me away every time I cast it - tomorrow morning I will record a Youtube video of the best Nissa usage I have ever dreamed of. I would play 3, but legend rule... :(
Thrun is very hard to answer, particularly with Karakas. Master of the Wild Hunt cleans up board states and makes up for having fewer creatures in the deck in general.
I'm pretty sure Surgical Extraction is necessary in the sideboard, which makes me want to play more discard in the sideboard also, even spreading to 2 Thoughtseize maindeck.
Obviously most of this information is obvious for you guys because you've played it more than I have. I would love to hear some input into my choices, particularly with my reducing the curve considerably to top off at 4 CMC creatures and 2 Nissas for the most part. I cut Sylvan Library after the 1st league because it doesn't interact well with Deed.
I brought Stryfo's Dragon Fit to my local tonight (see top of page 7 for reference). We had 14 players I believe, for 4 rounds, and I was able to go undefeated. Used his exact main except for a Trop Island instead of U Sea since I didn't have one available. Really need to trade for one though, that land is pretty huge to rounding out the manabase. My side was pretty close to his current online list (2 Lost Legacy to replace Flusterstorm and Glen Elendra, 2nd Thoughtseize in place of Tabernacle).
Round 1 - Infect
Game 1 I have 3 Cabal Therapies plus a Strix in my opener...he mulls and I'm able to shred his hand quickly since he had double Invigorate and draws a second Blossoming Defence. Jace comes down not much longer and he scoops since he has nothing available except a single Hierarch.
Game 2 I flood very heavily while he gets 2 Hierarchs out and goes unimpeded. Eventually I topdeck Raven's Crime and make him discard 3 times that turn, but it is not enough to close out the game with my Deathrites. Didn't see much besides lands :/ But I also topdecked a Therapy and named very poorly right before I died, so there's that.
Game 3 Again Therapies help take out his hand of double Glistener. He has Surgical but misses using it early, and I get two more Therapies due to it. Strix comes down and again does fabulous blocking duty. Intution gets pierced but allows for followup Jace and then Deed. Brainstorming gets me another Deed and Decay so I'm pretty set and he scoops.
Gawd Strix is so good.
Round 2 - Pox
Game 1 I get out an early Deathrite which eats an edict, and then a 2nd, and my notes show opp at 18DRS, 16DRS, 14DRS, 12DRS...you get the idea. Intuition for lands and Loam is great to seal the deal.
Game 2 was very close since he had two early factories and a Crucible. I get down to 10 and get out Ob Nixilis. Next few turns are careful with me using Pulse to gain life, draw some cards with Ob Nix, then get Garruk out which has a token and himself save me some more life. Intuition for Loam+Haven later and I'm able to put Ojutai on the board (at which point I'm dead to an edict effect), Deed comes down which is more insurance, then later I have the mana to crack Haven and play Dromoka, and ult Ob Nix which seals it. He shows me a hand of 3 Urborg which is sad - Liliana at any point would have easiliy given him the win there.
Round 3 - BR Reanimator
Game 1 This guy is a little inexperienced with the deck. He puts Tidespout into play T1 I believe, but uses his entire hand to do it. I get out land, DRS. He topdecks a land (yay!), and I get out my second land. His turn I take another hit and cast Intuition, picking 3 Jaces to hopefully bounce the thing. For some reason he doesn't cast his Entomb at any time to bounce my land or DRS, so I get to cast Jace (which he decides to bounce...). He scoops shortly after due to DRS and Jace available while he doesn't have anything in hand.
Game 2 I'm able to strip his Animate Deads from the deck, but he gets out a Grisel anyway due to Reanimate. I don't have too many draws, but he goes to 2 to draw cards. I topdeck a Lost Legacy and then accidentally name Entomb instead of Exhume (meant to say Exhume). Next turn he swings, draws, and then uses 2 Exhumes to get more stuff into play :(
Game 3 I get a nice Therapy hit naming Entomb, and he struggles to put any fatty into his yard for the rest of the game. I have the time to land Strix, DRS and then Ob Nix. He Reanimates my Ojutai but is dead to DRS drains the following turn.
Round 4 - Lands
Game 1 He has the nut Exploration, Gamble for Loam, Ports etc which locks me out. I kept a bad 7 with 2 Jace, 1 Top, couple poor lands.
Game 2 He has an early Marit Lage from a natural Stage + crop rotation. I have played 2 Strixes...they both end up chump blocking and I even waste a Deed to kill his only Mox Diamond to prevent my second Strix from being PFired. My last turn available I topdeck To the Slaughter and he scoops after I cast it and then Surgical the Depths.
Game 3 Was long and grindy, he has Loam and PFire but no Exploration. My own Loam shows up early and I'm able to get light use out of it with a couple Verdant Catacombs. My two early Vets are just attacking in each turn, and I manage to find To the Slaughter right as he finds Depths. That card has beaten the guy multiple times and I probably didn't even need to have it in hand, just bluff keeping black mana open...anyway I keep getting damage in with Vets and a Strix, using Jace and DRS to eat up his PFires. Eventually he gets to 3 and has to kill my Vets, which gives me the mana I needed to cast Ugin in hand to finish it. He should have just made the token way earlier, forced the Slaughter out of my hand, and then Loam the depths back and try again...he told me afterward that he was afraid that I had both Slaughter and Surgical early on (it wasn't until very late that I Intuitioned for 3 Surgicals...) He also could have been more aggressive with his Wastelands but allowed me instead to keep 2-3 duals available.
Deck seems solid. Intuition is simply outstanding and I did not miss Green Sun's Zenith at all. The walkers provide plenty of power and the Intution/Loam/Haven/Dragons grind plan is very flexible. I look forward to further testing with it. Sorry if the game details seems a bit unfocused or rushed - I try to scribble some general notes as I can but this was my first time playing the list and I needed to concentrate.
Awesome list. Have you thought about adding 5+ CMC creature to close out games now with Fatal Push being a thing?Quote:
Originally Posted by DNSolver
Glad to hear BG working out for others. Our lists are similar in a lot of ways, and different in others. I completely agree with your assessment of Nissa but I think you're wrong about Tracker. I went for more of a CA focused build and Tracker has been great. I play two main in addition to Bobs. Your curve is slightly higher than mine, but Bob would still work in it. With only 11 creatures though I wonder if GSZ is what you want.Quote:
Originally Posted by DNSolver
At what point, if you add dark confidants and lower your curve, aren't you ruining the entire reason veteran explorer is in the deck?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
My opinion has always bee veteran explorer/cabal therapy into Deed into "insert recursion engine or overcosted card advantage engine/unanswerable threat".
I read the NicFit posts regularly and I think it is the better BG home for GSZ as you don't want to run 4x fatties but need to be able to answer or trump as many strategies as possible. I have been playing BG with DRS over Veteran Explorer and I think I have the better home for Dark Confidant and Tracker with the lower CC and greater velocity off the start.
I do really love your use of crop rotation and I will experiment with it after my current obsession, Noxious Revival, dies down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
Probably at the point where I'm not using the ramp. I still play a bunch of 5 cost cards if you include GSZ for X=4. The difference is that I have a lower curve, so when the acceleration plan doesn't happen, I can still do things. When the mana ramp works I get to do more things rather than bigger ones.
This is basically Brael's concept summed up. Rather than invest his mana into several big things, he would rather use his mana to generate multiple smaller things. Just a slightly different philosophy -- certainly no less valid. I've wanted to look into something similar myself, as a backup plan for when/if Top gets banned. At that point, I think that the best versions of the deck will have lower curves with Night's Whispers and other card draw options (Courser's stock probably goes way up, as well) -- rather than relying on Top's filtering to find the right mix of land, removal, and bomb, we'll need to just draw as many cards as possible and leverage our mana advantage across multiple play per turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Hi all,
Lately, I have been impressed with Tireless Tracker in my Lands sb, and was looking for a good shell to play her maindeck. I played BG Nic Fit a long time ago, and decided to build this shell around her.
I'm planning to take the following to the next small tournament coming week:
Creatures (17)
1 Thragtusk
1 Eternal Witness
1 Wall of Blossom
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Primeval Titan
3 Tireless Tracker
4 Veteran Explorer
Spells (22)
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
Lands (21)
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Windswept Heath
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Bayou
3 Swamp
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Forest
I think you guys can see where I'm getting at: take full advantage of TT, and also play the 'basic Nic Fit Game'.
The list is far from ideal, though, as I'm still missing some cards:
- Meren of Clan Nel Toth replacing Thragtusk (will take a slot in the sb) or Wickerbough Elder (will be replaced with Reclamation Sage in the sb)
- Sakura-Tribe Elder replacing a Wall of Blossom (I think, because of the better synergy with Tireless Tracker)
- Reclamation Sage (if I'm to swap Wickerbough Elder) in the sb.
- Ulvenwald Hydra replacing one Primeval Titan, as the big bomb.
I'm also considering dropping the 3rd SDT for a 4th Abrupt Decay. Also, maybe I should drop the Undiscovered Paradise, but I like it so far (positive results after testing -being able to make a landdrop each turn-, but probably too cute)
I think this is probably blasphemy, but Pernicious Deed and Clue-tokens aren't exactly synergy. Brainfart: dropping both in favor of the 4th Abrupt Decay, and 4th Fatal Push (and keeping the 3rd SDT in the process). PD would have some slots in the sb, though. I do like the possibility to reset the board. What do you guys think?
About Fatal Push: getting Revolt is pretty easy. Crack a Fetch or Clue-token, return Undiscovered Paradise, draw a card with SDT, use Pernicious Deed, or sac a Veteran Explorer, it all works.
I'm also not sure about the sb. Perhaps you guys have some input?
So, don't hold back: is the list too cute? Still going to test it 'live', though (even though the list isn't perfect) :smile:
Primeval 2 is better than Ulvenwald -- Ulvenwald not having evasion or protection is a deal-breaker. Just being huge isn't good enough. Not running Nissa VF in this type of deck, in particular, seems criminal. Add Nissas, and if you still feel like you need more wincons, consider splashing in a Kessig Wolf Run or a Sigarda (Kessig is easier but loses to Wasteland or Ghost Quarter).Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
Undiscovered Paradise seems amazing in this deck and I'd definitely leave it in for a couple tournaments before re-evaluating. That's some pretty cool tech.
I'd want to test out Titania, Protector of Argoth and as the above poster said Nissa. You could also think about more utility lands and maybe even DD combo. Check out Brael's land config.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
Hi! I'm kind of new to legacy (new to playing it, but I've followed it for quite a while) and I've been building up a pseudo-budget (no duals) Nic Fit BUG deck and I'd like to share it to get some thoughts and advice...
Lands (22)
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacomb
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
1 Treetop Village
2 Wasteland
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Thespian Stage
1 Dark Depths
Creatures (12)
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Polukranos, World Eater
1 Thragtusk
1 The Gitrog Monster
1 Primeval Titan
Other spells (26)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Brainstorm
2 Intuition
4 Crop Rotation
1 Life from the Loam
I was previously running Hymn to Tourach instead of Crop Rotation and I liked the possibility of flashing back Cabal Therapy on turn 2 and go fetch two swamps into Hymn to Tourach and rip the opponent's hand apart but the deck felt like it needed help closing games so I decided to emphasize on the Dark Depths combo adding Crop Rotation (I also read on the primer that Hymn wasn't recommended to not overextend discard spells and make the deck a more powerful topdecker).
I was happy to come here and see @DNSolver trying Crop Rotation out too, though with more grindy targets. Has anoyne tried running the Dark Depths combo in Nic Fit before? I love having Primeval Titan in the deck so if the game drags on I can go and Zenith him and grab the two lands. The intuition pack lets me go and fetch the combo pretty early and if need be you can pile 3 Cabal Therapies and be done with their hand. I remember reading some discussion about Intuition, but can't find it now...
Sideboard is still a work in progress but I will probably be running some number of Vendilion Clique and mostly anti-combo cards as it seems that the deck is powerful against fair strategies.
Feedback would be appreciated! :D
I forgot about Nissa VF, thanks for reminding me :smile: Will probably replace the 3rd SDT for one Nissa, and one in the sb. I will keep UP in, it's definitly worth the slot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Titiana is a 5cmc worth to consider. I'm not to fond of DD-combo in this deck, although I can see running both DD and TS as a one-of in my sb (also some nice synergy with Titiana). About utility-lands: perhaps a Urborg to make the fetchland tap for mana?Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Blood
Check out the primer, there's a variant called SE Fit that we came up with about a year ago that I've been playing. In particular, the GB builds have been using Crop Rotation with Dark Depths as a sideboard plan. Others have tried to combo with just one of each card and a Primeval Titan to fetch both, my plan has been a little different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lueseto
Unless you already have the Depths though, I wouldn't worry too much about this plan. The biggest upgrade you can make for your deck is Bayou's so I would put your budget towards that first.
Depths combo has been tried a few times, the general consensus is that it's okay but better in a deck that can afford to play Loam (and if you go further down that route, you're probably better off just playing a dedicated Loam deck). The current intuition/rotation builds look reasonable, though, but the above was the consensus after the previous rounds of testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lueseto
That's why DD isn't my plan A, it's a SB plan against decks where you don't have time to play a fair game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
DD is good with Crop Rotation. I'm not a fan of it with Primeval Titan though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
The utility package I prefer with Crop Rotation is:
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog
And in the SB
1 Karakas
3 Dark Depths
2 Thespian's Stage
If you search back you can find some SB plans I made for everything. The MB Bojuka Bog has been particularly good, because it has freed me from Scavenging Ooze in favor of a more aggressive 2 drop.
Thanks for the quick replies!!
And what are your thoughts on Polukranos as a Zenitheable fatty that can wipe small creatures?
Right now, with the upcoming of Fatal Push, I am starting to doubt of it's viabilty more and more... Do you think that this deck doesn't need Zenitheable removal being that I'm running 3 Deeds and 3 Decays? Are there any better green creatures that perform a similar role? I've seen Master of the Wild Hunt, but Polukranos doesn't die to Lightning Bolt and packs quite a punch while Master seems grindier and slower...
Dies to removal is quite a lackluster argument against Master as Polukranos monstrous trigger on the stack + removal from opponent is a more massive blowout. You have to weight the merits of both and what you want the creature to do. IMHO Master is leagues better as he snowballs out of control while Polukranos is just a dumb fatty with a 1 shot removal effect that is extremely mana taxing (not to mention he sucks at removing Baleful Strix which is flying everywhere).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lueseto
The best Zenithable removal IMHO is Huntmaster at 4cc.
5 CMC creature answered by Lightning Bolt. Danger Of Cool Things, TM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto